Under estimating the enemy is the biggest mistake in war. As Kenyans push their failed government into retaking Migingo island from Uganda’s military, it is important to reflect on the strengths of the enemy.
Ready for combat: a Ugandan soldier
Kenyans still believe that today’s Ugandan military is the same rag-tag guerrilla force defeated by Administration Police in Western Kenya back in the 1980s. The reality is very different.
The Uganda Peoples Defence Forces (UPDF) is a battle-hardened outfit of at least 45,000 soldiers well armed with artillery, tanks and combat aircraft. The Kenyan military consists of roughly the same number of personnel spread out across the Army, Navy and Airforce but without combat experience.
Since its birth as the National Resistance Army, the UPDF has engaged in fierce warfare within and outside Uganda. UPDF has put down almost all the armed groups that roamed Uganda after the overthrow of Idi Amin in 1979. At the moment, war is raging against Joseph Kony’s Lords Resistance Army (LRA) but the bulk of the fighting is in the Democratic Republic of Congo after the UPDF chased Kony away from northern Uganda and Southern Sudan.
The UPDF has fought in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo where it vanquished rebels of the Allied Democratic Front (ADF). However, the UPDF was sucked into the Congo wars where the United Nations accuses them of looting Congo’s abundant minerals and timber. At the moment, the Congolese Army (FARDC) has joined the UPDF in a joint operation against the LRA. UPDF aircraft have fired explosives into suspected LRA camps though the rebels had already deserted the outposts.
UPDF is part of the African Union Mission to Somalia (AMISOM) where, together with Burundian soldiers, they have helped sustain the Transitional Federal Government against the onslaught of insurgents. In Iraq, retired UPDF soldiers have gotten jobs as security officers in the US led coalition.
In contrast, the Kenyan military has not engaged in major combat operations since the Shifta Wars of the 1960s – 1970s. Shiftas were bandits fighting for the secession of the Somali-dominated North Eastern Province. Since then, there has not been any rebel activity in Kenya until the Sabaot Land Defence Force emerged in 2006.
Kenya Army trucks crossing a flooded river. Picture by the US Army.
Operations against the Sabaot Land Defence Force (SLDF) were the first counter-insurgency experience for Kenya’s military since the Shifta Wars. However, the conduct of the Army certainly did not win hearts and minds for the government. The operation was so ruthless that accusations of human rights abuses are rife. People were abducted from homes and tortured because of mere allegations of supporting SLDF.
The Kenya Army dubbed its successful anti-SLDF campaign “Operation Okoa Maisha” (Operation Save Lives) but locals have described it as “Operation Haribu Maisha Kabisa” (Operation Destroy Lives). It is said that so many men disappeared that Mount Elgon District is now dominated by women, who are either widows or caregivers to broken men.
Back in the 1980s, the Administration Police fought back several incursions by Ugandan soldiers. This time though, Kenya’s armed forces may not be up to the task. Infact, the annexation of Migingo Island and the growth of piracy on the Indian Ocean are proof that all is not well with our national defences.
Recruitment into the forces is marred by corruption and political interference, meaning that the calibre of recruits is very low. Qualified candidates are shunted aside in favour of those willing to pay hefty bribes to recruiting officers. Even after joining the forces, promotions in the hierarchy are heavily influenced by corruption and ethnicity.
The situation in the police and prisons services is reportedly worse than in the military. An investigation into Kenya Prisons found that female officers had to sleep with senior bosses in order to get promotions. In the Kenya Police, traffic police offices collect bribes from drivers in order to fulfill a daily quota imposed by their supervisors. Those who fail to deliver their targets are transferred to less lucrative postings in the rural areas.
Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni has sent the UPDF to all of Uganda’s neighbours except Tanzania. Museveni is a calculating, former rebel leader who exploits weaknesses in his neighbours to expand Uganda’s influence. With Kenyans divided on ethnic lines and ruled by corrupt leaders, Museveni must have realized that this is the best time to strike.
By occupying the small island of Migingo, Museveni was testing Kenya’s political and military defences. Next time, the catch will be bigger and it will be too late for Kenya to defend itself.
Filed under: Analysis, Politics | Tagged: administration police, corruption, kampala, kenya, Kenya Army, lake victoria, Lords Resistance Army, LRA, migingo, mwai kibaki, nairobi, Uganda, uganda peoples defence forces, UPDF, yoweri museveni |
The Nairobi Chronicle 
We in Uganda do not see ourselves going to war with Kenya. We have much to lose even though am sure we would beat you black and blue. By the way the Kenya army is only 24,000 (CIA world fact book)
The c.i.a world fact book you quoted is as ancient as the T55s and other weapons in U.P.D.F inventory.The new fact book puts kenyan forces at 45,000.Besides,kenya also boosts 32,000 combat trained A.Ps police who are the first responders to any threat.They are the ones that beat uganda in late 1980s and ill tell you nothing has changed since.The same 32,000 police will beat 60,000 uganda army infantry just as they did then.we in kenya knows that in today battle field,what wins wars is not the number of infantry men.instead it is the lethality and efficiency of the troops which is attained through the best training and equipment.thas why we chose to deploy a small highly trained, equiped and well financed force that is second to none.without being guided by my stomach,i will tell you here and now that our well thought off offensive and defensive strategies if unloaded against our brothers in uganda will amount to total annilation of our brothers.let me give you some real talk:uganda has fought Kony bandis for 20 + years to no success.Kony boys are gumboot thugs poorly financed and not equiped at all.Kenya has wiped out such outfits in hours.Uganda has no airforce and the few migs they received from libya bear no impact against the best airforce in east and central africa (Kenya).We in kenyan forces do not need our armor to face ancient uganda t55s and t62s.our 50 air carvary battalion was constituted in response to influx of soviet tanks in this region.the 35 well armed gunships will in no more than 72 hours clear this museum modules.it was just declassified that u.p.d.f had to call kenyan experts to help them dis-arm a bomb that they mistakenly armed…………..and these are the inexperienced bandits we are supposed to face?it also got declassifed that kenyan jets have violated ugandan airspace over and over to test their air defences and by the time they notice anything on the rader the jets are long gone.i urge you not to feed your ignorance and lack of knowledge.we in the department of defence knows that uganda is like a house of glass.we see right inside and a stone can bring it down. our highly classified covert operation gives us an edge about what is happening right in ugandan command and control network. its a sad state of affairs for those without knowledge to talk of millitary matters.Mu7 and kibaki are old guards who sniff each thers behind and wag their political tails without biting.This means that kibaki will let mu7 occupy migingo and in turn come to his rescue if need be.I promise you if mu7 behaved the same way with moi,the likes of spartan would be in moi torture chambers right in kampala.Or for that matter if mu7 behaves the same in future!
the ugandans should ask themselves this question,”do they have the navy?,if they have,it trains its officers in L.victoria which is smaller when compared to the indian ocean,where the mighty kenya navy normally trains.so,the kenyan navy can capture migingo island in less than two hrs.
remember the american force in somalia.
Uganda recently acquired Su-30 which is a much better plane than the F-5s we fly. Uganda also has a fleet of Mig 21 and Mig 23 that is operational and which the pilots have flown for some time to be fairly comfortable with.
However Kenya would hold a slight advantage in pilot training case in point Vietnam air force Vs the Big US of A, a fact not well known but the rag tag Vietnamese lost far less aircraft(about 20) while the US had more than 100 shot out of the sky by the Vietnamese.
Our Navy would not be of much help as the time we would take to deploy any meaningful NAVAL support the Ugandans would be across the Lake having tea in Kisumu.
Our Land forces would also hold sway with the better T-72 MBT(if they were truly ours) compared to Uganda MBT the T-55,Even our ancient Vicker were a better performer than the T-55. The APC’s sector would be more in Kenya’s favor as would the Attack Helicopter sector read Mil 28’s(the Russians answer to the Apache AH64) which Kenya has.
However to win a war with Uganda we have to fight it away from the battle field, Kenya needs to show the Ugandans how much they stand to suffer if this escalates.
Our Military particularly The Air force need to be upgraded, we can carry out upgrades on the Avionics and wings of the F-5 at about 2M USD per aircraft. Also Kenya should consider purchasing affordable 4th generation fighters from China e.g the j-17 which range as low as 10M USD (compared to the Ugandan Su-30 that go for 30M USD each) rather than buying any more second hand stuff from the middle east.
It is embarrassing that East Africa’s Largest economy is so closely matched military wise to our neighbors who have had years of struggle, Ask the Ethiopians who suddenly became a landlocked country the importance of a capable, well equipped and trained military.
Your level of knowledge and understanding is gauged by the content of your writing. Your content is very low on substance and all I can see in it is a good measure of immaturity, childishness and naivety on the topic you tried to write about.
Hi am a Kenyan who greatly disagree with this report. Kenya armed forces training is one of the best in the world and Ugandans will never in a 10000000000000 years defeat Kenyans……..by the way we are not 24000 we are 60000 and getting stronger.
some of these countries actually rely on Kenya for their survival and an engagement in war with us will close their lifeline. Uganda can not survive for one month if we close the rail, road and air links, without even firing an air borne missile. For every body’s info, Kenya’s security is based on the military, the GSU and the AP. these are more than 120000 very well trained soldiers. You can not compare them with the illitrate, indisciplined updf who will turn to looting immediately they leave their baracks. Now shut the war mongering mouth and build on your democratic institutions and replace overdue leaders who divert attention to the battle fields only to hound the opposition and extend, consolidate their grip on power.
listen how many trained personnel Kenya has including the paramilitary police who have fend off Ugandan bandit soldiers in the past!So when you talk of 24000 u talking about bull shit that you spent for breakfast i heard in Uganda breakfast costs 24,000.
24,000 is how much breakfast costs in uganda our army has 45,000 + active personal plus 48,000 plus A.P police who are the first line of defense and in the past have chased u.p.d.f bandits right into Nakasero uganda.Listen to this link.
we Kenyans love the Ugandan people, but we abhor Museveni and so do the Ugandans.However we tell you like we told the Alshabaab cowards running scared from the Kenyan defence force, always running their mouth with nothing to show-if its war you want- BRING IT.We train Ugandan soldiers, these guys even go to war on foot. wake up, this is not soccer.
ever since Kenyan forces went to Somalia, they stopped advancing. WHY? scared boys
Kenyans talk alot. Let them just cross to Migingo and see fire
If gum booted updf failed to make a step out of mogadishu they also failed to defeat joseph konyi therefore the updf rebels can never defeat KDF in 100 years they pretend to be what they are not
look at UDF loses in Somalia. compare with KDF loses!!!!! UDF has lost almost 10 times the number of soldiers during the same period of time. Why??? even your camps are taken over by rag tat Alshabab.
UDF is no match to KDF. Check an independent analysis of 10 best armies in AFRICA and you will see KDF listed and UDF is NOT
true to the point..
Years of embezzlement of public funds have now resulted in total helplessness…a point where greed and corrution in the people entrusted to run the country means our national security is at stake…A country of economic scale like Kenya is supposed to be armed with at leat 500 tanks and 100 fighter Jets…We are very unsafe currently…extremenly unsafe….we dont have equipment to wage a desicive war…….Nobody should lie to kenyans that the army is secretive and purchases are done secretely…BIG LIE….military and Govt men have been eating the money….I am from Eldoret region and I can tell from the way the barrack there is so dilipated and Ugly that money meant for our security is beeing eaten by some big men somewhere in the army and Govt and endangering the country………Now Museveni…who Is very intelligent has seen that Kenya is realy weak…..and he has decided to abuse us….for sure..it is NOT about the Island or the fish…IT IS STRATEGIC…HE HAS A MISSION…..HE IS INTIMIDATING us..and he knows that our military is at the weakest…….Kianga and his cronies just want to stay in Runda and have the good life….smooching their women…..they are scared to hear gunfire and see blood……that why they call a press conference and say that a terriotorial issue is work of map makers…….
It is on notice that Museveni once said that some countries are afraid of hearing the word “Army” ..apparently he was reffering to kenya…
Its Just too bad…..Kenyans are so annoyed to be Insulted and with an Army that can do nothing…They paid to protect us even against Satan Himself!!!
Now..About our equipment…is it Not a shame that the attack aircraft that we have was last purchased in the 70’s….Big shame…..to those in position of responsibility…Are u guys serious about our security???
The 76 tanks that we have are nothing but old Junk….who will save us from this mess….what if Uganda actualy attacks…..
wewe mseya, countries buy weapons with specific goals in mind. When we stick with our Vickers MK3 tanks it is because we don’t see any opposing armour worthy of our upgrade. do you know waht is happening in Angola? this people have over 400 combat jets. fewer than 30 are operational. what would we do with 100 combat jets when the likes of Uganda have only 4 combat jets? How will we maintain, arm and train pilots for them? More hardware doesn’t mean instant victory, ask the Libyans vis-a-vis chadian rebels.
if you say that our military barracks are not well built and equiped,have you ever seen ugandas barracks?the so called soldiers sleep on grass thatched houses with a basic salary of 5,000 sh,the salary of a kenyan shamba boy.
the cost of military hardware is very costly not forgeting that we don’t make our own gadgets; we import them from devoloped and powerfull countries.
most military activities are highly clandestine and top secrets so you are not in a position to know what our military has in posetion because the disclosure of military hardware could threaten our national security.
the information you have is unreliable and unsubstantian. you probanly got that from the t.v or news papers written by normal ignorant press who only post romours and personal thoughts.
you have been clearly mis-lead.
and by the way you are not a true patriot.
So whenn someone says truth that hearts they become unpatriotic? How stupid!
Uganda fighting Kenya will be the beginning of the end of Museveni. May be and i say be Uganda army is more equipped and battle hardened than the Kenyan counterpart but i don’t think you Uganda will win a war against Kenya that easily. Most of the goods going to Uganda at the moment pass through Kenya, if by any chance Kenya block that route, Uganda will be in trouble, big big trouble. So in that case a long and extended battle could end up being won by Kenya in the account of the Kenyan position.
But one thing is for sure Kibaki will not risk going to war with Uganda. Museveni bailed him out during last years post election’s chaos and may be Museveni needs something in return. But that might not last for long..if by any chance Raila becomes the President then we might as well see Uganda vs Kenya war.
Do not even think of going to war with Uganda, otherwise you guys will be colonised and for your information Mau Mau fighters will not come to your rescue. Uganda has fought enough battles to give it an uper edge of sleeping soldiers of Kenya.
Museveni wedged a war with on 27 soldiers and guns, against the might of Government forces armed with evrything they needed tgo anihilate the rebels.
It will be a disaster for our Kenyan soldiers who only know how to eat Molokony in bars and smooch women
my foot be 1000000 be hardened , you can never beat kenya even no matter how , for sure i know that even if we cant beat ethiopia our battle will be almost the same , even if you beat us ,we close the port we destroy your aircrafts and thats all
kenya can beat uganda with less than a week.
our military is well organised and powerful and infact we should not compare ourselves with inferiorities.
kenya is a giant economy in east africa and has the highest military training using tactics from israel.
the ugandan airforce is weak. very weak. very very weak
not forgatint they don.t have an airforce.
what they have is only a weak army
I AM A RETIRED SECURITY OFFICIAL. HAVING SERVED THE KENYAN PEOPLE FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS. YES THE CURRENT POLITICAL REGIME IN KENYA IS THE MOST CONFUSED AND INEPT. HOWEVER I CAN ASSURE ALL THAT THE UGANDAN PEOPLES DEFENCE FORCE IS NO EQUALL TO THE KENYA MILITARY AND SECURITY ARSENAL. TWO WEEKS OF ENGAGEMENT WOULD BE A LONG TIME TO WAIT FOR THE KENYAN FLAG TO BE HOISTED IN KAMPALA STATE HOUSE. BY THE WAY, IN 1987 THE UGANDAN FORCES THAT HAD MADE INCURSIONS INTO BUSIA WERE DRIVEN OFF BY THE BATTLE HARDENED RECCE COMPANY OF THE G.S.U AND NOT THE ADMINISTRATION POLICE. MORAL IN THE KENYA SECURITY FORCES IS GENERALLY HIGHER THAN WHAT WE KNOW OF THE U.P.D.F. IN ADDITION, KENYAN WILL GET INTO SUCH A BATTLE WITH A CLEAR CAUSE AS OPPOSED TO UGANDANS WHO ALL KNOW IT IS JUST ONE OF THEIR LEADERS DIVERSIONARY TACTICS.
good one brother.we celebrate you.
my dad and uncle serve in the airforce and this i know from them that uganda can never beat kenya.
and i completely agree with you that kenya can’t go to war without a just cause.
museveni is just trying to strategise on his master plans but the plans backfired.
kenya is a GOD FEARING COUNTRY .
hmmmmmmn rhetoric devoid of military expertise. aircrraft? doing what? not in numbers owned by the kenyan force. the real war is on the ground and this is where might is. watch the US invasion of iraq. i like the kenyan dream of wiping a ugandan force within weeks.
Mzee Majimbo, I don’t know which Kenyan Army you are referring to and which UPDF you are talking about. More powerful armies than Kenya have dreamed of marching into Kampala ( Sudan, Angola, Chad, Zimbabwe, DRC and even Rwanda) Ask those armies about the true UPDF.
If your army was that strong Uganda would not be in Migingo. The only thing we need is fuel. Bullets, landmines, shells are manufactured in Uganda, or you thought kenya is the only country making bullets (you don’t make landmines). We know all about you and your weaknesses and political confusion. Did you know we have enough weapons and men to launch another front from Somalia. Let’s face it, you are powerless and Uganda will leave Migingo the way we came. By the way, I also think it is your island but am relishing the humiliation and powerlessness you feel.
ANYBODY WITH THE GUT TO SAY THAT AN EXTENSION OF A BANDIT MILITIA WHICH IS U.P.D.F CAN BEAT KENYA ARMY IS FEEDING HIS WILDEST ILLUSIONS.THOUGH KENYA ARMY CONSIST OF ABOUT 45000 WELL TRAINED AND DISCIPLINED SOLDIERS,WE NEED OUR 32000 A.PS(POLICE) WHO ARE COMBAT TRAINED AND FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE TO FACE BANDITS.OUR ARMY SHOULD ONLY BE USED AGAINST A WORTH OPPONENT WHO DOES NOT EXIST IN THIS REGION.THE STRATEGY OF OUR FORCES IS TO DEPLOY A SMALL HEAVILY EQUIPED,WELL TRAINED,ABSOLUTELY LETHAL FORCE LIKE THE ONE DEPLOYED BY ISRAELIS AGAINST 6 MILLION ARAB ARMIES.OUR STANDING ORDERS STIPULATE HAVING A FORCE THATS STRONG NOT TO FIGHT WARS BUT SEND CHILLS IN THE SPINE OF OUR ENERMIES AND SO AVOID WARS IN THE FIRST PLACE.THE BEST ARMY IS THE ONE THAT WINS WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT.NOW MR.SPARTAN,YOU SEEM OBSESSED WITH THE NUMBERS BUT DO YOU KNOW THAT IN 1982 FALKAN WAR BRITAIN WAS OUTNUMBERED 60 TO 1 BY ARGENTINIANS?DO YOU KNOW ISRAEL WAS OUTNUMBERED 10,000 TO ONE? INFACT UGANDA HAS A LARGE FORCE WHO ARE INFANTRY MEN OR FOOT SOLDIERS WHO ARE POORLY TRAINED AND ILL EQUIPED.IVE NEVER SEEN A SITE THAT REFERS TO THEM AS PROFFESIONALS OR REGARDS THEM HIGHLY.ANY SITE THAT IVE READ HAS HIGH REGARDS FOR KENYA ARMY.TALKING OF LAND MINES,THATS AN ANCIENT(NEANDERTHAL) WAY OF FIGHTING WARS.INFACT MODERN ARMIES DONT USE MINES.INSTEAD,MODERN ARMIES ARE DOING EVERYTHING TO DE-MINE OLD MINES LEFT BY ANCIENT ARMIES.KENYA HAS THE BIGGEST SCHOOL OF DE-MINING WHERE RWANDANS ,BURUNDIANS AND ERITREANS ARE LEARNING TO DE-MINE.ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT POLITICAL TAIL WAGGING BY KIBAKI IS WHATS SPARING MUSEVENI OTHEWISE NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE U.P.D.F WAS BEAT UP BY OUR POLICE.ONLY UNTILL RECENTLY DID UGANDA HAVE A DECENT ARMY ALMOST A LEVEL OF REMOTELY BEING CALLED PROFESSIONAL ARMY AND THEY ALREADY LOOKING FOR A FIGHT.WHEN THEY FOUGHT BANDITS IN CONGO AND ELSEWHERE,THEY RAN AWAY FROM REAL ARMIES OF ANGOLA AND RWANDA.THEY CLAIMED BEING OUTNUMBERED WHICH IS RIDICULOUS.
REAL TALK,THE 6 MIG 24 THAT UGANDA HAS AND AM TOLD ONLY 1 IS COMBAT READY IS NO MATCH FOR 50 MD500 HELICOPTERS GUN SHIPS IN THE KENYA AIR CALVERY DIVISION.EACH MD 500 CARRIES 4 TOW MISSILES FOR KILLING TANKS.THE 7 MIG JETS THAT UGANDA ACQUIRED FROM LIBYA IS NO MATCH FOR 30+ F5s AND 7 HAWKS IN THE KENYA AIRFORCE.THE T62s and T55s IN THE U.P.D.F IS NO MATCH FOR KENYA ARMY T72s and MARK 3 TANKS.REAL TALK,KENYA ARMOR DIVISION HEAVILY OUT GUNS UGANDA BY A MARGIN OF 20 YEARS.IN KENYAS DEFENCE MODULATION AGAINST UGANDA, KENYA ACQIRES COMPLETE AIR DOMINANCE IN 3 HOURS AND UGANDAS ARMOR OF OBSOLETE TANKS AND ARTILLERY IS WIPED OUT IN 48 HOURS.KENYA ARMY FLAG IS HOISTED AT KAMPALA STATE HOUSE EXACTLY 72 HRS SINCE COMMENCEMENT OF HOSTILITIES.I WUOLD LIKE TO INVITE SPARTAN TO LOOK AT THE WESITE OF KENYA ARMED FORCES AND SEE WHAT UGANDA IS UP AGAINST.UGANDA LOSES BIG IN ALL ELEMENTS NEEDED TO EXECUTE A WAR.ON TOP OF THAT KENYA DEFENCE BUDGET IS BIGGER THAT UGANDA,TANZANIA RWANDA AND BURUNDI COMBINED.NOW GO FIGURE.
Kenyans are not different from Baboons and pigsn in reasoning.
You make me laugh and cry at the same time. Check world/african millitary rankings and challenge the world again
RODGER THAT BROTHER. I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHY WE ARE ARGUING WITH INFERIORITY AND POVERTY.TJE UGANDAN ARMY IS WEAK.ITS AIRFORCE IS WEAK.AM NOT EVEN SURE WHETHER THEY HAVE JETS.ALL THEY HAVE IS MERE CHOPPERS USED TO TRANSPORT THEIR BANDITS TO CHILDISH MISSIONS.ACCORDING TO WHAT I KNOW, KENYA BOUGHT THE SAS 2010 AH-6.HERE IS A LINK TO A SAMPLE OF THE GUNSHIIP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SAS_2010_AH-6.JPG.
THERE IS NO SAY TO WHAT KENYA CAN DO TO UGANDA WITH LESS THAN A WEEK
UGANDA DOES’T EVEN FIT TO BE A WORTHY OPONENT. WE SHOULD BE COMPAIRING OURSELVES WITH EGYPT OR NIGERIA.
You are all behaving like savages! All the comments I have seen so far have been hatred towards the other country. Sadly, BOTH the Kenyan and Ugandan militaries are completely weak and outdated when compared to the rest of the world, and odds are, if a war starts between the two nations, the UN will stop it. There is no need to argue when you should really be attempting to forge stronger bonds, instead of acting like a load of bigots.
you seem to be confused,how can you compare the kenyan military to those of poor countries like chad,rwanda,zimbabwe and the poorest country uganda?
its sad to learn that our brothers across the border think they are any good. i was at Etale and Majanji beach, right inside Uganda. as a private operative, i managed together with my colleagues to conduct a covert operation, passing through their military personnel, subduing the smaller ones and successfully execute the mission. right inside the Ugandan boundaries we rescued a captive of the updf and check within their internal posting and you will confirm some hostages went missing. is this the same army that can not keep its hostages try to even think of war when we literally walked in and out of their holding facility? when we hit and left without air support, ground backup and counting on one person at the extraction point. the same military whose soldiers carry M24s but no little about the weapon than fire aimlessly? the best thing for them is to think of how to forge stronger ties with others and not of war. about Migingo, my new president is not to be mocked. i trust he will react. he only needs to say a word and the kenyan border expands 50 kilometers into Uganda.
Wow – some trustworthy operative you are – sharing matters of Kenyan national security on a forum like this over a dumb hypothetical argument. Cant imagine what else you’d share if you were bought a drink. Pathetic.
Why do you cane the battock of a sick child suffering from dementia, when a child climbs at a ant-hill mole and claims it is his, do you bomb him? Kenyan sympathises with you. Why gundown housefly with a gun…just leave it and it will fly away. That is Uganda and Migingo.
Mi naona uganda wapewe tu migingo na si juu ya uoga ni juu ya huruma , sioni kuna haja tupigane mkipigana un itakuja , anyway its an small rock in the lake
Lest I forget, you are really not counting on Tanzania to deny Uganda access to their ports for fuel, are you? They also must be itching for a fight that would humble Kenya. And in case you did not know, Uganda does not import any arms through Kenya. How can an army which was recently disarmed by warriors by Somalia be a threat to Uganda?
A MONTH AGO UGANDAN SO CALLED SOLDIERS WERE WASTED BY THE POKOTS.THEIR GOVERMENT DOES NOT EVEN PROVFIDE ENOUGH RATION TO FEED THEM THEY HAVE TO STEAL CATTLE FROM POKOTS.THE INCIDENT YOU ARE REFFERING TO WHERE SOMALIS TOOK WEAPONS FROM A SMALL KENYA ARMY POST IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I TALKED ABOUT ABOVE.THE KENYA DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE(D.O.D) GAVE THEM 48 HOURS (IF YOU FOLLOWED THE STORY) TO RETURN THOSE WEAPONS OR FACE THE WRATH OF KENYA ARMY.DID YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED?THEY RETURNED ALL WAEPONS AND AND BEGGED FOR MERCY FROM THE D.O.D.WE ARE SO OVERWHELMING WE WIN WITHOUT FIRING.YOU GUYS ARE LUCKY THAT KIBAKI IS YOUR PARTNER IN CRIME.
Ugandans are living in illussions caused by bush thugs who Kony has defeated…. Wake up, Kenya only need to send police to punish sturbonsome bush thugs from Uganda. Why waste Kenyan military for no course.
Majimbo, M7 has been smarting since GSU whacked his boys in 1987. So, like a true Field Commander, he regrouped and learnt his lesson. He’s rebuilt his Officer Corps, his armour, and other deterrents. But as Sun Tzu asks, what’s to be gained in the end??????!!!!! Hitler made a good push for Stalingrad but in the end Moscow could not fall into his clutches. So Spartan, true the UPDF as the Wehrmacht has battle-hardened men, but in the end the army of 1941 was not the army of 1942 (less than 1 year)!!! What’s it all for???? Glory??? Peace??? Expansion??? Oil???
It is laughable that Ugandans are beating their chests in readiness for combat with Kenya. It has taken Uganda decades to wipe out a small millitia group called LRA, it took the Kenya army just two weeks to clear SLDF, a much bigger and organised outfit. Thats going too far, lets be realistic Ugandans, a man called Paul Kagame humiliated Museveni in Congo with an army of less than 1000 men without the basics of war. Then the other day Kenya assisted South Sudan to acquire millitary hardware against international. What does that tell you about Kenya and its strategic preparedness? What I am saying is that incase Uganda make a silly move to attack Kenya then it will be the end of Museveni and his desire to rule East Africa.It will for sure be a bloody regional conflict as Rwanda, South Sudan and Burundi wont sit back. As for Tanzania coming to the rescue of Museveni, I doubt. Remember your country’s history. And what has Tanzania to offer in terms of millitary power anyway? Let me finish by making it clear to Ugandans, you dont have a navy, we do. We dont even need the army to deal with UPDF. Our GSU and AP’s are a contigent enough to fly the Kenyan flag at Nakasero.
Men you all make me laugh, Uganda army can beat the Kenya army black and blue the way spartan puts it, but if Kenya can only acquire 5 F16s new ones and replace the current Kenya army personnel with Mungiki, Chinkororo and Taliban, then Museveni will be peeing on his pants after 2 days he will be beging for forgiveness
With Raila on the throne Museveni cant cough, With Kibaki there Museveni is making merry, He could have been finished long time ago if we had people like moi.
I will be entailing myself into arguments with people who do not understand security issues if i over engage too much in this discussion. But as an eye opener, i invite those in a deep illusion to consider the following. 1) study the declared weoponary of the kenya armed forces and compare them with the outdated arsenal of U.P.D.F (the info is on the internet) 2) what is the moral level in U.P.D.F? it takes U.P.D.F to use A.P.Cs against the kenyan pokot tribesmen. how many kenyan security personnel have ever defected to uganda? How long has it taken U.P.D.F to fight Kony and yet the battle is not yet over?? what is the logistic support efficiency of U.P.D.F? with the large uganda army how much do you spend per soldier per year compare that with kenya(look at the militarybudgets of the two countries) why does it take uganda moving A.P.C.S to centre of the capital because of a small security or terror alert?( because you are a very insecure lot). 3) most uganda army equipment transits through kenya is a fact you cannot run away from. capabilities of this weopons are part of doctrine training for the KENYA security forces. and i insist that alot of the weopons held by U.P.D.F ARE VERY VERY out dated. 4) what is the sevicability of ugandan airforce fighters? Are aware of the real K.A.F capabilities? 5) can U.P.D.F face an orgarnised army????????? so far if they have any victories it has been against rag tat armies. that does not make U.P.D.F soldiers battle hardened. whom were they fighting in D.R.C???? REMEMBER they had to withdraw in huff when the angolans appeared!!!!!!!! what happened when they faced the rwandesse army???? M7 HAD TO NEGOTIATE HIS WAY OUT OF THE potential embarasment. 6) kijana how long can uganda sustain a war? you may be too poor to last an intense war that exceeds three week of serious combat. Kenya despite the political problems has sufficient resource to put a sustained intense attack which will see us establish military presence in Kampala in less than two weeks. that is the truth. By the way landmine production is not a factor in assesment of military prowess.modern nations are moving away from Production and use of landmine. The fact that uganda is busy producing such items which are clearly banned under a U.N declaration should be a testimony enough to confirm that the weopons you are proud of belong to the meuseum. The battle phases with kenya will be as follows 1) within 5 days kenya would be incharge of your airspace and a more than half of your old tanks and artellary would have been destroyed. kenyan ground forces would be half way to your capital city.meanwhile entebe which is strtegic to uganda would have fallen and the G.S.U together with other elements of the kenya police would be engaged in a mop up exercise in that town. 2) by day 10 kampala would be in our sight and the remenant of U.P.DF would be in total retreat while a large number would have either defected,desrted or melted into civilian population. ugundan politicians would be pressing the international community to effect a cease fire. 3) by day 14 kenyan troops will be taking coffee made in kenya in Kampala.
thanks majimbo .u have taken ugandas behind the burn and told them the truth that their goverment has denied them.
good one brother.a weak and dis_organised army bandit can never beat a super power kenya.thats just an illusuion.ugandans pride themselves of an inferior army or rather bandits.
they took years just to get rid of insurgencies while kenya just took less than a month to take down S.L.D.F who were even well organised and better prepared as compared to U.P.D.F.
JUST because museveni served in the BANDIT does’t mean he is fit. he’s just an old man trying to retire in style.
and i forgot to let you know that U.P.D.F has never won a war??? study your history properly . all their military escapades have resulted in negotiated pull out upon realisation that they stood no chance of holding ground. remember M7 ACKNOWLEDGED THAT Uganda was backing and training FERA AGAINST KENYA. where is FERA?????????? it took kenyan police and intelligence to flash them out of their bases inside Uganda. Meanwhile Kony remain a thorn in your flesh!!!!!!!!! Kony has existed for a period in excess of 15 years. Good manuverable armies fight in an intelligent manner .
hmmmmmn we have come a long way. im glad that kenyans can spend all this time convincing whoever can listen how powerful they are. please continue, some one surely needs to be convinced.
Bravo Majimbo. And “mkenya”, you should research the capabilities of the T-72s, you’re obviously didn’t pass in “strategy”!!!
And what they are doing to our people in Pokot will be repaid with interest!!!
The idea that the U.P.D.F IS BATTLE HARDENED IS A FALLACY. At its best, the assertion is based on very false premises. Ask the seasoned Uganda soldiers most of whom keep defecting to Kenya and were proffessionally de-briefed and they will tell you that it is clear to the old ugandan soldiers that the day M7 attacks kenya , that will mark the end of his rule. Dont boast of your peace keeping mission in somalia. this adds zero to the c.v. of U.P.D.F. Fact is that because of not being considered a proffessional Army, the united nations has never invited uganda to contribute soldiers to any peace keeping mission. Kenyans will fight a modern warfare. not old one which relays on digging holes an placing in mines. If anything you should know that the Kenya armed forces have and are operating an international supported centre Which trains forces from all over the world on De-maining. the centre is based at embakasi in nairobi.
Without the use of A.P.C and bigger calibre weopons, i doubt that U.P.D.F infantry would be effective against the pokots. it would just be a repeat of the fight against Kony
Kenyans have a reason to be worried….I think we will be overrun….Check out this:—
If the data is wrong…please correct me with data..
KENYA
Product Quantity
AML (Reconnaissance Vehicle) 72 Select
BTR-60 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 3 Select
Carl Gustaf (Grenade launcher) 56 Select
Ferret Mk 1/1 (Reconnaissance Vehicle) 12 Select
M3 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 10 Select
Mk 3 (Main battle tank) 78 Select
SALADIN (Reconnaissance Vehicle) 3 Select
SARACEN (Infantry fighting vehicle) 5 Select
Shorland S52 (Reconnaissance Vehicle) 8 Select
UR-416 M (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 52 Select
UGANDA SIDE:
Product Quantity
9K11 Malutka/AT-3 Sagger (Anti-tank guided missile launcher) 20 Select
BMP-2 (Infantry fighting vehicle) 31 Select
BTR-40 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 20 Select
Casspir (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 70 Select
M-114 (Towed howitzer) 82 Select
OT-64 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 4 Select
PT-76 (Light tank) 20 Select
T-55 (Main battle tank) 20 Select
ZU-23 (2A13) (Anti-aircraft machine gun) 5 Select
where has the money been going? Is there a security strategy for Kenyans..or the chaos of other Govt arms is also in the military…
Do we have someone informed to explain to us..
thanks.
twitter.com/nairobilive
I am a serving Officer in the rank of Colonel in Kenya Armoured Corps. Iam pained at the level of ignorance and stupidity being expressed in these pages on matters intricate and complex by civilian-type smart-alecs without the vaguest understanding and knowledge of these matters. Francis Majimbo speaks Military, from personal knowledge and experience. The short word is kenya will not wage war on Uganda on flimsy grounds as a worthless piece of real estate which previous to the CHGS in Kampala served as a strategic smugglers den for years. The Kenya Armed Forces Standing Operation Strategies are formulated on the simple principle of Clear and Present National Interest. Each year, each new class at our War Games Schools spread all across the Country review and update detailed and precise War Plans against all manner of real and imagined Enemies of Kenya, Uganda included. And for years in all these simulated War Games, Kampala effectively capitulates in 72 to 84 hours from the onset of Hostilities. International Pressure soon thereafter bring this theatre to a close.
I want to state categorically, and I invite the UPDF to present contrary opinion, that the Uganda lacks an effective large-scale fighting army, the UPDF being primarily a political tool of projecting means of violence to cower an impressionable population. Like Majimbo aptly puts it, the UPDF has never been seriously tested with positive results, and largely has faced disorganised, ill-equiped, ill-trained, ill-led, ill-motivated rag-tags units in Uganda, Sudan and Congo. The UPDF lacks the means to rapidly deploy aggressor units, lacks any credible anti-armour capacity, lacks mobility of a fighting mobile armoured force, lacks an air-borne dispersal capability, lacks an interceptor air-arm, has no air bombardment capacity, has a very poor command-communication ability, has no credible Intelligence / reconnaissance Capacity, in fact can be likened only to the grossly over-rated “Gum-boot” Rwandaise Army with their near similar capacities to the Kenya GSU and the new Kenya AP RDF.
I can go on forever, as this is essentially what I do for a living – analyzing the threat matrix, daily, and the complex numerous appropriate responses. If you are not Military, I would suggest you keep your offensively ignorant comments on Military matters, altogether to yourself.
Asante
Fighter pilot, Lt Ekayi promises to land a missile right below Mu7nis bed on the third day should a war break .Thats a promise sir. And by the way as my supirior has put it, civilians keep off the military world including u.p.d.f
Thanks man, finally a breath of professional insight
you talk as if U’ve eva served in military.u know nothing about military, just an ignorant civilian who sits back n speculates.the influence probably have is from Wikipedia which sourced the info about 20 years ago.u don’t know what our military has been covertly purchasing from powerful states.
Leave alone even the weaponry, the physical fitness of our Kenya army is even in great doubt with three quarters of them weighing about 120 Kg and above, due to the cheap beer and free food that they drink and eat in the barracks as they entertain beautiful women.
I’m 100% convinced that our traffic police can even do better when it comes to close combat if given the opportunity, compared to our army.
I recently talked to one of the army officers, he himself confessed that Museveni only needs one week and Ugandan flag will be flying at state house, our army is only playing lip service, they are boasting of good military training and better equipments but no action, it is a shame to hear a whole general talking about our territory being grabbed as a non issue, our army can be compared to a professor in Kenya with a Doctorate Degree in Mechanical engineering boasting about his wealth of knowledge and qualifications, while the person has never even repaired a bicycle.
SHAME ON THEM, OUR OLD 7, F 5s HAVE NEVER EVEN FIRED A SINGLE SHOT, THEY EVEN LACK PINPOINT ACCURACY. TAKE THEM OUT OF THE BARRACKS AND DONATE THEM TO MANGU HIGH SCHOOL FOR LEARNING PURPOSES.
Thanks ole Nkarei and Ekayi, also Majibo has given a good status report on this issue. Mr. Abdi, about fitness all you need to know is that most of the athletes in the Kenyan contingent in any games are usually over 50% form the armed forces. And these guys usually conquer the world in long range stamina duels. This is the kind of crop you find in the army. If you have ever heard of match and shoot exercises…which i doubt you have…it all about fitness, the soldiers usually march with full gear in inhospitable terrain in Samburu and Mashru and other such places, and the rate of movement is such that they cover distances of up to 50km in a matter of a couple of hours…this exercises are rated highly in global military circles as they give indication of how fast a military force can infiltrate and occupy strategic positions in a theater of battle. In the region we also have one of the best trained para/airborne force, these guys can take over strategic positions inside U.G in a matter of hours if need arose, by the way have u ever seen the Uganda airborne….? As far as i,m concerned a war between Kenya and U.G is far fetched due to the large economic dependence. Over 60% of Ugandan manufactured goods come from Nairobi Industrial area, over 80% of their exports come through Kenya, do you realize what this means…if war ever broke between the two countries, then U.G would find itself in a very precarious position. In the long term the balance may stabilize with the discovery of oil in U.G since i’m sure the first thing MU7 will do is to improve his army…then we shall also be forced to be prepared as he may get ideas from his wealth.
If these guys are so tough then what are their top officers doing on our training schools being trained by our officers, why do they find it so had to fight the Pokots and Turkanas…a few heards men need to be dealt with by an entire U.G battalion..bure kabisa….
The information posted on the arms for both sides is not correct. The data for Kenya army is fairy old. Atleast 10 year or more old. If you check on very current websites the Kenya army has not only more current weopon but moral and fitness of the troops is described as very high. Check for the information from the various military stategic studies institutions , you have to be a registered member. Moral of the ugandan army is on the other hand not rated very positively. Looking at the above arms, i agree with francis that the arms on the ugandan side are inferior to the kenyan ones. A little internet based research will tell you that the M.B.T held by uganda are very old post W.W 11 . Havent you read about fighter aircrafts aquired by Kenya? What about the T 72 M.B.T.? what about the 50 air calvary attack helicopters?
In military assesment it is not the quantity of weopons that count. To get a fair assesment one has to evaluate capability of the weopon, sevicability and the ability of the force to efficiently deploy the weopon effectively in a combat theatre.
The lead article above talks about U.P.D.F fighting rebels in eastern D.R.C ? Does U.P.D.F have any experience in fighting an orgarnised army ? The answer is No. If it is rebels the kenya army has a history of destroying such groups albeit in a shorter duration than U.P.D.F.
The political situation in U.G is worse than what you may think. U.G is a defacto one party state with state institution yet to recover from years of misrule and dictatorship. Only one man makes decision in a country where the president ,his son and lately the wife occupy positions of influence. I am not sure that such a thing despite our current political mess can be accepted by Kenyans.
Lastly ,take my word, If even in his dreams, Museveni thought that he has a chance of taking over kenya, i can assure you he would have done it yesterday . The current bubble in migingo if simply a diversionary tactic by museveni to keep you away from the real issues facing uganda.
We know this man too well.
Ask yourself how did a newspaper in Kenya publish what was otherwise supposed to be a secret plan by the ugandans to take over migingo? (operation restore sanity) . There are many ugandans in high places who offer Kenya a lot of information regarding the political, military and economic situation in uganda on a day to day basis. U.G is too transparent in the eyes of Kenya.
Of the many weopons listed as belonging to U.P.D.F above, between half and one third are non operational due to poor mantainance an lack of sparepart.
A fact not mentioned so far in this discussion is that the U.P.D. airforce is simply a disfunctional group that would be at pain to fly a half a squadron of any mixed type of fighters. Uganda does not have any creadible air defence system. Who will protect its skies ? who will provide aircover for your ground troops? before you know it the little armour you have will all be history.
Practice a little bit more with rebels in the north, disorgarnised rebels in D.R.C, somalia militias, then improve your airforce and air defence system, sought out your politics by moving away from dictatorship, improve your economy so that you have more money to keep your armed forces better and establish cheaper import route/source other than Kenya then you will be men and women enough to attack Kenya. Then museveni will attack without being motivated by the desire to divert the attention of ugandans from internal challenges.
Also take my bet, Museveni will leave Migingo the same way he came and those who will question his action to leave will be fryed.
Thanks for the Insight…Though I feel that Kenya beeing the economic superpower should realy do more with the military…especialy to detter the Northen Neighbours mainly Ethiopia and Sudan…Just in case of anything over the Oil rich Illemi Triangle which could be the main source of conflict…I highly doubt if the T-72 tanks were for kenya army…Unless Kenya intends to assist South Sudan in 2011 militarily so that we get our 9th province ..otherwise..I think they belong to GOSS..who are preparing for the worst…They have the oil money…
Mkenya. I am a soldier in the Officer Corps of Kenya Armed Forces. It really would be advisable for you to seek out freely available information to better inform your comments on matters as serious and complex as Military. My assurances might not count for much to you, but nonetheless I will state here that each of the threat matrixes you mention and others you are unaware of are subject to serious studies and simulation in our Defense College, Combat Schools and other Officer Training Schools of the Kenya Armed Forces. Some of the Simulations are carried with friendly foreign Military Forces. For instances, the KAF has real-time Air-Combat training using Soviet era Jet-fighters and Bombers that are in use in Ethiopia, Eriteria and Sudan against our main-line Fighter intercepters and Air-defense Forces. Similarly, War Games in Kenya simulated a host of Possible Hostile actions from each of these Threat Matrixes, and the real-time response of our Defense Components detailed for facilitate reviews / studies for each class and subsequent classes. We are prepared as well as we can without going into a “General Mobilisation” which is what usually indicates full preparation to Armed Conflict.
As concerns your expressions of the T72, your doubts have no substance or fact and may have been influenced by all the disinformation and propaganda generated by Kenya Armed Forces( and with Western backing) precisely to avoid upsetting the Military Balances precipitiously. You must know that the world’s traditional Oil-fields are soon depleted and the rush is on for new sources of energy which unsurprising bring Africa (and East Africa) into focus. The large Oilfields in Northern Kenya have remained unexploited because of a cleverly engineered insecurity situation planted as the colonialists were leaving Kenya, and which was designed to ensure Kenya remained a reserve source of hydrocarbons when the Saudis ran out. And this applies to Somalia (which has the largest off-shore oil reserves in Africa) and Congo ( which has not enjoyed peace since independence from conflicts that defy reason). Kenya needed to break this Colonial Crucible to bring these immense Natural Resources to bear in the development of our Nation – hence the huge rearmament of the past 6years ( from the East!!) involving approximately USD400Million each subsequent year. The T72 you quote are therefore just a piece of the puzzle that has been quietly put into place earlier before British Interests intervened with the hijacking of the MV FAINA.
Please seek information and you shall be better informed.
Asante.
Ole Nkarei, I have followed your discourse on this forum and others and I must confess, your submissions are lucid and well stated. Am however baffled by the postulation that the T-72 saga was all disinformation and propaganda by the Kenya Army in cahoots with western media, yet in the same breath, you state British interests’ involvement in the FAINA hijacking. Isn’t that contradictory?
Maingi
Those looking at the ugandan arms as displayed in some websites need to do a little more internet research.
If you visit the more authoritative sites they will have a note to the effect that most of the tanks and other arms held by uganda are unservicable. in short they cannot be deployed for war with kenya.
Please take your time and also do a weopon by weopon research for each side and you will discover for example the t55 tanks are not only outdated but they are inferior to mk3 by far.
War is never the best option when it comes to conflict resolution. todays war over territory is likely to recur many generations to come.
Kenya army soldier are unfit??? that is not only a lie but a statement loaded with total ignorance. does the un think they are unfit? no . when they appear for military parades do they look overweight? certainly no. If the kenya military was unfit the un and au would never involve them in dengerous peace keeping missions as was in kosovo,seira leon , ethiopia mozambique e.t.c. one creteria for such missions is discipline which i can tell you is a rear commodity within u.p.d.f.
Uganda is only trying to convince the world that its troops can be part of un missions through engagement in somalia.
any one with imagination that the small uganda contigent in somalia can launch an offensive against kenya is not sensible. first the somali s will not allow you and if you try they will engage you to your peril. second the ugandan goverment has no way of offering logistic support to such troops third those troops are not equipped to launch any offensive. uganda finally does not have the resource base to fight two wars at the same time. that is engage rebels in drc & kony, engage a proffessional kenyan army and keep peace in somalia?
Avoid war and war mongering it is the only way forward.
also read on the internet the ugandan army recieved a donation of 100 trucks from china. alas !!!!!!!! trucks are so basic that if a donar thinks that is what you need then you have a serious problem. you should be able to afford basics for your soldiers. what else should we wait to hear??? so and so has donated military boots to u.p.d.f to replace gumboots which they use.
I think i agree with mr francis uganda has never won a single war. what we read is sparadoric wining of battles. faced with rwanda , a small tiny country u.p.d.f was crushed. M7 had to negotiate his way out.
War stinks !!!!!!!!!!!! war is bad !!!!!!!! let us work for peace. forget about battle hardened U.P.D.F or kenya police G.S.U. recce company . let us use this forum to discuss how we can work together for economic prosperity of both countries. May God give all of you some wisdom. I retired from the army having been in 2 U.N peace missions and hence having experienced first hand the devastating effects of war. pray for peace. work for peace. and economic prosperity.
thank njuguna for giving these people the advice. wars only damages whether kenya or uganda wins the facts remains that there will be l;oss of live. it better for eastafrican communitry to come up with one strong economy.
Bravo Njuguna. peace is what we need and not useless wars. infact kenya should spend less of its money on military. I am told that we have a pact with the brits. that is why they keep a number of bases in kenya? any information on this??
Truth is that all arms listed for U.P.D.F are unservicable.
when did you last see a fighter plane fly over kampala??
T 55 are very old tanks and the ugandan ones have never been upgraded.
what army from uganda will then fight Kenya when they dont have the basic arsenals???
As predicted in the forum Uganda is on its way out of migingo.
Sun tsu say the wise general is one who wins a war without firing a gun.
Jane defence is an authority in military matters. May be those with wrong impressions should read its reviews on the capabilities of the kenya and uganda military.
As for servicability of wepons, uganda military can hardly fly a fighter aircraft. most (upto 60 %) of the t-55 are basically scrap metals .
Much as i agree that war is a shamefull act, i state that it is a complete illussion for any person to imagine that u.p.d.f stands any chance against a proffessional army like the kenya military.
Well as i have indicated before we are talking about war with Uganda over Migingo, a 1 acre island in lake Victoria full of stones…what utter nonsense!!! It doesn’t matter who is president, war is something you get into once everything has failed and you’d be a fool to think that all that is published on the internet is the true status of our armies capabilities. And why would Museveni want to attack Kenya? I mean with all his excursion to other countries how much land has he been able to add to the surface area of Uganda? Museveni knows what Kenya means to his people and even the history of Kenya in getting him to power so all this talk of military capabilities is just a redundant conversation.
And just because we never display our military hardware doesn’t mean it doesnt exist.
Majimbo, Majimbo…… What now will you write so ferociously about? Remember I told you Uganda would leave of its own accord! And stop quoting Sun Tsu’s ‘Art of War’ all the time-it’s becoming sickening and repetitive. It makes you sound like an amateur and wannabe intelligence officer. You are wondering how I know too much about you, huh? It’s because you make it so simple. That said, let me throw some light on the fallacies you have thrwon around.
1. UPDF MVs are unservicable. Give it up to them then for using such MVs in DRC, Sudan, Northern Uganda and Somalia. Or did you mean the whole UPDf are engineers in addition to being soldiers.
2. Uganda has never won a war. Now, which war have the Kenyan boyscouts, yeah, you heard me, boyscouts won? They have never seen battle. Do you sincerely expect 24,000 boyscouts to confront a 60,000 battle-tested army?
3. Uganda was beaten by Rwanda. I don’t think any analyst would put it that way. Listen, Uganda was outnumbered 3:1 by Rwanda (most of the Ugandan troops were around Gbagolite at that time). But still we held our ground and were not disarmed like the Somali militias did to 400 Kenyan troops in 1998. Can you imagine. In the UPDF you lose your gun you are as good as dead. No real soldier gets disarmed. At least you die like the Ugandan troops who were surrounded for 4 days by a Rwandese brigade and did not give up till they were all wiped out. Rest In Peace.
4. Kenyan Airforce is a threat to Uganda. Tangu lini? Angola and Zimbabwe had superior air forces but did you hear them wreak havoc on the gallant UPDF? You do not need an airforce in the Great Lakes to win a war. You only need an advanced anti-aircraft system. Example: Before 1995 sudan used to bomb Northern Uganda and South Sudan with impunity. do you know what wiped out their air superiority? In Jan 1997 they lost 02 MIGs and an Antonov. You wouldn’t know. So bring on your junk airforce.
5. Uganda has never been invited for peacekeeping missions. Really? Uganda had troops in Liberia and now Somalia. by the way it is not just the UPDF who are invited but also Uganda Police. Our police is in Darfur, Serbia, East Timor and African Union is paying Uganda to train the Somali Police. Where has your brutal police ever been invited Majimbo?
Who is the chiken now. Lakini Majimbo!!
Museveni should stop taking jokes too for the moment he l see things out of hand it wll be too late , lest the paliament declare a state of emmergency ,thas the time You poeple will see wonders and for your information Regarding museveni funny talks our N.Y.S comat is enough to silence him, leave alone the Army, we should think of the Army the moment our flag is in Kampala
After through research ive realised that UPDF is one of the low rated armies in Africa.
Angola, Zimbabwe and Rwanda this are armies with no basics of war, Museveni should not thumb his chest, i dont think he will survive if he attacks Kenya. President Kibaki likes diplomacy simply because they are partners in fish business , With Raila or Moi as presidents mambo ingekuwa tofauti kwa Uganda, ask yourself why has Museveni decided to attack Migingo when Kibaki is the president, these two men are simply playing business politics.
Spartan how many minutes did it take the Kenya police to drive away the U.P.D.F at the boarder in 1986. Uganda is not an organized army. Please note The Kenya navy has even the ability to launch missiles from Indian ocean that can hit Kampala.
Spartan it only took the action of the Kibera residents to force Museveni to lower the Ugandan flag in Migingo. It will take another two weeks of blocking Ugandan goods and Museveni will have no choice.
It takes only 30 minutes for Turkana warriors to invade and defeat a combined force of UPDF and karamojong warriors armed with old T 55 tanks.
In Africa Kenya is rated 6th among the best millitaries in Africa, Egypt leads and others follow in the following order, south Africa, Libya, Morocco, Nigeria, Kenya and Tunisia.
Apart from almost 200 new and serviceable T72 tanks that Kenya has, in its inventory it has 60 M1 Abraham tanks, and we are not counting the T 55 which are obsolete anyway.
The total Kenya army personnel currently totals to 45,000 all well trained in modern warfare. Spartan your data i think is obsolete. According the defense talk.com, Kenya Military is one of the most secretive armies in the world acquiring most of its modern weapons from Britain and United states its also in the process of purchasing another war ship which the deal is yet to be finalized, therefore understanding it is hard, no wonder we are the superpowers in East and central Africa.
Spartan it took Israel in 1967 six days to wipe out a large Arab army comprising of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Palestine, therefore war is tactics.
Kenya has several ways of beating Uganda if it wants, it can simply decide to support and arm Kony, and im very sure a UPDF is no match to a well armed Joseph Kony. Kenya has even the capability to arm South Sudan, its even arming and training the Uganda Military what does that one tell you.
Spartans speaks like an idiot, from all sides of his mealy mouth. He tries to goad response, but making outrageously personal digs in his commentary. There is no substances nor facts in his submissions. He should be ignored to go away altogether.
Lets look at a classic Operations Plan for threat Uganda.
Three weeks to get Assets into place on Jump-sites along the Border, Stock-piling of stores and ordnance, marshalling of transport, armour, completion of Air-serviceability, brushing up of operational plans, etcc..
D-Day
Persons in our Military will attest this presence of oil in Northern Kenya from personal knowledge of the evidence. And our War Games have components that include full-scale defensive operations in the north from invasion by Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia. Because African Wars are proxy-resources conflicts, to exploit the Northern Resources demand a capacity to defending them – and hence the recent aggressive build-up of our Armoured Division, our Anti-tank Air Calvary capacity and robust Ground Support Air-wing, and strategic Combat interceptor Aircraft. Does the T-72 saga clarify now? Uganda on the other hand has a military philosophy informed by a charactor of a “bandit-king” who shot his way to power using a discordant, rag-tag, brutish guerilla force, which has yet to evolve beyond the intimidation of the Civilian Population with its monopolistic propensity to mindless Violence. The “bandit-kind” has resolutely strangulated all other institutions of state and governance, and become the State himself, propping himself up with a whole politico-military edifice nurtured by a veritable Bandit-culture of raiding and pillaging all around the edifice! This explains the failure of Uganda to defeat the LRA by might or by reason despite 20 years of a internecine war – the National Interest is never the motivation of M7 and his cabal. Sadly, this monumental disaster is being actively replicated in Rwanda as the entire world wallows in the shame of its failure during the 1994 Genocide! What a horror our Africa is being turned into by the Western Countries in their mad quest to dominate our Natural Resources for their interests!!
Poor Kenyans, they are faced with hard economic times and an uncertain political future, they cant understand how Uganda is getting ahead of them in every field, You would be well advised not to provoke the UPDF because contrary to what people on this forum have been saying the UPDF is miles ahead of you and it would take less than a week for Nairobi to be turned into Kibera.You see, i think i know the reason why you have all those problems, i think its to do with the fact that you are aver electing Handsome presidents!!!! Kibaki, Moi, mrs kibaki………..
you call kenyans poor,what about the ugandans?in africa we are ranked at position 8,unlike uganda which is at position 15.uganda is very poor.
@ Mombasani – keep your contributions dispassionate, buddy. I am Kenyan like you, and uniformed to boot, but I tell you that It is the intellectual content of this blog that will educate and inform us , not such as you have posted above. Even when we exchange mortar fire, as we often do let the suppositions have the basis of credibility not matter how incredulous some of us will be.
We jiulize how many years old is kibaki , moi , ? guys are 90 and 80 its just that they are old
Iam a Ugandan raised or schooled in Nairobi in my primary and secondary school life. I later joined makerere in the early 90’s.
This is what I wish to say:-
1. War is a shamefull act.Uganda and Kenya must never go to war over anything leave alone NOTHING.During the hard times in Uganda history,it is in Kenya that many Ugandans got refuge.Today’s generation must be taught and reminded of past genorosity between the two countries.
2.Many Ugandan’s have some sort of bitterness and hence a dislike of Kenya.Current Uganda Leadership,though itself a beneficiary of Kenyan support,has done little to calm the prejudices against Kenya.
3.Kenyan economy is strong. Ugandan economy has shown remarkable improvement. I am currently a resident of U.K. I am also a frequent visitor of the two countries Uganda and Kenya. What I can state is that without the petrol dollar, it will take atleast 20 years of hard work for Uganda to be where Kenya is today. Take the cities of Kampala and Entebe for example, this cities have only recently started doing sewer systems. All major towns in Kenya have had sewer systems for close to 40 years. The same cities in Uganda do not have orgarnised residential estates. Nairobi is developing into a metropolitant with carefully designated and developed residential estates. When will Kampala have large residential estates, satellite towns within the town like westlands,rongai,buruburu ,eastleigh. How many universities does Kenya have compared to Uganda. What is the size of Industrial zones in Uganda compared to Kenya. Finally what is the annual budget of Uganda compared to Kenya. There are many examples that I can cite but it is needless.
5.As for matters Military, as a clever Ugandan reasoning with my head as opposed to emotions,I totally agree with the expert opinions by the two Kenyans above. U P D F stands no chance against the Kenyan armed forces. I recently read an article in quoting the the U S state departments assesment of the the terror threat in east africa, the article inter_alia gives a very positive review of the kenya military compared to U P D F. The article states further that the Kenya Military had aquired a good number of upgraded F5’s and that the Americans have been Involved in regular training and joint exercises With kenya military. I know for a fact that an airforce that is effective is essential to a execution of an effective war. Let as admit that U P D F hardly has an airforce. Information available on reliable websites such as J D and several others including even Indian,attest that Kenya military is far too advanced compared to UPDF.
6. Brothers,what do we stand to gain with a stupid war?. Is such a war worth?
7. Let us invest in our economies. That is what we should grant our kids.
Niva,
This world is better because of guys with your streak of thinking. Think of the wisdom of integrating ang unifying our armies. Not only would an east african army raid the region of alkhaeda, mungiki, kony, etc but would be an employer and a source of security for trader and exloitation of narural resurces
Niva u spoke like an intellect.am a kenyan but my wife is Ugandan. having got my medical degree from Makerere i would like to maintain contacts with colleagues in Kampala and even my kids should b able to visit.goin to war wil ruin this.bt am afraid M7 is takin jokes too far,most pple agree migingo is kenya’s.tht includes Ugandans,sovereignity of a country is somethng nt to b taken for granted.God bless us all.
Don’t all of you Kenyans just love Niva? Personally am not sold on the idea that he is Ugandan. Why? Just check his grammar – typical Kenyan i-mainly-use-swahili-forgive-my-grammar English. Same for Tom ole Nkarei, he can not begin his own name in capitals even if his life depended on it. And boy, do you have time – I admire your willingness to recite all the terminologies you’ve ever heard. As for your personal attacks on me, no offence taken.
Surprise, surprise. Am not impressed. No amount of classwork and military drills can prepare you for a real conflict. Ever wondered why the USA can not stay 30 years without war, they need to test their equipment and mental preparedness. Call UPDF a ragtag army for all you want. It does not change a thing. We are not scared of your army. You can attend all the courses you want and defeat Uganda on paper 1,000 times. Now, this is absurd – did you say in 3 days you would be in Kampala? First put your house in order and lose the confusion in your leadership.
Tell me one thing though. Does the definition of professionalism of the army in Kenya mean staying in barracks when 1,500 people butcher each other and 400 troops surrendering their arms when surrounded by untrained Somali militia? What is the use of your army’s ‘simulated war games’ if you can not rise to the occasion when Uganda ‘invades’ Migingo and Pokotland? What are you paid to do, in short, stay in barracks and polish your shoes?
Next time I want you explain to your readers MARTIAL LAW and when it comes into effect.
As for the UPDF harrassing Ugandans, I have news for your, we are not complaining. I can assure you more Ugandans have been harrassed and lost property at the hands of the Kenyan police than the UPDF.
And please stop proclaiming for all and sundry how you are either a serving Kenyan officer or retired for that matter. It denigrates your uniform. In standard armies, no soldier or reservist is allowed to utter what you just did unless he is the official spokesperson of their army. Even after retiring, as in the USA’s case and Uganda, you do not utter statements like Majimbo and Tom ole Nkarei until after 20 years (classified information is declassified after 20 years so whatever you say after that will be public knowledge anyway) Or do you think you are so anonymous on this blog. 20 dollars and 24 hours later I can get your real names, the ISP provider you used and the IP address of the computer used. So please begin to think like a real security officer if at all you are one.
Pray that this debacle ends peacefully.
Spartan,
I am a Ugandan like yourself and I want to declare my total support to you for defending the republic from uncalled for attacks from misguided kenyan elements.
The Kenya army is nothing but a bunch of softies who are a very unnecessary burden to the suffering kenya tax payer. The only times they have come out to do anything remotely resembling war is when the kill civillians like the did during the 1960s-1970s while hunting the shifta bandits. In 1984 you all recall the great massacre in the NE province in Wasagalla. Over 4,000 innocent Somalis were rounded and killed. This great atrocity has never been investigated and justice is yet to be done. If ICC was existent by then a number of Kenyan leaders and military officials would be facing the fate Bashir is facing now.
Lately thousands of civilians were massacred in Mt. Elgon.
The Kenya army for all its purported strengths is just a barracks outfit being fattened like pigs in a sty. The last thing they would like, is to be called out of their enjoyment and comfort zones to come to war with Uganda or any other outfit.
The other bit I know about the kenya army is that they like and can only manage soft military operations like peace keeping. That is why they fight to be deployed in UN peacekeeping ops.
The current problem kenyans have with uganda is related to the disbelief they have that Uganda is now a much more stronger country than theirs. Most kenyans were brought up with the false belief that uganda is weak and poor and that kenya is the big brother!
if the Migingo conflict was with Tanzania or Ethiopia no Kenyan would be calling for war. But because it is with the percieved weak Uganda every coward is demanding war!
The point of strength the kenyans believe they have over uganda is that they will close the border. However this is a double edged solution that will affect Kenya as much.
In the event that the lucklustre Kenyans impose war on uganda they should be ready for total war. The UPDF does nor depend on fuel for war. it did not reach Kinshasa and Gbdolite in trucks – they walked all the way. They can also walk upto Mombasa. be warned!
WHAT YOU SAY HERE IS WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO THINK.UGANDAS ECONOMY IS AT LEAST 20 YEARS BEHIND KENYA AND THE REASON WHY YOUR ARMY IS CONSIDERED INFERIOR TO KENYA ARMY IS BECAUSE ITS A COMBINATION OF A BANDIT MILLITIA FROM MU7 REBELS AND CHILD SOLDIERS WHO YOUR GENERALS RECRUIT.AS FOR TANZANIA ,THEY CAME TO KAMPALA IN DAYS BUT IN REALITY AND ON PAPER THEY KNOW KENYA IS UNTOUCHABLE.AS FOR ETHIOPIA,THEY HAVE A LARGE ARMY BUT THE NUMBERS DONT WIN WAR.ISRAEL WAS OUTNUMBERED BY 45 TO 1 BUT WHOOPED THOSE ARABS SILLY.
i dont know why kenya should use its very superior army to fight those sect ,members ugandans call an army.giving the NYS youths some whips nd some few sticks would do the job.these guys depend on us nd closing our boders would mean that kampala has no oil.do u know even the media houses there are kenyan so we give them a blackout nd beat the hell out of M7,the banks are also kenyan and the supermakets.sending our army to uganda would mean wiping that very impoverished country out of the map or making it a district in Kenya headed by a DC.Kenya is the East and Central Africa power house and am yet to c any country coming to that.currebtly if u travel to uganda with ten thousand kenya shillings,ur money will run into millions.thats how useless their economy is compared to kenya.so guys why would a country go to war with some sect members from a banana republic that is being ruled by a dictator.send NYS there,just by them some whips,u can just back that up with few administration police and a few tear gas canisters.id be very sad if that operation took more than 48 hours
By the way…whats up with the Elemi Triangle…who is knowledgeable to explain?
Its good that this forum has provided a chance for people to debate Kenya’s state of military defences. A lot of the people who have served in Kenya’s forces have made a commendable effort to remind us of Kenya’s professional and well equipped army. But like someone mentioned above, today’s wars are different. Professional armies are finding it very challenging to deal with today’s highly mobile fighters who can be anywhere and everywhere. Just today, I was shocked to hear that the Taliban currently control 11% of Pakistan despite the fact that the Pakistan military is one of the world’s 10 largest. Isn’t it time that Kenya military planners began preparing for the new kind of war that is emerging in the 21st century? I believe that UPDF’s experience has better prepared it for such warfare.
BUT YOU GROSSLY MISS THE POINT HERE! FIRST,WHEN THESE UGANDANS FACE KENYA ARMY THEY WILL NOT BE FACING GUMBOOT AND (VILEMBA-HEAD GOWN ) BANDITS WHO ARE ILL TRAINED AND EQUIPED.INSTEAD THEY WILL BE FACING A PROFESSIONAL ARMY WHO WILL ENGAGE THEM IN A CONVENTIONAL MANNER.TALIBAN CONTRALING PAKISTAN IS NOT A WISE ANALOGY FOR YOU TO QUOTE SINCE THE TERRITORY THEY CONTRAL THEY HAVE THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE LOCALS AND TALIBAN ARE INDEED THE LOCALS SO THIS HAS A GEO -POLITICAL SIGNIFICANCE WELL ENTRENCHED.UNLESS YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT UGANDANS WILL BECOME LOCALS ONCE THEY “INVADE” AND WILL ENJOY FULL SUPPORT OF THEMSELVES AND WHOEVER ELSE THEY OCCUPY.LAST BUT NOT LEAST,UGANDANS FIGHTING FELLOW BANDITS ACROSS THE BORDER IN CONGO ONLY EXPOSES THEIR WEAKNESSES.AN OUTFIT LIKE KONY’S SHOULD HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED 20 YEARS AGO!A GOOD ARMY DOESNOT TAKE YEARS TO FIGHT A UNIT THAT HAS NO WEAPONS AND MONEY.THE PURPOTED STRENGTH OF U.P.D.F IS A MYTH AND A POLITICAL TOOL SPREAD AROUND BY THEIR KING WHO CONTRALS ALL ELEMENTS OF POLITICAL AND SOCIAL LIFE OF POOR UGANDANS.NO MAJOR MILLITARY ANALYST EVEN ACKNOLEDGES THESE FORMER REBELS AND CHILD SOLDIERS AND ITS SICKENING FOR YOU GUYS TO BE SO DEFICIENT OF MILLITARY MATTERS TO POST THIS ILL INFORMED CLIP.YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE YOUR HOMEWORK.INFACT AND I SPEAK FROM A MILLITARY STAND POINT,EVEN ETHIOPIA WITH THEIR LARGE INFANTRY AND A COLLECTION OF SOVIET ERA WEAPONS WILL NEVER DARE KENYA.ITS LAUGHABLE IT TOOK THEM THAT LONG TO FIGHT TINY ERITREA AND EMPLOYED TRENCH WARFARE OF 1900S.CHILL, OUR DEFENCE STRATEGY IS STIPULATED BASED ON CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER AND MIGINGO IS A POLITICAL MATTER NOT A MILLITARY ONE.WHEN ONE OF OUR NEIGHBORS THINKS THEY HAVE THE BALLS TO ATTACK US,ILL ASSURE YOU THAT IT WILL BE BIRTH OF KENYA AS AN UNKNOWN SUPERPOWER BY ALL AFRICAN STANDARDS.WORLD BANK WILL INSURE THIS FOR YOU.
Uganda beat Kenya? Someone is dreaming here. A country that is just a quota of our economy; boasting of nothing but a belligerent leadership always spoiling for war; a country led by a former rebel..what can Uganda do to Kenya???? Who told you that fighting stupid wars as you always do makes you stronger? Where do you think we take our weapons considering that even though we buy newer and more sophisticated weapons yearly, we never use them on our neighbors? The next time you itch to write in a public domain, make it less gullible
Dear Mr spartan.
I am now sure that we are dealing with emotions rather than a candid appreciation of facts. Avoid self denial and focus on issues.
As you have been told mr spartan, Kenya unlike Uganda is a free and open society.
What the two persons have written here is not secret. This is information available to all and their is no breach of secrecy in discussing the same in Kenya. Our secrets ???? ask i.s.o and e.s.o May be they will confirm to you that U.P.D.F is a rag tat army that uses gumboots and has to rob pokots their cattle for ration. If you can’t afford ration for military in peace time how will you in war time??
Kenya police has been in more peace missions including all you credit uganda police to have had a brief. Check the appropriate U.N websites. In addition it is the kenya prisons that to date is providing correctional training services in nearly all the countries you mentioned.Again check in the relevent U.N websites.
We do not contribute to this forum under pseudonyms. We are a free society and you do not have to use old technics that could be in use in Uganda to intimidate or scare us from giving our constructive/objective contributions. People in kenya do not live in fear that the goverment or some strange shadowy figure (albeit with outdated thoughts is evesdropping on their computers or telephone. Kenyan are a free people able to change democratically. How many change of goverments have you witnessed in uganda?? were they peacefull or blood full???
When did you hear our army has recieved Trucks as Donations?????
I am supprised to hear someone say that you don’t need an airforce to win a war!!!! What manner of ignorance???? Take you time and study modern Militaries and war fare. If you live in the old times as is evident of the U.P.D.F Then you don’t need an airforce. Napoleon and alexander certainly did’nt need an airforce.
My friend Spartan, get out of your flights of fantacy :- A) U.P.D.F never directly faced the angolans. They withdrew from areas where they would have had to contend with the angolan. re-study the war that toppled mobutu and you will have your facts right. The angolan army can decimate U.P.D.F in less than 7 days. It is also important for you to note that Angola did not declare a war against Uganda. all it did was to send a few of its soldiers to aid Kabila. The full might of the Angolan army and airforce was not brought to the war in D.R.C. Total angollans sent to support Kabila were less that 1000. How many U.P.D.F soldiers were in D.R.C at the beginning of the war?? check your figures MORE than 10,000 in different parts of D.R.C
B) you have admitted that the U.P.D.F CANNOT manage two wars at the same time. You attempt to explain (although falsely) why you lost a war against Rwanda!!!!!Then in your wild dreams your wild fantacies you imagine that you can open a war against a nation with an orgarnised armed forces, strong economy and a more stable political system. We feed uganda we export for uganda. wait for your petrol exports before you rebel against our dominance.
C)You call Kenya police brutal?? Read how Uganda police is rated and described by T.I as well as by other International Human rights groups??? you will feel very sad about yourself.
D)UGANDA is incapable of a real war save for military escapades with rebels in the congo and against Kony. Kenya is neither of this. By the way how many soldiers does kony have??? estimates…..less than 1000. where do they train….? they train by facing UPDF. How many rebels are you fighting in the Congo?? where do they train?? PLEASE note that none of this groups that you claim to fight Has any M.B.T , APC’s ,artillary , missiles or logistic support ,command and control, Attack hellicopters , JET fighters e.t.c. all they have are assualt riffles and a few granades. Yet they keep U.P.D.F IN TOTAL CHECK. every year uganda parliament has to budget for this little wars.
Finally let it be known that for you to fight kenya you will need many years of preparation. After all the Israelli Army that defeated arab armies had not been battle tested. read your history properly. the British army that defeated the argentines was by itself not made up of persons who had been to any war.
U.P.D.F IS not a battle hardened group but a Rag tat cattle rustling force.
I hope this will shift you into a sobber mood.
Did anybody read US specs now prefer their Pakistani comrades’ G3 7.62 over the 5.56….coz of stopping power? Hmmm! And now somebody here with old data says T-72s are obsolete…! For the benefit of all check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHWHjK2VsUo
I think a lot of people are talking a bout war it,s as if they are talking a bout going to a picnic. UGANDA AND KENYA CAN NEVER GO TO WAR –so those who are talking about wars are just cheating themselves. This situation is brought a bout by the politics of Kenya the opposition in Kenya blames M7 for supporting Kibaki. Magingo island is a simple issue that can be solved without going to war. In any event the outcome for any war would be very caterstrophic for both countries and the whole region so lets not even think a bout it. GOOD LUCK
Spartan,
I admire your patriotism, you love Uganda no doubt. Well that is very much in order. I love Kenya too just as much but i also love Uganda and East Africa in general.
Anyhow facts must be stated as they are. Uganda stands no chance in war with Kenya. Yes you may beat DRC ,Sudan ( though i doubt it ) or whoever but not Kenya. All your fuel supplies come from Kenya so how will you run your war machines if you are starved of oil?
You boast of a bigger army ( infantry ) but how is this supposed to threaten us in todays highly mechanised warfare? Kenya maintains a small highly trained, highly efficient, well financed and well equiped force. We are known to buy new equipment in the region as oppossed to
you who constantly buy surplus ex-Soviet stock ( Look at Janes defence weekly on procurement ). Look at the airforce, Kenyas is the largest and most professional in East and Central Africa ( same source ). Also look at the weaponry, who has superior?
To say that the Kenya military has no battle experience is to miss the point. Our officers are always engaged along the Kenya-Somali border where they gain the necessary battle experience.
Even if we want to increase our infantry numbers to your level we can do so very easily, afterall we have a much bigger population than you and the bigger economy to boot.
What makes you think that we cannot mobilise if need be?
This is exactly what TZ did in 1979 when they whacked your
boys or have you forgotten that you had a much larger army than them by then? Read history.
Does UG have a credible airforce? You posses a few MiG21s and MiG23s coupled with a few helicopter hinds which are so obselete that Joseph Kony using crude weapons can bring them down. Will these be brought to the Kenyan front? I pity the pilots, they have to struggle to
fly them only for them to be short down by small rifles.
What about the mobility of your soldiers? They had to march all the way from Congo forest after engaging Kony’s
boys. If they don’t have vehicles how will they retreat or move forward during the phases of battle?
Please forget war with Kenya, you simply cannot win. Remain our brothers and sisters and we can always respect you as such. Let’s use our energies for other things
like the development of the entire East Africa. In case you want to expand, look west not East or South. You tried TZ and failed so what makes you think you can succeed with Kenya whom you are so dependant upon. We need you and you need us period.
Mr Peter Okello,
You are definitely a greenhorn in matters military. As for the
passionate defense of your country from attack by ‘misguided’
Kenyan elements, i must say i like your courage and capability.
You have almost won the war on paper. Practically though, you
have scored a naught.
To say that you do not depend on fuel and that your boys can
march all the way to Mombasa only serves to expose your ignorance, what about the intense aerial bombardment that
they risk exposing themselves to? Or are you so inhuman that you don’t mind offering your people to such a massive slaughter?
You say that had the dispute been between Kenya and Tanzania or Ethiopia no Kenyan would be talking, again this exposes your phobia for the Tanzanians having been bitten once. We in Kenya do not fear the Tanzanians or any neighbour for that matter, but unlike you the Tanzanians are sober people who have no expansionist tendensies like you do. We therefore do not have issues with them nor are they a security threat to us. Ethiopia too is not a threat to us now or in the medium term. They have issues with Eritrea, Somalia and at home with the Oromos. They cannot therefore afford to open another front and risk a total humiliation even with their massive resources and personnell numbers. If you care to look at our threat matrix you will realize that we have already taken care of all that.
Reading the book ‘military spending in developing countries’ by Brian Mcdonald, you will realize that you are rated very low in our thread matrix.You will also note that
no country bordering Kenya has any capacity to wage and win a war with us. Not even Sudan with its massive upgrade of its military. How then will Uganda with its obselete weaponry stand a chance?Kenya and Ethiopia had border issues way back, but this was solved amicably
with one piece going to Ethiopia and another to Kenya. If we were to go by your argument, why then did Ethiopia not crush Kenya and take the two contested areas given their perceived military might? Think again.
Am done talking. Kenyans, just bring it on. Let’s put our money where our mouths are. Talk is cheap!
You guys suck! We should be thinking about how to advance ourselves economically, technologically, socially, academically and become major players on the international arena. Your thoughts are archaic and narrow-minded. Close this discussion and use your heads well imbeciles. Not even Stalin, Hitler, Musolini, and other historical warmongers led successful military campaigns in the long run. I beseech our Ugandan brothers to vote out that loose cannon they have for a leader.
I like the grasp of knowledge and ability to debate eloquently by some of you though, like Ole Nkarei.
interesting debate.
– Establishing air supremacy is key: Advantage, Kenya.
– Battle experience: Advantage Uganda
– Control of Supply routes: Advantage, Kenya.
– Equipment: Advantage, Kenya.
– Numbers are key for attrition tactics: Advantage, Uganda.
– Transport and communication: Advantage, Kenya.
– Intelligence: Advantage, Kenya.
etc, etc
War: Advantage, Kenya.
Spartan,
I am a Ugandan like yourself and I want to declare my total support to you for defending the republic from uncalled for attacks from misguided kenyan elements.
The Kenya army is nothing but a bunch of softies who are a very unnecessary burden to the suffering kenya tax payer. The only times they have come out to do anything remotely resembling war is when the kill civillians like the did during the 1960s-1970s while hunting the shifta bandits. In 1984 you all recall the great massacre in the NE province in Wasagalla. Over 4,000 innocent Somalis were rounded and killed. This great atrocity has never been investigated and justice is yet to be done. If ICC was existent by then a number of Kenyan leaders and military officials would be facing the fate Bashir is facing now.
Lately thousands of civilians were massacred in Mt. Elgon.
The Kenya army for all its purported strengths is just a barracks outfit being fattened like pigs in a sty. The last thing they would like, is to be called out of their enjoyment and comfort zones to come to war with Uganda or any other outfit.
The other bit I know about the kenya army is that they like and can only manage soft military operations like peace keeping. That is why they fight to be deployed in UN peacekeeping ops.
The current problem kenyans have with uganda is related to the disbelief they have that Uganda is now a much more stronger country than theirs. Most kenyans were brought up with the false belief that uganda is weak and poor and that kenya is the big brother!
if the Migingo conflict was with Tanzania or Ethiopia no Kenyan would be calling for war. But because it is with the percieved weak Uganda every coward is demanding war!
The point of strength the kenyans believe they have over uganda is that they will close the border. However this is a double edged solution that will affect Kenya as much.
In the event that the lucklustre Kenyans impose war on uganda they should be ready for total war. The UPDF does nor depend on fuel for war. it did not reach Kinshasa and Gbdolite in trucks – they walked all the way. They can also walk upto Mombasa. be warned!
I want to state categorically that all along i have been having full confidence with Kenya army in relation to their machinery. citing what happened in seara leone when they had gone for piece keeping. they were attacked and they were able to defend themselves. in around 2006 when Ethiopians invaded kenya. the move was not soft.But now the confidence is fading coz i cant imagine a helicopter being shot down by alshabbab militia on the Kenya-somali border and they quickly deny the attack.that shows how coward they are to deal with african enemies like alshabbab. i pity them. the bolstering hughees MD chopper is now scrap.
Dan,
Your fears are unfounded. The chopper in question was on a scouting/recco. mission when it met its fate either thro’ a mechanical fault or enemy fire as you put it. It was not yet in a state of a shoot out hence we have no reason to doubt the army and its equipment. If the plane was indeed brought down by enemy fire then this was simply an ambush. What is important is what the army will do about the worrying security situation at the border i.e to respond decisively and repulse those thugs deep into Somalia.
Guys. The future is one where Kenyans and Ugandans will stand together to ensure the OIL flows through to Mombasa… There’s NO WAR.
did i hear that the pokots killed 4 BATTLE HARDENED UPDF and went away with thier guns????? that the ugandans are requesting the D.C in pokot to help arrest the pokots who killed U.P.D.F SOLDIERS?????
I know pokots dont have tanks,APC, Artillary, Jet fighters, Hellicopters and many other weopon that a proffessional army keeps. I am sure Kony does not have such weopon. Rebels in DRC also do not keep such weopons. How have they managed to keep the battle hardened U.P.D.F in check????????
U.P.D.F cannot fight an orgarnised army Full stop.
The Ugandan army is not only 45000 per se, i need to remind you that most Ugandans over the age of eighteen have gone through basic military training called Muchaka muchaka. please note that over 40% of ugandans are over 18.
Kenya stands to lose economically should we go to war with Uganda over some rocky islet as they are our biggest market and we are their biggest foreign investor. So war Mongers hold your horses it aint happening.
But if it were to happen the Uganda would lose the war. A country’s military strength is not measured by the number of soldiers it has but by the amount of money it spends on its Military. Kenya spends 5 times more on its Military than Uganda and spends more than Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda and Burundi Combined.
Uganda may have a battle hardened but Indisciplined UPDF but it does not have a functioning air force. Of Course they don’t need the Navy. The Most Modern MBT Tank in Uganda is T55.
UPDF may fight Joseph Kony in circles in Eastern Congo (whose military strength is slightly above the SLDF that capitulated by the Kenyan Military in three weeks) and help plunder the resources of DRC but lets face it they cannot fight a country like Rwanda leave alone Kenya. Kenya air force Inventory has 137 aircrafts Kenya Army has Battalion of 35 Helicopters. 30 F5 Fighter jets. Uganda has 34 aircrafts 15 MIGs of questionable serviceability
UPDF INVENTORY
MBT 20x T-55(T-55MV), 20x PT-76 (IISS Military Balance 2007 lists 152 T-54/55, but indicates their serviceability is in doubt).
IFVs 19x BMP-2
APCs BTR-152, Buffel
AA Guns ZPU-4
ATGMs AT-3 Sagger
2 Chubby (mine detection system)
KENYA ARMY INVENTORY
Vickers Mk3: 76
T-72AV: 110
100 High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV or Humvee)
Recce: 72 x Panhard AML-60/-90, 12 x Ferret armoured car and 8 x Shorland armoured car;
APC: 85 BRM Ukraine in 2007, 35 x WZ-551, 52 x Thyssen Henschel UR-416 and 1- x Panhard M-3 (in store);
SP Artillery: 25 x 203mm 2S7 Pion ,35 x BM-21;
Towed Arty: 48x 122mm, unknown x L-5 Pack Howitzer, 40x 105mm RO L118 Light Gun., Mortars: 50 x 81mm., and 12 x 120mm.,
25 x 203mm.,
ATGW: 40 x MILAN, and 14 x Swingfire, RPG-7
RCL 84mm: 80 x Carl Gustav recoilless rifle;
AD Guns 20mm: 50 x TCM-20, and 11 x Oerlikon;
AD Guns 23mm : 70 xZPU-4
AD Guns 40mm: 13 x L/70.
AD Missiles: BUK
Small arms: G3 rifle
So brothers their will be no war between Uganda and Kenya as we are symbiotically intertwined. But if their was to be war Uganda would lose.
let me tell u that althogh kenya has better weapons than uganda.lt has little experience.but uganda has fought many wars than kenya.UPDF land forces can beat kenya.but kenya airforces can beat uganda.l only pray m7 using some oil money to strengthen our airforce.
Who can let us know what kenya military is actually doing in somali border.
This, in simple form, is what we are doing there.
1. Robust Combat Surveillance and Interdiction to depth of the border – visual and electronic, by aggressor elements of the Military & National Civil Intelligence, Special Forces Elements of the 20 Paras, Civil Admin Policing and RDF of the AP – very good results!
2. Daily aerial Combat Sorties in-force to depth into Somalia by fullyarmed components of the 50 Air Calv.
3. Forward elements of ground troops in Active Combat Mobile Patrols (foot, vehicle,chopper borne,)deep inside Somalia.
4. Ground Attack fighter Jet sorties in expansive Combat Air patrol mode.
5. Combat Air patrols by Interceptor units of the Kenya Air Force – F5E Tiger II
6. Covert insertions of the D Coy – missions of sabotage,disruptions, disinformation, intel, take-outs, etc..
ETC…
There has been established a delineated forward line of close to 20Km depth.
We have this line as shut as anyone can with our capabilities – quite sufficient considering the capacities of the opponent across the line.
The Ugandan army is a very week poorly equiped force. it can only manage battles with rebels who have nothing more than assault riffles.
The annual budget of the kenya army is three times that of the ugandan army.
The ugandan economy cannot support an intense war exceeding a few days.
The ugandan political system is still a one man and his family autocracy.
Uganda stands no chance of winning any war against kenya. read assesments in jane defence magazine and from several international strategic institutes. the verdict is simple uganda has no chance against the kenya army.
Breaking Inelegance Reports.
Kampala top brass has just realized part of there functioning Tanks and APC are out of the country in Somali for Au duties. This has crushed a once a upon time dream of having a large military campaign towards their eastern border neighbor.
Congratulations battle harden U.P.D.F for your first baby steps toward sanity. I am still trying to imagine how U.P.D.F would have matched to Mombassa with support of 20 T-54 against our Milan Anti Tank missiles let alone the tank battalions in store for them.
we are pround to have one of the best anti tank weapon in the world.
EVERY KENYAN NEWSPAPER SITE I’VE READ HAS THIS SPARTAN GUY MAKING ILL INFORMED AND SOMETIMES OUTRAGEOUS COMMENTS THAT ARE NEITHER TRUE NOR SENSIBLE.LET ME MAKE THE RECORD STRAIGHT.FIRST KENYA ARMY COMPRISES ABOUT 45,000 WELL TRAINED TROOPS ,7,500 PARAMILLITARY G.S.U AND 32,000 A.P POLICE OFFICERS WHO ARE COMBAT TRAINED AND FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE.THEY ARE THE ONES WHO BEAT UGANDA IN 1986 SKIMISHES.EVEN YAHOO SITE ON KENYA ARMED FORCES CLARIFIES THIS.SECOND THIS IDEA THAT A SMALLER FORCE IS SYNONYMOUS WITH DEFEAT IS OUTRAGEOUS.ISRAEL WAS OUTNUMBERED BY 45 TO 1 BY ARABS. BRITAIN WAS OUTNUMBERED BY THE SAME MARGIN BY ARGENTINIANS DURING FALKAN WAR OF 1982.THIRDLY,AMIN THOUGHT HIS LARGER FORCE OF THUGS WOULD DEFEAT TANZANIAN SMALLER FORCE.NONE OF THE ACTUAL SOLDIERS IN THOSE WARS HAD BEEN IN COMBAT.THEY WERE WELL TRAINED AND DISCIPLINED NOT A CONTINUATION OF A BANDIT MILITIA LIKE THOSE IN UGANDA.THE STRATEGY OF OUR FORCES IS TO DEPLOY A SMALLER, LETHAL,MOBILE,HEAVILY EQUIPPED AND OVERWHELMING FORCE THAT WOULD DECAPITATE ANY AGGRESSOR WITHIN HOURS.NEVERTHELESS,OUR ABILITY TO MOBOLISE IS ONLY MATCHED BY ETHIOPIA IN THIS REGION.LET ME GIVE YOU A STREAIGHT MILLITARY TALK.THE ARSENAL DEPLOYED BY KENYA ARMY IS IS THE MOST LATHAL IN EASTERN AND CENTRAL AFRICA.OUR MILLITARY BUDGET IS LARGER THAN THAT OF UGANDA,TANZANIA,RWANDA AND BURUNDI COMBINED.OUR AIRFORCE IS THE LARGEST IN THE SAME REGION.KENYA NAVY SHIPS CAN HIT KAMPALA WITH A WIDE ARRAY OF MISSILES.UGANDA ARMY EQUIPMENT IS OUTDATED AND THE 5 MIGJETS LACK THE REQUIRED FIREPOWER TO MAKE AN IMPACT AGAINST 30+ F5s AND 50+ HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS.THE MIG 24 HIND HELICPTER THAT UGANDA HAS IS OF DOUBTABLE SERVICE.LITERALLY UGANDA HAS NO AIRFORCE.KENYA ARMY WEAPONS OUTGUN UGANDANS BY A MARGIN OF 20 YEARS.REAL TALK,THE DISCIPLINE AND TRAINING OF OUR FORCES HAS NO MATCH.ITS LAUGHABLE WHEN UGANDA SAYS THAT THEY RUN FROM ANGOLANS CAUSE THEY WERE OUTNUMBERED.INFACT UGANDA HAD 10,000+ SOLDIERS COMPARED TO 1,000 ANGOLANS.WHEN UGANDAS FOUGHT A REAL ARMY(RWANDAN) THEY AGAIN CLAIMED THEY WERE OUTNUMBERED.THEY HAVE FOUGHT KONY MILITIA FOR 20 YEARS AND FAILED TO WIPE THEM OUT UNLIKE KENYA ARMY WHO WIPED A MILITIA (SABOT LAND DEFENCE FORCES)OF SAME STRENGTH AS KONYS IN 72 HOURS.FIGHTING FELLOW BANDITS IS NOT AN EXPERIENCE TO BOOST OF.I HAVENT COME ACROSS A SITE THAT APPLOUDS U.P.D.F OR CLAIMS THEM BEING WELL TRAINED AND EQUIPPED.UNLESS THEY WONNA FIGHT WITH BANANA PUDDING,THEY ARE 20+ YEARS BEHIND KENYA ON ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.FINALLY,YOU HAVE QUOTED C.I.A WORLD FACT BOOK.GO BACK AND CHECK ON THE NEW ONE THEY RECENTLY POSTED AND COMPARE THE TWO COUNTRIES.EVEN WITH PETROL DOLLARS,WHICH IS LONG WAY FROM HERE,UGANDA WILL HAVE TO GROW TESTICLES OF STEEL TO BEAT KENYA.(BALLS OF STEEL).IT AINT HAPPENING.
to add on what this gentleman has said above, in 1988 NRA was put to its toes by the A.P and the G.S.U. the military was not even involved. Now that they have aquired Mig 23 from libya they thinking they can walk the walk with us. try your luck again NRA,UPDF, UDF anti-KONY brigade which ever name you go in
Guys, Lets’ forget all this chest thumping – migingo or no migingo, we are intertwined as one people of east africa and do not need warmongers like spartan and his ilk to arouse passions and unneccessary debates about who has a stronger military than the other. Someone mentioned the presence of oil reserves in east africa and esp. so confirmed in Ug – those who want to benefit from it at our expense will push for war so as to able to get to these reserves. Lets look at things beyond the mind of bully boys spoiling for a fight and seek to find ways to develop- remember the outsiders look at africans as people who do nothing for themselves except to fight wars. I dosent matter whether Kenya or Uganda has the better , newest weaponry – we are all in the end the loosers – remember Kenya and Uganda are in a lose-lose situation in wartime . lets restore SANITY!
But may I put in a closing word that should Spartan be a UPDF soldier and even better still even remotely involved in Planning or Intelligence, it is no wonder UG recent military adventures into the Congo, Sudan and against Kony have been such grotesque failures. Kenyan Soldiers have been operating deep inside UG for Decades running all manner of covert operations including mapping of all strategic Military Installations particularly those that are command and Communication in nature. When you start reading of large-scale disruptions of UPDF C & C, powers stations, broadcasting houses, etc, then as sure as the sun raises from the East, you will soon read of the MTB crossing busia full-tilt for Kampala, the Paras dropping and taking over Entebbe, large-scale air-lifts of the 3rd KAR/1stKAR into Entebbe, and the KAF ruling the Uganda Skies. Since UG has aggravated all its neighbours, not a word will be uttered either to stay this action or in defence of UG from these same neighbours. And I will be right in the thick of it, and dying to come to grips with this arrogant Spartan!! You can take this to any bank!
i wish to add on what this gentleman has said.the u.p.d.f which in essence is a political army at best and a bandit militia at worst will abandon their bandit king (mu7) and dissolve into the population.their large numbers of infantry men would have been REMOTELY AND I MEAN REMOTELY fit in world war one when large waves of infantry could be sent across the battle field.In todays warfare which is highly merchanized and technologically executed,they risk being mauled down by the kenya air calvary battalion or higly equipped 1st KAR.when this scenario plays out,we in kenya will have the kindness to employ ugandans to pick our tea and send it to kampala restaurants to be served to kenyan soldiers well entrenched in kampala.the kenya electral commision will provide logistical support for democratic elections after the dictator is gone.and dont forget to do it kenyan style.this information will get you a loan at any bank with no interest.its that worth.
The EAC countries are moving more and more towards intergration. The recent joint military exercises by the member states indicates a move towards cooperation as opposed to confrontation. This is a welcome development, there is a lot to be gained by tapping into the various synergies of the member states. Besides, shared information among partner states will go a long way in improving overall security in the region and might provide a forum to rid the region of such rag-tag militias as the LRA. This will also afford us a chance to concentrate on trouble spots such the Kenya-Somali border without having to worry about borders with partner states. I am of course assuming that calls for intergration are genuine and that leaders are truly sincere.
Dont for an instance assume that the limited “joint exercises” you have read in the papers have connotations such as those espoused by Olekoima. Far from it, there are mainly limited to functions that are in support of the civilian authorities during times of social-political crisis. So that the emphasis is on cordinating civil disasters from a military stand-point. This is driven by the inevitable momentum that the Political class has set on Integration,. Military Planning, both strategic and immediate, remains unchanged, in that our analysis continues to cover the eventuality of Hostilities from a myriad of sectors along our borders. This will not change regardless of the politically correct posturing you will witness of such joint mill\itary activities. Would you read as much as Olekoima has about the reportage of Military Games involving the five East African Countries? Please try to see beyond the painted pictures, friends!
Quite exactly Mr Ole Nkarei, what i am only saying is that cooperation of any nature postpones the likelywood of confrontations at least for now and affords us a chance to focus on other sectors together as partners. Nevertheless our armed forces must always prepare and be ready for any eventuality, after all war could erupt from least expected events as we witnessed of once bosom friends- Ethiopia and Eritrea.
Military strategic planning is not whimsical and emotional, as some of you civilian types are wont to think. That is simply being romanticised by the phantom-type feel-good one-love nonsense created by politicians essentially to give them media exposure. Military strategic planning has only one consideration and driving force, and that is National Interests. All ideals, factors, players, etc, present or future, that are in divergence to these National Interests attract our attention as possible Threat Areas, and result in the appropriate analysis of them and the development of counter-active actions on a graduated scale. Playing disaster-rescue, building bridges, or running medical camps with the Ugandan/Tanzania/Rwandese armies will not obviate this consideration, no matter the feel-good value of these activities in the press.
I find it funny people meantioning Tanzania Army, they cld not even defeat Ugandans in 1979. It was only after Cuba sent 10,000/- men and arms that ‘Tanzania’ finally managed to ‘defeat’ Uganda,and with the help of alot of advisors and money from the Russians.
As for Uganda, i pity there Cheast tumbing, with a leader like M7, who need enemies, he will either poke his nose in other regions or find excuss to kill fellow Ugandans,
As for Kenya, be sure we will not go to war for petty reasons…like Ugandans may do…just to try and ‘humilliate’ someone they thing is superior…but if war does happen….then i pity Uganda
Max Omondi,
I didn’t know that the Cubans helped Tanzanians as well. I thought it is Ethiopia that they assisted during the Ogaden war.And by the way where did you get the information? It is not included in many articles i have read about the war.
Cubans in Uganda? Max Omondi – either substantiate your claim or you risk being accused of simply blowing smoke, buddy! There is not a single item in all Studies anywhere in our defense schools I know of that would validate your claim. Interesting if true, and cause for worry that no-one else but you, bwana Omondi, knows this!! Please tell more!
I THINK there was a time when libyans and cubans were in uganda in the late seventies and early eighties as so called military advisers.
Tanzanian army is big in terms of numbers as they operate on the chinese doctorine of deploying overwhelming numbers in massive waves against the enemy..thats why they quickly overun AMINS men and rolled into kampala after a massive shootout in MBARARA.infact the only heavy resistance against the Tanzanians was in the area of Mbarara baracks where the Tanzanians used heavy artilary to pound the town and take it over.From here they mobilsed Ugandan exiles who were quckily armed and then marched onto KAMPALA more than 200 kms north east.AMIN had to flee.
Its becoming difficult to defend Kenya,s army, seem they are unable to defend their borders. how can they be attacked by Toposa leave alone Uganda army.
Hey brother,
An ambush is not the same thing as a war situation. Hardly the reason to blame the forces for inability to defend our borders. See even you can be ambushed by a little kid and you get beaten.
The Ugandan army are themselves also victims of similar attacks ( you will recall the case with the Pokots sometime last year ) so this kind of thing is not new.
Separately, you seem to insinuate that there an issue with the Ugandan army. I have not heard of any tensions. In any case it is quite remote that we go to war with Uganda.
This talk about Ugandan army has really expressed the level of ignorance by less informed civilians as to the subject of millitary matters but i wish to say here that U.p.d.f beside being a large infantry that is ill trained and lightly equipped lacks in all manners the capabilities to wage war EXCEPT against gun tattoing pokots and the impoverished Ugandan population.Nkarei says it best when he says u.p.d.f is a political army for suppressing dissidents and critics of the rulling elite.They lack fast deployement capabilities,air bambadment capabilities,heavy armor attack capabilities,any reliable anti tank system,any credible anti air system,any surveillance,intelligence and interception capabilities so on so forth.Infact i can only equate them to the largely disorganised Kony millitia only that they happen to be large in numbers and singly commmanded.This notion that they can hold any ground against Kenya army is is utter nonsense and if you believe this kind of thing it shows how grossly you are less informed.As for allegations made here by Spartan,keep up the good work of nursing your wildest illusions no wonder U.p.d.f has been such a failure both in northern uganda and congo if you are kind of substance that make this so called battle hardened force.
how sure are this talks,who really nows kenya arsenal?
i dont think that we are able to defend our nation,lets just agree that we not capable,we own junk equipments ,countries are busy mordenizing there military but kenya have never had of any recent acquisition of military weapons if not the tanks that were destined to s.sudan.
we have obsolete jet fighter despite bosting of big military budget.kenya forces have never carried any operation beyond our border dispite numerous incursion from all quaters .
our pple have been abducted in somalia,ethiopia and even sudan without military response to secure their release.our military camps have been raided in the past,weapons stollen to the neighbouring countries,wat has the military done if really we are the region powers?.
its high time we wake up from slumber and mordenize the antique equipments that we have,for how long will we be acquiring second hand weaopns??
you think ..?? military affairs are highly clandestine. Kenya has over the years been covertly modernizing its Defence Forces .you can’t expect to read the headlines that the military has nought this n that just for you to know. Kenya is the only country in East and Central Africa that can fight a modern warfare.What do you know about military anyway …u just an ordinary ignorant citizen.Back off
And you guys say we are close to an east african community govt? This talk of who beats who between two very poor neighbours would hurt each one very badly. First it would hurt international perceptions on doing business in east africa which were really hurt by recent election fiasco in Kenya and the never ending insurgencies in Uganda plus the political tinkering of M7. have you seen the recent worls risk map? Second, we need to look at our history to see how closely knitted we are. Kenya’s economy is in some way dependent on its neigbours. Do you know that Uganda is kenya’s largest trading partner and so is Kenya to Uganda? Now if you are in business, what gain is there in fighting your biggest client. Soon you will both be broke!! Do you know that Kenya cannot sustain itself when it comes to food while Uganda badly needs access to the sea? Do you know that even in the worst wars Uganda’s were never in a food crisis but their fuel prices shot up more than twice when Kenya was unstable? Do you know that even if Kenya was relaiively stable for a long time they are all below 1000 GDP/ca. when Uganda flourishes so does kenya and vice versa .So it is people with minds of school boys who will want to sound these war drums. These conflicts like Migingo are common to other places of the world and like any good chess player knows, the violent move that seems to weaken your opponent may infact be a trap for your downfall. Please dont piss on a leader who may appear weka but actually avoids war; and by the way if you have been through war, it can take more than 20 years to rebuild even if you are the victor. Ask the tanzanians? they are still asking for payments for the 1979 war and some of the things Amin destroyed have not yet been replaced. In Uganda the signs from 1980s are still there? may be in North kenya also!!
As east africans we need to fast track the EAC and to find away to make irrelevant our current breed of risky leaders from the pre-indeopence days and those still pre occupied by war. The rest of the world even rich europe is uniting and you guys are still tallking od being small regional kings. Is it not better to be a tail of a lion that a head of a chicken?
junju,
You are quite right in your sentiments. Both Kenya and Uganda need each other and are both mutually dependant on each other. However if you read our contributions carefully you will notice that nobody is advocating or calling for war. We are merely debating about the militaries and this has nothing to do with war. We after all have relatives in both sides of the border and fighting will only complicate matters for these people. Please read again, we are only comparing capabilities
in this very interesting discussion which you could also join and give your thoughts.
The EAC is a reality whose time has come. We all cherish it. Make no mistake about it.
Having said that, you will agree with me junju that Uganda sometimes displays what can only amount to an aggressive posture towards neighbours. You will recall incidences with Rwanda, Sudan, DRC etc. This country is ever quick to send troops even to situations which might not warrant such an action. They are very poor in what we call restrain.
ALL this talk about east african community is nothing but a smokesrceen for a fact…Museveni is not interested in this but only to expand his ideas.He dreams of having an open sea lane and routes to export his new found oil wealth.
I was in uganda in 2002 just before kenyans went to the polls to elect Kibaki. at that there was uncertanity that MOI would acept the results if his project lost and hence wolud refuse to hand over power..What really shocked me was that MUSEVENI was convinced trhat there will be chaos in kenya and as such he had contingency plans to send his troops in to kenya if that happened .AT that time i was working for the international red cross as a security officer, whereby i had friends in the uganda forces who even had their leave cancelled and the whole oft THAT time put on standby just in case things went wrong.therefore i was not surpried that come 2007 the same ecenarior appeared and we read in the press about ugandan security forces allegedly helping kibaki when things went bad
ON another point why does uganda need a very active army?they are all over east africa ie congo sudan somalia etc…this is all a scheme to prepare for bigger things…
interesting debate guys.but there is no way UPDF is going to ever think about invading Kenya.battle hardened you say?how,by bullying rag wearing child soldiers who wouldnt know the muzzle end of a rifle if it flashed at them?if the UPDF is battle hardened by doing that the n i can say so is the Kenya Police….seriously face it those cops have a shootout with gun wielding thugs every day some of whom even carry hand grenades these days hallo does anybody watch the news?its sad to see som e kenyans in this forums siding with the likes of spartan.Mr. Spartan ive been to Ug and toured it extensively in my official capacity, not once did i get a passport stamped at any border point it was always in n out covertly for close to 3 years.i know stuff.
“D”, just ignore this spartan fellow. I have a feeling he is writing under the influence of Waragi.
Hey guys, enough already about this Spartan guy. He’s beat up too long and by too many, cut him some slack and let him be. And “D’ is right, we have mapped every installation of military value in Uganda for decades, and the UPDF know so. We have studied the the likelihood of Conflict with Uganda in our combat schools for decades. Every possible matrix, including Uganda in Alliance and Uganda by herself. If Spartan is in G2, he knows this too – there is just no credible threat at present from Uganda. Probably when the oil is flowing, and then we shall respond as we always have done – appropriately and accordingly.
Guys,
I think we are concentrating on Uganda too much. Personally i do not foresee a military confrontation with them in the short or medium term especially in the light of EAC and economic interests. Of course i could be wrong, but chances of war are quite remote and already taken care of just in case.
Of concern is the development up north. I mean the arab Sudan and Ethiopia. These neighbours and especially Ethiopia appear very potent. Are we adequately covered?
Both have upgraded their air-forces with 4th generation fighter jets and have far more tanks and IFVs than us besides their large standing armies. The question is are we able to deal with them in case of hostilities? I know we have a well trained and well financed force, but is it adequate?
IAM a Kenyan living in the UK.i have read with interest most of the blogs here and my simple reply is this…Kenyas military doctrine is far superior to Uganda by far.AND for those who do not know…Kenya has a current and very binding defence pact with Ethiopia …which was made in 1960s betwen Jomo Kenyatta and Haile Sellasie.. as such war between Kenya and Ethiopia is unlikely.Kenya also has an active defence pact with the State of Israel…thats why most of our combat units recieve training in Isreal.Those who are old enough will remember how kenya cooperated to allow Isrelli commandos to overfly Kenya in 1976 and rescue the hostages in ENTEBE….and finally do you people know that there is always one or two fully fledged BRITISH army batalions in kenya at any time? at archers post and nanyuki …SO even though our army is said to be not tested in full scale war…it wolud be stupid to try ond test us.
KENYAN solders are well trained and very profesional and if they are given the go ahead to wage war with Uganda …it will be a short and very destructive episode.aa and Uganda will lose badly.
Karibu Pat. And you are right on most of your post, except on the British at Archers Post, the Ethiopian-Kenya Pact, and the component of our Forces training in Israel. That is all there, strategically so (the British Army), in limitation (Israel training), and the Pact with the Ethiopians has no relevance in the event of the obvious National Competition for resources between us and them – we shall fight them if it comes to it. We continously simulate this threat in a variety of forms.
since the government of Haile Selassie was overthrown by Mengitsu, doesn’t that nullify the defence pact that Kenya had with Ethiopia?
Olekoima, personally i am not worried about Ethiopia. If we ever have a confrontation with them, half of it’s army will defect to Kenya before the war reaches it’s climax. Their moralle is so low, their tactics i believe are also outdated case in point how does an army loose over 150,000 soldiers? My biggest concern is Sudan. This Arabs thrive on war but with the buffer zone Kenya is establishing in form of South Sudan, i guess we are safe that is until Sudan starts shopping for long range missiles. By the way the Indians once offered us missiles what happened? The air force to was at one time developing a missile, is the plan still going on? Risasi?
the one thing all the governments in the past and present have always got right is foreign policy.looking at all our neighbours they have all been able to form natural enemies for themselves, UG will always beef with Congo, Rwanda and maybe even TZ, Ethiopia will always have Eritrea as a thorn in the flesh not forgetting the never dying OLF, n whether S.Sudan gets independent or not both ways that region will still be North Sudans weakness but Kenya has always and will always have a somehow cordial relation with all these. they all have long standing smaller problems with each other and before they are done solving those there is no way they are coming after us
I think D is right when he says that our neighbors are monsters that feed on themselves.Technically,they have created enough problems for themselves the have no capacity to wage on new fronts beside the old dug out trenches they have been entrenched for so long.Come to think of Ethiopia and tell me why their purpotedly huge and equipped army could not finish eritrea a country the size of mogotio village.Ethiopia execution of this war was so old school only equatable to world war 1 where soldiers spent nights in trenches.I would entertain a fight with Ethiopia since i know that some of their airmen will defect to kenya and land some of those SU 27s in isiolo.We end up fighting them with their own hardware.AS for Sudan,Arabs thrive on rhetoric and bogus display and show of “millitary might.”Get it from someone who knows that all that weaponry you see constitute nothing but a show.The technicalities involved for them to attack kenya are so against them they would not dare.for example no aircraft in their arsenal has the range to attack any target of importance and run back to safety without running out of fuel.The territory and infrastructure on their side for delivering heavy armor to the where it can be a threat is so rough it will be a nightmare for them to amass any where close to us.To the contrary,Kenya has well mapped out routes on our side of the border to thrust us deep into sudan.furthermore we can hit very important and substantial targets within sudan either by our airforce or artillery without endangering them.they cannot do that now.Infact my assessment is that they are the easiest to beat.
http://www.ethiomedia.com/news/ethiopian_air_force_defection.html
man! this Ethiopians are paranoid. If the N.S.I.S has not capitalised on this then we are wasting a perfect chance to place a highly productive mole in the Ethiopian government.
now you getting the picture. this just but a fraction.
IF OUR N.S.I.S CAN INSERT A MOLE IN UGANDA’S COMMAND CENTRE, SO IS ETHIOPIA
none of our neighbours have experience a conventional firepower vs firepower war and none of them is ready for one and this is what kenya is all about.you know what i think, the best chance any of them have in aggression against Kenya is by using the methods they have been fighting against all along, they will have to abandon all that fancy equipment dig in and go for guerrilla tactics.
Let us talk how we can increase trade with our jirani’s
invade Uganda, install a puppet government and hog all trade. simple!
Max Omondi,
You are right, but the topic here is about the military. Why don’t we start another blog with trade as the main topic.
does kenya f5s have a fighting range to hit addis ababa or khartum from nai?
Felix, no need to to task the F5 with Khartoum or Addis,. It is strategic interceptor as a primary role, and it’s CAP best serve just this purpose – to interdict and kill enemy planes approaching our borders within a deleneated DEPTH into the source-country. The FOB in Wajir and Lokichogio simply increase this DEPTH, that gives greater / longer advance warning to the rest of us other aggressor units in-country. Risasi, Iam barely afloat here, wanna help?
i have never followed this topic but let me go thro’ and see what is going on and who is who?
no. they don’t have sufficient ranges to reach addis and khartoum from Nairobi. That’s why Kenya air force operates FOB’s(Forward Operating Bases) in Wajir and Lokichogio.
And i wouldn’t expect the Ethiopian and Sudanese MiGs to reach Nairobi either. Not With these FOBs in place.
Consider the envisaged Ecomonic Expansion of the Northern Kenya revolving around the Isiolo as a alternative Capital Hub, the standard-gauge Railway to Sudan, International road to land-locked Ethiopia thro Wajir, Oil & Gas exploitation in entire Northen Kenya, Lamu International Sea and Air Ports, endless! Now, see how the Geopolitica realities will alter as a consequence to all this radical changes. Then imagine how Strategic Military Planning and Deploymen will react? Exciting times we are heading into brothers!!
And by the way Felix, what you are saying could be the job of a ballistic missile. May be we could invest on a few smart ones to take care of a few hostile cities.
C’est la soupe qui fait le soldat.
I would like to add to this page a few insights. This in regards to the +150,000 men that 2 of our north neighbor each has. In terms of logistic vise vie the numbers of soldier to be field there would be a lot of shortcomings in supplies and ordinance beyond the 100km mark from there borders. in Africa there are very few countries that have the resource and military logistical infrastructures to put such an amount of men in a war field, and constantly replenish there supplies at easy. M7 too doesn,t have the logistic for a front against Kenya past the 40km mark. Within there border yes but when deep advancement is made I highly doubt. Napoleon Bonaparte said ‘C’est la soupe qui fait le soldat.’ meaning ‘An army marches on its stomach.’
http://www.dclab.com/logistics.asp
and this is what wil follow.
http://www.addisvoice.com/news/general.htm
when you actually think of it real hard, a united Somalia is the only thing that can give Kenya sleepless nights. hawa wengine ni porojo tu. and with the current state of somalia we have no imediate threat. i like Olekoima’s idea though, we should invest in a couple of missiles.
Guys, you don’t get it yet!! Let’s chat of this situation as a typical Counter-Insurgency Operation, and barrow into our unique experience with the SHIFTA. Greatest Challenge in the earlier war was sorting out the sheep from the Goats – One people, one language, one monolithic culture, one religion, etcc.. Kenya won really by default the first round, for a variety of reasons, but the tide turned when the beast began to bleed itself, and led to a closure of open direct hostilities then – the Clans turned against each other in a senseless orgy of violence the source of which had nothing to do with their previous history. Then came the Said Barre’s scare of the early eighties when Somalia expressed by deed and intentions it’s age-old expansionism, firstly in the Ogaden against Ethiopia, and later by a Kenya-specific threatening military posturing & deployments combined with Communist defense connections in a country whose history and culture run counter to all tenets and philosophy of Marxism!! How did we face this new and very real threat to our Sovereignty? We could have resulted to an Open Arms Race and and Expansion of Men in Uniforms, we had the stronger economy, better educated Population and with better international connections. But a clearly war-untested population, plus developmental priorities not uniquely set by ourselves demanded a more cost-effective and more-subtle approach & prosecution of our response. So out came the old Counter-Insurgency ploys to slay the beast by his own hand, (same demography in Northern Kenya as in Somalia ) and we have been at it since, fellas!! An endless chain of event that feeds upon itself, the strategic objective to ensuring that state-organized hostilities against the Kenya Territory will never happen. We can deal very ably with the opportunistic gang-incursions into our territory resultant. A generation or so later, the Geopolitical realities will be dramatically different considering the on-going virtual intergrationof the Somali people in Kenya presently. The Villain of the Piece??
guys,have read your responces but am not yet convince that our military are ready enough protect our country.
in the recent past,we have had an assault in our security forces along our borders,most recent attack on GSU camp at liboi by al shaabab.have we ever taken covert operations to persue the aggressors.
many a time we leave in denial that nothing of such sort happens,i understand that the camp was hit by an enemy fire from somalia.
some one once told me that the KAF has raptor missile in store,how true is this mr.olekoima?
do we really have a powerful radar in this country to give an ealier warning for in coming enemiy fighter jets or war ships?,is so then wats the range of this radar.
lastly,can kenya navy realiy protect our coastline with the antique boats that we have?
recently there was a querry on military spending for the year 2009/2010,the responce from DOD was that the 29 billion dollar was used in purchase of military hard ware,where are this equipments??
felix rephrase your question, i can’t understand what you are asking
Felix,
I think you probably mean the Rapier missile. I have never heard of a raptor missile except perhaps the American F-22 raptor stealth fighter.
The rapier missile is a British made surface to air missile which even the likes of Zambia posses. It is therefore not out of reach for the Kenyans especially considering British-Kenyan military ties.
Suffice is to say that the Kenyan military is adequately equipped and well funded and this is not in doubt as the information is freely available from many military sites.
Hi Felix,
The names “D” and if i may please answer your questions. first of on the issue of covert ops, these are ongoing and have always been there there is much on this field i cannot divulge because of obvious reasons but i belong to a covert unit myself and i can tell you that a lot is going on behind the scenes. the media just reports what its told to report plus they dont know 95% of what is going on.
secondly the KAF does not have any missiel of the AGM 140 series in store simply because we do not possess the platform from which to fire these arrows. a single one of these missiles costs 1.7 million dollars and that excluding training and logistics. however i think you were thinking in line of whether we possess adequate medium – long range aerial interdiction missiles. the swingfire fills this spot and it is radar guided its range and deployment enables the battery we posses to cover every inch of our airspace.
on the navy you say our boats are antique. have you seen the KNS Jasiri? i doubt even the SA Navy has such a ship. but that is another story for another day. the policy of the forces is who are the most probable threats at this very time. the closest formidable naval force is SA downs south n Egypt 2 the north considering the probability that they would mount a naval expedition against our waters kutoka huko kwote by the time they get here they would have lost the element of surprise which is a prerequisite in modern naval battles. there are simply no threats hence yes our waters are perfectly safe.
and on the military spending i can only comment on those in the public sector like the PION SP artie, the Z – 9/WZ – 9 chopper. new IFVs, the T – 72 MBTs, F – 5 purchases plus there are trials going on for new standard issue rifles. obviously considering all these which my friend are just a tip of the massive iceberg the 29 m suddenly looks like peanuts this equipment is there units are training them and ukitaka kuziona ingia kikosi ama ngoja mtu afanye fuje.
”D’
you are not right on the south africa navy,,south africa has almost eight frigates and five sub marine,Egypt is the africa military power house with very lethal naval arsenal.
KNS,jasiri is rotting in spanish ship yard and again they say it was built to civilian standard,can you confirm its weaponry?
are our boarders safe??
what about LIBYA?THEY have a very large and well equipped mechanzed army …am not sure the egyptians are that good when you consider that durring the six day war their entire airforce was wiped out before even leaving the ground by the ISRAELIS and more than 100 thousand men surrounded and killed by the ISREALIS in the derserts before a ceasefire was called…
I read just recently in the local press that these purchases from china are not functional or working…any body with information on this?and today i have just seen that the ALSHABAAB have again run thier untics into Kenya and caused some injuries…when is this going to stop? what really happenned?
you buy a mobile phone today, take it home then you realize this phone does not receive of send SMS luckily you have a receipt what do you do? its common sence yopu cant keep what doesnt work. Algeria returned some Migs the russians sold them that warent up to standard those reports are absolute poppy cock and should be disregarded. those machines whichever ones you mean are already in active duty. as for al shabaab well they shall continue to die in their strongholds as a results of inter clan rivalry an feuds. they are in no condition to launch serious attacks. trust me.
Why should i trust you and yet kenyans continue to be victims of these lawless individuals?we read in the press daily of this and that and we never hear of any robust responce from the KENYAN side.
we NEED to teach these guys a lesson that each incursion onto KENYAN terrotory will cost them heavily.LIKE what the IRAELIS do to defend their land.
Remember the responce when moi or kenyaatta were in power…those days kenyan borders we heavily patrolled by the forces especially the GSU while the army did nothing.
you are not here to trust people. you are here to educate yourself as a learned individual. It’s simply a matter of applying reason and logic.
so you would rather we spend billions of shillings mobilize the whole of the army into Mogadishu fight an enemy that cant be seen remember al shabaab is not a conventional fighting force they wear no uniform they have no established chain of command they just mingle in with the civilian population most of whom are happy to hide their relatives. it would not be wise to face an insurgency like the one coalition forces have in iraq.
the alternative to dealing with them is covert ops which are on going and whose details cannot be divulged and discussed with a civilian on an open blog. good men are still in action in this area. why else do you think despite the large Somali community living in kenya in refugee camps and in eastleigh and all the garisa lodges in every major town in kenya not a single terrorist attack has occured not one suicide bombing not even a serious threat. think man. a full scale military action would be detrimental to the already volatile situation.
Look here man ..i dont buy that crap about special operations blah blah blah going on in this area…We as kenyans need to know that we are safe and at this moment and time we are not sure.WE just need to target the camps in somalia with precision bombs and wipe out these thugs…thats what a good country that cares for it peoles security does.IF we are that good then why fear the concequences?how come you can buy a n AK 47 in eastleigh for 50 pounds plus a free sack of bullets to with?how come these days every thug with ngeta,or every theft or car jacking involves at least a firearm?Wake up man and face reality..our borders are not safe and on the issue of terrorism..it is a matter of time before they strike again…YOU CAN DESIGN AND BUILD ANY large scale terrorist bomb in any small town in kenya where every major housing estate has dozens of jua kali garages operating including one right outside ULINZI house MAIN GATES…wake up man and dont feed us this false sense of security.These ARE the same guys who put us to shame byballowing pirates to grab our tanks and yet we have a navy…how come we did not escort these items from the source or have men guarding these tanks on board just to let a band of hungry thugs to grab them and then the whole world watched when the whole thing went bad.. Remember what MOI did when the thugs grabbed a few lorries and guns from our boys in north eastern?he gave them an ultimutum to return the goods or face the music..and indeed one F5 overflew the thugs known hideout and the sonic boom alone was enough to have the thugs return our equipment.We need such bold leadership and not hear nothing,do nothing and seee nothing say nothing style of KIBAKI and his crew while people take advantage…WAKE UP man and dont give me that false sense of security while Ugandans are harrrasing our men on MIGINGO island…AM SICK of this .
Look here man ..i dont buy that crap about special operations blah blah blah going on in this area…We as kenyans need to know that we are safe and at this moment and time we are not sure.WE just need to target the camps in somalia with precision bombs and wipe out these thugs…thats what a good country that cares for it peoples security does.IF we are that good then why fear the concequences?how come you can buy a n AK 47 in eastleigh for 50 pounds plus a free sack of bullets to with?how come these days every thug with ngeta,or every theft or car jacking involves at least a firearm?Wake up man and face reality..our borders are not safe and on the issue of terrorism..it is a matter of time before they strike again…YOU CAN DESIGN AND BUILD ANY large scale terrorist bomb in any small town in kenya where every major housing estate has dozens of jua kali garages operating including one right outside ULINZI house MAIN GATES…wake up man and dont feed us this false sense of security.These ARE the same guys who put us to shame by allowing pirates to grab our tanks and yet we have a navy…how come we did not escort these items from the source or have men guarding these tanks on board just to let a band of hungry thugs to grab them and then the whole world watched when the whole thing went bad.. Remember what MOI did when the thugs grabbed a few lorries and guns from our boys in north eastern?he gave them an ultimutum to return the goods or face the music..and indeed one F5 overflew the thugs known hideout and the sonic boom alone was enough to have the thugs return our equipment.We need such bold leadership and not hear nothing,do nothing and see nothing say nothing style of KIBAKI and his crew while people take advantage…WAKE UP man and dont give me that false sense of security while Ugandans are harrrasing our men on MIGINGO island…AM SICK of this .
wow a bit testy today aint we patrick. i understand your sentiments but what camps are we talking about here?al shabaab dont build camps they recruit or should i say force children to join their ranks with promises of seven virgins in heaven if they die fighting your reaction is exactly that of the civilian you are if you see a fly on your window do you bash it with a stone. cmon if every threat was dealt with the way you are suggesting we would be in the middle of world war 4 right now. so lets say we attack somalia all guns blazing plus precision bombs and sonic booms and all that we shoot every one who tries to resist then what. you think the problem would be over?then we attack UG over migingo and occupy them also.everything will be OK and you over there in UK will have a goodnight sleep. and the rest of the world will applaud us for being such good people and having respect for human lives.
the sense of security is not false unlike UG we have no LRA in our backyard the ngeta you speak of is an internal security problem which even UK has. so if you were the president that is what you would do attack everyone that as much as steps foot across the border bila passport.stop living in an idealized world kila kitu sio black n white
YOU still dont get my point…and please do not think that idont know security….i have over 25 years experience since 1984..in these matters and i do not need to tell you where and how.I HAVE TRAVELLED extensivelly around hot spots in the world during some of my work ..and my last posting recently was SLI LANKA for more than two years during the tamil tigers troubles..i have seen humanity at its worst in some places..SO the point is KENYA is the only country where any TOM dick and harry or shall i say kamau,otieno and njoroge can get in as long as you have money to bribe..the basic border security access controll is lacking..you saw recently WHEN a wanted AUSTRALIAN terrorist suspect was able to escape police cells ..and again it took kajwang ages to deport a hate cleric from our country after he sneaked in from lunga lunga or was it namanga border point?
KENYANS are too good for thier own good.I mean you try to go into uganda at entebe airport you will be amazed at the level of security you go through before you are even allowed to leave the airport… all foriegners are treated as suspect and it up them to prove otherwise thats why UGANDA has no succesfull terror attack…DO you know that during the 1998 attacks in kenya and tanzania , the ugandans foiled the attack on kampala by detaining 12 suspicius pakistani travellers at entebe for weeks and deported them when tney were deemed asd unwellcome .five of these were later arrested in Karachi and were found to have links to Alqaida groups.
YOU SAY that the problem of security in kenya is an internal problem like everybone else incuding the UK but let me tell you kenyans pay taxes and the like and they need to be given basic securty.Here in the uk the authotities take public safety very seriuosly and when an incident happens they go to all the lenghths to resolve and find solutions.you can walk here wihout fearing thugs or ngetas and if you are unfortunate to be a victim of crime…you bet someone will be arrested and charged
WHILE ordinary kenyans fear to walk after dark because places like kawangware,mathare,kibera,kwa njenga,jericho,,pumwani,bahati,southb,wangige, etc thugs rule with impunity with guns smuggled in across the borders…AND when you go to places like lavington,kileleshwa,kilimani,muthaiga,karen,runda,kitisuru,westlands,spring valley etc within Nairobi, people here need huge gates,high perimeter walls/fences with security guards and intruder alarm response systems just to keep themselves and their properties safe…so why am i upset at your simplistic view that we are safe…?we have allowed our selves to fall to that level of in security and i dont think we can defend ourselves against a determined aggressor….i mean what can stop someone from driving a forty foot fuel tanker and exploding it in the middle of KENYATTA AVENUE at midday during rush hour tommorow…?man wake up man and dont let us have this false sense of security ..kenyans Please take your selves from this by demanding accounterbility from our leaders and services from the providers charged with these tasks…
so who exactly are you saying is not doing their job is it the internal security guys (cops) or is it the armed forces. these are two distinct bodies. i am not saying we do not have a crime problem we indeed do as do all other countries in the world. did you know that people get mugged and murdered in the Vatican?we do not live in a perfect utopian world. if indeed you have served within our security apparatus you know our defence structure you are aware whose job it is to nab criminals and investigate crimes you also know under what circumstances the armed forces can step in to maintain civil order. what you are trying to do is link daily politics to the core functions of the armed forces. let me tell you this the internal security minister does not sit in the cockpit of an F – 5, he does not command a vickers MK3 nor does he order KNS Shujaa at sea. if this blog was about the police and the way they do their work you would be absolutely justified am not saying you are wrong but external threats to our national security are being taken care of very ably. sending out a platoon of the 7th battalion against bank robbers is not a fair fight.
“D” this man his prospectives are clearly troubled. he not sure where he wants to place is argument in. The way he expressing himself, drives us to conclude that the following super powers have the poorest military strategy in the world. the russian based on the recent bombing the US, Israel and the British who can,t bring situations under control in Afghanistan, Iraq and their homelands All these super powers are up against similar types of insurgents armed with nothing more than an AK-47 . in his world countries like Singapore that have low crime rates will surely have the best military planners and strategies. i wish him his best .
My sentiments exactly, maybe in a bid to stop crime the US should deploy those predator drones to track movements of know street gangs, And while they are at it why not let a few M1 Abrams patrol the streets and be used as barricades to stop those crazy runaway drivers that engage the police in dramatic high speed highway chases, hey maybe they could send out a few jets to stop all those illegal immigrants from crossing the mexican border. some of them are drug mules you know.
if they do that am sure kenya has enough logistics to evacuate all its citizens from migingo then bomb the island to bits. there no migingo no problem everybody is happy.
OK ..my thanks for looking at the bigger picture….guys and lets keep this normal…may be i got pumped up with adrenalin because even though i live abroad .am very passionate about my country….and come home to see friends and family whenever i can every year.. and therefore it makes me mad when thugs armed with lethal weapons break my mothers house at night and demand “wewe mama let pesa yote kijana ametuma”….and whenever i visit home i have to be extra carefull with my own personal security.FIVE to ten YEARS AGO…crime was not that bad….
LETS discuss that another day….and atleast on the matter of migingo the politticians seem to be doing something as i can see from yesterdays press . also looking at global events i also noted that the KENYAN chief of general staff has been on a visit to ISRAEL week ending 26th march 2010. do any of you have any idea what this was all about…?… i rest my case for now…keep the arguments healthy…
pole about your mama. I would suggest you install a security alarm system. you can get the alarm unit only with out hiring a guard. she can activate it to get assistance from the security company that provides it.
Part of what the CGS is doing in Israel is linked to what I posted last September on the “Kenya Airforce buys junk fighter jets” above the posting of “Izzo, on September 1, 2009 at 5:01 pm”
Israeli avionics? i like the sound of that.
kenyan politicians are a weird bunch i agree with most that many at times their politicking doesnt help the country much on domestic day to day issues like infrastructure, basic healthcare, internal security and some sectors of education. but keeping a country free from external aggression with the utmost of discretion is commendable. if not for the shifta crisis which by the way also had proxy war written all over it we have maintained peace with our neighbors quite well considering our surrounding. all around us wars have been raging for 20+ years proliferation of small arms and occasional cross border raids are things we have to deal with we fought for our independence as a nation it was not handed to us on a silver platter with neo colonialism strings attached. i mean isnt it a weird ‘coincidence’ that all the countries who negotiated for their independence have lived in war ever since. funding a war is expensive even for a legit government with full taxpayers backing. you wonder how rebels are able to acquire weapons, logistical support and everything else that enables them to run a war for two decades with no clear income generating activities. makes you think doesnt it, if these rebel generals can fund an expensive venture like a war and live in the bush like animals all in the name of fighting for power would it not be easier to use this enormous wealth to build expansive business empires and live like kings? abroad even that amount of money can buy you a passport anywhere in the world. the only logical explanation is a proxy war. the east funds the govt. the west funds the rebels or vice versa, they have a ready market for their weapons, field practice for their officers under the guise of ‘military advisors’ and ‘mercenaries’, in the meantime they will be busy exploiting the resources in the war torn areas no questions asked. they never left the countries they colonized they just changed tact. if starting a civil war fails they could freeze aid, stop the IMF from funding your economy. what most people dont know is that the IMF loans attract such a huge interest in the long run it hurts african economies more than it helps them. a recent study found out that 63% of total revenue made by western defence contact firms is from emerging 3rd world economies most of them in africa this goes on while many african armies inventory are dominated by cold war weaponry from the former soviet union. war is big business if the west senses its losing a market its whole inteligence apparatus go into overdrive, disinformation teams kick in to spread lies and conspiracy theories many people are not aware that a vickers MK7 tank prototype wasd built specifically for the kenyan army that was not on the news, it was also not in the news that kenya refused to acquire this tank instead entering into long winded negotiations with ukraine for the T – 72, vickers is a private firm imagine the pain it felt on losing such a lucrative deal. anyway there is a lot of politics that goes on in defence contracting 1 deal gone wrong can lead to opening of a big stinking can of worms.
Chobham armour, MTU diesel engine, MAN! this Mk7 is wicked! i now wonder, does the T-72 compare to this bad boy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP-Iev3217o
Thanks D for your elaborate arguments. i stand with you that Kenya is militarily superpower in relation to our neighbours. keep up guys there at barracks ready for ANY eventuality. i just read an article in today’s paper that Kenya is creating a buffer zone inside Somalia. that’s great as it minimize the chances of unforeseen attack. for those talking of navy ability. let them go through daily happenings. its just a week since navy officers saved Kenyan sailors from hands of pirates.for those who are unaware of some equipments firepower. they can visit Kenya military page in wikipedia and can see the detailed specifications of most of the equipments in the stores. kudos Kenya military. keep shining.
uganda is acquring 6 su-30mk2 http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100405/158435702.html, this trashes whatever perceived superiority that Kenya had over Ug. No country has ever won war without air superiority or even maintained credible deterrence.Note that this aircraft has a combat radius equivalent to the distance from Kampala to Mombasa, 6 sorties of the new birds are enough to put Msa port out of action permanently. The EW capabilities are such that no equipment we posess is capable of fighting down this bird.
Only alternative is for Kenya to acquire Su-35BM equivalents,or F-15SE,SK or silent eagles and S-300PMU1/2 to redress the balance.With this even the weak Ug army can fight Kenya to a bloody draw since air support from KAF will be nil
That surelly gets my attention. But the su 30 is a heavy fighter and i think the f-5’s can square it out with the su-30 provided Ugandan pilots will be flying it. WHAT’S WITHT THE ARMS RACE IN EAST AFRICA? Aren’t we supposed to be integrating? or do the leaders know something we dont?
Let Kenya acquire TORNADO GR1variable geometry jets from Britain. One pass from that plane dispenses runway busting bombs and the plane is stable down to 600 mph at 200 feet altitude via a quadruple fly by wire system. Just ask the Iraqis in Desert storm. Those suckers didnt see the Tornado coming. The FOXHUNTER radar can lock onto targets beyond 100 miles and track 24. BVR combat baby!
Su – 30mk2, wow i have to admit that does change te game a bit but only a little bit. am not hating i have to admit it is an impressive bird. however it does take a long time to train combat pilots especially considering this new purchase i a big jump from the MIGs by the time those pilots are combat ready kenya will have acquired the J – 11 i bet you didnt know that huh? put that together with the almost 30 F – 5s already in service (yes the Jordanian aircraft did arrive) and we have a whole new arms race in the sky. am sure anybody with some knowledge will collaborate that in the event of an arms race kenya simply has too much financial muscle. even the 2007 post election violence followed by the global recession didnt do much we still fund 98% of our budget and thats not because of lack of aid its just that we dont need it. in my earlier post i mentioned something about proxy wars even if there is no war power plays will always happen with kenya now going chinese and uganda still evidently russian even with your eyes closed you can clearly see that its a case of determining whose bigger in the east.
on another note am glad you have finally acknowledged the inferiority of the ugandan army, si kwa ubaya. and am still checking out the authencity of that site could be an elaborate disinfo scheme.
kenya will have acquired the J – 11 wow! surprise me “D” soon we will be going for the JXX.
Each and every one of you is stupid and ignorance. How are you going to sit there and waste your time and life writing this nonsense debating on which country has the most or strongest military. Instead of wasting you thoughts and words trying to impress you own state, why don’t you take a second and think which continents does Uganda, Kenya and all the rest of the states are in huh?…”AFRICA”. DAMN IT people look at the big picture….WERE FIGHTING AMONG OUR DAMN SELF AND DESTROYING OUR BELOVED AFRICA ONE STATE OUT OF TIME. The next time you want to put your thoughts online, think about. My Name is Shimy and I am A PROUD AFRICAN STRAIGHT FROM SUDAN.
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
when you start having nightmares, just duck under your bed. it’s much safer there 🙂
spearhead umetokea wapi tena? Su – 30mk2 with thrust vector controls, impressive I would say. looks like Ug finally realized to put things together .ok , if engaged, BUK and tiger with EL/M-2032 can work in pair to neutralize.. This is the first time I came across this info. all I know is Sudan in the final stage of get the JF-12, waiting Pak’s approvals.
will put our ears on the ground and listen for more
SU-30MK2 for Uganda? This is serious, i reckon UG will attempt to modernize her military once oil money starts to flow. This could be a sign 0f things to come. Needless to say this act will spark a fresh arms race in the region, more than what is currently the case. As for pilot training, UG may just opt to hire mercenaries to fly these birds as was the case with their MiGs. This might wipe out Kenyan advantage if we don’t quickly buy newer modern birds.
Yes this makes one think twice,but you have to realise that the f-5 acqusition is just an interim measure-KAF still shopping for a new frontline fighter- about the j-11 am not so sure,strict export restrictions have been put in place by Russia- it would actually jeopardize future transfers from R
Mr. Shimy you should realize discussions in the vent of war. who knows with the turbulent nature of african governments we might wake up and find one day that a crazy, expansionist egomaniac has take over one of the countries around. then we will find out who is stupid an ignorant.
yes risasi the BUK is a good bet against the SU – 30. one thing am certain of if this reports are indeed true we have a whole new arms race in our hands. i still doubt their authenticity my research has yet to unearth a collaborating source. if it was meant to be secret some1 is doing a bad job at hiding it.
from Russia to China.J-10 maybe- still very capable and a quantum leap for Kenya but then has not been tried by anyone else. Kenya might as well just opt for reconditioned exUSAF F-16s,apart from this the overwhelmig advantage in battle organization and training still lies on the Kenyan side-this including airforce operational and combat doctrine. Don’t forget Kenya is raising a new ranger battalion from ground up modelled exactly on the US 75th ranger regiment, 20 para battalion is modelled exactly on the parachute regiment UK-infact the 1st company was trained in the UK entirely,these and a host of other examples shows where the might lies. This is a temporary imbalance,Kenya is a firm believer in the principle of deterrence.
j-10/fc-1, BUK and tiger with EL/M-2032 can neutralize them believe me. i will be back with some words
the EL/M 2032 will offer no advantage over NIIP N011M BARS PESA radar on the Su-30mk2, atleast when mounted on F-5e upgrade due to low peak power outputs and small radar size imposed by the small F-5, more reasonble and superior would be the EL/M 2052,but this can only be mounted on MiG-29 F-15 and the like. Infantrywise KA is superior to any in the region with advanced fire and movement tactics, advanced battlefield comms and networking- see the Ksh 10bn combat net radio acquisition- even a simple fireforce ops in the DRC forests was too tough for UG,they bungled it-now LRA is on a butchery spree. KA always includes a company of infantry in the cyclical grand prix exercises by the British Army, heliborne ops are always part of the menu.
Well the Ugandans have denied ‘rumors’ that they are to receive 6 SU-30MK2s from Russia. This could of course be politics in order for them to retain an element of surprise.
How come the suppliers are letting out the information if this is indeed not true? I don’t trust the Ugandans here.
We need to be watchful nevertheless.
The Buk Missile System (Russian: “Бук”; English: beech) is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former Soviet Union and Russian Federation and designed to engage cruise missiles, smart bombs, fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft, and unmanned aerial vehicle
The EL/M-2032 is an advanced Multimode Airborne Fire Control Radar designed for multi-mission fighters, oriented for both air-to-air and strike missions. Modular hardware design, software control and flexible avionic interfaces ensure that the radar can be installed in fighter aircraft (such as F-16, F-5, Mirage, F-4, Mig 21, etc.) and can be customized to meet specific user requirements. The EL/M-2032 radar integrates ELTA’s experience with real operational feedback from Israeli Air Force combat pilots.
The EL/M-2032 greatly enhances the Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Sea capabilities of the aircraft. In the Air-to-Air modes, the radar enables long-range target detection and tracking for weapon delivery or automatic target-acquisition in close combat engagements. In Air-to-Ground missions, the radar provides very high-resolution mapping (SAR), surface target detection and tracking over RBM, DBS and SAR maps in addition to A/G ranging. In Air-to-Sea missions the radar provides long-range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities (RS, ISAR).
Seems to me the BUK is not appropriate as a counter to the SU-30MK2 and sisters, and which is why BUK Missile System is not factored in our defensive posturing against just this sort of egress from our Hood. You fly-boys may have some illumination?
you enlighten me on the to missiles but do we have any of the two i.e BUK OR EL/M-2032
i wouldn’t worry much against the Ugandans. Unless they acquire a new and very efficient surveillance radar we can hit the Sukhois on the ground before the lift off. Two teams of F-5’s one armed with a combo of MAVERICK missiles and a JDAM equivalent suitable to our F-5’s. Team two carries shrike anti-radiation missiles. Team two flies in low over L.Victoria and hits the radars and air defence guns of the UPDF at Entebbe. Moments later team one swoops in and hits the runways with the JDAM’s and the fuel dumps with the mavericks. The stranded Sukhois can then be finished at leisure with the mavericks. All this though is dependent on the element of surprise. alternatively we could buy some Iskander surface to surface missiles and bomb Entebbe before M7 can yawn.
Yes, but this is not a bankable option. We need a more potent deterrent measure. I guess the JAS 39 Gripen fits here. I’ am not sure of the J-11 though.
Spearhead – the UPDF Fire-Force ops in the DRC was led by pathfinder elements of the US-Delta Force. All Mission Intel by US soft and hard assets. Mission planning involved the UG on the very periphery for a variety of reason not least of which was the US distrust of the security-integrity of the UPDF, which we all know is largely compromised by Kony’s LRA. The obvious difficulties arising from separate Mission-training and preparations, little interface of their leadership corps, language deficiencies, the usual cocky over-confidence of the UPDF gum-boots , very controlled and limited access of UPDF to the Mission Control Comm Net ( patch-ins sporadic and selective), hell, beyond the new battle-dresses and field kits, the UPDF had nothing different from their usual AK and blotted confidence! I tell this thing unraveled way before the UPDG jumped-off! I never seen anything as stupidly planned, probably coz both the UPDF and US-Army dismissively wrote off Kony and his brigands as simply lunatic, kill-crazed animals!! From my tactical study of this outfit, you will find few better at living off the land anywhere in the world, as despicable are they are to all of us!
check out the kenya armed forces pictures thread
The best option for the KAF that would serve the country in light of the threats we face in future(Flanker variants in the region) would be the SAAB JAS-39 Gripen although our Tigers can clobber any opponent hands down.
The decision by Uganda to equip her air-force with the sophisticated SU-30MK2s is ill-informed.
For starters Uganda faces no threat that would warrant use of these planes. Two of her neighbours i.e DRC and Sudan are in a chaotic state therefore unable to threaten Uganda in their present condition.Besides, DRC has no air-force to speak of.
The other neighbours namely, Kenya, Rwanda and Tanzania are( like Uganda) members of EAC hence possibility of hostilities with any of them appear remote as of now.
Where then is the logic to buy these planes? In my view, this is a huge political statement by the ruling elite which is either aimed at physicking national pride or at frightening the neighbours .
Sadly this action can only result in a regional arms race at the expense of much needed development. One would have expected Uganda to devote her new found oil wealth to a worthy cause and even out-compete Kenya as East Africa’s economic hub.If military superiority is the path they intend to follow, then i feel sorry for East Africa for this will be the path to self destruction.
Obviously, Uganda needs to modernize her military just like any country would like to. Given her threat matrix, strengthening the COIN capability would seem like a good option. In this regard purchase of logistical equipment especially in transport will give a big boost to the military’s efficiency. The Air-force could do with a good number of rotary wing crafts for both utility and air-power. Cheaper fighters like the MiG 29s will help to keep nosy neighbours at bay. I don’t see where the Sukhois will be needed.
Hi there, I’ve not visted this site since last year. I am impressed by the knowledge of the newer panelists, their lopsided and biased leanings notwithstanding.
To the newer members who read my postings I have one thing to say. My postings were a response to the biased warmongering entries of most of the readership here. My last posting was a restating of my East African credentials, which I will repeat here in the context of the new development, i.e the rumoured purchase of 06 SU-30 Flanker jets by my country.
As I write this post Uganda is hosting the Review Conference of the ICC Rome Statute. To the unitiated, the ICC was primarily set up to prosecute war crimes, impunity and top on the agenda this year is the crime of ‘aggression’. If somebody bothered to connect the dots here, the words Uganda, ICC and SU-30 jets appearing in the same sentence would point to a significant departure in the defence and diplomatic priorities of Uganda.
Uganda no longer needs to adopt an aggressive posture. Any person who feels threatened by Uganda’s aquisition of capacity to defend its own people needs to check their own goodwill, or lack thereof, towards fellow East Africans, the people of Uganda.
When Operation ‘Lightning Thunder’ (against Kony in Garamba) turned out to be anything but, it was only wise for our government to look for better ‘birds’. That particular ops was postponed for two days because of bad weather. Like the F-5 Tiger jet, our MIGs are not all weather, night and day birds. So we missed Afande Kony because our jets could not fly at night or during bad weather. In my opinion that was the reason Uganda would want to upgrade.
Now, if anyone is looking for enemies, Uganda is the last place you should look, as long as you are a member of the EA community. We are so busy here trying to mobilise resources for large infrastructure projects to benefit from our hard won peace. These projects include a pipeline for the export of oil through, you guessed right, Kenya! So if Kenya has enough resources to indulge in an arms race, suit yourself.
Finally, this notion that somehow only Kenya has to have the best equipment in the region is, in my estimation, outdated. Tanzania and Uganda economies are catching up, real fast, and guess what, they are largely in African hands unlike Kenya’s. So if every time another country does one better than you it is seen as a challenge, you have your work cut out.
I sign out for now.
Hey Spartan, welcome back. Your posting here is spot on. We are past the age of seeing fellow East Africans as potential enemies. We really have a lot in common and it is about time we all developed together as one region. What is more, we will need to structure our regional security in a manner that benefits all in addition to themselves gaining from the synergies of the individual member states.
This region is opening up and we all stand to gain by working together.Kenya and Uganda will soon be linked by a new standard gauge railway line to ease transport. Further North, Ethiopia and Sudan will also be connected to a new port in Lamu which will also be jointed to Uganda as an alternative to the Mombasa port.Southwards,TZ has not been left out either hence we can all see how this region is fast transforming itself into a modern society.
It will not be long before S.Sudan, Ethiopia and even DRC apply to be members of EAC.
In a month’s time we will be seeing a free movement of goods and services across the common borders of the five member states This is a most welcome development.
Spartan, i don’t agree with you about the possible use of the SU-30MK2s. Using them against one Joseph Kony will be an over-Kill.Much as i believe they not aimed at any EAC member, i still doubt that UG faces such a threat as to go for these out of the range birds. I might understand if these were bought with the Nile conflict in Mind. After all we have all been repeatedly threatened with war should we meddle with the waters in a manner that affects the flow to Egypt.If this is the case then we all need to upgrade with a reasonable number of similar birds in order to neutralize Egypt’s numerical and qualitative advantage.
All said i still do not see how Egypt hopes to win a military confrontation with 7 Nile basin states.
Thanks Olekoima, both for the spirit and content of your reply. I am going, however, to have to disagree with your assertion that buying the jets for Kony is an ‘overkill’. You see, Kony is considered a deity, if you like, within the rank and file of the LRA. If he were to be taken out, we would almost certainly see the end of that chapter of northern Uganda’s history.
Ugandan troops have had to operate in an area ten times the size of Uganda, from Northern Uganda to the boundary between Central African Republic and Darfur. Those of you with a military background will realise that this necessitates maintaining supply and forward bases hundreds of miles apart which is very expensive, never mind the other forms of strains it puts on the UPDF. If we had the resources, we would have procured these jets yesterday.
I would not take the Egyptians seriously at this point. Much as it is common knowledge that they have troops trained in jungle warfare despite the fact that Egypt doesn’t have even a single square foot of jungle, I am right now inclined to believe that they are bluffing. If they are serious then they are likely to use specials ops to carry out sabotage operations, which is what their jungle warfare troops are trained for. These would have to meet the UPDF ground troops on their own turf, you do not need SU-30s for this.
But if they used their airforce (they have F-14s and F-15s which are comparable to the SU-30s, though the Sukhois are superior. Only the F-16s, which Egypt don’t have are better), we would have the medicine if we were not caught napping.
I don’t know if I have explained myself well. Put simply, we have to be able to deploy at mach 2 and deliver a payload against enemies (this time LRA) without being hindered by weather or darkness. If all EA community members have the same capability, the better off we are.
Well Spartan, I have to correct you on Egyptian fighter jets.Egypt holds 220 F-16 planes.I am not sure of the F-15s, but i thought Israel blocked their sale to Egypt sometimes back. For the F-14 tomcats, it is only Iran who have them after the US retired theirs from their navy way back in 2005.Iran happened to be the only export customer for these birds during Jimmy Carter’s regime when relations between US and Iranian Shah were cordial.
In East Africa, apart from Ugandan SU-30MK2s, Ethiopia possesses some 15 SU-27s which is the earlier version of the SU-30. These are equally decent jets. Tanzania was rumored to have ordered 6 MiG 29s which although being good are inferior to the Sukhois in addition to being fuel gusslers.Kenya is rumored to be shopping for modern birds too.The recent purchase of 15 upgraded F-5 jets from Jordan being just a stop gap measure. I don’t know about Rwanda and Burundi, but given budgetary constraints they might opt for rotary wing machines which is equally good.
I think the emphasis now for East Africa apart from Joseph Kony and the Unfolding events in the Sudan is the chaotic situation in Somalia. This needs to be looked into urgently as it is affecting the whole region. Piracy is the other aspect that we all need to deal with if we have to protect our trade and transport lanes to the outside world.
Thanks for the correction. I underestimated Egypt, all countries in the Middle East are armed to the teeth, obviously. But like I said, no amount of weaponry in the hands of Egypt would present a winning situation for them.
A large air force is good if you have a large amount of targets like motorised brigades and military installations. In the event of a water war, Egypt would run out of targets after only a few sorties. And believe you me, they have neither the resources nor the experience to conduct a long drawn out war with at least seven upstream countries.
Now, Olekoima, imagine one country with the combined airforces of Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda etc and all the air bases we have. This country has gas, oil, uranium, gold, the largest lake in Africa, all the animals that are attract tourists (the big five plus almost all the mountain gorillas). All the four tallest mountains in Africa (Kilimanjaro, Mt. Kenya, Rwenzori, Elgon). Moreover, this country has at least 8 major cities all interconnected by fibre optic data and internet connection (Mombasa, Nairobi, Kampala, Dar, Dodoma, Kisumu)
Only South Africa would compete with us.
People, are we just dreamers or this is all possible in our lifetimes.
Yes i believe this is the dream of every East African. I wonder why our leaders aren’t fast enough in making us realize this dream.At least we should have a loose federation with a degree of autonomy by each member state. The leadership of the federation could be on a rotating basis.
Things like defense,currency, foreign policy etc could be left to the federation while individual states handle all the rest.
Man this region is endowed with a lot of resources. The faster we all see this and move to develop them together the better it will be for everyone. What is more, it will be the fastest and surest way to become a developed world in so short a time.We will no longer need any foreign aid which in any case comes in with all manner of conditions and has over the years served to make us even more poorer and dependent.
The UPDF is still hunting for one Joseph Kony and his LRA outfit and they are doing this deep in central African republic.
I had concluded that this man and his outfit no longer posed any real threat to Uganda.
How wrong i was.
Uganda is not about to give up on this man until he and his rag-tag militia is completely annihilated. How else does one explain the risk and cost of committing troops deep into unfamiliar territory? Just the other day the UPDF have lost upto 10 men to this cause. It is not known whether the loss can be attributed to the LRA or to the Janjaweed.
All in all it is sad that these men had to die very far away from home in foreign land. I can only hope that their death will not be in vain, but for a worthy cause that will lead to capture or destruction of this rebel.
@Spartan..I can c the arguments between you brethrens (KENYANS AND UGANDANS)on how u advertize yourselves on how uu will do in the wake of war btn your countries,myself I am optimistic that war will never happen and GOD forbid that It never happens…but again to me is an appreciation to u men,on your patriotism,each to his own country,for real “nawapa tano”(i give you five)!!!!…back to the issue of Egypt,i wonder why are these guys think to attack our countries on the water issue,laws introduced by people cant overule laws of nature….I know they wont dare as the whole world will be against them….they were supposed to have a humbling negotiations not posing a threat of war to us..our countries dont have enough and good jet fighters plus long range missiles to attack Egypt,but if at all they dare then we will ”let our nile flood them out”….((nile is the excess of our waters))…
@Byansheko…Thanks for your comments. However none of us has advocated for a war between the East African sister states. We are after all moving towards integration which tells you that wars are not an option. We all need to develop the region and we will do so as East Africans.Sample this:-
http://www.kbc.co.ke/story.asp?ID=64974
Military cooperation among sister states is an indicator of peaceful co-existence.
I would like to send my condolences to or Ug brothers over the booming incident. Like I told the blog members this terrorist are only 2000Ksh bus fares from our capitals. this ops are better done covertly with clean hands. Its unfortunate Ug has to pay the price for being peacekeepers. May those innocent souls rest in peace.
The senseless killings visited on innocent people in Uganda by the cowardly Al-Shabaab militia group of Somalia cannot go uncondemned. One wonders why these lunatics could not go and face the soldiers themselves if they were men enough.
This is one reason why regional countries must wake up and put a stop to this madness in Somalia. We have the resources so what is holding us?
Let’s move in. Many people as per the attached link share my view.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-07/13/c_13397401_2.htm
I am totally surprised at the ignorant comments made here especially by you Spartan. I have studied in Uganda for six years and I was never intimidated by the Ugandan military officers whom you easily collide with in the night clubs around the capital city. On several occasions I have physically fought with some stupidly tipsy officers who cannot throw an effective punch.
Is the U.P.D.F. a disciplined force really? How on earth does a military officer go to a civilian night club dressed in full military clothing, drink their arse out and stand to threaten anyone? This can never happen in Kenya let alone be in their thoughts. The Kenya military is very disciplined.
Another thing I have never understood with Ugandan Military bosses. How do you send your army to fight with striking students at Makerere???????Isn’t that enough proof of U.P.D.F’s ineffectiveness?!Surely, that’s a disgrace even to be considered for any UN peace-keeping mission.
Kenya’s approach to any diplomatic row is through peaceful negotiations and the use of the military is the very last option and its use is purposely for a worthy opponent which U.P.D.F. isn’t! We Kenyans advocate for peace at all levels. The Foreign Affairs ministry clearly has its foreign policies stated and good neighborliness and peaceful coexistence, and peacefull settlements of disputes…Thus Kenya can never indulge in a war with its state sisters neighboring it.
I would look at a kenya vs uganda contest from a purely economics perspective. Like many things in life, of very significant importance to winning a war is the amount of money that has / can be put into an effort. Additionally, morale and motivation of the soldiers on the ground.
A cursory glimpse at the two armies (with little regard to equipment -> since as someone aptly put it that its the men more than the equipment that win a war)
Uganda : active personnel 40 – 45 000
Kenya : active personnel – over 65 000
Uganda, annual budget 95 million US$
Kenya annual spending 600 million US.
even if there is a huge disparity on the date of information, the ratio between spending and troop size cant have changed that much, which i would describe as troop per capita spending.
kenya -> 600,000,000 / 65,000 ==> about USD 10,000 per soldier.
Uganda 95,000,000 / 45,000 ==> about USD 2000 per soldier.
I would want to believe that this is salary, food (which translates to energy=>ATP=>Muscle=> serious punch).
My theory holds true for most countries, the wealthier, the stronger. So the big question is, does Uganda (oil and all included) have what it would take to outshine the kenyan economy?
A good case for an even greater regional cooperation. Forget conflicts among the partner states, we have no time for that. Let’s focus on the bigger picture.
http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/14/731305
Dear my brothers and sisters from Kenya. Uganda army know how to keep secrets. The information you have is from 1970s. Idi Amin had those weapons. Dont let Museveni fool you,the information i have from my sources tell me that Uganda 4 years ago imported 85ii chinese battle tanks, they imported about 120 brand new tanks. 15 years ago Uganda recieved about 156 T 72 tanks. Those who attended the Au in Kampala will tell you that those Tanks were visible in some suburb streets. In somalia Uganda is fooling the world by sending the up graded T55 and T62 Tanks most of these were also donated to the spla. Check out how many Tanks does Spla have. It is believed that Uganda has about 250 T55, and T62 old upgraded Battle Tanks. This week of September 2010 Uganda has recieved 24 mig 29 fulcrons which are being assembled at Entebbe air base. dont forget the Bm 21,22, 40 barrallel Rocket trucks Uganda has been having those since 1986 Rumors say approx 300 of these are all over the country. Dont forget hundreds of armored vehicles from South africa which includes the Bufflos and other Vehicles. President Mois cousin once told me what stopped the Kenyans to get into Uganda in 1987. Uganda deployed Scud missiles in Jinja, Mbale and Some secret hills Which were capable of hitting major Kenyan cities. You writing these reports need to know that A lot of iraqs tanks ended up in Uganda which helped in the invasion of Rwanda. All the army in Rwanda is Uganda Army and all the weapons were from Uganda all the top officers were either born in Uganda or were raised in Uganda. On helicopter Gun ships Uganda has at least 24 Mi24 attack helicopters. And this year they recieved 18 Mi31 attack helicopters. The presidentil guard was rumored to have some M1 abrahams which is assembled in Egypt. Dont forget the up graded mig21 upgraded by israel air craft industries. Th mig 23 and 25 were donated by libya. Kenyan brothers and sisters museveni is fooling you he won’t show his latest weapons on parade as you did last month.
And aren’t you really fooling everyone else? What is the source of your information. Can you provide any links? But yeah all your information is founded on rumors. We are professionals man, we don’t buy this cheap stuff. Please reserve it for other fools around. Even UPDF generals must be wondering what is this you are writing.
HAHAHAHAHA man u’ve made my week. i’m reading this and only one thing comes to mind, FULL FULL CONDITION. are you brothers with the gut on this video?
@ Musoke,
You can’t have up to 24 MiG 29s and such a large number of attack helicopters without the rest of the world knowing.
To the best of my knowledge, Uganda does not posses any T-72s nor scud missiles. At best Uganda owns up to 152 T-55s. Yes they have copies of Chinese made T-85IIs, but these are too few and may be meant for parade only. There are no Abram tanks in the inventory.
All armies are secretive in nature. Even though Kenya recently displayed some hardware, these were very few ( 2 T-72s,4 Vickers MK3s, 4 Panhard AML etc.) and not everything was shown. In any case even major world powers do at times display their hardware and even Uganda just did so recently.
@ Musoke – you forgot to mention the ICBM sqdn based at Entebbe! lol
With all due respect, musoke is a man who need help.Ive kept a low profile but his utterances cannot hitherto go unanswered especially if you are a soldiers who upholds utmost profffesionalism.The level of ignorance and utter outrageousness expressed can only come from a man who is i some mental institution or some guy in deep slumber.I’ll just strap my boot,clean up my gun and do what soldiers do…………live in peace!
Insults will not tell you the truth. Uganda can now make its own ammo including all shells for all heavy guns. If Kenya is very strong come and help in Somalia and see what will hapen to your strong army.
The West african brother who wanted to know the source of my information should know some thing we call under ground conspiracy, i have videos available to show you all these weapons in training inside Uganda.
Uganda will never attack Kenya because the west will not allow this to happen. Uganda’s weapons are given to uganda by certain powerful nations i will not mention. The weapons are mainly to stop extreme Islam to come to East africa and the great Lakes region. If Kenya was attacked you will see Uganda defending Kenya with all it’s strength. There is a strong power with three secret bases in Uganda do you know that?. Uganda is too poor to fight in Rwanda,Congo,Sudan,Central African republic and Somalia. If Kenya Army is capable let them come to Somalia and help instead of talking. Once a relative of President Moi told me that the coup failed because those guys did not know what they were doing. The president had only 300 soldiers they would have overan in minutes, instead they were drinking and playing reggae is this the airforce to be used against Museveni?. If you dont belive the scud story ask the people around jinja road who saw the missiles on their big truck with their fuelling system being manned by former Soviet republic country they look like Chinese.
A wise man once said “Backing dogs will not alwlays bite”.
Now Musoke, calm down my boy. i know you can’t stop drinking waragi so i advise you to tone down your consumption. meanwhile let’s try to debug your brain. in all two of your posts, you’ve mentioned former President Moi’s family, real or imaginary, so that makes it seem you are very connected with the former government of Kenya. I wonder though, why didn’t this president Moi’s “cousin” tell you of the secret moon base that the Kenya armed forces has been constructing since 1995?
LOL
My dear brother. I hate drinking and ihave never consumed any spirits. President Moi had two sons going to a certain religious university in the state of Oklahoma in the 80s. They also had their sercurity personell. Iam not drunk. Iam too smart not to look on the web to underestimate any country. I dont underestimate Kenya. I know that from the migingo crisis a lot of our Lou brothers were beating the drums of war every one in the world know that you talk too much. Remember the inocent people you killed because of politics. Remember Tom Mboya the hero for all Africa when he was killed what did you do. The Luo are the smartest people in Kenya we know that. The Luo are the kindest people in Kenya. But you dont know what war can do to the country do not underestimate Museveni, he will starve but he will spend his money on weapons. We told those in Zaire that museveni will get rid of mobutu they laughed at us they said zaire had some Mirage11. Ask the french commandos what happened to them in Rwanda.
C’mon Musoke. Give us a break, brother!! Or better still, take my friendly advise and take the blog from the top on the following posts – 1. Uganda a battled-hardened etc.. 2. Kenya Air force Pictures. 3. Kenya buys junk jets ( ignore the deprecating title). What you are doing is trying to resuscitate from death a tired argument that we slayed and buried a long time ago. Thing is dead, man, no life to it!!
And as you, Masoke,crow about Uganda’s muscular activities in Mogadishu, 40 people are dead from indiscriminately and irresponsibly targeting of mortar fire by the UPDF just yesterday, in several districts in the city eventually including Hodon, Howlwadaag and Wardhigly towns in southern and central Mogadishu. Note – the bulk of the fire coming from positions held by the peacekeepers. It is this incompetence that invites these AQ chaps, emboldens them and grows their numbers.
Some comments posted here make me glad am Kenyan.
Well well, this man Museveni is a disease to my country Uganda, I just don’t see what he is doing for my country. we are tired of this man and if the elections are rigged again, he will be removed the same way he came in, his government is not only falling out with our neighbors but with the Uganda people as well, I say to Museven if he continue his ways, in the next few years we will really understand the true capability of his military.
OK, OK hot heads on both sides… this whole thread is laughable bunch of crap. Kenya and Uganda are not going to fight. It’s the sensationalism of people who are NOT in the know.
The defense issues we should be focused on include:
1. Making sure that what happened after our last election in Kenya, (which came close to triggering a tragic large-scale genocide between ethnic groups in the various regions) does not happen again in EAC. Uganda’s election is up next and we should be praying and preparing to prevent such a thing erupting there. Rwanda was able to avoid it thankfully, eventhough there was the customary complaints of “African elections” not being free and fair.
2. Nile-based water conflict between Egypt and N.Sudan and the rest of the Nile Basin nations – basically EAC.
3. Asymmetric conflict with Islamic fundamentalist terrorists involving atypical crises like hostage situations, mass bombings, short-term urban confrontations.
We Kenyans are a little too paranoid about Uganda. If you haven’t noticed, their economy has been trying to grow. It’s not in anybody’s interest to wage a nation-on-nation war.
Instead, the types of aforementioned asymmetrical conflicts are what we should be preparing for. Al Shabaab won’t take their humiliation lying down. They’ve been hit by Ethiopia, Uganda and Kenya. All they need is one or two individuals to blow up an important installation, or a crowded mass transportation hub to make their point. Notice how they targeted Ethiopians in Uganda?
Our intelligence and security agencies are already working together. And this is what we need more of.
They must laugh when they see those “cold war era” arguments between decidedly uninformed civilians on websites like these.
Hahahahaha!!! Funny! Come on ndugu,,, grow up!
Oh boy, have I had a good laugh reading these comments. Like Githu said – Uganda and Kenya are not going to go to war.
Forget whose armies or navies or airforces are bigger, meaner or badder. Lets just put some music on, have a good laugh with each other, dance, have a drink and live together in peace.
@Maingi – no contradictions, my brother, coz I am intimate with these matters. Consider this Gemini-manifestation. Our sting was reactionary and secretive, extensively spread-out, risky but rich with promise, intended to break the age-old Colonial crucible that served Western speculative Interests only. MVFaina was their response, when they finally got wind of our sting. Too late by then, nearly 200 Units in-country by then! But subsequently it became impossible to carry on deliberate and secretive re-armament Eastwards; the crescendo of noises that immediately erupted in our Politics and Civil Society groupings were consequent to these events – a manipulative pantomime intended to cause gridlock in the pillars of Kenya-Society . In all things, we must look out for number one, and that is our home country. They do the same too, make no mistakes about it.
Its interesting to see how Kenyans suffer from low self esteem. Always thinking that nothing good can come out of themselves. The west are literally accomplishing their goal right before our eyes. They want to make us think that we are nothing, by use of propaganda machinery – movies.
Kenya is very much capable and has one of the most disciplined forces in the world, period.
Tsun Zu – Art of War writer – said, ” He salutes the general who can outwit his opponent that outfight them” . War is of the intellect before it goes to the physical battle ground. Kenya knows how to fight that war, and we are proud of them.
Well well well… the SU- 30MKK fighter Jets are here in Uganda… so what do you all have to say? Of course we won’t use them on our brothers and sisters in Kenya… actually in the spirit of good neighbourliness Kenya may ask Uganda for protection now….
hahahaha , very funny @kasibante.
Speaking as a layman probably oblivious to the intrigues of the chessboard that is regional politics and matters security, ill chance it and say that “Bandit king” is as unstable a leader as they come. Which means that soon he may put a compass on the military base where it is, stretch it 3500 km (am assuming the mkk ‘s range) and claim it to be Uganda….. with that Uganda may even dream of having a sea port… 🙂
my response is directed to KASIBANTE.Nrm just bulldozed the cash through the throats of ugandans in order to purchase these irelevant jets.They wrecked havoc on the treasury by doing so since ugandan economy cant afford such a project.Are you aware that Kenya spends twice as much every year on her military without robbing the treasury?I can assure you that those six jets wont even save ugandans from themselves let alone “protecting” kenya as you put it.If push came to shove,the delta company of kenya army will knock daylight out of six jets before the leave the ground.(an intelligent general in updf will support my motion whole heartedly,i reckon).Go figure!
after all the exchanges, lets forget mu7 and talk of a worthy opponent here, after all, even civilised fights like boxing have weight categories, dont they? so: breaking news: ‘Ethiopia has declared war on Kenya’. Somebody shed some light on what would happen, or not happen to our beloved motherland if this scary headline hit the front pages.
Ole Nkarei…. your views tafadhali….coz that would kidda scare the hide off me!!
i know Ugandan army are stronger than Kenyan physically ,mentally and especially tactically.Uganda is run by generals of high command with face of President Museveni.To be realistic Uganda is highly modernized than Kenya due high rate of investment .Each General of high command leads a battalion which is not in Kenya .never under estimate an experienced man who defeated a government forces with only 27 fighters to move into power.comparing to generals of Kenya who get their ranks without any battle experience who join army without going to military school unlike Uganda which is a must.Kenyans have a reason to fear to what could be fall them………….Kenyans should not compare numbers but quality because they cannot face Ugandan quality soldiers their navy may not help them -what they should know in Uganda we have over 65 districts but each district has either 2-3 well equipped military bases, serious where can can you attack Uganda .in Uganda we around 28 million people basing on numbers in forces secretly we have larger army just dived into groups like military in intelligence, Military police, RRU, Army blue,black mamba, ……………………….. and others i don’t wish to disclose due to intelligence. we can have around 2.1 million well equipped soldiers and around1.5 who have gone to really action. so my dear KENYANS can really manage.
I seem to remember UPDF being taken out by the GSU, or was it the APs, at some border scuffle not too long ago.
Janes tells us the following:
Uganda Defence Budget: USD 150 million
Kenya Defence Budget: USD 600 million
Hurry up will that oil.
Oh God. Now I’ll have Bother Spartan on my case again.
tuska,
am not military, nor do i have any military expertise,but it beats my logic as to why a country would need 2-3 military bases in every district, seriously, and what kind of ‘quality’ you talk about with about about 190 fully fledged bases. last time i checked ug was geographically smaller than kenya, so its equivalent of almost a military base in every kenyan constituency?? now, who the hell finances that and still talks of quality?? certainly not uganda!!! do they rear goats in the villages or what do those soldiers do literally spread all over the civilian population?
kindly enlighten me mr. tuska
I am in intelligence and i can confidently tell away…regardless of the generals and battle ready Ugandan troops…Kenyan generals besides working with British, American, and Israeli top military commanders are not only tactically and well armed…but sharper in strategy and strategy execution.
I sympathise with anyone insinuating Uganda would survive a 1 hr barrage by Kenya army
The airforce has a fleet of 25- 1989- Upgraded F-5E Tiger II jets. That would mean 25- targets in every sortie. The capability of these jets has catastrophic ramifications.
The Kenya airforce elite rangers have 20 Harbin Z-9 attack helicopters armed with rocket launchers and heavy machine guns. That would take out positions along the entire border with Uganda besides attacking strategic military facilities in Uganda.
The Kenya army would then move in up-to 150- T-72-Kontakt-5 ERA tanks to move across the Uganda.
We can also back up the T-72 with up to 100- Vickers Mk3 main battle tanks and an additional 85 Panhard AML with mounted OTO Melara Mod 56 – Pack Howitzer cannons
By the time the infantry which so far is beyond 100,000 troops makes a move…Ugandans would be pleading……
Any war strategists would understand what such a formation would mean….
Kenya is far much a powerhouse to pit against Uganda et al……
FELLAS STOP THIS ABSURD TALK!FOR ANYONE TO SUGGEST THAT U.P.D.F CAN FACE KENYA IS AN ABSURD ASSUMPTION.U.P.D.F as evidenced by recent events has not evolved to a modern and decent army whose job is not to beat up and intimidate impoverished civilians.U.pdf is an instrument of projecting political power for those who wonna rule for life.Be careful what you ask for u might just get it.As events unfold,we might just see how good uganda can hold once the lethal force of Kenya army is unleashed.As far as am concerned,u.p.d.f is a gumboot army that brags of experience by fighting rag tag thugs in northern uganda and congo.Remember when Angolan army joined the war against ug in congo,u.p.d.f withdrew in a hurry.And remember Angolans also have no basics of war.My point is that u.p.d.f much touted experience is that of fighting bandits whose best weapon is a mortar.lets wait and see.
[…] Uganda Army a hardened battle force « The Nairobi ChronicleUPDF has put down almost all the armed groups that roamed Uganda after the overthrow of Idi Amin in 1979. At the moment, war is raging against Joseph Kony’s Lords Resistance Army (LRA) but the bulk of the fighting is in the Democratic Republic of Congo after the UPDF chased Kony away from northern Uganda and… […]
It certain to me that we have flogged this tired subject to death several times over.
Nothing to add or substantiate left in it, further exchanges cannot illuminate this topic any better, really.
May we poll to close this ugly thread altogether? The AYEs have it, by gawd!!
This has gotta be the best post to inflame feelings of nationalism in just about every one of the hundreds of posts in response.
Forget war. We all know Ugandans and Kenyans would rather be making love to each other than going to war.
I sympathise with anyone insinuating Uganda would survive a 1 hr barrage by Kenya army
The airforce has a fleet of 25- 1989- Upgraded F-5E Tiger II jets. That would mean 25- targets in every sortie.
The Kenya airforce elite rangers have 20 Harbin Z-9 attack helicopters armed with rocket launchers and heavy machine guns. That would take out positions along the entire border with Uganda besides attacking strategic military facilities in Uganda.
The Kenya army would then move in up-to 150- T-72-Kontakt-5 ERA tanks to move across the Uganda.
Any war strategists would understand what such a formation would mean….
Kenya is far much a powerhouse to pit against Uganda et al……
I have not commented on this site for a long time. Very funny, some of the comments here. Guys like
@ goldmanblogs
@ Vitruvian
@ wakamunyi
You guys just make my day. Goldmanblogs, wewe ni ‘mpelelezi’, au siyo? If you truly are, then God help your service ( and the East Africa region by extension, because if Kenya is damned , we all are).
Admin, PLEASE CLOSE ALL COMMENTS TO THIS POST, WILL YOU?
If I have your scorn, you have my sympathy.
I follow this blog for reasons of my own. I do not pretend to be a security expert or, God forbid, an intelligence operative. My philosophy is actually quite simple. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck. So when you tell me it’s a crested crane, I say go quack yourself.
Perhaps you are right about all you have said on this blog. You’ve just been totally unconvincing.
Pole sana, ndugu Spartan.
@spartan,
kindly enlighten me on what exactly is ‘funny’ with my comment, someone from your motherland commented that UG has 2-3 fully fledged military bases in every district, so i reckoned that must be almost a base in each and every Kenyan constituency. Now, that is not funny in my opinion, what do u need so many for and when u talk of quality, i have serious doubts on kind of weaponry you stock there, must be kuni..or firewood u may be having there to warm ur “hardened soldiers” at night.
This debate is a rather wasteful intellectual pursuit. Contextually speaking, where are the FINANCIAL FIGURES that validate this claim on the capacities of the UPDF? Can anyone indicated from past GovUganda Financial statements that supported this muscled UPDF being proposed here?
With a Budgetary Statement that has ranged between one-sixth and one-quarter of Kenya, are we to believe that the KDOD is one sink-hole where all budgetary allocation to military procurement has been ‘’eaten’’ and no procurements have taken place?
If the truth is told, the only UPDF Formation that has a semblance of an Army, and just barely a semblance, is the UGABAG 6 now in deployment in Somalia. The rest of UPDG is a Militarised Gendarmerie force in a loose definition.
In 1987 i was a kadogo( child soldier) when Uganda had problems with Kenya. Within hours,we were deep in kenyan territory with our NRA inteligience already identifying targets to hit in Nairobi and Mombasa. Mze Moi was well advised by the kenyan army and was forced to re open kenyan boarders and sea port to Ugandans without strings attached.
During the Kenyan election riots,again,the Kenyan government had to rely on the Ugandan security to restore calm in Western Kenya more so in eldoret and kisumu.
As for the fighting capability,kenya has the military hardware and the economy but that does not mean they can ever defeat Uganda under Mze Museveni. The French and the Americans had every thing but were all defeated in Vietnam. That would happen to the Kenyans. Apart from thier the kenyan airforce, their infantry can never cross Ugandan boarders.
I have participated in several battles with the gallant UPDF/ NRA and i would wish to share this information leaving out the sensitive one.
In 1998 while in DRC, we were able to annihilate 570 chadian troops in Bunya leading to the chadians pulling out of DRC the following day. Still in DRC, the UPDF commando unit of only 75 men had to rescue RPF soldiers surrounded up in Kinshaha, We stopped the Angolan and Zibabwean airforce equipped F Fighters and T72 tanks from progressing beyond Lumubashi leave alone the Kisangani 3 battle were we gave a bloody nose to the RPF.
We were able to defeat the North Sudanese army equipped with modern equipment at Bibia killing over 1000 which marked the turning point in the SPLA war.
With the UPDF in Somalia,Sudan,CAR and DRC, i doubt that Kenya can capture even an inch of Ugandan soil. The commando units back home are capable of putting up a good fight.The boarder batallions in the east can fend off any kenyan attacks for atleast 3 months without replenishments from kampala.
For Kony,he has never fought UPDF, all he been doing is kill any civilian he comes across to. We a chasing a well trained guerila bandit in a vast area thus his continued evasion.
For the kenyans talking about war,i would advise that to stop because as UPDF, 60% of the men and women we are still alive having fought from the 1980s as child soldiiers. In this long journey of fighting, we managed to fend off our friend now Mze Moi in 1987,liberated Uganda and Rwanda in 1994 (In 1994,we fought the Belgians and the French who were supporing the Habyarimana regime. These had modern weapons compared to the Kenyans today) ,liberated DRC from Mobutu, fought the White south Africans, fought in Mozambique,defended suth sudan against arabalisation,we are fighting in somalia. In all these wars and battles, i seen people die and areas become impovorished. I would want to see Kenyans experience it just for a piece of rock called migingo which they have never controlled with their police or army since kenyan independence.
Let Kenya consult the Americans,Israelis,Russians,French and of late the Spanish who fairly know our capabilities in terms of commando/special forces power or conventional strengths.
Hands of applause. UPDF has won, and can defeat Kenya army in a sec. Now get back to work!
Take it easy, VInce. You know the old saying – every marketplace has one such too.
Hehehe! Let him be.
in every crowd there is one and benjamin is “IT.” Being a lunatic is priceless.
WHO is this benjamin?
he has been reading too many blogs while smoking something strange.
Am Benjamin and am not a Lunatic and i don’t smoke. Am a son of a revolution who joined the Ugandan Liberation struggle in 1983 at the age of Eight,i was deployed in the Third Division when we had problems with Kenya in 1987 when the Kenyan GSU was chasing looters from malaba, busia,toror o and mbale whom you people mistook for the Ugandan army. At the moment am in Mogadishu in Somalia. Ask Alshabab and their terrorists from the middle east what a bloody nose we gave them today. Am as well as my comrades battle hardened with sufficient experience in various war fares. You can book with me and you come to Somalia and you see how we operate.That is when you will appreciate our skills experience and battle hardness. The USA Marines were there in 1993 with all their latest weapons and machinery but were defeated by war lord Aideed in battles yet he was weaker than the Alshabab. Ethiopia with a strong army than Kenya lost some battles and withdrew. For UPDF we have not lost any ground ever since we set foot in Somalia. Were the African ARMIES have feared to send troops including Kenya, for us we are there and we are proud to even test the tides of urban warfare. .
Benjamin your characterization of defeat as you say U.S troops were defeated in somalia only displays a a level of ignorance that’s typical to Ugandans.U.s troops withdrew as a result of policy as congress voted to withdraw from the mission whose purpose was not combat but capture of ideed.If the shooting of the U.S copter is what you call defeat,well you might as well say Saddam defeated the U.S 10 times over coz he shot down copters.
Truth be told,the only reason why Museveni’s so called army is in Somali is well known.He cant feed them and rather than do cattle rustling in pokot and karamoja land,he has found a way of putting them on U.N lunch box.The 1986 events you keep on going back to when ugandan bandit soldiers were repulsed by our police is well documented.The much touted experience of Ugandan army is acquired by fighting thugs in uganda, congo,and elsewhere which is the work not deserving of an army.Police are supposed to do that.our police in Kenya have fought such thugs in weeks.It took Uganda over 20 years to defeat thugs in Northern Ug and its still not over.am telling you Mu7 is careless but i hope one day he is careless enough to launch his army against us.Ugandan troops have always faced ill equipped and ill led and motivated thugs and if that is not the case they are busy harassing poor and innocent Ugandans.One day they will face a real army.
The fact remains that the congress could not have recalled the USA marines had they not lost 18 in a single day. Am in Somalia and we have never lost that single nunber in battle or an inch of territory. The Chinese forces defeated American forces under general Mcathur who had superior weapons and airforce but lacked the determination and the battle hardness which we in UPDF have. From the age of 8,i have carried my AK47 rifle and i have never lost in battle. I dream of war tactics and battles.
I should visit you in Kenya after my stint in Somalia. Some of your kenyan commanders should have passed through my tutorage in a staff collage and i guess they UPDF better. You better send your troops to Somalia and they get real practice.
If we can fight in Somalia without food as you submit,then if we fought Kenya that would be an incentive enough to control your food reserves.
Any war,kenya can never go to war with Uganda whateover because your generals know better than you.We roated the Alshabab yesterday.
Well i’ll admit that you are such a character Benjamin.I figured that if things you are saying about yourself are true,then i’ve no business arguing with you.Someone who claims to have been a kadogo and a soldier to this day pretty much didn’t have a chance to expand his mental horizon through schooling and world travel thus his knowledge borders alongside ignorance and stupidity.Am betting heavily that if you are in somali as you claim thats your first time to travel outside Uganda Am trying to be kind here.If you wonna tell me that you went to military academy and institutions,no wonder your knowledge about the world is so narrow including knowledge about Kenya.Anyway am an elder and am not gonna invite a ridicule upon myself by engaging in a debate about the weaknesses of U.p.d.f.It speaks for itself.Like i said earlier the much touted strengths of U.p.d.f have been mistakenly understood.Apart from fighting thugs all around east Africa something a good police force can do (read Kenya G.s.u),u.p.d.f still remains a gumboot army alongside their cousins in Rwanda and Burundi.Do your homework.
Hi Peter,you reason as a typical civilian who has who has never even read stategic books and with limited knowlege on military science, Your General Service Unit is just a banch of corrupt thugs in police uniform. I have during my career traveled and trainned in Cuba,North Korea, USA and did a commando course in Israel. Unless you have stealth bombers,satelite and laser guided misiles,you can never defeat Uganda at the moment. Experience matters in military whether you like it or not. The fact that you and your inteligience dont know our strength and under estimate our capabilities will cause your anihilation just like the French in Vietnam. With an alternative route to the Indian Ocean through Tanzania,you will never defeat us. That is simple but hard for you to accept just like African step mothers to their step children.
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Benjamin, give it a rest already, Kijana!! You have made your ”point”, though no-one seems to be buying in.
Move along, bra.
@ Benjamin – let me assume you are the one you say you are.
Let me highlight:
“In 1994, we fought the Belgians and the French”: the Belgians? The ones who turned their back on Mze Habyarimana and conspired with the Americans to bring the RPF to power? The French? Who had 20 military advisors in the country?
If you fought “the French” in Rwanda, it will be 100% fair to say that the Shabaab in Mogadishu are now fighting “Americans and French” – they are a wee bit more than 20 these days!
But let me make no mistake – the NRA did fight in Rwanda. Col. Ochora was there with a whole battalion of Acholi troops. And Salim Saleh was at Kagame’s HQ on a semi-permanent basis.
We all know there was no RPF “rebellion” or “insurgency” or “Rwandan civil war”, but an NRA aggression against Rwanda. Don’t forget Kagame or RPF will not be there forever, and one day the history of that country will be re-written.
“liberated DRC from Mobutu” – Mobutu was dying from prostate cancer in Paris when the tall thin man and his half-brother to the East set out to “liberate” that poor country, killing its chances of a democratic transition and throwing it into an abyss of destruction and mayhem. The Congolese do remember this “liberation” too well. I’m just from Kinshasa and can tell you more if you like.
“We stopped the Angolan and Zimbabwean airforce equipped F Fighters and T72 tanks” – these guys were never interested in fighting. It was not their war. They even court-martialled several Zimbabwean officers because of that. The only people who seriously fought UPDF and RPA in DRC were the Rwandan Hutus who had hundreds of thousands of their kin killed in the DRC. They were however later betrayed by the Kabilas.
Bother to tell which “F fighters” by the way?
“For Kony,he has never fought UPDF” And WHY HASN’T UPDF FOUGHT KONY THEN?
“Let Kenya consult the Americans,Israelis,Russians,French and of late the Spanish”. Oh yeah, let them do it! I could arrange a few interviews but I’m sure the Kenyans will manage without me!
“We roated the Alshabab yesterday” – who’s trying to BS who here? Al-Shabaab have been planning to withdraw from Mogadishu since May, moving their foreign fighters, leaders, TV station even, causing Bakara and Bacad traders to relocate to Elasha. You can’t seriously fight a much better equipped 9,000-strong force packed in a 6x6km area. They even launched a “head fake” attack on the night of withdrawal and managed without any losses leaving behind their safe houses.
And we know all too well how AMISOM conducted its recent offensives – using tanks to push through the buildings into the Al-Shabaab lines causing their flanks to withdraw, too, in order to avoid being cut off. Too bad these “liberated” areas now look like a lunar landscape!
I admit AMISOM has been holding ground against Al-Shabaab in Mog but everything else would be shameful considering the Youth’s military weakness and the fact that AMISOM had 9,000 troops on a 12km frontline. I remember, we were once trained to hold a 3km frontilne with a bn of 500 troops UNDER A NUCLEAR ENVIRONMENT.
But “not lost any ground” is an exaggeration, isn’t it? Didn’t AMISOM lose to Shabaab its position near the Bacad market as recently as July 29th?
And, an absolute gem: “During the Kenyan election riots,again,the Kenyan government had to rely on the Ugandan security to restore calm in Western Kenya”. Which is very much appreciated by the Kenyans of course. I’m afraid that if plain-clothed UPDF soldiers pop up in Kenya during the COMING election they’ll will be dragged along the streets of Kisumu much like they are in Mog. I hope they will at least remember not to take any ID’s with them.
@ Mugwiira, can we just let these arguments die. Whenever you give them a response you prolong the debate. Anyway I know you can’t let a boast coming from over here go unchallenged.
As usual, I am in awe of your knowledge of Mogadishu and your admiration for the ‘youths’ and their tactics.
Ok, let’s not prolong it but please do not impute that I “admire” the “youths” as an organization or their ideology; because I don’t and have not given you a reason to think so.
I don’t think though they are all evil and only control the population via oppression because it’s impossible, more so in a country like Somalia.
I am also convinced that UPDF should not be in Somalia.
From tactical standpoint, sometimes I ask myself what I would do in Al-Shabaab’s place, and then I find them doing exactly that thing, like in a damn guerrilla textbook. I can’t fail to give them respect in such cases.
Well said. I rest my case.
The Ugandan Army is an adventuristic militia outfit headed by a Museveni who fantasizes about war, and thinks ‘testing the waters’ means you are strong. Museveni, Ugandans & the Ugandan Army are a barking dog. Throwing pebbles at an Elephant harms him in no way.
Museveni and Uganda does not have anything that can recognize them in the world map. Kenya is more economically stable, has a quality, well and highly educated population with multiple world organizations recognizing Kenya as a hub in the world. Uganda on the other hand is next to zero. So, leaders of such countries use aggression more to try and show superiority, bcoz they have nothing else to show.
Kenya has well trained, developed and modern military with ease of deployment, maneuverability, fire-power and multiple Infantry, engineering, armoured etc brigades complete with all reconnaissance, combat, medical, engineering, logistical, cavalry etc units. Remember that we have a well trained Army, Air force and Navy all jointly and separately with an offensive capability.
In the military, we have a chain of command, and war depends on the patience of its commander-in-chief. The military does not just wake up and throw bombs at anyone simply bcoz you are showing aggression. If you have been to Kenya, u’ll probably have realized that a military (Army, Air force and Navy) officer does not walk around carrying any weapon, notwithstanding the fact that it is well equipped with modern military hardware. However, they effectively quell even the most severe and threatening situations unarmed. I dare Museveni to openly declare war towards Kenya.
Ugandans should be very thankful that Kenya’s President in a level-headed man who is very, very patient with external aggressors. All that men in the Kenya’s Barracks await is an order to send Ugandans back into the stone-age.
The Kenyan Defense Force is beyond mere aggression. It gives you ample time to reform yourself, so that by the time they are called in to conduct the reforms….you will have yourself to blame.
Ugandans, be careful what you wish for. You are biting more than you can chew. It is important that Museveni and other presidents like Mugabe take lessons from Muamar Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein.
With all your second-hand military hardware, ill-trained personnel and child soldiers, it will take Kenya less than an hour to crush you.
It might take the intervention of the US Army to come to your rescue when Kenya decides to turn Uganda into a fire ball.
This is more than a fact
Having fought several wars cannot make you better than others,training matters and in this era of technology,wars are brainwork. Those working in iraq are manning gates and escorting civilian contractors and not fighting,dont forget kenyans are there too working for the same company (SOC) so dont rule kenyan soldiers out.
Fighting several wars does actually give you the experience to fight and win another war and if you get the right information coming from the Kenya vs Al shabaab war theatre, you realize that Kenya is learning war the hard way.
Supply convoys are being attacked on a daily basis and bar Major Chirchir`s daily rumblings, the casualties are much higher than the government is admitting. And this is the lesson they are learning-Do not move on trucks without anti-ambush elements.
There is also this so callec show of force in the region that the KDF is boasting about, but as somebody who works with the UPDF, i know that UPDF has much more capacity than people on this forum are giving it. This runs accross the infantry, the motorised brigades, the Tank Divisions, Air defence and Air force.
The so called show of force includes lightly armed MD500, but do they compare with the heavily armed UG gunships? and leave this Wikipedia thing of Uganda having just one. In fact, there are squadrons of those machines here.
Then the light attack F5 jets-do they compare with the brand new SU-30s?
The so called Vickers MBT is actually also old-1960s piece, which is similar to some of the T-62s tanks that most regional armies have. But also note that UG and Ethiopia have got T-72 tanks as well.
Now about the force numbers. You will soon realize that you cannot fight a counter insurgency with just 24,000 soldiers!
By the way, what Kenya is doing, by entering a neighboring country and grabbing parts of it, Uganda has done several times accross the region.
Its very interesting the views that all of u have posted and the arrogance of Kenyans pops up again as Ugandans do in reference to Rwandese.Our Kenyan brothers here go on about their budget and so on,It is a fact that Kenya spends more on its defence sector than Uganda,but the truth be told,its all on paper,Kenya operates F-5 and F-5II airfcraft in the attack capacity.These are post vietnam era aircraft which the US only uses in recon capacity and i would believe they have no more than 10 in operational capacity so please dont tell us about continous training with US personnel.Why would the US be training u guys to use post-vietnam aircraft?it simply doesnt make sense. The Ugandan Airfoce operaates up to 8 Mig-21B aircraft which were upgraded at the IAI to MIG 29 status and are alot more lethal than the kenyan airfoce,The same airfoce is taking delivery of 8 SU-30MK2 aircraft which dont need alot of introduction. Please get ur facts correct about Uganda’s airforce.
I see continued reference to the Vickers MK-3 tank which is only used by 4 countries worldwide and is considered a second generation tank compared to the T-72 and T-90 tanks operated by the Ugandan army.By the way,please note that the T-55 is the most versatile tank for the african terrain which explains why many African states are operating these tanks to date. Someone mentioned that the Kenyan army operates M-! Abrams tank,I would like to categorically state that its operated by the American,Australian,Iraqi and Saudi armies exclusively.Please avoid telling lies.
In reference to experience,I would like to say that the Ugandan army has alot more battle experince than the Kenyan army.I see pple saying Uganda spent 20 years fighting the LRA which is totally true,but look into the factors that delayed the quelling of this war,corruption might be one truelly,however,one the bright side,with rotations,most Ugandan combat troops became battle hardened,look at the way ADF were taken out within days of the 4th division being involved. U guys refer to Somalia,but wat u dont realise is that Ugandan troops in rotation are gaining urban combat tactics. When Kenya invaded Somalia recently,it honestly wasnt a well thought out plan of action becourse within days of the assult,they got bogged down in mud when the rainy season started.
I would like to conclude for now by saying,i dont believe those 2 gentlemen calling themselves Kenyan army officers and they come on to this blog and disclose information about the Kenyan army in total disregard for military code of conduct.It is not allowed in any military force to come out and make such statements unless u are the official spokesperson. All in all,war wont solve any of our prblems and to u claiming we need Kenya for fuel,please think again coz that pipeline to Eldoret might be used by Kenya to import from Uganda in the next 2 years,there is no way u can bring in ur so called airborne units to Entebbe and Kampala.in case u havent noticed,Ugandans arent really as soft as u think!
Yes. The mighty Kenyans have not only been ‘defeated by mud’ but they are also killing their own people both at the ocean and on land. Yesterday i read a Daily Nation story about how the KDF killed its own taxpayers after mistaking them for Al shabaab. i remmember on that day, Major Chirchir emphatically claimed that the ‘mighty’ Kenya navy had destroyed an Al shabaab gun boat and killed 18 of them! it turns out that was not true. The mighty regional army had instead killed its own, very innocent citizens and destroyed a famous fishing boat!
Am 100% sure u dont know WHAT UR ARE TALking about
My biggest worry for the Kenyans is that they do not know Uganda`s real military strength! that would be a very big,big, big worry for me if i was Kenyan.
does uganda have an army apart from those sect members combined with child soldiers they call UPDF.these gys are making soo much noise out of ignorance.our airforce (they dont have air force) would make them a location in kenya headed by a chief within 45 minutes.id consider that a waste of money coz NYS if given some very good whips can do the job in about 8 hours of transporting them to kampala
By the way, do you now accept that what we have all along been saying about this Kenyan military ineptdness is true? How can such a strong seasoned army be bogged down by mere mud? Who did the intelligence before the Somalia sojourn? Do you know that they have killed more civilians in Somalia than Al shabaabs? Do you know that the main reason they are not advancing is because they realized that they need more men to leave in the rear? Do you know that they are now hastily training and remodelling APs to go and do this rear coverage job?
Benjamin why dont you talk of the time shebab drove landcrusers into your camps in mogadish and blwe the entier camp fulstop i will never talk of the dead please tell the mzee to buy transport aircrafts no Algerians always,build beter hospitals no kenyans always.and mogadishu is strange to you not kenyans over.
Now ugandans lets introduce some level of sanity in this blog.First even if all the allegations about the U.p.d.f strength (former child militia that has failed to evolve to a modern army) are true so what?Ok.for the sake of feeling good,ugandans have everything they claim here!T 90,T72,Migs and intercontinental ballistic missiles!Are u happy Kato?
Lets make some information clear here.That Mark 3 tanks were made in the 60s is such a stupid allegation even idiots know they were made in the 80s.The idea that U.p.d.f operates gun ships is really outrageous.The 5 mig 24 gunship they had only one is in service and its reliability is questionable.Kenya MD 500 (37 of them) are armed with tank killing misssiles(maverick) and despite being smaller have the capabilities of a larger gunship and cost even less.Wise way for an economy like ours.Dont forget the Z9 which are much more capable and would wrech havoc on the just upgraded Ugandan lyrics (t55s.) in service in crazy town ( mogadisho).
the much touted experience of u.p.d.f is absurd.To us members of K.d.f,venturing in the bushes and fighting thugs for 2 decades and failing to crush them no matter how you call it is failure.They just enlisted uncle sam to help 20 years after failing to do so.Does their intelligence work at all if they have any?
Again to us U.p.d.f is a political army thats Museveni uses to suppress political dissent and to rape and pillage minerals and firewood deep in congo!
The 6 jets they received wont save them even from themselves.they already falling from the skies of entebbe without a threat from anybody.Who is supposed to be threatened by 6 jets? Sudan ,Ethiopia have more and they cannot threaten anybody.Kenya has the best anti tank and anti aircraft defense system in the region and am even certain incase of hostilities with Uganda,those 6 pieces will be blown off before they leave their bunkers in entebbe.
Watch this space.We are Kenyans all the time!
Go to eastafrican.userboard.net and read what sane guys have posted.Lot of video clips too about operation linda Nchi.
aS I SAID EARLIER, IF I WAS A kENYAN, I WOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THE LACK OF REAL INTELLIGENCE BY THE kENYANS ABOUT uGANDA`S CAPABILITIES. fOR EXAMPLE, YOU CLAIM HERE THAT ONLY ONE mi-24 OF COURSE YOU WRONGLY SAID mig-24), BUT THE TRUTH IS uGANDA HAS MORE THAN A SQUADRON OF THESE DEADLY BIRDS. yOU also claim that Uganda has got only six jets? do you think they did not have jets before they bought the six? the answer is they had more than a squadron of MIG-21s upgraded to MIg-29 status by Ial (this is open information) and Mig-23s. So in terms of fighter jets, Uganda has a variety compared to Kenya`s F-5s.
You mention Mogadishu with jesty, but since the Kenyan army is in Somalia, you will very soon realize that Al shabaab is not a joking matter and that Uganda has managed to capture Mogadishu from them because the UPDF and AMISISOM is a good fighting force. Amisom using 9,000 soldiers has managed to take over Mogadishu compared to 25,000 Americans who had to detour.
To the contrary, the Kenyans swept through bushes, using all their weapons including planes but they have in over two months failed to capture a town worthy mentioning!
en.www.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scud-launcher-scotland1.jpg#_
yes, lately it was announced for presence of oil in Kenya but oil was discovered in Kenya almost 10 years ago. This was due to insecurity threat and Kenyan elites had to embark on a strategic master plan that would keep the insecurity issue in check. During that time, the only country that posed a major threat was Sudan and hence the formation of s.Sudan in a bid to create a buffer zone against the threat. This can be attested by chronological order of events as oil was announced some months later after the formation of s.Sudan which was a well crafted work by the NSIS presented to the elites as per request.
Moreever,Kenya has in the recent years upgraded its military with major big toys and adopted modern war plans revised from recent wars around the globe ..e.g.Kenya did a detailed research on U.S based “Operation Anaconda” launched in Afaganistan by U.S forces against the Taliban in landscaps farmiliar in Somalia and this is apparent to the way Kenya is handling al’shabab in Somalia. see
en.www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anaconda#_
a news paper pricing @ Ksh
50 in kenya goes for Ush 1000 in Uganda , what does that tell you.
Kenya vs Uganda wouldn’t qualify as a war but a mild operation waged by Kenya for test ups.
in conclusion,at the very top I’ve posted a link to an LRBM Scud missle which are in possession by the Kenyan Army and it was prooved for existance during Kenya’s launch of the New CONSTITUTION where museveni was in attendance capable of been launched from Mombassa to the heart of Uganda in less than twenty minutes with deadly warheads of 1000m blast radius tremendously crippling uganda giving Kenya the Upper hand and remember.. that’s just a single scud missle.
apart from south africa,Egypt and Nigeria …Kenya is the only country that can fight a modern warfare which includes Special forces which is something Ugandans have never heard of.
By the way, do you think that the six jets were bought in isolation of other support elements including a new radar system and air-defence elements for you to think that they will be hit on the ground? Carry out more research.
kATO WHAT 25,000 AMERICANS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT WAS THE MANDATE AND MISSION OBJECTIVE OF THE AMERICANS.IT MAKES ME SICK WHEN SOMEONE SUGGESTS THAT AMERICANS WERE DEFEATED IN MOGADISHU JUST BECAUSE 9 AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE KILLED AND DRAGGED ON THE STREETS OF THIS CRAZY TOWN.
I WATCHED A CLIP OF U.P.D.F BEING TRAINED READY TO DEPLOY AND I WONDERED WHATS WRONG WITH THE DICTATOR IN KAMPALA.TO BREAK IT INTO ITS LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR,U.P.D.F SOLDIERS SHARE MUD HUTS,WEAR GUMBOOTS AND THE FOOD IS BEING IS AWFULLY BAD.THEY USING SPADES TO AUGER FOOD.IN KENYA WE USE SPADES TO AUGER COW DUNG IN THE GARDEN! WHAT ARE THE PRIORITIES OF THE U.P.D.F? HELL MAN,I WILL POST THAT CLIP AND YOU WILL SEE HOW DEPRIVED U.P.D.F IS COMPARED TO THEIR COUNTERPARTS IN KENYA.FOR EVERY DOLLAR SPENT ON U.P.D.F EITHER IN TRAINING,EQUIPMENT OR EVEN MAINTENANCE ,K.D.F SPENDS 14 TIMES THAT AMOUNT FOR THE SAME PURPOSE.THAT IN ITSELF BASICALLY PROVIDES A GREAT DIVIDE THAT AT THIS MOMENT STOPS ME FROM DEBATING A GUY WHO IN MY PERSPECTIVE IS POORLY EQUIPPED,POORLY MAINTAINED,POORLY FED,POORLY TRAINED,POORLY MOTIVATED,AND POORLY INFORMED.MU7 SHOULD BE ASHAMED FOR RAIDING PUBLIC COFFERS WHILE HIS SOLDIERS ARE STARVING JUST TO PRIDE HIS EGO THAT HE HAS MODERN JETS.I GET IT.UGANDA IS MORE POORER,SOLDIERS ARE MORE HUNGRY,6 JETS WITH NO INFRASTRUCTURE ARE ALREADY FALLING FROM THE SKIES,MU7 IS TIGHTENING HIS CHOKE HOLD ON UGANDA,DAMN YOU GUYS SHOULD CHECK YOUR PRIORITIES!
What country on earth would but useless jets for billions of shillings while its “best” and soon to be deployed soldiers live in these conditions.They should have a field trip in Kenya and check out our camps.It will be heaven for them.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QZDa0WXEX5c
And this poor soldier is saying life is good.What ignorance does this reporter display when she says that the lives of these soldiers is like “those of British soldiers?” Go figure!
look at those poor updf and tell me that u have balls to debate k.d.f.
It is funny that you have reffered to a clip captured during a ceremonial pas-out of Mogadishu bound troops, that was played for less than a minute as the real training resume of these troops. That is funny indeed. Mind you, these are regular soldiers already trained for 12 months to go to war, so i wonder how a a clip of less than a minute can give you conclusions.
You Kenyans are fond of calling the UPDF a gum-boot army, and my understanding is that you do not know the kind of gum-boots the UPDF uses. They are not your regular farm gum-boots, they are as light as regular army boots and easier to maintain. If you don`t know, each of these soldiers has got other types of boots, but when it comes to staying in the bushes longer and crossing rivers in the jungles, the gum-boots have proved more effective.
You have talked about soldiers sleeping in mud-huts, which is true, but only in operational areas were they are not set to stay longer, like in the bushes of the Congo, the CAR and some detatchments in Acholi . I bet you don`t know
that massive construction of of barracks has been on going accross the country!
You boast about how a Kenyan soldier is pampered since he receives 14 times more funding than the Ugandan counter part, but my question is, where is the value for that money? And i call upon Kenyans to ask this question too. How can such pampered, well supplied and marvelously trained soldier fail to cature just one town worthy mentioning in three months of combat in Somalia? Why is it that the so called highly trained soldier continues to needlesly take casualties during movement between the border and to villages like Afdow? Every other day, either a soldier or policeman is hit both inside Kenya and Somalia-why cant that soldier stop these attacks? Why did those so called well trained soldiers kill fellow Kenyans along the coast near Ras Komboni in the guise of killing Al shabaabs.
The answer to those questions is very simple. It lies in the understanding of war. You may have all those machines, the planes (that have done more killing of civilians than killing Al shabaabs) but without the right training to handle a given war these machines are useless. i said here that KDF soldiers were not trained to handle counter-insurgencies, while on the other hand, Al shabbabs were trained to fight as guerrillas. It will take KDF several months to grasp this and retrain their soldiers or force them to learn it on the job.
And this is not easy since even the Americans took months to adjust in Iraq and Afghanistan and by the time they did it they had lost tens of soldiers. Otherwise, those APCs, trucks ETC that you boast of will be hit one by one until you learn that they may not even be neccessary after all.
On the other hand, the gum-boot soldiers of Uganda are experts at fighting counter-insurgencies-which is one of the reasons Al-shabaab has never forced them to cede any captured ground in Mogadishu.
GUMBOOTS AND POOPING IN THE BUSH!!!!!!!!C’mmon you guys just envy everything in Kenya. You dont even have a coast..just raggedy beaches with flatulent hippos on Lake Victoria. Wacha wivu Obote!
Lest i forget, it is because of this gum boot, poorly fed soldier that in the last 20 years, there has been regime change in Rwanda, in DRC and the creation of a new state-South-Sudan. It is because of this soldier you ridicule that for the first time in 21 years, Mogadishu is under one administration-the TFG. It is because of this soldier that while Uganda at one time had 20 insurgent groups fighting it inside the country, there is none at the moment! And i bet you if it was the same gum-boot soldier handling Al shabaabs on the Kenyan border, without any international mandate whatsoever like the Kenyans are, you would by now bee seeing the gum-boots in Kismayo. THEY WILL HAVE WALKED THROUGH THAT MUD, which has ‘stopped’ the mighty KDF from moving on. If you understand war, you will understand the might of this gum-boot soldier.
hahaha …typical Ugandan.Surely, how can a professional army dessert one of its primary objective because of mud.are you even listening to yourself cause such ignorant statements may make one wonder whether you are actually human.
Kenya had logistical reasons to postpone the battle for kismayu as the risks were way too deadly. al’shabab had fortified and entrenched kismayu and proceeded by using the local civilians as human shields and had stationed stand by cameras for recording any transpiring events incase kdf attacked Kismayu and accidentally killed the innocent civilians plus ofcos other logistical reasons the led to the postponement of the battle for kismayu.
even if we took kismayu, that wouldn’t mean its the end of al’shabab. al’shabab recently have changed their methods and are now melting into the society and keeping the civilians in constant fear so they don’t open up.
kdf is wining the hearts of the civilians by providing food,water and medical services and the method is working against the insurgents.
the Somalis in towns that have been taken over by kdf and tfg are expressing joy and happiness,smthing that they haven’t experienced in years as their freedoms have been won back and recently, there have been setting of small camp schools and young teens have expressed the ambition for knowledge which to many Kenyans is touching and satisfying as kdf and tfg continue to persue the insurgents.
and by the way, the operation Linda had way more objective which have already been met rather than kismayu.
say what?
FOR THE RECORD,K.D.F OBJECTIVE IN SOMALIA IS TO PROTECT KENYA NOT TO CAPTURE ANY TOWN THAT UGANDANS RECOGNIZE( EITHER KISMAYO OR AFMADOW).THE FACT THAT K.D.F HAS CREATED A BUFFER ZONE AND CLEARED AL SHABAB FROM 100’S OF KILOMETERS FROM KENYA IS SUFFICIENT AND COMBAT OPERATIONS SHOULD COME TO A HALT.NO KENYAN DOLLAR SHOULD BE SPENT CAPTURING STUPID TOWNS IN SOMALI THAT ARE NO LONGER A THREAT TO KENYA AND ITS BORDERS.K.d.f has done us proud and exhibited unparalleled capabilities and exemplary military strength that cleared al shabab from all southern somalia in two months (2,000km by 2,000 km) unlike amisom in crazy town who have been there for 4 years and are still struggling.Mind you,only 4,000 k.d.f soldiers did the job compared to 9,000 amison who cant break out from 20km by 20 km town.K.d.f became the first african army to utilize night vision capable helicopters to hit targets in real time in the cover of darkness..You want me to post the clip?
Southern somalia was a stronghold and we thought that with the promise of 7 virgins al shabab were gonna fight to death to defend it.they may be nuts but they not stupid.They knew what they were facing (NOT MEN IN GUMBOOTS THIS TIME) so they run like rats or roaches.
EVIDENTLY THE SOLDIER WHO INSTALLED GOVERNMENTS FROM KINSHASHA TO JUBA WEARING GUMBOOTS HAS REALLY LEARNT TO TAKE HIS TIME..AS LONG AS IT TOOK HIM ( 20 YEARS TO BE EXACT AND COUNTING) TO CLEAR REBELLIONS IN THE NORTH,HE IS TAKING A PIECE OF HIS PLAY BOOK AND USING IT IN MOGADISHU..(TAKE 20 YEARS TO CLEAR AL SHABAB FROM THERE TOO SOLDIER.).No wonder even the general in state house kampala is so poor in making decisions as to whether a soldier need to eat or pilot a piece of machine he is poorly trained to handle.
Hell,watch this space we are all kenyan ,all the time.
For starters, when i look on the map i see that Kenyan forces are in an average 50kms inside Somalia, so how does the so called 2,000kms come about? Even in these areas that you claim to have cleared, attacks against the KDF are a daily occurance-so what did you clear? In the Kenyan border areas, grenades are being thrown left right and center every day-so who are carrying out these attacks if you cleared them away? The actuall fact is that you did not clear Al shabaab out of those areas. They simply melted into the population to enable them fight another da, which is why they keep on attacking and harrassing KDF left right and center.
You have once again claimed that AMISOM forces are so weak that it has taken them years to capture Mogadishu. But this simply shows how shallow your understanding of the military is. I have been to Mogadishu so many times and i can tell you that these soldiers have performed beyond their limitations. This is a heavily built up area 30kms squared with a very heavy populatuion of everybody from IDPs to origins. Certainly to capture it, you needed a lot of caution, putting men at every building and corner and minimising casualties of both yourself and the civil population. The soldiers were patient enough and they did it.
On the contrary you are boasting about the capture of open land and the two are not comparable. As i said earlier, if UPDF was in KDF situation without any international mandate to guide them, you would be seeing gum-boots in Kismayo by now.
You can call my understanding shallow but what i consider shallow is the inability of u.p.d.f to eliminate rebellions from the north for two decades.Now thats shallow.Thou i agree fighting in urban areas is difficult,what urban areas did u.p.d.f have to fight trough to warrant 20 years of madness in Northern Uganda?Now thats shallow.Mu7 raiding public coffers and leaving soldiers in mud huts starving is what in Kenya we call shallow.Ive watched video clips from Mogadishu and to give credit where its due,u.p.d.f at times has fought bravely and ferociously.However,we have seen them engage in the madness they have been used to all these years of lacking any strategy,lacking any reconn and intel capabilities,lacking any cohesiveness of a fighting unit thus doing what Ugandans only know how to do:Shoot your way to the top.Thats why they cant understand when K.d.f guns go silent and feeding the hungry becomes the priority.Mind u if K.d.f was as reckless as u.p.d.f and their Ethiopian friends, we have enough fire power to shoot our way to Kismayo or Kinshasha after flattening Kampala.But our military learns more in the academy than shooting your way to some crazy town.When Ethiopians shot their way to Mogadisho,what did they accomplish? Just to antagonize the population then withdraw in a hurry.Look at the places liberated by k.d.f and see how friendly and pro k.d.f the population has become.Damn,Al shabab now is in panic mode searching for infiltrators having been shocked by the accuracy of k.d.f intel.every place they gather to chew kurt they are hit,hell.Only fools doubt the capability of k.d.f to wreck havoc all the way to Kismayo but for what? Just so some gumboot wearing poorly trained fellow can cheer?Blood bath by slaughtering kids in afmadow who are recruited unwillingly and then what? Just to earn some points from “bandit soldiers” in gumboots whose doctrine is a political one of keeping the “elite” in power? K.d.f to shoot daylight out of Kismayo for what? so as a gumboot soldier can stop saying “i could be there myself wearing gumboots?”
MAN,WE ARE KENYAN AND EAST AFRICA ESPECIALLY UGANDA WILL TAKE A MINIMUM OF 40 YEARS OF HARD WORK AND PETROL DOLLAR TO BE WHERE KENYA IS TODAY ALL ASPECTS INCLUDED:THINKING,POLITICO,SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC .
AND MILITARY.
why do u people reffer to UPDF as army.they are sect members combined with child soldiers.
And i guarantee you here that soon,if need be and when the thundering sound of k.d.f artillery resumes (in the works as you can see from the last 10 days), the surgical,precise and overwhelming bursts carried out by K.d.f will see the British and the Americans try to bribe their way into Kenya’s military planning so as to earn credit attributed to the successes of the operation.They too cant stomach an African country being so robust and exemplary.As we speak,they already scratching their heads and taking credit for this operation.I know you are ignorant or poorly informed but i bank that you not one of those people buying into that garbage.Asante.
Garbage that in K.d.f offices there are white men drawing the plans and planning moves for k.d.f.
Go to intelligencebriefs.com/kenya army upgrading its strength and you will piss on your pants.All the upgrades mentioned have been effected including the 150 mine resistant vehicles from South africa,the amphibious WMZ 551 armed personal carriers from china some of which were in display during kenya constitution promulgation,the Z9WE helicopters which are already in theater against al shabab,the 30 NORA B52 artillery all of which are recent aquisations.Most and the best of all already received is surface to surface and air to surface missiles and launchers which brings any target in uganda within our reach without launching fighter aircraft.
You guys are rejoicing about 6 jets.Now its open knowledge kenya is acquiring 35- f15s with 20 being delivered in 2012.By the way the 18 f5s that kenya acquired recently that were touted as old u will also learn they are not what people think.These are highly upgraded with modern radar and warning systems, evading capabilities plus top of range missiles that will shoot down any fighter jet?All am saying is kenya has always been ahead and will still stay ahead.Except for the jets which have to be received i can provide evidence on all the other equipment that shows its in service with k.d.f
I once again say, there has been nothing robust about the Kenyan operation and nothing superior that Uganda has never done in Congo, Sudan or other countries. So stop that chest thumping! By the way, why is that even with that so called robust operations KDF soldiers are still being ambushed almost at the whim of the Al shabaab. Thursday night, 11 dead, three APCs destroyed and you call that robust! 20 KDF killed in 10 days, bombs going off in Mandera, garisa, dabaab and you still shout about success? I beg you to ge behind the news and you will discover a complete cover up of KDF casualties.
It is even surprising that you are just receiving Mini resistant vehicles. here in Uganda, the UPDF has been using the RG-31s, mambas and Nyalas for ages and they are in their hundreds! By the way, even the ordinary police here has over 100 of those things so stop the boasting!
You then claim that Kenya has got a missile shield but for your information, Uganda got its missile shiled-Air and land ages ago when Sudan was still bombing towns in northern Uganda. The missile shield was actually responsible for chasing away Sudanese government planes from northern Uganda in the 90s. It was too recently up graded and modernised in relation to the acquisition of the brand new jets.
You then claim that the F-5 jets are wonderful and not what we see, but the fact is, they are old and that is why the KDF is seeking up grades. about KDF getting F-15s, it is still a dream-not too far but still a dream. But even then, the F15s is a lower generation jet than the SU-30s. In this respect, just accept that Uganda led the way and now you are stumbling and struggling to follow.
http://www.shout-africa.com/news/kenya-elite-kenyan-special-forces-revealed/
Kenyan special forces revealed
I wonder what ‘feeding’ the poor you are yapping about. For some reason, i bet you have not been to the KDF war front to get first hand information about the operation. On the other hand, i have been to Somalia and other war theaters in the region and i can gauge which army has got the better CIMMIC operations. even before their enemies, none beats the UPDF in that. AMISOM currently runs the best medical facilities in Mogadishu, they have the best water sources all which are accessed by the Somali community and one reason they have been able to stay longer in Mogadishu and achieve much more than what previous, more heavily armed armies did not achieve is that they know how to handle civilians.
In the Kenyan case, the Human Rights bodies are already on the KDF necks for killing innocent civilians, not only in Kenya-remmember the unfortunate fishermen, but also in Somalia.
AN ELDER WHO ENGAGES IN NAME CALLING MATCH WITH CHILDREN IN THE VILLAGE SQUIRE INVITES A RIDICULE UPON HIMSELF.I WILL NOT DO THAT AND THIS IS THE LAST NAIL AM DRIVING IN THIS COFFIN AND I WILL BE GONE.
I’ve said here and posted evidence about u.p.d.f inability to feed,house,train,equip,itself and Kato suggesting that they have the best facilities in Mogadishu proves my point that they are better of there funded by U.N otherwise in uganda they live in mud huts and have no running water.Infact while normal soldiers come from war stresssed and thin,u.p.d.f comes from Mogadishu fat and well fed.Mu7 has said he can provide 20,000 soldiers for the mission in Somalia the truth is its only because they are well fed and well paid over there.Much more,Well housed in the most chaotic country on earth something they will never get in Uganda.thanks to the U.N.
Of course we all know that Al shabab have a big mouth of perpetuating propaganda and none of the K.d.f vehicles was destroyed.The al shabab will never fight k.d.f they are running scared and meting violence against innocent Kenyan Somalis in the North.Hell,with the huge population of somalis in kenya,al shabab sympathizers conducting low key attacks like grenades, and i.e.d.s is always a present danger.If they were able to cross countries to hit big in kampala,its sure to say if they had the means to do that Kenya is the most likely and easy target.But thats not the case!Uganda has always been the soft target of kony,,al shabab and rag tag militia from congo and elsewhere.The fact that Uganda has been frequented by militia and rebellions in this part of Africa is not bad luck or mistake.The fact that u.p.d.f has taken decades to evolve and become an army not a movement, not a political tool of violence against opposition,is not a mistake.The fact that u.p.d.f has been involved in fighting poorly equipped,poorly led,poorly organised militias for 20 years is not a mistake.The u.p.d.f has done that BECAUSERIGHT FROM THE JUMP THIS IS A FORCE THAT CONSIST MAINLY OF FORMER CHILD MILITIA THAT SHOT THEIR WAY TO POWER WITH A.K 47s AS THE ONLY BASIC MILITARY UNDERSTANDING IN THEIR CHEST.What am saying is,they learnt how to shoot and went to the bush.TO THIS DAY THEY ARE BUSH MEN WHO LEFT THE BUSH BUT BUSH DIDNT LEAVE THEM IT STILL MANIFESTS IN WHAT THEY DO.
If kenya were to buy 30 sukois the same uganda bought,we would spend 2% of our G.D.P unlike uganda who spent almost 8% on just 6 jets.while kenya has provided decent housing and clean water to the army,u.p.d.f still feeds its men with food worth of cows and mud huts,gumboots and things you only see in uganda.While kenya now has over 300 armored personal carriers including the 35 amphibious obtained from china in 2011,u.p.d.f still brags of 50- apcs just obtained from south africa.I will bet my life u.p.d.f has no missile shield and the closest they have come to one is the neighboring one in Tanzania! Facts are facts whether you like them or not and this video again proves that the generals in Kampala have their mind screwed up if this can be even part of an army that waits deployment.Kenya army has never lived in mud huts without water and with spades used as spoons.i dont care what anybody says this is gross miscarriage of justice.Go figure.
Hey, Joshua Kato, and Gumboot Army. come over to the
http://www.eastafrican.userboard,net.
There you will find plenty of kindred spirits. Cease with debating between the two of you, and come across. Your quality of your brick-braking is there. That is where everyone deserted to. Cease fire, men, and get to your new positions there.
Nice to hear from you Afande Ole Nkarei. I do read the East-african forum, but i failed to log in and contribute. But it is all nice stuff whichever way you look at it. Very soon i will be at that station.
Hi Gumboot and all, Uganda armed forces during Idi Amin’s times were one of the best trained armies in Africa. Israeli trained, British trained, Libyan trained to fight desert wars and so forth. However, there was only the weakness of Idi, but to not argue further, the updf is what it is today because there is no proper care to the military. There used to be no such kinds of things as military living in mud hut houses. Most of the military barracks structures are damaged beyond rehabilitation. All in all, African governments should focus on taking care of their citizens, but not stealing from their countries’ wealth in order to enrich themselves. Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, South Sudan, Congo and Ethiopia governments including other African countries have developed common disease called: CORRUPTION and to be called a smart stooge African politician, this emblem of Corruption and bigmanship must be worn to intimidate citizens off their basic human rights.
Awesome issues here. I’m very glad to peer your article. Thank you a lot and I’m taking a look ahead to touch you. Will you kindly drop me a mail?
let me introuduce myself.l am a ugandan aged 15.l have read these Amanzing arugments of kenya and uganda,but of course if u are a citizens a country u have to support it. kenya has no chance to beat our UPDF mighty army.you can call it rag tag but when action begins,you will see how UPDF you insulated is elimating your so called orgnaised army. so back off.
well i don’t see how the so called kdf is taking over Somalia ,even the territories they control were earlier held by the Ethiopian troops who handed them over to Kenya forces and if am not miss informed the kdf operation in Somalia is under the control of the updf Amy and does who yapped that Uganda can not fight two wars at a time need to be educated because u.p.d.f are in chard ,central African republic, south Sudan ,DRC Congo and in Somalia well not quite fighting but just small exercise to gain experience of the new recruits so Kenyan patriots revise your information
a statement of pure ignorance. how does Ethiopia hand over territories in a war far from it at the beginning.
last year when we had a Uganda vs Kenya football match for crying out loud your TV stations could’t even do replays.
you see, sincerely speaking, Kenya Is not only militarily ahead of Uganda when you bring in the technological,economical and social aspects.
let me be categorical..in terms of technology, the m-pesa phenomena is all Kenyan which has attracted scholars around the globe who have come to study the system INVENTED BY A KENYAN.
economically….need I say?
a local newspaper going @ Ksh.50 in Kenya goes for 1000 Ugandan shillings.
socially…Kenyans enjoy unlimited freedom as per the international bill of rights unlike Ugandans who live under constant fear where the president cannot be critisised and holding demonstrations is at ones own risk.
Lets just remain peaceful and maintain friendship cause that’s the only way we stand to gain in regional prosperity
Ethiopia is the most powerfully from east Africa. I will prove it if u want
Kenyans should know,E.Africa was anciently under the cwezi empire,we are one and we must know our heridity.
i dont even think we should burden our proffessional army to fight those sect members ugandans call an army.all we nid to do is send some NYS youths with some few whips nd sticks.follow that up with closing all the boarder points and they will have no oil.sending our army there would mean wiping that impoverished country out from the map of the earth or making it a province of kenya.all the media houses in that country are kenyans so we just give them a blackout nd they wont know from where they are being hit.we wont mind giving the NYS some boost from the administration police nd they wont have to carry guns but a few tear gas canisters.Kenyans dont waste ur saliva arging with these fools.lets them just try.i would urge the ministry of defence to save our army until the time we have to fight those countries that are in our league e.g russia,south africa or egypt.dont use it on some impoverished country that uses our supermakets,banks,media and food.have mercy on them.they r just admiring their big brother nd trying hard to be like them.
Ignorance of the ‘enemy’ is the first step of losing the war. I put ‘enemy’ in quotes because UG is not our enemy, rather the biggest trading partner Kenya has. a few facts u seem to ignore:
> Uganda has an airforce with fighters superior to Kenya’s…so no, our airforce would not wipe them in 45 minutes as u say, i wouldnt be surprised if we get wipped instead.
.> the ‘child soldier’ has grown, 1980 is a long time ago you know.
> losing UG as a trading partner would send kenya to the dogs by a big margin…we need them just as bad as they need us.
> they have an alternative supply route, its not as easy for us to get an alternative destination for our goods, services and hustlers.
>uganda military budget is larger than kenya’s, do some research.
> uganda budget goes to get them real stuff, part of ours end up …..u know where as well as i do!
> kenya would not beat uganda hands down….that is the bitter truth, if u are willing to face the facts.
i advice u get ur facts right before arguing with emotions and patriotism.
and yes, am as much kenyan as u are, just having my eyes open.
you dont have ur facts right.Kenya is the biggest millitary spender in east and central africa.read the following article;
Did you know that Kenya is the biggest military spender in East Africa? Our military budget has always dwarfed those of our sister states, Uganda and Tanzania. Moreover, we have been spending more per military personnel than Ethiopia did during its war with Eritrea, Sudan with SPLA and now in Darfur, and Uganda with the LRA.
Interestingly by 1999, Kenya’s army of 24,000 personnel was the smallest in the region. This is according to the World Military Expenditures and Arms Transfers, a 2003 study by the United States Department of State. Ethiopia’s army of 300,000 personnel was the largest, followed by Sudan’s 105,000. Uganda and Tanzania had 50,000 and 35,000 military personnel respectively.
You would expect that our small army and relative peace within our borders would translate to a smaller military budget. But that has never been the case, at least, since 1989 when the US Department of State started collecting East African military expenditure data. In 1999, Kenya spent $8,000 (Sh560,000) for every military personnel. This was more than four times that of Ethiopia (Sh120,000), almost three times that of Uganda (Sh200,000), two and a half times that of Tanzania (Sh244,000), and double that of Sudan (Sh280,000).
Kenya’s military budget has since 1999 skyrocketed to significant levels. The above military expenditures indicate that Kenya has surely been spending as if she was at war. However, we have had peace, which makes one wonder how the Department of Defense (DoD) ended up spending Sh150 billion between 1989 and 1999.
The answers are buried in the secrecy surrounding these budgets, which are never disclosed to the public for “security” reasons. Worse still, the Parliament’s Defence and Security committee, currently chaired by Embakasi MP David Mwenje, lacks power to scrutinise defence spending.
Doesn’t that provide a perfect recipe for fraudulent defence deals? It does. Those who have read John Githongo’s dossier would agree that lack of transparency has historically made successive defence budgets a perfect haven for corruption. And that’s how Anglo Leasing organisers found their way into our nation’s coffers.
While hoping that those named in vague defence contracts will face justice, something has to be done differently: Transparency in defence spending. To achieve that goal, Parliament must grant its Defence and Security committee powers to scrutinise military budgets. Failure to do so would make attempts to protect our sovereignty an illusion.
i agree the defence committee should have more powers otheriwse we will never know how the billions are spent.
a recent article in the dailies showed that UGs military budget was in the last one year the highest in E africa….due to their recent acquisition of ‘birds’ from Russia…or China. this is the sole reason why their airforce is now having superior fighters than kenyas superiority F5s and the F5 varieties.
otherwise the military spending per indiviual soldier, kenya’s should still be higher.
museveni has now got the petro dollar and can afford to spend more…albeit no dollar actually received yet!
Mr. Shem Kogi, you made me laugh my head of laud. You have defined all monetary denominations of all those countries with one type of denomination, that is shillings. However, Ethiopian currency is called Birr, Sudanese currency is either Sudanese pounds or Dinar. My point of argument is that those countries currencies; i.e., Sudanese and Ethiopian currencies were strong enough to be estimated to the least of the statistics you have provided because Sudanese pound was stabilized by the oil production and Ethiopian Birr was stabilized by their gold output. I remember the time I was in Ethiopia, their currency transacted 1 EBirr for 15 Kshillings and 2Ebirr transacted for 1 Sudanese pound. All bretheren and sisters here should understand that we Africans are spending too much in military aid to defend ourselves from the imaginery enemy, but to the worst case scenario, those arms are used for defending our dear corruption, tribalism, nepotism and political power. If those monies were to be turned into development programs such as in manufacturing sector, basic socio-economic infrastructure development, etc., our countries would not live the curses of inferiority, but we would be confident to call ourselves developing countries rather than poor third world countries.
Remember that any bullet fired is stealing and destroying your property or country’s development. Are we more open to serious dialogue or true democracy or we are still strapped by biligerant ideologies?
A proffesional Army never under rate any army as long as what they have can shoot bullets the rest is just courage. A good example is north Africa Gadaffi was removed by rug tag army hahahahahahah
Mind you UPDF has been rated the best in urban warfare in Africa, And Jubgle . Thanks to the German, American and Isrealite
Its true this man museveni is after kenya. Ilived in uganda and what the mood there is about kenya being crushed by UPDF one time. Our leaders need to get up and prepare to face Museveni in future.
Its true we need to regain lost glory in the region
You guys, I am surprised by how much time some of you have taken discussing issues of less importance whichever angle you want to take. We should talk as East Africans and stop the xenophobia and imaginations of so and so being after us and so on. It is a sign of ignorance, lack of exposure etc.The military prowess you are talking about did not stop us from being taken into slavery, colonization and now economic exploitation. We should be talking about issues that will improve our health, economy etc instead of propagating un necessary intrigue. SHAME UPON YOU!!.
I don’t think that Kenya or Uganda would compare militarily with Ghadaffi’s Libya but see what happened. Simply appreciate that war is war and best avoided as there are more confounding factors that determine the ultimate outcome. Let those who want to continue playing with fire do so but they need no reminder that it is a big mistake.
The things is all of you here are an elephants trunk hoping to hear the sound come out of the anus, Uganda is not going to go to war with you not because you can defeat it it won’t because its looking at the bigger picture,have you noticed how it has continously built allies around its biggest threats,secondly they have been carrying out tests with some very queer biological weapons and so its not the uganda wants to go to war,its just a statement of arrival. The Ugandan army will keep on helping countries around africa stablize economically,socially and politically inorder to up there influence in the region,so your hateful and patriotic arguments will not change the reality of the situation. These war mongering arguments should for crying out loud all of you are using circumstancial evidence quoting fights from the 80’s and forgetting that times have changed and that both armies a very different.
On the point of the LRA it is a shame that you people are praising the Sudan trained murderes,it is a known fact that Northern Sudan has been equipping the LRA with modern weapons,military strategies and also training LRA soldiers and as everyone in the military know, Sudan is not to be fucked with.
All in all forget these stupid baseless argume.ts and do something better with your time.
Hi mates, its impressive piece of writing concerning teachingand fully
explained, keep it up all the time.
Uganda to day is regional super power no doubt and full stop………loll
Good day! I know this is kind of off topic but I was wondering if you knew
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I’m using the same blog platform as yours and I’m having trouble finding one?
Thanks a lot!
Kenyans are talking of spending big budgets in there Military; it does not mean that you will succeed the war with UPDF or Ugandans. The Uganda Military! You just don’t understand the UPDF your talking about, should one day UPDF gives a try of war to your country, believe me AND MARK MY WORDS.. You will be liberated in only a week. You know why? We are neighbors and we know you Kenyans weakness and narrow minded all what you think is that having BIG budget, Jet fighter with big number of armies is success full of big wars. Forget…Your MUDOMO MUDOMO Just tisa tisaring the websites men. your here talking about the of LRA defeated UPDF, fine the AMERICANS sent 100 Commandos to fight the LRA.. Question did they succeed even to see his under wears? NO… let me cut this shot and assure you Kenyans. The war you’re talking about. You still have 50 years ahead to succeed
UPDF or Ugandans in the jungles.
A former( National Resistance Army)
Goodness bro, what a load of rubbish. Uganda and Kenya are not ever going to go to war, at least not in our lifetimes. So all this Uganda this, Kenya that chest-thumping is a big joke to me. Like I said before, Ugandans and Kenyans are more likely going to keep making love to each other, before they ever go to war with each other.
This is a great topic and i appreciate everyone’s contribution. For a start Uganda and Kenya love each other to much, they will be no war. However, my Kenyan friends Uganda’s army is a serious fighting machine that you don’t want play around with. Just ask Rwandan’s Congoese and others.
LAMEDAHI
The best way to overcome your dreams is to wake up, if kenya forces think that uganda taking over migingo is a minor issue, i may say that by the time they sense danger, Nairobi will be on under updf control.
The army that has no mandate of protecting territorial integrity is useless, and if in this particular case the kdf thinks everything is normal, then the entire security detail of kenya needs to undergo spiritual or ritual cleansing
,As long as you still underestimate and miscalculate the potential of updf, i can say that your hands are tied at your back and you are finished.Updf has proved quality over the last 15 years that is not easy to reverse.
Kenya has a strategic advantage of access to coast over uganda but if this is subjected to a potential and experienced fighting detail like updf, i can say that you would not have 60% security of this advantage.
But we are all one and aspirants of united Africa, i think the issues of fighting should be left out and even if ug takes over migingo or even advances to Nairobi, it will still remain Africa or Kenya yetu.
My conclusion is that kenya and uganda will not go to war but if it happens, then kenya will suffer humiliation.
Thanks brothers and sisters,I think best option is to consolidate unity,war is useless and hopeless thats Y uganda is economically nursing its wounds.Kenyans think,incase war takes its course on your side,I believe it will be the worsed experience where by even the little you are talking about will become a white elephant.Look at Libya and analyse issues with well alighned minds.Our leaders are not stupid to think of reinstating the community which was pushed down by the same lousy political mentalities.Unity for us all,same blood,we depend on each other and Uganda is meandering because of its past.Kenya don’t think ur great,the same can happen to you and I think you would even be far only that you have had poor and un forcussed managers.All in all,we need each other.
Somali is a good indicator of who is better.
What has the official casualties been??
How long has did it take to achieve strategic objectives?? control kismayu!!!! control Mogadishu!!!!
It is not in doubt that KDF completed its task in a much shorter time while had very few casualties.
Kenya is soo ahead of u guys it doesn’t need the army to fight u at all in the event tht will ever happen. It can jst close the border, stop rail transport, shut down the oil flow and the entire economy will b bogged down. Wth ur fickle pecuniary muscle and insignificance in the global diplomatic circles, it will take u forever to negotiate new channels to get enough oil in ur dilapidated and obsolete military machinery to get them hv an engine start let alone carry out an offensive.
U need a navy to play in the same league wth us not some rubber patrol boats u use to harass hapless civilians wth while carrying AK47s. Apart frm hood gangs and jungle militia who still uses assault rifles made in 1947 as their primary issue? U guys need some serious upgrades b4 we can even start talkn abt the tactical abilities and advantages we hv over each other. cos ur pilots cant fly gunships in peace tym i wonder if they will make it in war tym. smh
kenya amry last week received brand new 40 apc
U can talk a lot.but if someone taken yo land n u do nothing.even a baby can see the strong one.kenyans forget history.today u can’t survive UPDF is better thn u by far.unless u want see kisumu as part of uganda
Kenyans comment like fools. They think words can fight a war. I probably don’t know which of the two armies is better but the recent attack by terrorists on a mall exposed the confusion in Kenya. About four men or so disorganized the whole security for days… that wasn’t a war but it showed that even commanders are super confused. One thing is that the war would significantly destabilize trade in Uganda but when you exclude the above, Uganda has a very organized and battle-tested army. Uganda can worry a lot about Sudan (not South Sudan) but not Kenya in the region. Uganda bought jets from Russia not for Kenya but Sudan. No war is likely between Uganda and Kenya in the next 100 years or so There’d be damages on both sides and other parties would come-in to stop it and you may not see the winner. Uganda has mad/crazy leaders who may close all taps to other sectors to finance the war if this are too bad. If Kenya can do it as well, they may sustain it because they’ve more money.
Hmmm. Half Kenyan and half Ugandan and the debate (and wild assertions) are interesting.
First I think Kenya should be proud that their army is relatively less battled tested than the Ugandan army. My model of a good army is one that stays in the barracks and does not turn it’s weapons on it’s own people and neighbours, as the various Ugandan armies have done over the years.
That said, sometimes war is inevitable, as Kenya has learnt from it’s (mis)adventures in Somalia.
My other point is how do people define success? Do the Americans feel like they won the Iraqi War or the Vietnam War, even after inflicting heavy losses on vastly inferior enemies?
My reason of history is th victors are usually those who show a greater capacity for violence (and conversely tolerance for casualties) and greater dedication to the cause (essentially have less to lose). Military hardware and spending may help, but may not be decisive.
On that score, given Uganda’s and Kenya’s respective histories, I’d wager A Uganda victory. The country is accustomed to violence, has shown and the UPDF / NRA has shown it can defeat better equipped and / or numerically superior forces, over a sustained period of time. Battles will be lost, but long-term the Ugandans would grind out a victory.
The differing strategies adopted in Somalia have been . Uganda ground out victories, consolidating and holding territory taken, but painfully slowly, and had political pressure
Built back home an early withdrawal might have been deemed a failure. Political pressures meant Kenya had to adopt a faster more mobile approach, which exposed supply lines to attack and spread forces on the ground pretty thin. Too many career officers reading out of armoured warfare manuals in the KDF methinks.
Uganda has taken major loses in Somalia. if ability of an army is measured by loses then Ugandans should realize that the Ugandan army is very weak
War bad and one who think about it need to be checked by a medical doctor. considering what uganda and kenya forces are doing, you can not compare the two. UPDF has been engaged in several excercises and equipment is not war mover but courage, reading the length when to complete the batle. Nagiria has goog equipment with bigger budget but can not sustain a war hence the man at grassroot make it finally.
War is bad and one who think about it need to be checked by a medical doctor. considering what uganda and kenya forces are doing, you can not compare the two. UPDF has been engaged in several excercises and equipment is not war mover but courage, reading the length when to complete the batle. Nagiria has good equipment with bigger budget but can not sustain a war hence the man at grassroot make it finally.
kenya is nonthing but a corrupt,low civilised town but not a country
Both in your argument and thinking,there is no doubt you are a Luo.Always antagonistic,bitter and wish bad luck to the country you belong-you are and will remain a doomed community.
Kenyan army is a white elephant. With equipment but manned by cowards . That is why alshabab penetrated their camp and slaughtered 188 soldiers according to the somali president . Such a loss can never happen Ito Battle hardened Ugandans .
hey brothers and sisters i see patriotism pushing on both sides but try to be subjective, yeah in 1980s kenyan so called police beat but lets not base on history, the writer didn’t say uganda can win he just said they are battle hardened which is a reality list just two wars kenya has ever fought in 50 years i will show you over 20 rebel groups uganda had to fight since 1986 and in somalia you watch blackhawk down where the americans failed in somalia and people thought we shall fail in 2007, kenya was quiet to help somalia we rushed to southsudan without fear. during the kenyan post election riot kisumu was given to ugandan security agency. lets talk for now why didnt you take the island back.
more so we respect kenya very much but let history not deceive them .yeah, Africa’s military ranking they are ahead of us, but why did you lose 11 special force soldiers against the around 15 al-shabab extremist during the westgate rescue operations. you have the weapons but junk men behind the weapons. imagine those were your best boys called the special force!!!! the elite team of the KDF and how many hours did the rescue operation last!!! lets base on the present not history. your will always think your mother is the best cook, come on visit other peoples home for acknowledgment, and see this, what is the military rank of nigeria in afrca? and there military expenditure and weapons compared to uganda and kenya combined? but still its the will and passion of the men behind those expensive weapons, follow this link http://www.redpepper.co.ug/updf-deploys-heavily-in-nigeria-to-fight-boko-haram/Uganda is to deploy two battalions in Nigeria to join in the fight against Boko Haram militia. This move is part of the continental effort to tackle the conflict with the insurgents. we are building for africa keep on bulding to fight us. am done
our su-30 is an all weather multy role jetfighter how many countries in the world own them? i leave it to u but wen did you last acquire a 4th generation jetfighter?
Hey, Am Edie,
I have a lot of respect for Kenya, however am disappointed by their thinkings of being superior to Ugandans almost in every thing, their arrogancy is too much, they also mistreat Ugandans as the recent Ugandan MPs accusations of mistreatment by corrupt Kenyan police asking for bribes, to pass through Kenya yet Uganda treat them well and they pass for free
As for military debates over who beats who, I understand this is even more dangerous, although would like to share my own opinion.. …..
I recently read a source that once said Kenyan military once got astonished and even became scared at the kind of heavy UPDF military hardware they were seeing for first time that they had never known Uganda possessed as they were being passed through Kenya enroute to Somalia, through Mombasa to fight Alshabaab, some way in 2006 they then went back to drawing board to start procuring more equipments implying they were not confident with their large stockpile of weapons they,used boost of before that, they also wondered how much could be at home if such calibre of military equipment was heading for Somalia, …I therefore predict that in case of total war with Uganda, Kenya whom i agree are better armed, would see the real make up of the much experienced and battle hardened gallant UPDF,in terms of latest military equipments and hardware, conventional, strength like Comandos, of special forces and latest fighting tactics and so on,… every thing hidden would be bought to surface..and …indeed so scared they would be that they would even pee in their trousers, abandon their large arms that could further end up in hands of much determined UPDF as usually happens when they face their armed enemies…..
hey kenyans u are quiet talk and we continue u lost 11 special force against the about 15 alshaabab outfits at west gate and how long did the mission take yet the protocal for rescue missions is it should last for minutes not days and our special force carried out many rescue operations in somalia and the most talked about being in the somali parliament so its not the weapons but the men behind the weapons