Reports in Kenya’s media indicate that the country’s airforce will spend US$23 million acquiring obsolete fighter jets to revamp its fleet.
A Kenya Airforce F-5 fighter jet. Picture by Wikipedia.
According to the Standard newspaper, Kenya will replace its own aging F-5 fighter jets with 15 F-5s being disposed by the Jordanian Airforce. The government will pay Kshs1.5 billion ($23 million at current rates) for acquisition and transportation of the craft from Jordan. The money will also cater for spare parts and the training of Kenyan crews.
The $23 million price tag for used, obsolete fighter craft may raise more than a little eyebrows. Kenya’s economy was badly affected by violence early this year following disputed elections in December 2007. Though the government has pledged to rebuild vandalized properties and to compensate those affected by the clashes, funds are difficult to come by. Government estimates put the reconstruction budget at Shs31 billion ($500 million).
Corruption allegations in government circles may hinder the flow of funds from traditional donor nations. At the same time, uncertainty caused by political wrangling is expected to slow down investment, further undermining economic performance. Rising food and oil prices are hitting the population especially hard, further worsening the effects of poverty and 60% unemployment.
The F-5 fighter jet was developed by Northrop Corporation in the 1950s as a light combat aircraft. During the Cold War, the F-5 proved popular with allies of the United States especially in the developing world. Kenya acquired its F-5 fleet in the 1970s and 80s and probably wants to replace its aging aircraft by acquiring the same model elsewhere.
However, the last F-5 was built in 1989, indicating that the Jordanian jets are at least 20 years old. Airforce top brass are yet to explain why they could not buy new fighter jets that are readily available in the international arms market.
This would not be the first time that a purchase of military hardware in Kenya is causing scandal. An ally of President Mwai Kibaki was forced to resign several years ago, after it emerged that a ship the Navy had ordered was a converted civilian vessel. Kenya’s Police force has also come under heavy criticism for buying oversized, second hand helicopters from Russia, and whose maintenance is becoming very expensive.
Within East Africa, Uganda, has experienced a “junk helicopters” scandal. The government of President Yoweri Museveni bought obsolete helicopters from Russia at above-average prices. One of the helicopters crashed in 2006, killing among other people the new President of Southern Sudan, Dr John Garang.
Filed under: News | Tagged: airforce, corruption, f-5, f5, fighter, fighters, jet, jordan, junk, kenya, kenya airforce, kenya government, kibaki, mwai, nairobi, obsolete |
The Nairobi Chronicle 
I have a feeling this might spill over into the African commercial aviation market as well especially for the regional airlines.
A lot of tier 1 airlines are shedding their gas-guzzling, aging aircraft for newer, more fuel-efficient ones and it is not a stretch of the imagination to assume where these planes will end up.
I understand the concern for transparency regarding this fighter deal given the history of corruption, especially under Moi.
However, the F-5 is still a front line fighter in service in the air forces of Turkey, Greece, Spain, etc. It has a proven combat history and is less expensive to maintain than modern combat aircraft like the F-15, Tornado or Mirage. Obtaining 15 aircraft with spares for $23 million is a baragain considering one new F-15 costs for that $30 million each. The F-5 is far from “junk.” In fact, the US Air force still has 600-700 in use as trainers.
Kenya needs to upgrade it’s jet fighters but on a budget. It is a strategic country in a growing neighborhood of instability.
my friend,the point you are putting across is very pedestrian.it’s like comparing an ibm 486 pc with a toshiba satelitte laptop.
they are all in the market,but one is obsolete!!!!!!!!!
why would you answer him after a year
i agree with dan – what’s all this about f 5’s from Jordan are crap planes – the f5 tiger is still a force to reckon with – with speeds of upto mach 1.7 -it can rival any fighter jet in the world when dogfighting – ask the swiss and the turks who still have many f 5’s in their inventory – what people need to know is that the Kenyan airforce is buying the latest version of the f5 family which is the f 5em – this version is still the same model as the old ones but with modern avionics – this jets can also refuel midair like the f5em’s of the brazillian airforce – so go kenya get the planes. Yes dan maintaining them is cheaper – and boy can those planes move !!
hey guys we need new stuff from cooking oil to combat planes.the year is 1986 my first time to see our air force f-5`s during ask kapsabet show.it was also the year which the last of this tigers assembling contract was expiring! almost 3 decades down and we still see them.at least the ministry of defence ought to allocate cash to better fighters even if not latest.go for russian mig 23s and others.lets update our forces please.thank you
what people should know is that with modern avionics,the f-5 will be as good as any other fightet.for as long as the airframe hours are within limits.we should upgrade our equipment considering the potent threat of al shabab militia
Going by the fact that Kenya we are still in the third developing countries and that our armed force is one of the very best established in central and east Africa, talking of acquiring these 15 jets will mean a great boost to our force giving the fact that i being a pilot in the Kenya air force and flying this f-5 with all the knowledge what it actually can do on combat mission leaves no doubt but to directly go for these avionics configured crafts…..kudos kenya just go for it…n get me as one of the delivery pilot…i just love it…
Going by the fact that Kenya we are still in the third developing countries and that our armed force is one of the very best established in central and east Africa, talking of acquiring these 15 jets will mean a great boost to our force giving the fact that i being a pilot in the Kenya air force and flying this f-5 with all the knowledge what it actually can do on combat mission leaves no doubt but to directly go for these avionics configured crafts…..kudos kenya just go for it…n get me as one of the delivery pilot…i just love it…no more rush and waits in the line to fly for training with extra 15 crafts…just cant wait
“modern avionics”? seriously? modern comes nowhere close to describing the avionics in these planes. “modern” avionics can drop precision-guided munitions, “modern” avionics can interface with other friendly planes in the air, “modern” avionics can take advantage of advanced weapons like the AIM 120 or at least the AIM 7 sparrow. the best these can do is drop dumb bombs and fire off a few early-model sidewinders.
buying an F5 today as your top fighter is like buying old ford cortinas and peogeot 203 and you expect them to compete with top of the range BMW”s , toyota VX and subaru imprezas. for Gods sake the ethopians and the ugandans are flying the SU27 and MIG23 respectively and we pride ourself that we have an airforce. the truth is our airforce is more geared towards providing V.I.P services to govement dignitaries than being combat ready. thats why the V.I.P section of the airforce has top of the range executive jets ( the dash series ) backed by the Y12.while the fighter section makes do with obsolute F5,s that are almost 30 years old and out of production.
Uganda doesn’t have Mig 23s…save us the bar stool tales. Ethiopia yes…UG, wacha zako
Look out for the new fleet UG has. its only seen in Egypt and Algeria. They have brand new Sukhoi Su-30 from Russia, which are comparable with the American version.
Which world do u live in? Uganda has had MiG 23s for over ten years. And now Sukhoi MKII. Better revise your basic Int.
we should learn to change with times. the F5 is outdated and obsolute and if thats what our commanders are ordering for the airforce, it means that their military knowledge is also outdated and obsolute. one shudders to imagine what they are ordering for the other services. it is not a question of money because our neighbours i.e ethiopia and uganda are purchasing better equipment and yet our economy is far bigger than for the two countries. we are just not taking our security seriously.
um… why do we need them again? the only real wars have been civil, so unless we want to light ourselves on fire…
For this reason I think I will be able to live with the fact that we got F5’s instead of some hot shot modern avionic BVR wallet dissolving army candy!
I mean why spend for the latest and greatest? I’m content with the F5’s.
The risk from our very own neighbors is very real, considering that resources are shared..like the lake…when things become thick, countries will start thinking of themselves..look at the way Egypt is bullying the great lake region countries over how usage of the Lake’s waters…expect more of these issues in the future.
The problem is that it is civillians who are pushing for these army supply tenders and only have profit motive, not Kenyan interest at heart..that is why we will always have shit army and naval equipment….its not the first time either…the other day Murungaru wanted us to have some Czechoslovakian jets that were crappy in the eyes of the air force that was set to put them to use.
unless the elite starts thinking of the country, and our military stops wasting time drinking tax free beer, as well as the recruitments being majorly from central kenya (hence the mentality of the recruits that the military is a place to relax)..we will never be safe from any of our neighbours
Benjamin a thief do not warn you that I am coming to steel from you tomorrow. With the upcoming external and internal pressures the country is facing today, we really need the modern hardware in our Kenyan millitary. Actually you will not believe the fact that Uganda Army (UPDF) is the most powerful in East Africa today!!! Let us catch up with our neighbours. Maybe they are restucturing to take over Migingo!!!!What shall we fight back with?? Rungus and matchets because the machines we have do not work any more????
the fact of the matter is that we need to feel secure in our on country and thats why we need a fighter aircraft that can meet the modern challenges of todays warfare. by the way u dont need any modern weapons to do civil war. in the rift valley they were using bows and arrows and in rwandas genocide the most effective weapon was the panga. so we can light ourselves up weather we have modern weapons or not. kenya being the most powerfull country in this region economically also needs to be the most powerfull militarilly. thats why we need 2 have the best fighter aircraft that can outfly anything our neighbours have. our neighbours are busy arming their countries with modern stuff while we are still depending on techonology that went out of production 30 years ago. (F5). THAT DEAL STINKS OF CORRUPTION. and thats why some people are ready 2 compromise our security by buying cheap and outdated stuff for our military.
steve the f-5 is ok. you can imagine that the usa had offered them to taiwan against the chinesse until late 80,s. if they were not worth it wouldn,t that be sucidal. for east africa the f-5 are dam good and the airforce has more the 30 years in dealing with that craft. when it comes to fighter the pilot carry more marks then the planes i.e u can have a sophsticate plain but if ur guys are poorly trained it no good. and training comes with time. in the force they is over 30 year experince with this craft. about the mig 23 i think u meant mig 29. its endurance time to stay in the air is infact lower then the f5. let me enlighten you on tactics. during the ethopia/eretrain war the the ethopia new from the russian that endurance time of the mig 29 was less then the su 27 and mig29 burns tons of fuel during climbing. so during dog fight the ethopians toyed with the eretrian on high low manuevors . the mig 29 ran out of fuel and when they had to turn to base thats when the ethopian nailed them. so tactics of the pilots and training carry more then 60% of a war
Seems you know something. Now can you tell us about the range of F5s compared to Ugandan Sukhoi Su-30??? Haki Migingo itaenda na hakuna kitu Kenya Army itafanya.
These are very old planes ill suited for modern warfare. During the cold war, the F5 was dished out like candy by the US to counter the roughly equivalent Soviet Mig 21, another very obsolute plane. All users of the F5 are getting rid of them (this explains why Jordan is no longer interested in the damn things). The Turks, Greeks, Taiwanese, Norwegians, Saudis, Koreans, Swiss, Dutch, Canadians, Pakistanis, Singaporeans, Spanish, Philipinos etc etc have either fully disposed off these planes or are in the process of doing so. If they are used, it is often for recon, lead in training, targets, etc etc NOT as a frontline fighter. The decsion to purchase these relics is nothing short of bizarre!
risasi, pole i took long 2 answer you. you dont mean 2 tell me you buy out dated equipment then u say u will rely on tactics? yes tactics work but combined with the mordern equipments its even better. the f5 lacks the range, the speed, the radar and even the avionics 2 survive in todays combat enviroment. most combat planes of today have digital multi functions cockpits while the f5s cockpits is dials and many poimter needles, this increases the pilots workload. it is also a fuel guzzler and thus spends very little time in the air and has a limited range. it is an aircraft of yesteryears and i must admit it was good during its day.
Dan, Chalo and Risasi seem to be the only knowledgeable lot to have offered comments on the F5’s. The F5 is still in active service today in the US Air Force and Navy as a tactical fighter. You don’t need to offer comments if you cannot do basic research even on the US Air Force website where factual information is freely available for anyone who’s interested. Someone talked about obsolete avionics not bothering to find out which version of the F5 is being bought! Those who fly or have flown F5’s will tell you it’s still as good as when it was commissioned and when you talk of aged aircraft, B52 Long Range aircraft that were manufactured in 1952 are still in active service in the US Air Force among other equally old aircraft like the Black Bird that was commissioned in 1961 and still in active duty!
now you are talking my brother someone needs to impact sense to these guys talking negative of this great deal for Kenya…let them consult me for the knowledge on capability of this aircraft will even take them 4 a ride if they talk to kianga as am a f-5 pilot in Kenyan air force
I disagree with all these issues about the F5’s being old. What may be old on those planes is only the external frame the avionics weapon systems are all up to date.
Apart from the Oil rich gulf states and the developed world very few countries can afford to purchase brand new and quality fighter planes.So what happens is countries like Israel have come up with ways of Modernizing Old fleets for some countries and i belief thats what has happened with the F5’s
Norway is buying 48 F-35’s at a price tag of 4 billion US dollars. This is a population of 4.5. With or without Nato, they can kanyanga Kenya like mavi ya kuku.
Kenya should buy the swedish jas Grippen!! and give the f5’s to the anti-stock theft unit or askari ”karae”.
Faida gani kununua mitumba when you are living in neigbourhood like ours?
I have never flown nor am i an expert on military jets but i have profound interest borne of unfulfilled childhood dreams. I follow the subject religiously and in my opinion DAN,CHALO & RISASI have goodviews.why are we always reluctant to upgrade our fighter jets inspite of ready threats in our belligerent neighbours who are better equiped?F5s are best left for training fighter pilots
guys i believe we’ve missed the boat by the river.we should ask ourselves why the jordanians are selling those relics.our fighters were bought ages ago,but have never been upgraded,even the avionics.if the country could afford to waste 10 billion shillings on a stupid referendum whose outcome was obvious,then i believe we can modernise our airforce.the operative word here is MODERNIZE not buying junks.by the way another referendum is on the way and it wont be free.get the point?
nasema kitu gani wewe!!! am back from my vacation.
Kenya has added more to its list . Z-9 from china for your information. why Kenya bought the so called relics ? these Jordain aircraft are well maintained and are up to date .they sold them after a confirmation of a supply of f-16 by the US. these birds are just a gap filler before new Chinese jets come along they server the purpose.(or now may be US fightr with Obama in power). they have a mid-flight refuel system upgrade avionic and in board flight system. look around and tell me who has that in east, central and part of south and north Africa.
we Risasi wacha porojo mingi. Unless kenya is buying J-11’s from China, i’d rather we stick with our skoshi tigers. J-17 are lso a good find and i’d bet all my 2 eggs that that is what Kenya will opt for if they trully go for Sino warplanles. Lakini mukununua J-10’s we are screwed! to me those were just an ego boosting machine for the chinese. With the same engine as the MiG-29 (Saturn Lyulka AL-31F) that burns a ton of fuel just climbing, we might suffer the same fate as the Eritreans!
jasiri very true we do not need Chinese military hardware from guns to aircrafts, these guys just copy and mass produce everything they come across
we Risasi wacha porojo mingi. Unless kenya is buying J-11’s from China, i’d rather we stick with our skoshi tigers. J-17 are lso a good find and i’d bet all my 2 eggs that that is what Kenya will opt for if they trully go for Sino warplanles. Lakini mukununua J-10’s we are screwed! to me those were just an ego boosting machine for the chinese. With the same engine as the MiG-29 (Saturn Lyulka AL-31F) that burns a ton of fuel just climbing, we might suffer the same fate as the Eritreans!
by the way what advantage does an air-to-air refuelling system provide to the airforce when we don’t have tankers?
I can,t say that Kenya is buying J-17or not. but its a good options as it is an upgrade of the Israeli F-16 built in china. The mig-29 burns fuels as its meant to climb abnormally fast. So if you lift its nose there goes the fuel dial.
By the way the Eritrean Air Force has managed to procured 6 Su-27
replace the “dot” with a real “.” i cant paste the website
update yourself maybe we are talking about two different birds:
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_34.html
http://www.patricksaviationdotcom/photos/ricardo.ricjam/19426/
http://www.patricksaviationdotcom/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
http://www.patricksaviationdotcom/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
http://uk.youtubedotcom/watch?v=Hqmwfsh5nes&feature=related
luck you just click below \
update yourself maybe we are talking about two different birds:
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_34.html
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/19426/
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqmwfsh5nes&feature=related
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18195/
reply 2 risasi, wellcome back from your vacation, its only 3 three f5″s from the jordanian collection that have mid air refueling and for your infomation kenya does not have airborne fuel tankers. we simply cant afford them and they are not of strategic importance 2 us. so the quetion of mid air refueling does not arise. the chinese z9 is acttually a light utility helicopter with little combat use, they will most likely be used for shuttling top brass around. pls this info is available in the internet for everone to see.
common men its not personal. dot be so tha way…. for inform fighter can perform mid flight refuel among themselve. and also for low buget airforces there avoilable kits that can tconvert their normal cargo plane to tankers and back . Z9 will beused for shuttling top brass around .wats wrong with that? you just want them to stay in th hangers?in wartime they wil be used for logistics shipments.
Risasi u got me there. I had forgotten all about buddy stores. previous comment retracted.
Guys, I dont mean to rub your noses in the dust, but I gotta hand it to some of you for ignorance. You all ought to read what risasi has given, man knows his thing for sure. But as a Military Man, I can tell you without contradiction that our Armed Forces is without equal in these parts. Our Air force had complete Air dominance at present in the East African skies. Bear in mind what Risai says about the balance of power being tilted to the Pilot than the plane – it works similarly with all ordnance. In Simulations we have repeatedly carried out yearly, on the board though, our Armed Forces are shown to be entrenched in Kampala City within 48 hours of engagement and to wipe out all active organised resistence in Kampala within 72 hours of jump-off from the border!! Ask any military officer who has engaged in our War games at DOD, if you reckon I am blowing smoke.
Wishful talk. Kampala when Kisimayo is becoming a rock for KDF.
i have never had fighters perform mid air refuel among them selves, its simply impossible, maybe converting cargo planes might make sense but i we dont have that capability. to answer tom, i like your patriotism an i also belive in my country but in war things are different. never underate ur enemy an dont think ug can be such a walk over, in my estimate war between the two countries can never have a clear winner an might end up being long an costly to both sides. the only advantage we might have over them is to stop their goods passing in kenya, esp oil. having air dominace over them i dont think so coz they are known to fly mig 21 which are equal to our f5s and also mig 23 which are far better than f5. their ground air defence capabilites are also fomidable. their tank force is obsolute consisting mainly T54 an T55 most of which are grounded due to poor maintance, but they have a large infantry force, far larger than ours and most of them are battle hardened. its been nice corresponding with you guys an i finally rest my case an end this correspondence.
“Guys, I dont mean to rub your noses in the dust, but I gotta hand it to some of you for ignorance.” Never say impossible buddy. Tafadhali don’t be adamant bout things you know little of. How do you think carrier based aicraft refuel?
WE do not need air refuelling in order to wage war with uganda from the main fighter base IN nanyuki….. a fully prepared F5 bomber can take off from Nanyuki…and drop ordnance in kampala within six to seven minutes of flying time.likewise we can sort out most of somalia from wajir forward base and sudan from lokichogio….
we
Wisdom Archived?
Declassified
thanks Tom for the good word you passed across. And for Steve it was a pleasure in the conversation . wish you the best in your endeavors. i like to inform people esp. when matters pertaining military ignorance and second hand info that floats around.i understand due to lack of first hand information people would always create and rely on rumors and hear say to fill in the vacuum. its natural.
what Tom told you is a tip of classified info. and i will shade more light on it and anybody how wish to enlighten himself let him do so. mweneye macho haambiwi tazama.
yes there is corruption in Kenya and the military system. but do you think that the military is stupid or naive in decisions making and procurement? items would be purchased slight above the normal selling price due to kick backs and so forth. but is the staff worth it?.
kDOD does a lot of classified Ops that don,t reach the common mwanainchi and it is in this ops and exercise that deter any large minded neighbor from any act of aggression.they was a time when our western border neighbor was bring alot of trouble? being an immanent guerrilla he wanted to extend his empire to our country? to make the long story short, boys were trained in Libya with intentions of crossing our border in the west into Kenya. to achieve this ambition a package of an anti aircraft system. a radar and missile batteries and guns. was establish by our western neighbor meant to deter the then 82AF. Most of their MiG,s were grounded at this time. do you remember those guys and those days. and ask your self what happened to his ambition. why he change direction and went to Congo DRC to make trouble thereafter . why did in,t he go on to achieve his ambition? .well this what happened . one Sunday evening we sent 2 fighter across the border to test his new acquire air defense system. at around 5:30 – 6:00 pm local time when his solider were queuing up for supper rationing and most of the anti aircraft guns were unmanned , our “Cats” (nick name for F-5 tigers ) flew above them at a very low speed and height that the ground crew could definitely recognize the black,red and green ensigns paintings at the tails of the above air crafts. the F-5,s rolled over and did low speed maneuvers. when they realized what was going on, sounded alarms and scramble to there anti aircraft Guns. the Cats turned and headed back home. no bombs drop no guns fired but the war was over. their radar operators only managed to recognize “clumsy images ” on their screens.. that’s just some of it
Su-27/MiG -23 vs F-5
the Ethiopia Su-27 and Uganda MiG 23 are good in paper. can stay longer in the air and can go a great more distance.it has big engines and can climb and mover fast when need be. but they have a big shortcoming in the air which is virtual to us. they are to big and bulky for any formidable dogfight with a F-5.
they need a large turning radius and without “thrust vectors engines” they can,t out perform an F-5 in a dogfight. the F-5 has one of the best weight to thrust ratio most fighter don,t have and can turn more quicker at short radius then them..i would therefore guess therefor strategy is to hit the F-5 at a distance well before any dogfight.this is KNOWN. tactics to counter such a strategy is also known.
JUNK WARS ???
the F-5 that Kenya bought from Jordan were top in there arsenal. Jordan sold some of its F-5 to Singapore to maintain and upgrade this ones. they then sold them to Kenya after they secured a deal of f-16 and their boys were confidant they could manage the new birds and not like scrap as it has been mention above. this fighters have come in as a bridge before Kenya can purchase and manage effectively a new fighter(normally in a span of 5 years). Chile Singapore Brazil turkey Swiss among many all modifying the F-5 until their airframes were air unworthy and could no longer take it anymore. even as latest F-16 were being procured upgradings of F-5 were going on and by the way these are not poor countries. they also have other aircraft’s in there hangars like Mirages, F-4 etc. why were they doing this ? is it just a shear love for this aircraft?or maybe they have too much to spend? maybe? you tell me. Iran not forget it with all it oil wealth has even add an extra tail to the F-5 and using it despite all it American embargo’s.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/256431/irans_new_saegheh_fighter_enters_service/
now ask your self what is it that this air force generals some in NATO spheres know about F-5 ,that they would only part with it after it physical structure can no longer support it, a last and final resort.why is it that they gave more life to this aircraft. i mean just take any other aircraft put in a digital screen a good radar on its nose ,computers and BVR missile under its wings and use it. so simple not so, but why the F-5?
flight fueling Mr Steve:
about mid flight refueling between fighter has been done since early 1920. this is done by simple pods called buddy tanking pods.
how do you think the US Navy operates with out KC tanker in the deep sea in case of an eventuality.
first you have to know why we need to refuel a fighter. i guess your answers is to achieve a long distance and time endurance. but this is just part of the story when it comes to tactics.for Evey aircraft to take off it has a maximum take off weigth.this is the amount of load it can take off with.i.e fuel plus ordinance. but the military has managed to go around this.it has been realize that once an aircraft is airborne and extra loading can be done to surpass its designed maximum takeoff weights.therefore with this in mind suppose a max. take off weight of aircraft is 1000kg then an aircraft can be loaded with 900kg of ordnance/weapons and 100kg of fuel just ample for take off. once airborne it can be filled with more fuel for its mission, share tactic Mr. Steve.
below are some of refueling pod that Kenya is considering buying
http://www.sargentfletcher.com/bus_dev/flyer_28_300_bbs.pdf.
Click to access flyer_34_000_wp.pdf
God willing you will see at this years end jamuhuri Day parade what you tax money has purchased
Wisdom Archived?
Seems like very many Kenyans are ignorant of our airforce ability! Thanks risasi for confirming all those stories my cousin (R.I.P.) in the airforce used to tell me while growing up.
Going thru this debate made an interesting read. I gathered that an upgraded F-5 could match an SU-27?? Why can’t Kenya talk to Turkey? They assemble F-16s am sure we could get a better deal from this NATO partner.-Risasi sema.
Mid-air refuelling for who- is Uganda Kenya’s major threat?? I think not Ethiopia has all it takes in the region we need to mordernise- our economy in 5 years can sustain a modern force. Andy
Yes Mr Andy was out of the office. About the Turkey F-16. In order to purchase them a node from the Pentagon has to accompany it. Although Turkey manufactures these jets the USA still has the right on the END USER AGREMENT.
The F-5 vs Su -27 as in “Kenya vs Ethiopia” the F-5 has high chances of bring down the Su-27.
one thing you have to bear in mind when the Russians were building this aircraft they had they own goals in mind. The prime goal was to encounter the USAF F-15 which has similar dimensions and range. At that moment Russians hadn,t a similar fighter. these two country being superpower ,long range ground and air radars were available to assist these aircraft in shoot down each other at a great distance. That’s when the Beyond Visual Range Missiles were developed. If by any chance they encountered each the F-15 and Su-27 were of the same dimension. This will again go back to the pilots to achieve any credible results. The Russia knew this and to change the balance in a dog fight. they developed the thrust vectors system in there Su-27.
This is changing the direction of the jet thrust to help the fighter turn at a tight angle. Just like a motor Boat with an outboard engine. at this junction the new Su-27 has a great advantage in dog fight then most modern aircraft.
But bear in mind Dog fighters a rare in the Superpower sphere due to longer range radars, long range missiles and radar jammers .these make fighter fight a great distance apart. All this are tactics and strategies.
During the Iraq wars the Iraqis had good jets will maintained but each time they tried intercepting Allied Fighter, for every one fighter the Iraqis sent to the allied the allied would respond with 3 more fighters other then the one to be intercepted. They could see the iraq airforce take off well before they reach a engagement distances. They would actually contact the Iraqi pilots and tell them “we are six your are only Two would you still wish to engage”. This demoralized the Iraq air force and went out of action until the end of the war. That was the Allied tactics longer range radars to assist there fighters to avoid any eventual dogfight.
Back to our main topic. In the east Africa and Africa as a whole will lark that sophisticated airborne system that would help those bulky aircrafts achieve there potential. a dogfight is the only way that would settle down the scores . The Ethiopia Su-27 looks similar to the Russians Su-27 but lark the thrust vector system. which is again very complicated and expensive to maintain. A malfunction could send the aircraft to the moon or straight to the ground. Therefore with out the thrust vectors system the Mig-23 and Su-27 are bulk and large fighters unsuitable for air to air combat.. According to intelligence report, Ethiopia has 15 Su-27, Uganda has 5 Mig -23, and Kenya has 25 F-5. Work out the mathematics. assuming that all three countries will have the resource to maintain and keep them airborne worthy)
risasai,
increadible videos. tha data on ethiopia, uganda and kenya airforce jets. i believe we have less than 7 functioning f5 and hawker hunters were originaly 30 ? the HH am not sure how many are air worthy tho but am not sure they can fit in modern battle theatres. i have not seen them for so looong even in air shows. i have never been a fun of any chinese product. so to mention the purchase of their jets makes me shiver…its not worth it. go for quality and time tested products. look at the army truck and the Y12 planes ? jeeeez.
Well, with all this jargon going about a 30-year old piece of junk one is left wondering whether we guys are serious about our safety!Mach 1.7! which serious airforce today dons fighters flying this slow manze?And, this days ‘stealth’ is the in thing bana, if not, then mue na some reliable radar-jamming system which I can comfortably say,hatuna! It then boils to either having radar poa na junk,or fighterz poa bila radar poa coz we aren’t like kina States or Russia who have both and more.Kenya’s option is aquiring better fighters, kitu ka Grippen au F-16 hata ka these were the ones being bought as 2-nd hand.So those guys mooing about the F-5’s good thrust-to-weight ratio and/or better fuel management as tactics,mmtashtuka!!!! You think the nerds responsible for developing this things hawajafikiria hio story?ditchini that mediocrity coz it has no place near a country’s security issues bana!!!!!!!!
l have been following this discussion very closly,l dont know much about the F;s,Migs…name them.Bt being a private pilot(trainee)n hoping to fly for the Kenya aiiforce sometime something is realiy biting me offf…Cn this small country by the name Uganda bring us down!Hey Risasi,impact some knowledge in me.R you working with the airforce?
Is that a US Airforce/Navy A-10 Warthog in your college? How did it get here? I didn’t know the US military gave donations outside the US?
waona hiyo pic peke yako chronicle? where is the pic of the worlds meanest close air support warplane?
2 Andy
nime relux . am waiting for guys to Ji_enjoy then niwapashe.
Risasi
it was a school trip to the US,they dont belong nor donated to our college.
which warthogs are patrick and chronicle talking about?
Sorry all,
Patrick left a link to his college website, http://www.skypathaviation.org/.
On the front page is a picture of what I initially thought was an A-10 Warthog. When I asked him about it (above) he said the picture was taken during a field trip to the US and that the aircraft was not in their school compound.
ya seen the bird its A-6 USN intruder/prowler . its a carrier based jet . folding wings. the frame was used for many missions from jet to jet refueling to radar jamming….
The Motto TUKO IMARA ANGANI still stands
Never judge a book by its cover
KAF is still and remains the most prepared Airforce in East and Central Africa despite the few F5
All you need are good pilots and good tactics.
our f-5’s have largely been for entertaining the prezzi at public holidays.
with the new katiba,am sure you know that we will only have 3 public holidays.your guess is as good as mine,after that,the fighters will continue to gather dust in a bunker somewhere in laikipia
Your idiotic opinions are not only offensive and derogatory of our Uniformed Services and the Tax Payers who maintain them, but also more critically they are of no value to anyone including yourself. Typical glib remark on extremely serious issues that trivializes them and insults the intelligence of those who per chance happen to read them. There is a wise saying that one needs to cogitate before putting one’s mouth into any gear – you would be well advised to use this wisdom, mate! Please give us a break, buddy!!
well, this has been the most interesting debate i have read of late. risasi and tom ole nkarei … i strongly believe u are former soldiers (air force and army respectively), therefore i respect what you say. ole nkarei i have read ur blogs on security on other sites, risasi this my firts time to meet you. am abig fan of airforce jets and navy battle ships. never made it to air force nor navy. all those not believing risasi i will encourage you to google “F5”, and see for ur self ! did major mwangi, one time sqd cmnder of f5 retire from KAF ? learnt alot about Kaf during Gichangi and Eshekety period at nanyuki. all the best to KAF guys, we love u !
Maj (RTD) H.E Mwangi is now the fleet manager Boeing 767 at KQ.
risasi,
i remember the incident u described above of ug guys at the border. din’t they call u ppl at one time to go and disarm a misfired anti aircraft missile coz their guys couldnt do it ? tell me something about the indian jet fighter going by the name LCA Tejas LSP-02, can’t we buy it as our next generation multi role fighter ?
To
Ernest Komu, on April 9th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Am trying to understand your debate but I am not get a full picture. You mean that kenya should buy a stealth fighter? How many country do you think in Nato have stealth technology let alone the third world countries and oil rich states? About march 1.7 that the maximum speed the jet can attain but its not practical in a normal fight.
1. the fighter will burn off it fuel very fast.
2. turning at these distance incase in a dogfight the pilot will encounter very high “G” force (more then X10 gravitational pull) that the pilot will definitely black out.
About Grippen au F-16, the f-5 are bridging gap for a procument of either Chinese Fierce Dragon or Vigorous Dragon.
About the thrust to weight ratio and fuel this is not commercial based but an aspect of the f-5 that has made it loved by many.
Risasai,
Noticed that the unit cost of one Chengdu J10 (vigorous dragon) jet fighter is $28 million USD i.e (2008 exchange rate) but $41 million USD (export version, with parts and maintenance) well it looks tough but isnt also still under testing ? the JF-17 THUNDER (CHEN FC-1) aka FIERCE DRAGON unit cost is US$15-20 million (estimated) but the J10 is described as a 4th generatin jet while the JF-17 is a 3.5 generation plane. but really how good are these chinese jets ?
A late reply but FC-1/F-17 is a 4 Gen and J-10A is 4th Gen as well and J-10B is 4++Gen. Thankyou anything else you want to know my name is Aleem, a PAF Pilot currently on Mirage V.
aleemtally@gmail.com
To
Patrick, on April 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Its good to join the airforce make so hours. It thinks in your blog your asking how Ug could harass us.
But I will tell you something
1.This is the first time Ug has achieved a full military scale Force. i.e a functioning AF and ARMY at an almost professional standard. They might get trigger happy about it.
2. This is not the first time our neighbors have claimed our boarders as I know.
During Mzee time. Amin claimed up to Naivasha at the same time Tz claimed up to likoni Mombasa and Somali claim the north part all at once. Now do you see any similar Political environments within our country at that time and this time?
To
microprocessor, on April 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm Said:
LCA Tejas LSP-02 is still an experimental based aircraft. It would not be advisable to buy them at this stage. Let them get airborne and have its on track record. Kenya will always buy products with a reputable track record like the T-72 tanks which the public is not fond of were the Tanks that would have lead an invasion of the Soviets into Europe during the could war. You can imagine the dediction employeed by the soviets at that time.
Such mistake of buying new products have been made by countries like Zimbabwe AF when it purchased Chinese prototypes Mig 21 after it was placed under embargo from the west and could not operate its Hawk jet. The Mig 21 failed to deliver during Congo war. They secretly asked Kenya to purchase Spares for there Grounded Hawks being similar to KaF ones because.
those who are trying 2 compare SU27, to the F5 are simply day dreaming. the SU27 was meant to compete with the F15. the su27 is superior and is armed with BVR missles (r27) among other missles that r far superior than the sidewinders that the F5 carrys.todays dogfights is more f tecnology than pilots tactics. risasi pole sana wen u argue 4 the F5. THE F5 HAS NO PLACE IN TODAYS AIRSPACE. IT BELONGS TO THE MUSEAM. BRING IT ON, AM READY TO ARGUE WITH FACTS.
PLS LET US NOT FIGHT TODAYS WARS WITH YESTERDAYS WEAPONS.
Since I don,t have enough time on my hands, today I will answers microprocessor. Tomorrow I will be on Airforce one,s case. The name suggest he might have been in the airforce so I expect more solid facts and a sensible agument.from you Mr Airforce one, Brace your self
. I like to hammer in all the fact and leave no doughts. Sawa?
In you Blog Mr microprocessor you mentions Kenya has only 7 F-5. Now add the 15 f-5 that we are all debating about procured from Jordan. Plus 3 which need some maintenance. To add on this are 12 Hawk Bae. Which are used as a light attack aircraft.
About the hawker hunter , they were sold to Zimbabwe. One remains in store as a souvenir
http://www.ourstory.com/thread.html?t=355326
initially Kenya had more then the 7 F-5 you talking about i.e 5 F-5e(single sitters) and 2 F-5F(double sitter) .it had 12 F-5E and 3 F-5F most of them were lost in crushes. This was mainly because these were the first supersonic jets they had acquired. And the boys were excited about the speed. That was on the surface. But to declassify more, intelligence reports posed that we were indeed at a war. A nearby country was sponsoring the boys to crush them deliberately so as to reduce them numerical. When this was suspected one of the airforce high chief borrowed a page from the Israelis. During the isreali/arab war isreali pilots were so scared of the Arabs Surface To Air missile that they ejected when they merely so smoke coming from the missile launches. They didn,t wait for the missiles to lock on their aircraft , they just ejected. Therefore a pilot fastening lock system was device to lock the pilots to avoid them to ejecting, Kenya also did that for some time until guys complained about it. Our pilots if you heard back then could not eject from the fighter if anything happened.they were locked to the cockpits You must have heard about that. the system has now been reversed. Mambo ni mengi nduguzaguni.
Mr microprocessor
Our Chinese Stuff:
One thing you ought to know is that under the table the Chinese and the west trade a lot. They just fool us in believing that there are enemies. And if they will ever fight they trade will still go on still. lately The Germans have supply submarine engine for the to Chinese Submarine, some thing that you will never hear in the local daily.
Back to the ball of contention. As I told you Kenya always buys equipment with a solid track record, lets start with equipment that you familiar in.
1. The Chinese trucks called STEYR.
http://sinotrucks.net/en/quanqu1.asp?ClassCode=19
(right corner)
Bought by the army to replace the Mercedes 911 trucks
This is a license-built version of the Austria Steyr truck used by N.A.T.O for logistic. Very reliable very strong
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Suisse/vehicules_a_roues/Steyr_heavy_truck/Steyr_heavy_truck_pictures_gallery.htm
2. The Chinese Harbin Y12.
is a Chinese military built version of the twin otter
made by De Havilland Craft, the same company that manufactures the Buffalo. The Y 12 uses Canadian Pratt & Whitney engines
3. The Chinese Harbin Z-9 Chopper.
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/16954
It is a license-built version of the French Eurocopter Dauphin,
Anther NATO product
4. The following proposal:
a. J-10 Vigorous Dragon
Was a improved version of an Israeli F-16. the Lavi.
the Americans simple told the Israelis to halt the program as it would “interfere” with the American/Israeli military aid. The Israeli sold the blue prints to the Chinese and are closely behind its developments.
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/April_2007/0704042.html
b.the FC-1 Fierce Dragon
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/gallery/fc-1_28.htm
is a joint program between the Chinese and the Pakistanis.
They reengineered a Pakistani F-16. the F-16 that the Americans sold to Pakistanis could not march the India airforce they were simply toys. Pakistani was under an embargo for testing a nuclear bomb.so they could not upgrade them. together with the Chinese they copied the F-16 and improved all its short comings.
http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/soc.culture.usa/msg09103.html
I can guess your next question. And the answer is we simple can’t afford the original versions but we still need standard and proven equipments.
good day.
i hope Mr Process i have answered ur question on how good are this stuff.
Well, i will take that for now. dint know the jordanian planes are already here ? thot the deal is still being worked upon. the army track has already killed many tho, and i thot i read that the y12 has some missing essential facilities and that is why we lost akina dr bonaya godana ? did we already buy the z9 kwani ? a firend of mine lost his cousing to those chineese plane…he has been bitter that they could only bury his ear ! i hope we can afford and maintain those chineese jets ! kns jasiri…fishing boat or real battle ship ? i have seen many of its photos…looks tough tho.
Sorry about your friends tragedy. Crashes and accidents are some time inevitable. even the first world nations do suffer from accidents and air crashes. You cannot fly an aircraft with missing essential parts. I wonder which part those are. Y12 has proven itself and 10years since it was procured its still flying. I think it’s a good record, a single fatal crash although none would have been better. Below is a composed article on KNS JASIRI MOMBASA.
ok airforce one tell me why yout think the f-5 can,t take down a Su27
KNS JASIRI MOMBASA:
http://elrincondelinternauta.blogspot.com/2008/08/jasiri-mombasa-corrupcin-y-mejillones.html
http://www.pbase.com/acnielsen/kns_jasiri
The Kns Jasirir is the third Military ship that has be bought from Spain by Kenya, unlike the popular rumor; it has never been fishing or a civilian boat. It belonged to the Agencia Tributaria of spain which is similar to the US Coast guard in charge anti smuggling and drug traffic.
its sister ship in action.0:23, 1:23 seconds in the clip
After it was bought it was taken to a Spanish company which builds commercial ships for hull stretching to 85meter and Refit some basic marine electrical system on the extended area. It will be mounted with various weapons systems from reputable European companies. This is not the first time Kenya has done this. Kns Nyayo/Umoja which was built in Britain by Vosper Thornycroft , has a cocktail of weapons from different reputable European companies other then Britain the country that built it. this includes Its navigations and communications system from the Netherlands Signaal, its Fire systems ;76 mm oto melara super gun (used by almost all NATO frigates) and its Otomat/Teseo Missiles from Italy among many.
It’s a common practice.
KNS NYAYO (right) and KNS SHUJAA participating in India’s International Fleet Review Mumbai India .
http://forum.apan-info.net/Spring_01/photo_pages/01-0447.08_2.html
See the comparisons
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=888256
http://www.pbase.com/acnielsen/image/78367213
KNS NYAYO/UMOJA
Nyayo and Umoja are 20 year old Corvette and still have no match in the eastern side of Africa expect from Egypt, South Africa navy of late and
American and French Djibouti-based ships.
Am surprised in Europe citizens are campaign for their countries not to go to war but its reverse in Africa Esp. Kenya.
see for yourself the so called fishing boat
jasiri class sister ship Fulmar 1
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.telecable.es/personales/sva/Fotos/Fulmar%25201/index.html&ei=1lUMSt3rJpTNjAew1s2zBg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfulmar%2B1%2Bsva%26hl%3Den
Thanks for the info Risasi. Does anybody know the fate of KNS Jasiri? I read somewhere that the authorities are keen on having it delivered to the country save for a few bottlenecks such as cost which have skyrocketed to Ksh6 billion up from the original 4 billon.
well well i have followed this conversation for a while now and i like what risasi has been saying about our inventory in the military – the Kenyan inventory is one of the best in africa – however some guys have complained about us buying alot of chinese military goodies -apart from them being cheaper they are also well tested over time – you should see what mugabe got from them as well as the sudanese – i watched an exclusive video about the chinese military and what they have and upgrading and seriously will as kenyans have a miltary partner to look up to for a very long time.
Thanks chalo for the compliments, I say now that Mr. Kenyatta has given cash to kDOD its all kudos, keep popping up once in a while to be up dated. As for Olekoima the deal on the “fishing boat” is still on .a lots of negotiations are still going on. The problem come when they was a breach of contract between Kenya and euromarine. We all know what happened. Somebody somewhere called it a scandal and funds were halted for its development. To make the matter complicated Sri Lanka became interested in the boat and were willing to cough more. Anyway those are by goners now.
Hey Major Tom what’s kDOD’s verdict on the new India military trucks? When is there E.T.A? By the way do you know Col. Kisoso. He is from your area I guess.
What happened to those fellow bloggers who were drum beating for Su’s and Mig’s against the F-5. Has the trail run cold?
Gentlemen, we have a situation, Somali !!!!
Your take please. i think we should hold our horses first as we go about rebuilding our arsenal on land, air and the sea. these fellows have nothing to loose coz dying as a bomber gurantees them “7 virgin ladies in paradise”. Are we ready/prepared to take on these fellows ? a friend reckons they give ethiopians a rough time, i thot the ethiopians walked away to give AU fellows a chance? my fear is immigration and police have already sold us out to these ppl via eastleigh…right inside the capital city. they can do whatever they want whenever they want. Are we ready really ? retired Lt-Gen Nkaissery quoted last week concerning corruption destroying our preparedness as far as equipment is concerned … so, what to do ?
I hear from a relatively reliable source that Kenya was given \acquired cheaply 32 Chinkooks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cTFqOCJhhA and 8 F-15 fighters from the US..Also in the arsenal is 300km range missiles..Does anyone have this info??…Doesnt this tilt the regional balance of power..Should we expect a arms race in East africa since this effectively neutralises Ethiopia who were the only formidabble force??…Isit true that Kenya has a reserve force of more than 500,000 soldiers??
Chances of Succes in Somali by Kenya Forces are high. The ability and the Know-how is there. To do this it requires a Peace keeping ++ or rather a Peace enforcing mission. Similar to the one sent to Sierra Leone by the ECOMOG and mainly the small
Guinea Armed force. I know by now your saying the Americans tried and lost but I will explain our advantages as you read more. Most Somalia’s have benefited from Lawlessness in there country in one way or other and returning them to a normal and peace life isn’t a small task. It’s denying many a way of life. It will not be ready accepted.
To achieve this, a Trophy prize exist in the name of Mogadishu. He who controls the capital calls the shots. More or less. That fair, I hope it will remain that way. I feel this will elude us from any Guerilla like warfare or insurgences. Which sends many military confrontation in circles.
To achieve this two things need to be considered.
1. The occupant
2. The Host
The Occupation force.
To maintain peace or achieve peace for Somalia, a good Armor and Air Calvary battalions are needed. At the moment, Kenyans Armor Battalions are at there best. The Air Calvary is there. A well shielded ground force with an effective air support from a Calvary battalion is the key word. Therefore in paper it can be done spectaclly. But the mentioned equipments need to be compensated for. These are weapons meant to defended the Kenyan Sovereignty bought by the Kenyan tax pays. Therefore the big question is not how it will be done but who will finance operation. There several choices. The Kenya tax payers, the Somalia republic, the United Nation , AU or well wishers.
If the United Nation is involved then a second army mainly a western nation will have to be there. The U.N will never trust an African country with an open United nation Check. On the other hand the Somalis have a negative perception of the west and this will taint our image. I will explain this latter. As for the AU and the Somalia government they don’t have the supporting cash for the Operation. Let’s hope this will changes. The Well wishers are good financer but there funds can stop prematurely with change of government policies.
The Host.
The host nation holds the silver bullet. There perceptions towards the foreign army? This is where Kenya has a big Plus over many. unlike the Ethiopian which fought the Ogaden war against Somalia, Kenya has never had direct military confrontation with Somali and Our armed force which are drawn from different corners of the nation have Somali speaking soldier. This includes high ranks offices present and past among them are former Army commander like Lt. Gen Aden who can speaks Somali. In general Somalia public is likely to see us as a brother rather then a foe. An Arbitration force rather then an occupying one. And this is the perceptions that Ethiopians, the West and US can not make up for.
The Somalia’s in general see them as invaders. The ability to winning the hearts and mind of the people will give us a leading edge over many militaries and equipments . But if we mix our military with other force for any reasons what’s so ever it’s very likely that our impression can end up tainted.
Let’s wait and see what C.G.S and the defense staff has to say. If the boys will have to go in yes some boys will never come back and some will come back differently. but Inzi kufa juu ya kidonda ni kawaida. That’s there Job.
Abc The clip seen is an Exercise EDGE MALLET. The helicopter used are not Chinooks but US Navy phrogs ch-46. 32 Chinooks that’s quiet a handful for Kenya. This are twin rotor chopper which require a high quality of maintance. If they were to come they would be In batches.
For the F-15 strike eagles I highly dought. The USAF maintains a high confidential Proliferation of it is second best striker after the F-22 .its only been issued to 3 of its allied. Israel which is obviously, Saudi as a “thank you note” for there Oil, Japan there biggest and best ally in the far-east. Countries like South Korea, Australia, have all been excluded. its unlikely Kenya is joining The quartets.
The 300km missile, there was a proposal of an India one but it was latter shelved. The only missile that can come close to that range is in the navy but it’s a ship to ship missile with a large warhead. Its latest version has a GPS capability which means it can hit a stationary 50meterX 50 meter target at sea or land within its range.
The arm race is an open secret. Etopians acquired hardware from N.korea , Uganda got some from s.africa and Libya we are still waiting for a Tz contribution.
0.5 million reservist I don’t know where that presenter got that figure. +50 thousand close enough if the G.S.U, A.P ,N.Y.S and resigned staff was to be included.
Abc,
Like Risasi, i also doubt that we can be given the F-15 srike eagle. Very few countries have this plane. The F-16 is more likely to get. May be Kenya should try buying the Jas-39 Gripen from Sweden or the JF-17 Thunder from China although i believe the upgraded F-5 Tiger still serves us well enough. I think the country should consider a few more helicopter gunships. It appears they are phasing out the current MD500 defenders perhaps due to age. I notice from Wikipedia that Kenya has acquired an unknown number of self propelled 152mm Nora B-2s from Serbia and 4 Z-9 helicopters from China.
Thanks for echoing my words Olekoima. Like I said the Armor Battalions are now at there very best since our independence. The country’s military Arms are being balanced out. Our deficiencies in APC/IVF and ground to air defense systems, are now being compensated for. Not mentioning that, the existing ones are being improved. For a country whose G.D.P comprises of selling roasted coffee beans, tea leaves and tourism its Kudo,s.
If you look at African countries (militarily). of those which we can consider to be in a “same league”, we are ok. Look at the militaries Inventories of Cameroon, Nigeria, Ghana, S.Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Chad , e.t.c. visa vie ours, our quality and reputations and equipments are well above the 80% mark in most faculties.
They could be having equipments which we don’t but our military is generally balanced.
For Sub Saharan African we have a top number. That is fair enough.
I wonder given the level of corruption in Kenya if they are not buying all these F-5 spare parts as a front for Iran? They have yet to get the planes from Jordan and they might at best have 2 F-5 planes flying. Maybe a replay of the Ukraine T-72 tanks seized by Somali pirates destined for Southern Sudan.
Hmmmm … interesting dimension. Its been over a year since the Jordanian deal was exposed. Have the jets arrived?
The F5 is a reasonable good plane for any poor country to stock. Iran has reverse engineered this plane and is now making its own Jet Fighters perhaps we should do the same and create a plane industry like sudan.
http://johnkaranja.com/2008/12/22/kenyas-armed-forces-pictures-and-facts/
Khalid, Rockwell Collins, a major US defence company reported in its 2nd Quater 2008 (24/04/08)earnings business highlights “Rockwell Collins was selected by Jordan Aeronautical Systems Company (JAC) for the upgrade of F-5 fighter aircraft. Rockwell Collins Government Systems will provide a Rockwell Collins Business and Regional avionics system to JAC for the upgrade of 15 F-5 fighter aircraft which are to be resold to the Kenyan Air Force. The contract also provides for the initial installation and additional modification support for an estimated 14 months.
http://www.encompass.info/news/page10599.html
14 months arent over yet, so the aircraft havent arrived yet, so do start getting suspicious.
Of more interest, most developing countries take the route of developing home based military maintanance industries as a stepping stone to having their own fully fledged military industries. Is there any effort in the Kenyan military to start the same, to maximize on our “professionalism”such as upgrade of systems (under licence, for example). Jordan, Ethiopia,Sudan,Egypt etc are all doing this, as a way of gaining the skills & technology transfer, & eventually these technolgies spill over into civilian industries, (aircraft, tractor,truck manufacture etc). Can anyone shed some light? I know the kenyaairforce website talks of repairs to civillian aircraft (buffalos).Anything else,anyone? Can’t we manufacture simple drones, for example, to help patrols in the expansive north eastern region & somalia?
Guys,as much as we tout our military to be the best in the region in terms of training, equipment, readiness etc, here is our major achilles heel. Our neighbours have made serious effort to develop industries to support their militaries. They dont have to rely on outside suppliers for the very basic & frequently used items.Please see the links below to see what i mean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Industry_Corporation_(Sudan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Industry_Sector_(Ethiopia)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/industry.htm
Eventually, these neigbours are able to develop a wide range of defence equipment, be it pistols, machineguns, uniforms, trucks,APC,etc. Unexploited potential in these industries eventually spills over into production of civilian products, eg medicines, vehicle parts, aircraft parts,hospital beds, office furniture, household items, plastic products, kitchenware, construction etc. All these contributes to technology trasfers, innovation, & ultimately,overall national development. My question to our experts on this forum is, where do we stand in terms of the above referenced area. Arent we grossly lacking in our strategic thinking? Take the case of our indian ocean coast, & the the somali coast + the risks it poses. Shouldnt we have delevoped an nascent industy to say build basic coast guard boats to help patrol these areas, reduce smuggling (revenue loss to govt,),illegal tralling etc. I read somewhere that we are the only major navy in africa & beyond that is no functional coast guard to do the more intense close-to-shore patrols..yet that is where the somali instability risk affects us most..We have to depend on the US to donate simple 11 metre patrol boats. What do you say guys?
Let me start by saying congratulations to the Sudanese so that guys dont think l am tryng to hate on there homebuilt aircraft.Am yet to get the specifications of these aircraft but from its price tag USD 15000 am pretty sure that it is a Light Sport Aircraft.Now how do you guard a country with a ultralight?which have a small range capability,less that a Cessna 172hp,payload of less than l don know 600lbs and on a straight road l can beat it with my Toyota AE91 1992model?l hope nobody will start telling me that when the Wright brothers came up with there first aircraft a joker told them that his horse is faster and could endure a longer distance than there toy.”Sudanese president was just tryng to make a point to those guys who are tryng to arrest him.Which am sure they did not give a damn”Kenya can come up with a better flying machine than this and by far.Main problem we have;l think the government is not allocating alot of cash towards engineering related activities.Those guys working in the airforce can you shed some light on these?Lets give our airforce sometime;dem aircraft gonna get here.LONG LIVE OUR AIRFORCE.
Aeromodeller,,,,,
i have shaded some light on home based production industries below. the Sudan’s Safat-01 aircraft which runs on car fuel is suppose to be a trainer. i think its similar to the project jua kali artisan building once a upon time. these Sudanese are mocking the aviation profession. am waiting to see what the have in store for Aircraft Conversion Course.
this blog dosn,t fail to amuse me as time goes by . the Blog seems to go cold for weeks and when you least expect, new suggestions and members prompts up from directions you can never imagine. its like tuko kichaka then all over sudden you get an ambush by a foe you thought you had subdued.
What makes it exiting is comments of topics that you couldn’t imagine a common mwanainchi could be conversant with or be aware of plus postings from renegades members of our armed forces.
i will post something interesting in a few days. i would like to welcome Izzo, Khalid and patrice to the blog. karibuni. those where concrete contributions you posted.
Thanks, Risasi. I look forward to your post. + the other informed participants. I am already missing your contribution.Where are you guys microprocessor,olekoima,abc,tom nkarei et al, please come alive with your thoughts.
Trying to understand why we lack a military support industry, ive come accross the below interesting sites.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_180.shtml
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_179.shtml
The long & short of it, if you are faced in a vicious conflict situation, you ultimately have very high attrition rates on your military hardware.Your aircraft get shot at,tanks,APCs,guns etc get damaged,destroyed,worn out, & these require replacement.Yet you’ve got financial difficulties, hesitant foreign suppliers – you owe then lots of money anyway,& they wont supply in time/or at all.What to do?You are forced to improvise. You construct redumentary workshops to repair your damaged hardware, you cannibalize grounded aircraft to keep the airworthy one in the sky, you start making basic spareparts. Over time, you gain expertise & eventually some sophistication. You reverse engineer some parts, & if your major suppliers agree, you manafacture under licence. That is the experience of Jordan,Egypt, Sudan, SA, Ethiopia, Israel, Iran, Pakistan etc. It is a difficult & painful experience, but it pays its dividends.It sustains the war effort.If peace ever comes, your maintaince factories idle,instead of laying off workers, you start making tractors,shoes, school uniforms, hospital equipment instead of military trucks, tanks, APCs, army unforms, ammunation. The civilian goods industry develops & the previosly thriving military support industry. & that contributes to overall national development. That is the experience Kenya hasnt had.
Abit more; so, in regard to Kenya’s standing in the event of conflict with say our 2 northern neigbours (Sdan,Ethiopia), however professional we might be, Kenya cannot sustain conflict for a long time. They have military support industries. We dont.We have to depend on our external suppliers.The supplier countries, esp the west, will put conditinalities(force you to negotiate,etc), instead of availing parts for our F5s, buffalos, tanks,etc. We might run out of ammo without external supplies. Our adversaries on the other hand have home based industries to sustain their war effort, & would not be dependant on external suppliers as much as we do. So, in the event of western pressure to negotiate, the impact would be more on us more than them. Yet, it would take a long time for us to overcome our handicap – dependance on external suppliers for the very basic items. & the west would leverage on our weakness & hunger for spares to push us around. My conclusion, let us not underestimate our potential adverseries. Lets be objective & see what their strenghs are. For us to gain the level of sophistication that i refered to in my earlier post about military support industries, it would perhaps take us a decade or two.
What is your take on my view, my dear armchair generals?
Izzo,
Thanks for your comments. You probably haven’t heard of the Eldoret ordinance factory that is owned by the armed forces. In addition Kenya also produces apparels for the armed forces some of which is exported to other countries. I don’t think we run the risk of running out of ammo in case of war with the neighbours.
kenya does have a munitions factory of NATO standards Izzo which can cope with any eventualities or a sudden flux of ammo. i will post my comments on the order of battle between the to mentioned countries
Mr Izzo I admire your idea towards a home based military industry but its advantages are much limited in developing countries more then you would imagine. The concern of relaying indigenous principle equipments is overshadowed by procurements of foreign spare parts what so ever the situation is. Due to lark of proper research and funds these industries have there limitations in Africa. The cons of these complexes are all surmounted on Reliability engineering. And this will all be felt on the equipment your military poses with. Reliability engineering involves a matrix of events and topic which you have to take in to consideration;
1. Mean time between failures (MTBF). This is the operational time of a equipment.
2. Mean time to recover (MTTR). time taken to bring back an equipment to operation status after it has failed or taken for due service. This is again affected by expertise service and availability of spares.
Among others subjects.
Research is very expensive; it involves dedicating time and resources to achieve a result in the Far Future. For a country to develop a home based military industry large enough to manufacture a complete military entity, spare cash has to be devoted to research and an outlet in form of international exports to sustain the plant and its technology. The more your product is being used out their under different condition the more your will realize its shot comings and perfect it .The match a home based military industry can do in a Developing country as of an African status is to support countries MTTR. This again will depend on the quality of spares parts (due to lark of research and resources), which will again affect the overall MTBF values of the forces. When these industries are set most countries tend to be addicted to them. This is due to internal economical reason and vanity sakes. They then create a false military illusion in the country out weighing the real capabilities of the plants and armed forces. Therefore set them up but know its borders. Creating your own large Principle Ordinance and equipment shouldn’t be in its list of to do items, if you are dwelling in a developing country.
In Kenya a complex does exist it produces ammunition an parts for some military hardware. It has a capacity of about 20- 30 million bullets per year. Built by FN Herstal Company which adheres to NATO standards.
http://www.kofc.co.ke/
http://www.mod.go.ke/kafc.htm
It’s not as large as the Sudan, Egypt South Africa or India capacity, but its up and running and maintains a standard. We bite what we can chew and we eat what we can swallow. We manufacture what we need and export munitions and military uniforms to the great lakes region. A good example is SPLA/M. most of its officers wear DPM apparels similar to the Kenya army. The complex came under the amnesty international sports light at the time of great lakes region conflicts if you can remember.
Local unarmed naval boats are produced to Mombassa with the help of African marine Cooperation. These are mainly used for ferrying duties across the kilidini channel.
Producing armed equipment is not as easy as you would imagine. From what we have seen and leant from these industries in this part of the globe it’s a waste of time venture into this fields fully throttle.But if your still not convinced, I am willing to post to you the quality and Reliability of local based principle munitions industry from south Africa to Egypt. in this part of the global its not a wise route. I believe at the end of that posting you will level with me that it is indeed not a wise idea.
hi everyone,
am very much a live and always make it a point to read this blog. its been, and still is, very interesting discussing my motherlands security with like minded ppl. this blog has been running for very loooong. i have followed keenly from the time i last said anything (somali issue), through all the above posts, while following events going in my motherland right now e.g should recruited soldiers be tall or short ? napoleon was short ! should we domilitary factories or not, risasai says no ! am also reminded by a soldier buddy thats its only western and nyanza provinces that he has never served in, yaani no military (army, navy or air force) bases yet UG na M7 with his ambitions are right there. did you also notice that two ministers (even top military guy) have been turned back -on their way to OUR northern borders- by sudan soldiers RIGHT INSIDE OUR BORDERS ? anyway, izzo i like your line of thot ….YES WE CAN, Risasi how will you know if you do not try ? thats why we train all the time to keep fit and to identify our weak areas so that we can improve on them, huh ? well, am listening.
A defense industry component of a Armed Forces Strategy only make sense when in efffect one is faced with imminent aggression at any level about that we face, or an active export policy such as the Israeli, Swedes and Chinese and others have. Because these are justified by productivity and consumption of the products that are churned out. A peace-time Fighting force that trains to develop Excellence of strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control -such as Kenya, cannot justify the massive capital needed by theses sort of industries. However, this excellence of Strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control also develops a deep ability to technical understanding of equipment and weaponry. Indeed part of our General Plannning involves detailed training and exposure to the manufacture of basic equipment used by our Forces, from a diverse sourcing. Kenya has therefore a well-developed pool of knowledge that would quickly be brought to bear in the event of an imminent armed conflict in terms of a rapid program of armament manufacture. Coupled with this is very concrete and vital agreements with several Western Countries specifically in contigent of this eventuality. In the “D” Coy of the Paratroopers, as Risasi and others will attest, every man has the training and capacity to personalise his weapons, by making sophisticated alterations and improvements that suits him!!
Certainly, preparedness is the key to victory for any fighting force, and we in the Armed Forces of Kenya, within the limitations we face, are definitely cognisant of this indeed. Of that, I assure the doubting johns..
microprocessor
i am trying to figure out your ball of contention but am not getting your debate or contribution.
the sudan issue , i never heard of it. May be they were local bandit. cause south sudan is under SPLA/M. they are on our side if a conflict arises. About the recruits, the new askaris have to meet some standard. Not so?
Risasi,
i was not really making a contribution as such. just letting izzo and others know bado tuko. was also trying to catch up with everybody esle on the previous posts. while declaring my stand on the same issue !!!! sio lazima tuwe at opposite ends all the time, ausio? have missed in action for long enough.
heigt issue, i do not believe it should be used to curtail ppls ambition to join forces. after all modern warfare is going towards not necessarily large number of infantry men but rather “remote” combat, yaani fighting an enemy you do not necessarily meet face to face. its time to go for intelligence rather than height. standards are ok but lets avoid “descriminatory” types like alama kwa mwili. joining forces should be appreciated as patriotism such that iwe like israel not the way we do it in africa ati job opportunity thus deny other tribes those opportunities !!!
sudan was all over the newspapers, they were not rebels, they stopped otieno kajwang and saitoti and even some top military guy …. all these ppl are among our top security men (civilian or otherwise), SPLM is on our side yes, buy why did that happen ?
sawa microprocessor i understand you now . you have been missing in action for some time now. hope all is ok. in our country we are blessed with a lot of human resource. we can get tall people who are intelligent to perform a modern warfare. Once we get to a position where the supply of human resource is getting diminishing then am sure the military will reconsider, just like the role of women was before in the forces and the issue of Home based munitions. alama kwa mwili was brought by mkoloni .it can be used as a issue for extra compensation when one retires from the service. about the SPLA/M it will take some time as the seeds of there military come from rebels and militias. with time things will be better.
Don’t worry twafahamishana.
all my comment are posted at the lowest tones that you can imagine.
Risasi,
am still NOT supporting your short v/s tall arguement ! even short ppl have very good brains by the way. yes, they cant do certain “height” oriented jobs but they can be very handy too, wana brains please. i can count hundreds of short ppl who are amazing in what they are doing which require purely brains not height.
as for women, am not sure they can pure brutal combat maybe wakae ofisini, garage ama supplies not the heat of the theatre ! my cousin joined 3 years ago and i laughed when she told me how she survived the combat training …. she was almost always never firing her gun, avoided handling the gustav, no combat is not for women. am aware tho that some countries are now allowing them to fly combat missions as jet fighter pilots, the best of them is now a Lt. Col in USAF, wako pia australia, israel, china, brito, etc am sure our girl does not do combat maybe supplies. tho am impressed by the lady major who heads the puma helicopter maintainance unit.
We have been so keen on discussing about manned air vehicles,what about unmanned air vehicles like the Raven and the Predators?
l think they come with more adv….no casualties during wars…good spys..and the best part of it is that we can zero in shoot down M7ni from a backyard in Nairobi.”lt will be like playing Play Station2″What do you say Risasi/Microprocessor.Do we have some?
pato,
am not sure we have any. am a big fun of forces and their technology but not one of them. i once saw some american guys (via the net) showing kenyan soldiers how to use a wireless controlled helicopter during the eagle mallet exercise in mariakani. maybe risasi atwambie hapo ! am sure we haev the brains to maintain them and pilot them around.
what Pato is saying is good suggestion. But why should we use a hammer to crack an egg. the boys can done the job bila predator i don’t see any treat or situation that warranty such an equipment yet. but all said its a good tool to be with.
risasi, once in mombasa airport i saw an aicraft with the outline of a IAI Eitan(though not that large) taxiing at the FOB area. I was sure that was a drone and if my suspicions are correct, what is the Air Force doing with a drone? or was it an USAF asset that was refuelling?
When did you see the IAI EITAN? It belongs to the Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI). Its an Israeli drone. The Eitan/Heron was just launched 2 weeks ago in Israel. When did you see it in Kenya? I can’t dispute because I have not heard any thing about it in Kenya. All I know is that a Israeli drone was use in shooting up a Gaza-bound Iranian arms convoy traveling through Sudan. I don’t know.
“i saw an aicraft with the outline of a IAI Eitan(though not that large)” Notice the details in the words, like but not an israeli eitan. Maybe it was a heron, remember the Heron has been in service longer then the Eitan(only recently PUBLICLY commissioned) it was painted white with a varnish brown band around its fuselage. Now tell me thats an ordinary lightweight and i’ll call you a liar.
Thanks, everyone for keeping the debate alive. Risasi, those are very insightful comments. Just came across something that may be of members interest.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw090707_1_n.shtml
Looks like those tanks might not have been ours,afterall. I recall Risasi saying that deficiencies in some areas are being balanced out (09/12/09 post).
Will these satelites, you cant keep a secret for too long.
Supposing the tanks were heading to S.Sudan, would there be a way to fool the satelite imagery?Maybe dismantle & pack the tanks into containers?I would hope our guys in charge are smart enough to go round this potentially embarasing situation.
Izzo,
fooling a satelitte (the “eye”) is not easy. do you use google earth free edition ? try using it and try to imagine how you can fool it…what it sees is what you get. even if you pack dismantled parts (33 tanks) you will need trailers kadhaa to move them. thus the “eye” will still see the large number of tracks originating from kahawa barracks moving in a consistent direction in a convoy. during the 2nd world war a general used a simple video player to monitor enemy movement by having traffic cameras all over the roads by fast forwading he was able to notice that certain vehicles were stopping a certain point in large number than moving back to a certain starting point. he concluded that troops and weapons were being stock pile ready for an attack, he simply raided the new destination giving the enemy a fatal blow. all i can, now, conclude, based on this, is that kenya did not do this thing alone – it had the blessings of some big “god fathers” who gave the go ahead to arm southern sudan remember soon they will have a referandum to decide whether to split the country into two.remember also that oil is in the south not north, also food comes from the agricultural south not north, that china wants that oil, north is considered a terrorist, and north is also now building its air force rapidly etc in short these fellows seemingly, north and south, are preparing for war before/after that refferandum. could it be the reason why some of our very snr guys were turned away from our borders up there and no one complained ?
RIsasi,
have you noticed how suddenly, after the mt elgon operations, the 20th para battalion is all over the news in the internet ? they were even discussed in the bunge ya britain which then said ati they have now stopped training them due to what they did there. D company of the battalion seems to be taking a lot of the flak yet it is is described as the special ops guys i.e the ultimate soldiers/commandoes like the CDU in mombasa for the navy. tho nothing much is known about the same d company. wasemaje ?
BTW, are “green eagles” from the 20th para ? could the so called D company be the green eagles ? those guys are damn good !
D coy is a part of “WE THE PARA” battalion. Meant to be dropped behind enemy lines to cause havoc and vector in artillery or fighters. Disrupt supplies or even shoot down surface to surface missile with anti aircraft missile as SSM are being lunched. They can do the job sawa. the CLEARENCE DIVING UNIT.CDU is from the navy is suppose to be like he Special Boat Service of the uk or the SEAL of the usn. They have trained with them. They should blow up enemy ship while in harbor during wartime. And during peace time get engine signatures of potential enemy ships. yaani when a ship is sailing the engine and generators are running it produces a distinctive sound a sound signature, for instants you can here a car sound and know that’s a Peugeot or Toyota with looking at it. That’s but part of there job. This is why when our ships a leaving kilidini time to time they will run with generators or one engine on off mode. Trying to mask there sound signatures.
Hey, guys, I have served with the “D” of 20 Coy, and Risasi is spot on about this and the CDU. Those chaps are damn good, I tell you, and train with the best. We have done covert insertions all over this East Africa, and done some realy crazzzy things too. Mostly disruptions of comms, some complicated disinformation, plenty of ‘take-outs’ of some chaps in certain command structures. A lot of the stuff you read in blogs about our Armed Forces really gets us a good laugh, seing how effective the disinformation has worked – recall the writting about satelite pictures of tanks tracking to the Sudan? Come on, guys, just how stupid can one educated chap be??
Risasi,
chineese, japanese and korean soldiers are very short, and they are damn good. you do not want to mess with them. look at the technlogies coming from these countries, i was suprised to see s GPMG coming from korea called DAEWOO lakini sio gari !
its about intelligence not height ! ha ha ha ha.
these are not short fellows:
Arming the Salva Kiir with reputable Tanks like the T-72 will be leading the SPLA/M in a direct confrontation with the Sudan government. A confrontation between the Sudanese home built Type 96 tank vs the T-72. This would also grossly change the balance of Amour power in the neighboring states. Sudan, Ethiopia, Uganda and even Kenya. None of the mention country has a tank that can match the T-72 in paper. In that case Sudan President Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir would have been the fist whistle blower to alert the West of a breech of arms embargo in his backyard. Even musevini wouldn’t allow SPLA/M to have such a tank at a Figure of +100 next to Kony.
Have a look at the below clips and get a feel of the quality of the SPLM/A in comparing to the type of equipments your talking about. This group doesn’t have basic military hardware supporting staff and ethics for such equipments.
if truly this tanks are meant for SPLA/M then will see them in action, cause they will surely use and parade them.
let as be careful with what western media say. Most of the times there usually use “white lies” to help them sell news. Like one instant, we normal conduct our national elections in December and this is roughly the same time the military conducts it Jamuhuri day parade. Tanks will be moved from nakuru/isolo to be paraded in Nairobi. Dou you no what Deutsche Welle reports “Mr Moi is surrounding the capital city with Military Hard wares await the election result”.
wa Swahili wa sema “kisicho fanana na mwenyewe huwa ni chakuiba”
wewe ni machokora na umevaa chain ya gold shigoni . tangulini?
http://us.mc595.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=1&.tm=1249395048&.rand=0hemq8erhr14e#_pg=showMessage&sMid=5&&filterBy=&midIndex=5&mid=1_2187342_AJMMDUwAASXQSngXOwmu4V02tGE&m=1_2190528_AM8MDUwAADlhSnhA7Aw4ai24jZg,1_2189894_AKUMDUwAAV1ESng8fARKKjApiaI,1_2189260_AKsMDUwAAI41Sng2uAvHR2HeOZA,1_2188626_ALEMDUwAALsaSngsegMz5i66gJQ,1_2188001_AJkMDUwAABTsSngmkQt5qWDx%2FGQ,1_2187342_AJMMDUwAASXQSngXOwmu4V02tGE,1_2186705_AMkMDUwAAYC2SngOPwGu72c0egs,1_2186090_AJMMDUwAALXhSngLMAswiXOgWFg,1_2185442_AI0MDUwAAJwUSnfrLwEqikvYDZI,1_2184507_AL0MDUwAAT4KSne5rAf2OX7rq%2Bo,1_2183875_ALcMDUwAAOlYSneq4wWFfDIxndI,&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&pSize=25&hash=1fd2b726df1d3171e0a38e428735a5c1&.jsrand=1896053
Check out this link.Was too long l hope l got it right
@Patrick
Thanks for sharing with us, however, we couldn’t see anything as the link you’ve posted is a Yahoo mail link. Please tell us what you found through the link, or you could give provide an alternative.
I wonder whether what i’ am seeing posted in Wikipedia is correct. In addition to the 15 F-5 jets from Jordan, there is an additional 16 F-16s and 15 F-18s from the US. Could this be correct? Anyone with information please? There also appears to be some 85 Abram tanks ( M1A1 ) although the wording is not very clear. I don’t know but this looks doubtful.
Should the above be correct, Kenya will then become the undisputed military power in East and Central Africa. No country in Africa other than Egypt possesses an Abram tank. Besides no other country apart from Morocco and Egypt in Africa has F-16 fighter jets let alone the F-18 hornets.
Olekoima
i saw the same posts some time back and thot it was a mistake, or a joker did that work. you see even wewe unaeza ku update the wikipedia.
yaani it is possible to create and account that allows you to log in and update the wiki so long as you know the syntax (rules that govern the way a wiki is updated) for updating the wiki. look at the m1a1 thing, somebody wanted to add data then abandoned/stopped the process or simply did not know what to do when he logged in. it is always assumed that we all are faithfull and honest enough not to lie when updating any wiki on the internet.
i personally do not thibk we have any of those birds nor that kifaru. infact the person who updated the wiki (line ya kwanza) did not even do it cleanly coz it is so full of errors !
I totally agree. This must be a joke.
hi
all said and done,after hosting el bashir with taxpayers dollars.cousin barry is pissed and that changes the whole equation
Micrprocessor,
The South Sudan guys have finally apologized to the Kenyan goverment for the incident that befell hon. Kajwang when he toured the border last week. This is fine, but i think those fellows need to be taught not to mess up with Kenyan officials again. They may be our pals but they need to respect our borders. Kenya should not be acting soft all the time, otherwise what use is our military if it cannot protect our territorial intergrity?
find the unit cost of an Abram tank,F-16 and F-18 . then multiply it with the above figgers. then you will realise the credibilty of this information.
Risasi,
have you ever heard of Pugachev’s Cobra ? its a manouver done by jet fighter pilots. jeeez, it is one hell of a move !
just read about it today and really, enough respect to pilot Viktor Georgiyevich Pugachyov who was the pioneer of the move. am trying to understand how physics applied to all this and how the engine actually manages to help the pilot pull such a crazy move at such speeds …. its like suicide bwana.
soma kidogo about it and help me understand this wild, crazy, suicidal move by jet fighter pilots !
i know about the maneuver. I talked briefly about it when I was answering Andy on April 9th, 2009 at 8:52 am and previously on February 15th, 2009 at 11:37 pm in regarding to the F-5 vs Su27. just pass through it and see the pasted clip links ,before reading below.
Its know as the “S” cobra and the Bell, in aviation sphere. So far it can only be done by the Mig35 (modernized Mig29) and the Su30 (modernized Su27). and I think the F-22 raptor having similar aerodynamic configuration like the mention aircrafts, but I have never seen any clip. the move was discovered accidentally.
the Russian realized due to its bulkiness the Su27 it can never out maneuver a middle size fighters like the F-16 in a dog fight. The Su27 speed and climb rate was ok. It could only do that either climb or run in a dog fight. But along the horizontal it took a large turning radius to make a 360 deg turn. Middle size fighter would easily use that weakness to get behind its tail. They had to do something to help it turn . they developed thrust vectors system. Using deflection of the engines nozzles to turn the aircraft. With this the aircraft could turn at more tight angles on its horizontal. During part of the modification of the Su27, it also lost its longitudinal stability. So they add an extra pair if wings called Candid near the cockpit to keep the nose up.
When the thrust vectors were turned to an up position the aircraft nose will be forced upwards naturally. Simultaneously when the candid and the thrust vectors are turned to both lift the nose up, then the aircraft will quickly turn to 90 deg Facing up with out losing power very quickly. If do so like wise with gravity in mind and position the thust vector to counter the downwards pull of grafity (when the nose is facing upwards) and also be at angle to push the aircraft fowards ( vectors at 45 deg) while nose up, the aircraft will move forward on its belly while its nose is pointed upwards. That’s cobra move.
The Colonel went further and challenger any pilot to a dog fight during a Paris aircraft exhibition. Nobody come forward. The Mig35 and Su30 are the deadliest one on one dog fighter one can have.
Very interesting maneouvre! It must be scary watching it in real life, as a spectator, I would fear for the pilot’s life.
For those wondering what the Cobra maneouvre is, read about it on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev%27s_Cobra
You can also view a short video clip of a US F-22 performing the Pugachev’s Cobra: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJO0KzTgcMI
Risasi, any progress on the order of battle that you had mentioned with our 2 northern neighbours?
By letting the south Sudan be autonomous, a buffer region was created between Kenya and Sudan. South Sudan will always be on our side. For the north to lunch a invasion it has to fight its way via the SPLA territory before get to the border. The same principle was used by the USSR on NATO. Buffer states were created between the to powers. NATO would have to go through Romania ,Czechoslovakia bulgaria etc in order to reach the USSR. Most of its energy would have been drained by that time. But for the USSR to reach NATO the above buffer states would be a lunching pad. the same principle is applied to Kenya and Sudan.
The Ethiopians mainly use trench warfare and attack in numbers . to deal with such always keep them at arms length and soften then with long range artillery. the BM-21 will do such a Blitz. When they come in there masses Gunship are meant to reduce them.
The Ethiopians always know the Oromo will be backed by the Kenya military in any eventuality. a partisan war. the Oromos are the majority in Ethiopia, but have be oppressed by the minority tribes.
http://oromooliberationfront.org/
Kenya military DPM fatigues.
Good thinking,nice strategy.Thanks, Risasi.
We are all now in the same page as we started in this blog. the Su27 is good for a dogfight with fellow hefty aircraft like the F15 or F14. The Ethiopians have the basic version; the Su27SK until they upgrade them to Su27SM, an upgrade F-5 can still challenge it. it will all depend on the pilot and his familiarity with his aircraft. The F-5 under good pilots has brought down more superior fighters like the Mig25(which is more superior then a F-15) let alone Su27 (Ethiopian), Mig23(uganda)and Mig21(bought ug/ Ethiopia) that our neighbors have. The Sudanese were on the part of upgrading there Mig29 into Mig29SMT which would have had thrust vector.
their upgrading has yet come into effect
microprocessor you asked on your blog posted on August 1st, 2009 at 9:01 pm “how will we Know if we don’t try ?” with regards to home based munition factories . I will get back to you.
Back to the Local based mutation docoument
1. MIC of Sudan and South African, Local mutation factory set to circumnavigate UN arms embargo
2.India and Egyptian industry a germ of invention and necessity.
The SUDAN MIC is A DO IT YOURSELF home kit set up by the Chinese to circumnavigate UN arms embargo. As much as much as they claim it to be manufacturing plant it is just a assemble plant for Chinese version tanks and APC. It’s a CKD module plant and not a full scale production plant. It moulds APC and Tank shells and import heavy duty engines to push the weight of the new conceived Tank or APC. On picture the equipment would look good but underlying it is a weakness. The type of amour structure worn by MIC Tanks and APC are weak and substandard for a modern warfare. This is because armor compositions is held as a state secret by all tank producing countries.
India
the Kanchan armour
http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor
United Kingdom
Chobham armor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour
The ingredients used in the production would not be shared as this would jeopardize a entire armor fleet over mare friendship reason. Whenever you look at a military tank specification , for instant the T-72 from wikipedia take note of the Armor composition. Sudan doesn’t have the technology to manufacture such armor and will surly construct its equipments in steel plate armor. Cheap easy and best. Steel plate armor is now becoming absolute due to the advance in anti armor munitions and a pierce with a shaped charge will lead to massive structural damages. Therefore although most of there tanks would be running during peace time but when it called for the actual core business of the army, they would suffer from low MTBF values.
Developing countries within the business of manufacturing principle equipments for its own use will definitely have a low MTBF values. As for Sudan a false illusion has been created like what happed to Saddam Hussein and his SCUD derivative. But again what can they do here under an embargo. The sudan industries are nowhere near South African stardards I think we all agree on that. Now lets look at how South Africa is faring.
South Africa too has suffered grossly from relaying on principle munitions from home based industry. All South Africa Olifant (elephant) Main Battle tanks (MBT) are locally produced. there the spear heads of a tank invasion in an eventually. Similar to our Vickers MBT or the T-72 MBT. There 250 – 300 pieces in store sadly only 20% can be called for active duty. MBTF very high. Kenya has more working MBT in its arsenals at the moment more then south africa. Out of 12 Rooivalk AH-2 gunship (locally produced to) only 6 are airborne worthy. Again far less then the gunship in embakasi. . I don’t think is wise to charter our military in this direction.
India and Egyptian industry a germ of invention and necessity.
This two military have a lot of moving and mechanical parts that local production would be feasible vise vie foreign procurements. With all there wealth and military aids, they have mainly stuck military trucks manufacturing. Egypt has subject its industry to mainly spare parts manufacturing for a long time. It has built locally APC but this are mainly wheeled one i.e these are lorries or trucks in Armor suit. Its biting what they can chew. They have cash for to sustain a research and development of armored APC. Recently they tried to take the next step in tank production. Egypt made the Ramese II tank. It failed and sent it to the US for modification. India also tried an MBT program and this what come out of it
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/army-security-forces/indias-mbt-arjun-its-standing-among-tanks-649/
so whats the military balance in this region?
Can someone explain what value we’d get in spending money converting our fixed wing pilots to helicopter training?
http://www.pressreleasenetwork.com/newsroom/news_view.phtml?news_id=2921
Is it that we are thinking of investing more in rotary aircraft.& if so,cant we train locally?
Separately,can someone adv what our most realistic wish list of purchases would be, say in the next 5 yrs, given our contraints (competing spending needs,drought,stimulation economic growth,limited budget etc) , against the backdrop of the insecurity & maintaining a significant edge agst over potential adverseries?
Would be nice if the breakdown be classed by units& make i.e corvettes, submarines, maritime helicopters, fighter planes, utility helicopters and battle tanks,, plus likely cost implication. I am thinking of stuff that can last us another 15-25 yrs, considering that most of what we have has lasted over 30yrs,served us quite well, & unfortunately, most of the inventory is coming towards its end-of-life term almost simultaneously, requiring simultaneous replacement.
equipments with the sign??? Are proposal or procurements yet to be secured
ARMY
Infantry
G3 and LMG squad automatic weapon
to be supplement by a new rile still being tested
Interceptor body armor & K-pot helmets
Humvee or VAMTAC
Mercedes 911 utility truck by the Ashok Leyland Stallion
Anti Tank
Milan Er
RPG -37
TANK
Vicker mk3 MBT mid life upgade laser targeting system and reactive amour suit.
T-72AG complete package for T-72
BMP-3
BTR-94 ???
Artillery
Type 60 Field Gun, BM-21 MRLS
Air Defense
Tigercat SAM supplemented/replaced by BUK-M1-2
Satellite communication system for Signal Battalion
Air Calvary
MD500 Midlife upgrade to 500MD Defender II/ MD530 Nightfox & (mast-mounted sight)
AIR FORCE
DASH3 helmet.
PL-8 , python,AIM-9M
AIM-120 , AIM-9x???
F-5E/F mid life upgrade to F-5S/T
Bae Hawk Mk52 supplemented with L-159 dropped
12 ex-Saudi Arabia F-5e dropped (lost to Brazil AF bid)
12 ex-Jordanian F-5E/F upgraded to F-5 Plus
DHC-5 Buffalo supplemented/replaced by CN295???
Westland Gazelle AH.1/ MBB Bo 105 supplemented/replaced by Harbin Z-9W/G
FC-1, J-10, F-16, JAS 39 Gripen ???
Wilson airport ???
HALLELUYAH!!! We finally are having a BMP-3 ladies and gentlemen. now co,plete the package with the krisantema!
NAVY
Kns Jasiri fleet flag ship.
OTO-Melara 76 mm
Gabriel IV missile
Otomat Mk 2 Block IV missile
Inshore patrol craft Spain
Maritime Operations Center (coastal & inland)
You mean Hrisantema Tanks Killer
yes i meant hrisantema. Man, with only 15 of these predators we would be the undisputed champs of armoured warfare in East and Central Africa.
SO HOW DO YOU RATE THE MILLITARY BALANCE IN THIS REGION BASED ON ALL NECESSARY DIMENSIONS OF WARFARE IE GROUND,AIR AND SEA AND HOW DOES KENYA FARE RELATIVE TO OUR NEIGHBORS ESPECIALLY UGANDANS WHO HAVE AN APPETITE FOR AGGRESSION?ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE ARE IN A POSITION TO RUN THEM OVER OR FOR THAT MATTER ARE YOU SAYING WE HOLD HIGHER GROUND BOTH IN OUR DEFENCE STRATEGIES AND SUPERIOR EQUIPMENT? THATS FOR YOU RISASI!
The military balance in this region is fluctuating so much due to ironing out of weak areas and having more educated offices at the Helm. For instance Uganda has finally resurrected its air force with the procument of MiG23. It has also enhanced a military collage like our defense staff college Karen Nairobi at Kimaka in Jinja to study on military science and doctrines. Tanzania had the best anti aircraft system in the region and a relative weak air forces. It has placed a order on Mig29 to supplement it s airforce. Kenya was lagging behind on air defenses system and IFV. it has procure Ukrainian Buk-M1 and IFV. Sudan has shifted its concentrations to Chad. So let wait and see in another 5 years or so. The region has also tried consolidating itself with exchanging information on terrorist activities disaster managements and secret military strategy in help each other against Egypt with regard to the Nile Water Agreement of 1929. A treaty like what Kenya and Ethiopia had during the Ogaden War. i.e if Ethiopia started losing the war Kenya would join in.
In a vitual military balance matrix a lot of subjects are taken into consideration. i.e the globe status, economy, education ,equipments among many . globe status plays a key role i.e you might have small armies being equipped and financed by a superpower in the background for its own desires. E.g the Ethiopian /Eritrean war was purely a Ukrainian vs Russia proxy war. Both warring countries had mercenaries, pilots and advisors from these countries. Sudan has used Cuban /Libya/Russia pilots in the trivial darfur conflict. If Libyan pilots were to intervene in a Ugandan conflict then the Uganda 5 year old air force would be catapults to a 30+ experience one. i.e the Libyan have more knowledge on the Mig23. so kilia mtu ana akili yake. Muganda knows if Kenya overwhelms me I will get Libyans to assist. Ethiopians will get there first cousins the Jews to help them and so forth.
With all said Kenya and Ethiopia are at the top of the list in terms of equipment, strategy and tactics. Both have a balanced, strong and formidable military in the region. Looking at there Con’s rather then the pro’s. Kenya has suffered from ethnic nepotism, mismanagements of funds and misplacement of military ideas. Ethiopia has lost out too. They have had a great dispersion of its experience Armed forces member and rapid influx of equipments. When the TPLF & EPRDF come into power they dismissing senior military officers who how had sided with Mengistu Haile Mariam. Some escaped into Kenya with their families while some were executed and severed long jail terms. as if this was not enough ,when the Eritrean state was curved out of Ethiopia , ethnic Eritrean left the Ethiopia Forces to form there own armed forces. Therefore experience was reduced drastically. To curb in the rapid influx of equipments Ethiopians hired expatriate to do the jobs.
This was clearly visible during the Eritrean/Ethiopian war. The mighty Ethiopian military struggle to repulse the newly formed Eritrean Forces. Asmara is less the 100km from the border. I fail to see how they could not bring it to its knees in any hook or crook tactics.
So in terms of military experience Vis a vis tactics and weaponology we stand out then most neighbors.
In military exercise involving the three east African states like in the NATURAL FIRE EXERCISE Kenya has always out shadow other states in basic military skills tactics and ideas.
Thanks Risasi, this is useful information. I did’nt know that Tanzania has placed an order for MiG 29 until i read it here. Could they be phasing out some of our MD 500 helicopters? I note from the order of battle only 5 instead of the usual 35 for Kenya.
Tz has placed an order for 6 MiG29 and 3 Mi24 . What it about the MD500 that you distaste. The air Calvary battalion is good for dealing with the influx of soviet and Chinese tanks and armor in the region. The chopper can knock out four tanks in a single sortie with its TOW missile. It can do scout/Recce and infantry support duties. With an open area Northern frontier Gunships are needed for counter attacks. What else is needed? The 50ACB is one the largest attack helicopter battalion in Africa. Search the net and see. Some chopper might be down but there not redundant. Its just a lark of spare parts.
If you want better pictures for wikipedia I can send you.
with the soviets habits of embeding substandard equipment in newer ones the Tanzanians won’t have much of an advantage over our air force. Remember what they didi to the Algerians? i tell you the Russians operate like river road guys!
What would be the wisdom & strategic thinking of TZ airforce commanders investing in Mig 29; my understanding is that, the 4th gen. aircraft fighter jet requires the pilots to have extensive training, air-defense infrastructure, and constant maintenance and upgrade, which would be quite costly to keep them flying. If they are struggling to have Shenyang J-5 (mig 17 derivative) & J-7 / F-7 Airguard (mig 21 derivative) flying due to airworthness problems, would they be able to support their mig 29?I know, they have a long coastline to patrol,& are looking at their north eastern “stronger” neighbour rearming robustly;they probably need an aircraft that can reach nairobi,maputo, or kampala incase of hostilities;malawi & zambia pose no major threat, as does Congo. My thinking is that the Mig29 would be way up the ladder. Perhaps a few newer J7s, which are cheaper & easier to mantain, plus some mid life upgrades of existing aircraft.
On is it that they have their eyes on tUganda, based on past conflict & expansionist tendencies?
that’s the situation the ground Izzo kila mtu ame amka. Midlife upgrade is moving on very first in the region. Uganda started the race when it bought 7 ex Polish MIG21 and Mi35 in the late 90”s early 2000 to revive its airforce. They latter upgraded the MIGs to MiG21-2000 in Israeli. they also sent 3 squadrons of pilots to be trained in Israeli for the MiG,s. This made all entire Tanzania airforce defenceless against a notorious UG with MiG21 2000 series. One of this refurbished MiG crashed and killed a Russian pilot in Entebbe if you can remember. This is the time TZ made an order for 6 MiG29 and several Mi,s too. But latter on it postponed the MiG29 plans but continue with there pilots training program at an Eastern Bloc nation. The suspension of the MiG program was to avail funds to procure a surveillance radar. The radars is said to have a good sweep like the one in MAB. A corruption scandal issue going on in kikwete regime about the radar procurement if you are following the news.. The MiG29 and MiG21/F-7 have similar cockpits more or less, so conversion usually takes less time and effort. So as you had asked air defense infrastructure almost completed, training in hand too. Now looking at what is going on at Mwanza AB you will get the see of it all. it looks like the MiG program is up again. And by the way the countries that you mention malawi, zambia & Congo are rapidly enhancing there air forces with Mi35 gunship. i have pictures of Congo Kinshasa technicians working on there Mi35 you will sit in wonder of what will become of the crafts in the next 10years.
MiG29 have a low endurance time so don,t worry about Nairobi. Plus a Tiger III can match a MiG29.
SO WHO IS OUR FRIEND AND WHO SHOULD WE FEAR IN THIS REGION?I WOULD THINK ETHIOPIA IS A THRET BUT THEN AGAIN THEIR TACTICS AGAINST ERITREA WAS MEDIEVAL AND STONE AGE (TRENCH WARFARE) .BY THE WAY EGYPT IS BENT ON CONTROLLING THE NILE AND I WONDER WHETHER OTHER NILE STATES ESPECIALLY SUDAN AND EAST AFRICA HAVE THE GUTS TO STOP EGYPT.WHAT DO YOU THINK RISASI?
Who should we trust? I think that question is in the “inside out” phase. Its “Who trusts Kenya”. The country has been involved in covert operations with the C.I.A in this region for more the two decades arms supply to rebels/Militias overthrowing and destabilizing many governments. From RENAMO/ FRELIMO, great lakes, south sudan, the ill fated Said Barre/ Mohamed Farrah Aidid plan , Mobutu Sese Seko etc. the C.I.A has enjoyed a stress free work station in this country .
The aspect of fear doesn’t arise in any situation at this point. he who feels is stronger let him come over. by now don’t you think the Ethiopians would have lunched an operation into kneya to wipe out Oromo train facilities in our soil rather then go into Somalia.
bravery is not an absences of fear but pursuing an objective while your in fear
risasi…
how is our armed forces readiness in deployment in case of our fall out with one of our neighbours…? and is it true that Ethiopiaarmy is twice as big as ours…?
When you talk about Egypt it’s a strong country. My perceptions are that even Isreal will struggle to fight them the incase of a eventullty now
DOES KENYA HAVE TIGER 3 TO TACKLE THE MIGS?ALL THIS DEBATE ABOUT F5s how many functional of them are in the inventory right now?
Ali,
i believe this issue of the F5s was intensively discussed earlier esp. by risasi. simly scroll up to previous posts and you will get your answers. the discussion so soo intense even comparing various planes vs the F5 in dog fights. it was also clearly pointed out that the ultimate decider would also depend on the “quality of pilots” behing the “wheels/stick” of the jet in question.
please feel free to read all the prevois posts … herein lies the answers !!!
There former blogs that you will have to read to update your self with this forum like processor said The f-5 from Jordanian are being upgraded to F-5 plus, in Jordan Aeronautical Systems Company facilities. this upgrades involves the Israel Aircraft industries assitance. There some upgrade topics that will not be covered by Israel due to Israeli position with Jordan i.e an Arab state. This uncovered areas will be upgraded by Rockwell Collins
the existing where upgraded from F-5E to F-5S by a Singapore firm
The F-5 plus and f-5S performances is discussed in the blogs below
http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/northrop_f5e_tiger_ii.htm
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17362
some fighters are indeed not flying. they haven’t been condemned as you might feel so but are missing some spare part or are to undergo schedules maintenance. with a little patch here and there they can be in action.
I had asked earlier “Can someone explain what value we’d get in spending money converting our fixed wing pilots to helicopter training?”
http://www.pressreleasenetwork.com/newsroom/news_view.phtml?news_id=2921
Risasi, perhaps you could shed some light. What would be the added value of such a move?
Izzo,
am not an expert in combat issues but from a laymans reasoning, if i was in charge maybe i should think along ‘what advantages do helicopters have over fixed wing planes in combat situations ?’, ama maintainance costs, costs of purchase, our immedite threats in terms of potential enemies and their current strategies in terms of weapons of purchase, etc what is my enemy doing in their armoury ? how do i counter that ? i would think long term in terms of what do i want to achieve by going helicopters. also can be a stop gap measure as i prepare to go high tech with my fixed wing equipment. ama vipi risasi ? tom olekoima whats your take on this ?
but am not sure why we would take current fixed wing pilots to go helicopters tho coz i’d rather recruit fresh guys and send them for the training. ama the idea is to train trainers for our pilot scollege ? thus persons with experience in other setups ? i guess the answer lies in looking at it in its most basic setup rather than a complex reasoning level !
I think the value you will get is that the pilot can fly both birds after the conversion. Ama? or am not getting the question clearly.
this is an isolated case and its wrong how the school is using it to booster their status. lieutenants have never been senior office in the air force.
IZZO – please allow me to try response. As the Officer corps is structured today, and Risasi will will bear me out, benchmarks are strictly set on competences that graduate one’s path progressively. Reviews are constant and competition very aggressive. But while persistent failure to achieve these benchmarks eventually result in your being phased out of the Corps, there are serious efforts made to sift these numbers to the bearest minimum, simply because it is extremely expensive to train and maintain one single officer in our Armed Forces Officer Corp. Now, it is clear to most of you that Kenya is aggressively building up an offensive Military Capacity on all Formations, to the effect that estimates available of USD400Million are only what is visible – alot of the spending may never see daylight outside the Military. Hence, the present strategy is to re-qualify these Fixed Wing Pilots, who may either choose to or are not clear candidates for progression, into Rotary Wing flying as a rapid expansion strategy of our Anti-tank and Rapid Deployment abilities using Helicopters. A lot of you may not understand that core to our General Military Offensive Strategy is defense in-depth which has developed Offensive Planning across our national borders – better actualised by Rotary Wing capacity.
There is no alarm in this, IZZO, and it is a sound and well thought out strategy. Risasi?
Microprocessor, thanks for your thoughts. Where are all these other folks?Please shed some light. Meanwhile,an interesting debate going on on elsewhere might be of interest.
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article32298
More colloborative info from Janes Mar 27,2009 Assessment http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/cafrsu/kenys100.html “Thousands of former and serving members of the Kenyan armed forces are being recruited with the tacit approval of their superiors, both military and civilian, to join the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (SPLA)” etc etc.
Then, lastly, what is our long term defence & diplomatic attitude towards the Illemi Triangle, with the potential oil reserves that may be lying underneath? Could be related to our behaviour to the GoSS?
Izzo,
Thanks for the link. I’ve read comments from some ignorant south Sudanese about how they view our military, they are best ignored. The issue of Illemi triangle appears sensitive, but i believe there could be oil there. Let’s wait to see how this will be handled in the days a head, however i don’t think Kenya will let it go.
Izzo,
Consider the following in a non combat situation maybe that way it would be possible to ‘reason’ in a combat situation yaani these ideas may help us forma basis for reasoning our answers to your questions while thinking combat theaters ! got them via googling.
Fixed wing aircraft
Advantages
• More economical – lower running costs.
• Less vibration.
• Good endurance.
• Plenty of space for equipment.
Disadvantages
• Wing tip or strut can get in the way.
• Continuously moving.
• Can be difficult to position.
Rotary Aircraft
Advantages
• Can hover – remain stationary in the air.
• Can operate very low to the ground.
• Greater maneuverability on the spot.
• Easy to get into the right position for the required shot.
Disadvantages
• High cost per hour.
• Smaller lower cost helicopters have greater vibration.
• Lower cost helicopters such as the R22 have very little room for equipment.
Risasi, you probably got my question wrongly. Why would KAF spend over 20m rand ( approx Kshs 200m) converting its fixed aircraft pilots to rotary pilots? & furthermore, overseas instead of locally? Why not train a fresh batch of rotary pilots,& do so locally?Could it be that we’ve got so few fixed wing aircraft,compared to the available fixed wing pilots, that we need the idle pilots crosstrained,so that instead of them spending downtime,you asign the to helicopters.?(that way,you dont have to pay more guys that u need,you just cross-train & cross-assign them to the 2 types of aircraft) Or are you intentious of having them develop as future trainers,as microprocesser suggests? Or do they intend to invest more in rotary than fixed wing craft in future?
Is it a good way of spending some Kshs 200m, if you were the decision maker? I hope you now get my drift.
Izzo, is it converting or supplementing? I thought the goal is to increase their training hence efficiency so that we can continue to maintain a lean yet a highly effective well funded force.
this boys will only be there for a short time and are already aviators not cadets. let the boys enjoy there tour of duty form the forces
There appears to be an arms race of some sort in the region. Everyone is suddenly re-arming. Look at Tanzania with MiG 29s, Sudan, Ethiopia with SU-27s, Eritrea, Uganda with upgraded MiG 21s ,Kenya etc. What is going on.
Olekoima,
could it be due to oil ? and the anticipated free government of “south sudan” ? what about being “an east and central power house” of the region …. i.e the big boss man ?
if you were the president of one of these other countries you have mentioned, why would you build your forces in this time and age ? considering who your neighbours are and their potentials ? notice all of them are building their air forces with tough birds !
if i were the one then if not for war then i would simply want to pass a message that mimi sio walk over, infact attack me at your own risk !
by the way, what is the difference between a mig 29 and a SU 27 ? they look a like to me !!!!!
The MiG29 is a home land fighter i.e was built to intercept enemy aircrafts within Russian borders .its an in theater fighter. It is smaller then the Su27. its small size made it fallout with small fuel tanks. small fuel tank + 2 larger engine equals to less endurance time. That wasn’t a problem as it was meant to operator within Russia i.e it could do a one way trip fight and land at the nearest air field. it’s midsize has made it a better dogfighter then an Su27.the MiG29 smokes a lot and you can easily tell where it is by looking at the smoke trail. The Su27 is a superiority fighter. Its function is to keep of the enemy fighter while unprotected bombers, gunships or any flying craft can roam in the enemies airspace without being attacked from the air. it also escort bombers deep in the enemies territories and back during marathon air assault. It can shoot at a long distance and can remain airborne for longer hours. It’s more or less an enlarged MiG29 but has lost out on close combat due to its size.
I feel the airforce upgradments is a dominal effect rather then a planed one. In east Africa It all start when Museveni and Moi raffled feather in the mid 80s. Museveni brought in N.korea experts to valuate his forces after. The results were without an airforce he should try to engage a major conflict or a professional military force. Museveni took the advice for granted. upon enter the Congo war the N.Korea advice echo back. he could not push inwards with out an air cover. Both his allies Rwanda and Burundi had none. On the other side Zimbabwe ,Angola and Namibia were pounding their enemies effectively from the air.
after the end of the war Uganda restructured its Military with an airforce plan being a focal point. The same effect was realized during the Ethiopian civil war. The poor state of the airfoces made it easy for them to move ahead. They too upgraded their airfoces so as to avoid a repeat on them. At that time Tz wasn,t concerned, it knew it only had Rwanda Burundi and Uganda to fight. the most notorious in the region that is. Its land border between each of these neighbors is hardly more then 100km. the Uganda border is mainly on lake Victoria. if they can hold them from crossing its 100km wide border they can easily attack the other parts of ug via the air unchallenged. with its exsiting MiG17 and its likes. it could performs any operations and fight any would be attacks from its southern parts. Tz is a peace loving nation but wouldn,t want to wait and experiment with an balanced Ug Force
time changed Uganda and ethopia have learnt the value of a functioning airforce the hard way. Sudan too had to do the same as it has an open and wide area to cover against the existing Chad reprisal. Sudan too is a peace loving country. Both sudan and chad are now armed with MiG29
technically they are the same in all variables except the manufacturer of the planes .their capabilities do not really differ.
The SU-27 has a slight edge over the MiG 29 though. I think the MiG is a little bit of a fuel guzzler too.
Fixed and Rotary flying are diametrically different and demand very different mental preparation / indoctrination. One does not cross-train here, gentlemen, and to any commander, crosstrained abilities indicate confusion of response / reflex / attitude. Remember that a part of a warrior-training is mental, and because the demands on the warrior are dependant on his equipment, cross-training is hardly done in fields so diametrically different. For instance, I went to para school, and also went to combat school – these two complimented my skills learnt at the different schools, and made me a more effective Weapon. In deadly combact, a soldier cannot be a jack of all trade, but the finite objective of a warrior is specialisation to the finest degree. Therefore my response to IZZO query earlier holds that this cross-training is an alternative to the exit-option for those fixed wing pilots who cannot see clearly paths of progression in the Fixed Wing Squadrons. And the Armed Forces proposes this altenative to retain already trained and valuable expertise within it, instead of starting afresh with raw recruits who must obvously go through the same warrior-indoctrination that may eventually fail or take years to inculcate in the recruits – these trained pilots are part of the Esprit des Corps, and available in the event of a general hostilities and general mobilisation.
So there!
Hey, guys, I have served with the “D” of 20 Coy, and Risasi is spot on about this and the CDU. Those chaps are damn good, I tell you, and train with the best. We have done covert insertions all over this East Africa, and done some realy crazzzy things too. Mostly disruptions of comms, blowing up things, some complicated disinformation, plenty of ‘take-outs’ of some chaps in certain command structures, Intel and surveillance. In virtually all countries in the regiion that conflict has been, we have been there, guys.A lot of the stuff you read in blogs about our Armed Forces really gets us a good laugh, seing how effective the disinformation has worked – recall the writting about satelite pictures of tanks tracking to the Sudan? Come on, guys, just how stupid can one educated chap be??
A defense industry component of a Armed Forces Strategy only make sense when in efffect one is faced with imminent aggression at any level about that we face, or an active export policy such as the Israeli, Swedes and Chinese and others have. Because these are justified by productivity and consumption of the products that are churned out. A peace-time Fighting force that trains to develop Excellence of strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control -such as Kenya, cannot justify the massive capital needed by theses sort of industries. However, this excellence of Strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control also develops a deep ability to technical understanding of equipment and weaponry. Indeed part of our General Plannning involves detailed training and exposure to the manufacture of basic equipment used by our Forces, from a diverse sourcing. Kenya has therefore a well-developed pool of knowledge that would quickly be brought to bear in the event of an imminent armed conflict in terms of a rapid program of armament manufacture. Coupled with this is very concrete and vital agreements with several Western Countries specifically in contigent of this eventuality. In the “D” Coy of the Paratroopers, as Risasi and others will attest, every man has the training and capacity to personalise his weapons, by making sophisticated alterations and improvements that suits him!!
Certainly, preparedness is the key to victory for any fighting force, and we in the Armed Forces of Kenya, within the limitations we face, are definitely cognisant of this indeed. Of that, I assure the doubting johns
Well said, Ole Nkarei. But with the above scenarios on what is hapening to the airforces around us,i reckon it is fair to say that the edge we have held for so long has seriously been erroded,-or perhaps wiped out-even with our upgraded F5s. Its a pity that F16s & Gripens are well beyond our financial means & amazing that we could afford/secure F5s 30yrs ago – a top fighter of its generation, & now we cannot afford/secure top fighters of the current generation. We need to work harder,guys!
IZZO, please allow me.
If you take that Defense Industries arent meant primarily to produce for domestic Military consumption but for Export, since the profit generated allows for further Research a & Development as well as Expansion, and a tidy sum to finance domestic consumption, then it follows that a lot of the Hardware on Offer in in the Market is generally over-rated, mostly duplication of other competing Hardware(similar capacities/functions), and may contain functions that are unusable in the heat of Battle, etc. The arguments for and against competing Hardware is mostly driven by the Objective to make a sale, and so might not differ very much from that between OMO and SUNLIGHT powder soaps!! Military Planners shift through this B.S guided by rational considerations of Functions Satisfied ( in the eyes of the Planners) and Cost-efffectiveness of this satisfaction. I think someone on this blog informed and correctly so that few Airmen who have had substantial hours on the F5 will think an F16 and the Gripens are a combat upgrade!
As concerns the shift of Air-power in Eastern African Skies, the truth is that the Race you are witnessing around us is infact a Catch-Up reaction by the TZ, UG, and Ethiopia. A factor that might not be clear to some is that the quality of an Officer Corps is a direct result of the quality of Education in a country. Factor that the depth of Fighter Training in Kenya ( fighter planes vide Fighet pilot) exceeds 16-to-one that of Ethiopia (closest rivals), and our much larger ability to mobilise the Economy in the event of open hostilities within a period of 45Days( Ethiopia Mobilised against tiny, puny Eritrea over a year!!), it will become clear indeed why Kenya has yet to face Armed Aggression from our Neighbours.
I need to explain too that the configuration of our Armed Forces follows a doctrine of an offensive defense – which generally interpretes as a very violently aggressive, fluidly mobile combat beyond our borders over an expansive front. Consequently you will notice that our Armed Forces have carefully constituted specialised formations that gives a very capable ability to project itself into any theatre to substantial depth.
Relax IZZO, you are in very good and capable hands, man.
There are no ABRAM tanks of any version anywhere outside Egypt in Africa. And just one squandron of even the oldest variant would bankrupt the economy of any East African Nation. Its is wholly unsuited for Armoured Combat here being hopeless superior to anything else available – ergo- it is madness to acquire them.
The dominant tanks are the T74, and some T-84 that South Africa has produced on License from the Ukraine. Even these vary in capacities due to the upgrades contained in each sequential breed.
Thanks Tom, I also doubted the existence of such a tank in East Africa. Somebody tried to post in Wikipedia that Kenya had some 85 of them. Separately Izzo posted a link indicating that Kenyan armed forces are helping train the S. Sudanese on use of various military equipment. Doesn’t this not complicate matters especially in view of the contentious Illemi triangle which appears to be claimed by three countries i.e Sudan, Ethiopia and Kenya?
Actually a lot of this training is under the radar, so to speak, and we are doing in proxy to the Americans since someone has to do it. And due to the Geopolitical realities facing the Americans in the Greater Arab sector, it is preferred to “out-source” this training. Our tank schools, and combat leadership schools are really top of the range by all international standards, and hence the jobs befalls us. But also, a lot of newly retired NCO and Officers are being sent out there to undertake this job – you cannot serve in any “armed capacity” once in the disciplined forces unless expressly the GOK grants specific approval!
As concerns the ILLEMI Triangle, the reason this little bit has not gone for arbitration or blown up into a issue of concern is because there is no contention about it’s ownership at all. It is raised up occassionally to stir up emotions amongst the uninformed, and give the impression that there are issues between the three countries on this piece of land that could lead to armed conflict. But in strategic studies at our Defense Colleges, clear articulation of “this Country Kenya” is made to explicitly indicate what we know is the mission of the Armed Forces, carefully and in clear details, from both Historical and Legal basis.
One thing though is that this whole region seats atop huge reserves of rare and valuable minerals that extend into the three countries. So that all this Military posturing is simply just that, and essentially the reason that these have remained underground up to date.
We have been practically in semi-mobilised state for years. And we are as ready as we could possibly be in peace-time, olekoima, and I think you know this too.
I encourage members to read a brilliant piece by Dr. Nene Mburu, a retired army officer on Ilemi triange.
http://web.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v7/v7i1a2.htm.
If you find time as, also check out an interesting study of what challenges Kenyatta/Kenya was facing,& we are still facing .e book Ethnic groups in conflict By Donald L. Horowitz
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1nC8htP6SE4C&pg=PA532&lpg=PA532&dq=military+balance+kenya&source=bl&ots=jwmhn2A4Mi&sig=hzueXz0M2QEtrrHpQWGiSczwRjA&hl=en&ei=t4WOSo-lIMv3-AaGjOnyDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=military%20balance%20kenya&f=false
& then, although alittle outdated,but useful nevertheless, see Military spending in developing countries: how much is too much? By Brian MacDonald, pg 127 Case Study;Kenya;Strategic Threat Analysis, down till pg 141.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F9NEecs7ACIC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=kenya+military+balance&source=bl&ots=bbNFqxgN4A&sig=KNPgI4IECSlnXhPZlrgXfhHrjy0&hl=en&ei=TJWnSuf8DNGgjAfv-YSrCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=kenya%20military%20balance&f=false
It will help bridge the gap between “those-who-know-more,&those-who-know-little”.
izzo i can see your doing a great deal research on the defense capabilities in the region. when you read through the Threat Analysis Doc. you will find its just what we have been discussing for a year or so in this Blog
Thanks Izzo, i have actually seen this book. It is quite interesting and useful especially if you read it all. You will notice that some of the weaknesses raised have now been addressed, Risasi has even confirmed these by some of his posts above same as Ole Nkarei. The book may be old but atleast it gives one some insights on the kind of threats that we may face and how we are likely to fare. Obviously we are safe. Let it be so for many years.
Olekoima, what’s your unit, man? Code it pls.
Izzo, pain-in-the-ass, you?.
Thanks.
attache at kenya defence college over.am impressed by the knowledge some of u guys exhibit though ill tell you what you say here is just a tip of iceberg.our airspace is well guarded and those migs at the inventory of our neighbors are menacing from outside.but our air defence capabilities is sufficient to ensure they make no impact in this hemisphere.chill over.
I have some pictures of east African airforces if Nairobi chronicles will accept to up load them i will send them. i think Nairobi chronicles you should create a page 2 now of this blog and charge it with a more friendly Caption.
Risasi – where have you been? And Nairobi Chroniicles might suffer the same syndrome of our Media, running articles and headlines to run-up their circulation. Else this blog would have long change the Caption.
i am there my brother, just pushing on with life. lets hope Nairobi Chronicles becames a patriot and keeps good of the Crash Military Courses we have conducted in this blog and rewards us with a better page and caption.
Some 1 yr old news.
http://www.fincantieri.it/cms/data/browse/news/000254.aspx
Maybe it is time to create a regional website for regional security issues. The whole broad realm of security, not just defence issues. Food security,IT security, personal security, national security, etc etc.
I bet it would be home to many of our experts here.
What do you think, guys?I reckon there is enough stuff to keep it going for a long time, & there isnt any other such forum, that is, there is an opportunity for it.
We’ll keep plugging at this until we get some respect. The blood and sweat of years, and all you get to see and read is half-backed conjecture couched in some pseudo-intellectual B.S!! Wish i could put some of these guys through the basic obstacle pursuit course – with me and my guys hunting them, harrassing them all night!!
Just come back home from a long CI tour of the Ituri /North Kivu Sector, guys, on some R & R couple of weeks. Man, that place is hot, and the world does not know just how! Wanna hear about it, fellas?\
welcome back so how was DRC.
I am impressed by the level to which these discussions have grown. Its become clear to those who visit this pages on a regular basis that there is a depth of expertise never before seen from our defence experts. The problem is that this depth of knowledge and experience is hardly known outside of the barracks.
I have never believed those who say that our soldiers are idling in the barracks. I do know that this is not the case. I think the main failing of our defence forces is not adapting to the information society that the world has become. People are hungry for information but if the information is not there, that is why you end up with rumours, half-baked conjecture and pseudo-intellectual BS.
The US military has a communication strategy (which I have seen) that states that it is the duty of the armed forces to be open with information in order to justify their existence to the tax payer. Of course, this has to be without compromising state security. If you go to the internet, you will get any information you want about US weapons systems and personnel. I guess their argument is that anybody serious enough to want the information will already have obtained it through intelligence sources. The US forces are so serious with information that they have “Communication Specialists” within their ranks and whose job is to filter information and photos to the media. If you don’t manage your information, then don’t blame the media for depending on disgruntled elements for information about the Forces.
Coming back to Kenya, why the secrecy with the Armed Forces? Secrecy only manages to hide information from the general public but I can bet that our neighbours already know what our arsenal is. Its really not that difficult especially if you know where to look and who to ask.
In Tanzania, the Defence Forces have a monthly newspaper. Why not Kenya? This could go a long way in telling the public what you guys are doing with taxpayer money. The idea about a defence website is a good one and long overdue. It could spur the kind of lively debate we see on this blog post.
why not take the oppotionity and form a military magazine. wewe sema yote 9 lakini moja itabaki ufanye. you need to redo the caption for this blog.
There used to be a military mag called Majeshi Yetu, i don’t know if it still circulates. maybe risasi and co can confirm. As for the navy they have one cald the sailor.
A continuation to my thoughts in the previous comment:
As a start, I would suggest some sort of inter-forces publication or website. This will include news and information from all the branches of the armed forces: Army, Airforce, Navy, Kenya Police, Administration Police, Prisons, NYS and KWS. This is because, initially, there may not be enough information to have a publication for each service but as the concept grows and the information needs grow, then each service could spin off its own publication.
Target audiences should be:
– Members of the armed forces (soldiers and police need to know what’s happening in the other services other than their own). The combined numbers are more than enough to justify a publication. Just think of how many publications teachers already have!
– The general public
– The media (local and international).
nairobi chronicle,
i got a bit scared when you guys decided to go too “technical” in terms of military jargon. like i said am not military but computers ( their technology and security) esp. networks !
the idea of the publication would be good but let everyone irrespective of their background consume it. am sure, maybe, their only fear would be spies from other countries but please siku hizi all this is available on line or via magazines like janes defence weekly etc
when you do open up ppl get to know more about you and appreciate our role in the society esp where tax payers money is concerned. with TEAMS, ESSAY and SEACOM cable rolling out we are just about to witness one of the most amazing events in out country YET very few are aware of the implications of this cable in terms of security in ALL our sectors not just security in terms of ARMED FORCES. i hope our MIA, the NSIS, the POLICE and CCK are ready for these cables i.e their “capabilities” and “implications” to the nations security…….WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE A SERIOUS SURGE IN CYBER RELATED CRIMES like we have never witnessed before. we do not just need tanks, jet fighter or naval ships, its time to go specially trained cyber security experts in all our defense systems as well……….REMEMBER TO PAY THEM WELL !!!!!
don’t worry microprocessor we had to go technical otherwise the blog would have render the Armed Forces as a good for nothing “SECURITY PARASTAL”. i have sent pictures on East africa airforces to be published by the Nairobi chronicle. hope this will lighten the blog.
was reading about the new fiber optic cable, it will be a plus to this region.
HAI RISASI GOOD JOB.HOW CAN I VIEW THE PICTURES YOU MENTIONED ABOVE?
Risasi,
l second you on the idea of coming up with a Magazine.
i sent the pictures to Nairobi chronicle via email he will publish them on his web. the pictures include relic picture of Somalia aircorps,UAV aquired by sudan airforce to the newly formed congo/zaire airforce with Mirage F-1, Su25 ,Mig23, Mi35 ,C-130 ,Puma and the Mi26 helo (the bigest chopper in the world) .in paper the Congo airforce looks tougher then the jeshi la wanainchi airforce. the region has known the value of a fuctioning airforce.
A military magazine to tell our story to the civilian types is a powerful weapon both good and bad for the same civilian types. In the most classic example of this, consecutive American administrations have used the media and all this freedom to know what your tax money is doing, in concerning the Armed Foces, to permanently enslave their people to adventures that all other societies and government in the World have condemned. How do you expect the Iraqi occupation to have ran this long without the disinformation and propaganda efforts of the Armed Forces through all manner of publications? What about the slaughter taking place in Afaghanistan of innocent civilians and not so innocent combatants, and there is not serious moral debate taking place in the American Society? I am all for a magazine, and will contribute my two bits worth, but a student of military matters, I must warn that this is a double-edged sword that all despots cannot resist. Information is power, and a factor in all modern day combat situations.t
F-5 Tiger-II are junk fighters. See where F-5 is in the table:
—-
This table compares the T/W ratios using a constant fuel weight of 3505kgs(7729lbs).
T/W ratio = Max Thrust of Engine(s) / (Empty Weight + (3.505 tonnes of fuel, or fuel & weapons))
1.48 – F-15K
1.37 – F-22
1.32 – Su-35BM
1.29 – F-15C
1.26 – Su-27S
1.25 – Eurofighter
1.23 – Su-27SK & J-11A
1.22 – Su-30MKI
1.19 – Rafale C
1.18 – Mig-29M/M2
1.16 – Su-30MKK
1.15 – Mig-29A
1.148 – F/A-18E/F
1.10 – F-16 Block 52
1.09 – F-16 Block 60
1.09 – F-16 Block 50
1.08 – F-35A
1.08 – F-14D
1.06 – Mig-29k
1.03 – F-2A
1.01 – J-10
1.008 – J-8II
1.00 – F-35B
0.99 – MiG-23MLD Flogger-K
0.94 – F-35C
0.94 – Gripen NG
0.94 – F-4E
0.881 – Mirage 2000 C & H
0.88 – LCA
0.86 – F-CK-1
0.84 – JF-17
0.84 – Mig-19S**
0.83 – Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
0.81 – Mig-27K
0.81 – F-20
0.80 – Mig-21 Bis
0.76 – J-7E & F-7BG
0.70 – F-7PG
0.68 – F-7MB
0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II
0.57 – Mirage-IIIE & 5
Pure Interceptors
1.22 – Mig-31E
0.87 – MiG-25P Foxbat-A
Empty Weight – Thrust – Fighter
31,700 – 29,160 X 2 – F-15K
43,340 – 35,000 X 2 – F-22
40,565 – 31,967 X 2 – Su-35BM
28,600 – 23,450 X 2 – F-15C
35,935 – 27,600 X 2 – Su-27S
24,250 – 20,000 X 2 – Eurofighter
37,192 – 27,600 X 2 – Su-27SK & J-11A
40,565 – 29,400 X 2 – Su-30MKI
20,948 – 17,000 X 2 – Rafale C
25,573 – 19,580 X 2 – Mig-29M/M2
39,903 – 27,600 X 2 – Su-30MKK
24,030 – 18,300 X 2 – Mig-29A
30,600 – 22,000 X 2 – F/A-18E/F
18,780 – 29,160 X 1 – F-16 Block 52
22,000 – 32,500 X 1 – F-16 Block 60
19,200 – 29,400 X 1 – F-16 Block 50
29,300 – 39,900 X 1 – F-35A
43,735 – 27,800 X 2 – F-14D
29,211 – 19,580 X 2 – Mig-29K
21,000 – 29,500 X 1 – F-2A
19,544 – 27,557 X 1 – J-10
21,653 – 14,815 X 2 – J-8II
32,000 – 39,900 X 1 – F-35B
21,153 – 28,700 X 1 – MiG-23MLD Flogger-K
34,800 – 39,900 X 1 – F-35C
15,653 – 22,000 X 1 – Gripen NG
30,328 – 17,845 X 1 – F-4E
16,538 – 21,380 X 1 – Mirage 2000 C & H
14,100 – 19,100 X 1 – LCA
14,300 – 09,500 X 2 – F-CK-1
14,134 – 18,300 X 1 – JF-17
11,983 – 08,300 X 2 – Mig-19S**
32,000 – 16,410 X 2 – Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
26,252 – 27,600 X 1 – Mig-27K
13,150 – 17,000 X 1 – F-20
11,770 – 15,650 X 1 – Mig-21 Bis
11,667 – 14,650 X 1 – J-7E & F-7BG
11,629 – 13,448 X 1 – F-7PG
11,629 – 13,219 X 1 – F-7MB
09,558 – 05,000 X 2 – F-5E Tiger-II
15,600 – 13,240 X 1 – Mirage-IIIE & 5
Pure Interceptors
48,100 – 34,172 X 2 – Mig-31E
44,080 – 22,494 X 2 – MiG-25P Foxbat-A
Weight in lb, and Thrust in lbf.
3505 kg = 7729 lb
** Empty weight + 7729 lb exceeds max takeoff weight.
Su-35BM, Su-30MKK, J-10’s weight is an estimate.
Impressing data but being a lay man you are failing to interpret it. I will only tell you being Bottom in that list isn’t necessary an indication of an inefficient craft. Keep on with your research.
or what do you understand from the data
Simple.. if there is a dogfight, F-5 can’t climb, and can’t outmaneuver a Su-27 or Mig-29. Once it losses airspeed, it can’t recover it quickly as a su-27 or a mig-29. It can be a match for F-7’s, but F-7’s can accelerate faster and move out of harms way from a f-5.
In short, F-5 is a 2nd generation fighter which was made to counter Mig-21s. it is no match for 4th Generation Fulcrums and flankers which is possession of other African nations.
Most probably there was some bribes and kickbacks involved in this deal.
Also F-5’s are powered by highly inefficient Turbojet engines which is so ancient it’s not even in production. All 4 gen fighers are powered by Turbo fan engines.
The F-5 engines were so crappy and inefficient, that the american’s offered F-20, which is F-5 with a single, more advanced and efficient engine. See where F-20 is in that list. I can’t believe there are people defending this junk and comparing it to 4 gen fighters. It’s blasphemy.
And I’m not a layman.
And being a second Gen fighter, it probably has piss poor G-limits of 5 to 6. And because of it’s low G limits, it can’t make tighter turns. Well, having that kind of T/W ratio, you better not turn hard since once you lose Airspeed, you are as good as dead if your opponent has higher TWR.
I can go on and on.
It’s good to know your not a layman and I apologies if it offended you. if there is something educative I can learn from you then why not. I would go to sleep having learnt something new. So from your perspective and experience I would appreciate to know or if you could explain to me in simple terminology the following details.
Again from your perspective and experience.
Fuji,
The F-5 is not a second generation fighter, it is third generation. Early versions of the the MiG 21s are second generation though. Your analysis is good but you miss the point. Most of what you have given is theoretical and might not mean much. You will need to look at the practical performances of the various aircraft as well. For instance, during the gulf war the Tornado gave a good account of itself yet from your analysis, it is way below the MiG 29. The F-5 was there as well being used by the Saudis and it did not dissapoint while in the company of the more potent F-18s,F-15s, F-117s, Tornado etc.
Yes the Mig 29 and the Su 27s are more mordern and are fourth generation fighters, but that does not mean they are way a head of an upgraded F-5 fighter. Besides, you will recall that Algeria returned some her MiG 29s to Russia due to dissapointment in them.
To Mr Fuji
1. What are these pure interceptor that you have in the list?
2. what happens when a fighter higher in the list meets a lower ranking fighter. Lets say like in the third world regions where AWACS and like system are not in operational. A one on one combat episode, a basic dog fights something similar to that. What’s your suggestion?
3. Its true that the jet engines have evolved to better ones.
So what’s the fate of the f-5 in these modern times. With it’s out dated engines.
Nah.. I was not offended personally, but I was annoyed when people were making comparisons between 2nd generation and 4 gen fighters.
“So from your perspective and experience I would appreciate to know or if you could explain to me in simple terminology the following details.”
Sure. Basically T/W ratio indicates the amount of power propelling the Aircraft forward. You can say it’s Acceleration. A TWR difference of 0.1 is a LOT of difference. It means you can recover Airspeed losses quickly in a dogfight. So it means you can make tighter turns and climb faster than your opponent. The more tighter your turn, the more airspeed loss you’ll encounter. When you climb, you store potential energy and that is very useful in a Dogfight.
G limit, is the forces acting on you when you turn your Fighter. 1 G is the gravitational pull of the earth which we feel. Mig-29 can pull 9G’s. It can go even further, but a human body can only withstand upto 9 G’s. The more tighter you turn, the more G’s you get. 2nd Gen fighters can only withstand around 6 G’s. So you can’t make tighter turns. Thus your turn radius will be huge and an aircraft with a lesser turn radius(high G tolerance) will move to your behind and finish you off.
Lets say if a F-5 dogfights with an F-7. Lets assume G tolerance is 7 for F-5, and F-7’s G limit is 6, and both have similar drag profiles. Since F-5 can pull more G’s, it can make tighter turns than a F-7 and can get behind it. But the problem is its TWR is just 0.58 while that of early model F-7 is 0.68. So the moment you turn with 7 Gs, you’ll lose Airspeed quickly because of low TWR. The moment you lose speed, you’ll only turn slower and experience only 3-4 G’s. Eventhough your fighter can soak up to 7G’s, you won’t be able to utilise it completely. The F-7 on the other hand has more T/W ratio and thus has more speed. So it can utilize 5-6 G’s and turn tighter than you and get to your behind. F-5 is dead!
If F-5 fights a Mig-29, it is so dead. The 29 outclasses it in both TWR and Gs. Even if Mig has more drag than a F-5, it’s huge TWR advantage eclipses it completely. So the Mig will simple execute a 9g turn, and get to F-5’s behind. F-5 can’t accelerate, can’t out turn, and it can’t even run away since it’s top speed is less than the Mig. This is not even a contest.
There you go that is the basics of Dogfighting.
There are also other factors like AoA, Corner velocity, Sustained turn rate. There is no reliable publicly available info regarding Corner velocity and sustained turned rates . But the Angel of Attack figures of Mig-29 is huge. Around 30 degrees.
In the eyes of Beyond visual range missiles, all the above probably won’t be of any use. But the age of dogfighting is here to say. Also given that fact that African nations only have limited BVR capability, Dogfights are very much here to stay.
“The F-5 is not a second generation fighter, it is third generation. Early versions of the the MiG 21s are second generation though. Your analysis is good but you miss the point. Most of what you have given is theoretical and might not mean much. You will need to look at the practical performances of the various aircraft as well. For instance, during the gulf war the Tornado gave a good account of itself yet from your analysis, it is way below the MiG 29. The F-5 was there as well being used by the Saudis and it did not dissapoint while in the company of the more potent F-18s,F-15s, F-117s, Tornado etc.”
Strictly speaking, Mig-21 and F-5 Tiger-II is second generation. Some people claim Mig-21late model bis and F-5TigerII as third generation, but that is not right. Mig-23 & mig-27 are the true 3rd gen fighters.
This is from wiki:
“The improved second-generation F-5E Tiger II was also primarily used by American Cold War allies and, in limited quantities, served in US military aviation as a training and aggressor aircraft”
The Allies won the gulf war because of excellent AWACS, JSTARS, BVR missiles and other support aircraft. I don’t think there is Awacs, Jstars and Amraam missles in Kenya’s arsenal. If the Iraqis had all that then they might have put up a good fight. They could not have won because they don’t have many fighters as the allies/coalition.
In a dogfight scenario which is bound to happen in the African context, those F-5 are sitting ducks. Tornados are very very poor dogfighters. They are primarily bombers.
“Besides, you will recall that Algeria returned some her MiG 29s to Russia due to dissapointment in them.”
No. The russians gave them old refurbished Mig-29s and passed them off as new ones. The algerias got pissed off and cancelled the deal.
“To Mr Fuji
1. What are these pure interceptor that you have in the list?
2. what happens when a fighter higher in the list meets a lower ranking fighter. Lets say like in the third world regions where AWACS and like system are not in operational. A one on one combat episode, a basic dog fights something similar to that. What’s your suggestion?
3. Its true that the jet engines have evolved to better ones.
So what’s the fate of the f-5 in these modern times. With it’s out dated engines.”
You can read my previous reply i’ve given an exhausting account of Dogfights. And this reply I’ve talked about absense of AWACS and fights in the context of kenya’s neighborhood.
Interceptors, well they are just interceptors. They can’t dogfight. They come, launch their missiles from long ranges, and speed away. I’ll give you a detailed reply shortly. I’m AFK for a while.
In view of the recent acquisitions of fourth generation fighters by the neighbours, Kenya must not lag behind. Military planners must take stock of the potential dangers from the north i.e the MiG 29s in Sudan ( and possibly Tanzania ) and the Su 27s in Ethiopia. The purchase of 15 used F-5s from Jordan should act as a stop gap measure as the country seeks more suitable replacements. Possible candidates could be the Jas 39 Gripen, the J-10 or the JF 17 Thunder. These are relatively cheaper than most western versions of similar capability and are thus affordable for a developing country like Kenya.
If you guys are much interested in Fighter jets and military hardware, I could point you to some nice defence forums for beginners. There you can gain knowledge as well as clarify your doubts. Let me know if you are interested.
Anyway…
“To Mr Fuji
1. What are these pure interceptor that you have in the list?”
These interceptors fighters can’t dogfight. Their job is to intercept enemy fighters and cruise missiles. They have very powerful radars! They can see enemy fighters from 200-300 kms away and launch long range Air to Air missiles. After they have launched their missiles, they’ll come back. These fighters have tremendous speeds. Mig-25 and Mig-31 can reach speeds upto Mach 2.8 and altitudes of 27km. At such speeds, the missiles you launch at them won’t even reach them. The missiles would run out of fuel trying to catch them.
“2. what happens when a fighter higher in the list meets a lower ranking fighter. Lets say like in the third world regions where AWACS and like system are not in operational. A one on one combat episode, a basic dog fights something similar to that. What’s your suggestion?”
Please, read my previous reply. i’ve given a detailed account of what happens during a dogfight.
“3. Its true that the jet engines have evolved to better ones.
So what’s the fate of the f-5 in these modern times. With it’s out dated engines.””
Well, it can still dogfight against Mig-21’s and Mig-19’s & F-7s. If the Kenyan pilot is clever to use his fighter to the best, he can win. I just checked some sites, it seem you guys have only 22 F-5’s. That is the only Fighters you have!! That’s shocking. I guess the neighborhood around Kenya must be a peaceful place to have such reduced force levels.
http://www.milaviapress.com/orbat/kenya/index.php
If the area is indeed peaceful, I guess F-5 should do just fine. Here in Asia all hell could break loose.. unsolved border disputes to ethnic tensions, it’s all here. China-Taiwan issue, North Korea-South Korea, and India- pakistan zones are hot beds. Since Kenya doesn’t have any border disputes or ethnic tensions, it means no need for very expensive fighters.
ANYWAY
Article #1 pure fighter.
The MiG-25 was created to intercept the u-2 spy plane. it is also used in aerial combat.
a. Egypt used it with impunity over the first phase of the arab isreal war.
b. Syria still use it to fighter off isreal F-16.
c. During the first gulf war the first combat engagement was between a MiG25 IqaF and a F-18 USN. The F-18 lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25
revise
Spend more time in the net before posting your suggestions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25#Operational_history
Ofcourse what you posted is right. Mig-25 is a interceptor. Interceptors are basically fighters.
The Mig-25’s cannot dogfight. They are not meant to dogfight.
“Spend more time in the net before posting your suggestions”
What?
But despite this they did win some victories- http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47
Also like I said, my list doesn’t affect BVR engagements. See how many were killed by Aim-54 and Aim-7. those are BVR missiles.
I don’t see any F-5 scoring individual hits on Mig-25. Only one is given and it is given as ‘Shared’. F-14 fired the first shot, and F-5 shot second at the already crippled Mig-25. The cannon is obviously a lie. No Mig-25 pilot is dumb enough to get killed by cannon, and that too from a F-5. And that’s why it is given in WHITE. Entries in white are unconfirmed kills.
The Mig-25 has to fire its missiles after locking from its radar. if the enemy planes fly close to the ground then the radar cannot detect or lock because of ground clutter(radar reflected from the ground). In that scenario, you can bring down a Mig-25 IF IT IS COMING TOWARDS YOU. If you fire missiles, and if the Mig-25 pilot knows there are missiles heading your way and speeds up in the Opposite Direction, then your missiles won’t reach him. it’ll run out of fuel. When a Mig-25 is coming towards a missile, obviously the missile will hit it, provided the Mig-25 is not flying at high altitudes and the missiles are not launched from low altitudes.
Article #2
Based on the list you provided and what you stand for we can arrive at the following hypothesis
“In a normal dogfight chase the only contended to an F-22 will be the F-15K,
the F-4 can not challenge a MiG23 or aircrafts above it, the F-5 shouldn’t be able to challenge most fighter in the list , MiG19 can out maneuvered the F-35 and the Mirage III shouldn’t cause harm to most fighter.”
I think we level on that before I proceeded.
Article #2
Based on the list you provided and what you stand for we can arrive at the following hypothesis
“In a normal dogfight chase the only contended to an F-22 will be the F-15k,
the F-4 can not challenge a MiG23 or aircrafts above it, the F-5 shouldn’t be able to challenge most fighter in the list , MiG19 can out maneuvered the F-35 and the Mirage III shouldn’t cause harm to most fighter.”
I think we level on that before I proceeded.
Now lets take the First Persian war. a war between iran vs iraq. Both oil rich with strong economies to eliminate any unnecessary. No AWACS or air support systems of the sort. The IraF composed of mainly American fighter under an arms embargo due to the ousting of the Shan regime. Lets see how they faired
the F-4 from IriaF shoot down almost all Mig23 it encountered, while the MiG23 ranks above F-4 in you list .
the IriaF F-5 brought down several IqaF MiG-25 “Pure Interceptors” and MiG-21 among other. you earlier stated the MiG-25 should be able to climb and run away from missile and other aircrafts. in one incident a Major Yadollah Javadpour piloting a F-5 brought down a MiG-25 using his canons. What am trying to imply this was a basic air to air combat maneuver. your list should have come into effect .evasive maneuvers, tight turn climbs, dive and maneuvers of similar fashions.
In short what ever the losses were the result don’t reflect your list and suggestion.
what your whats your take on this.
http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=47
Not necessarily. My scenario has one basic assumption, that is the pilots are trained equally well on both sides. if you place a very poor pilot in a F-22 and ask him to dogfight a superb pilot in a Mig-29, obviously the pilot in the Mig will win.
Also the Mig-23 is an Mig-23 MLD. The TWR of mig-23MF is less than that of F-4e. It’s 0.91.
And more the TWR difference, the more disadvantage you are in. But remember, the above TWR is made taken into account similar weights on fighters… that is 3505 kgs load. If a F-5 only carries 1700 fuel and weapons compared to a Mig-23 or F-7 with carries 3505 kgs or 5000 kgs, then your TWR will be higher, and theirs lower. The above TWR list is an unbiased list meant to compare the fighters.
Regarding persian war, like Is said before regarding pilot training-
“In addition to a superior air fleet, Iranian pilots were better trained. The Iranian air force adhered to NATO flight training time requirements for combat pilots, whereas at the outbreak of war Iraqi pilots had “limited hours of flying time”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Air_Force_in_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war
But despite this they did..
(sorry I posted this in article 1. Reposting.)
But despite this they did win some victories- http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47
Also like I said, my list doesn’t affect BVR engagements. See how many were killed by Aim-54 and Aim-7. those are BVR missiles.
I don’t see any F-5 scoring individual hits on Mig-25. Only one is given and it is given as ‘Shared’. F-14 fired the first shot, and F-5 shot second at the already crippled Mig-25. The cannon is obviously a lie. No Mig-25 pilot is dumb enough to get killed by cannon, and that too from a F-5. And that’s why it is given in WHITE. Entries in white are unconfirmed kills.
The Mig-25 has to fire its missiles after locking from its radar. if the enemy planes fly close to the ground then the radar cannot detect or lock because of ground clutter(radar reflected from the ground). In that scenario, you can bring down a Mig-25 IF IT IS COMING TOWARDS YOU. If you fire missiles, and if the Mig-25 pilot knows there are missiles heading your way and speeds up in the Opposite Direction, then your missiles won’t reach him. it’ll run out of fuel. When a Mig-25 is coming towards a missile, obviously the missile will hit it, provided the Mig-25 is not flying at high altitudes and the missiles are not launched from low altitudes.
i think you have made it waste no you self now. we are not disputing the out comes of the iran-iraq war. but list that you claim will be the key factor for dogfight as you put it. the MiG21 Iran air force brought down F-4e IqaF. the MiG21 is much lower in you list compared to the F-4E not so? so again you list is not the yard stick of dogfight performance.
Article #3
The numbers of fighters we have are based on own potential threats and budgets constraints.
Back to our topic of discussion.
You claim that an F-5 is good for nothing with out dated engines that can propel it in a dogfight. The F-5 rolled out as a F-5A/B Tiger. It proved it’s self and was revised by the manufacturer to a Tiger II F-5E/F. at the current moment it being upgraded by individual air force based on there needs to a Tiger III .The upgrading is being done by well to do country let alone third world nation.
tell me why most nation are rapidly modernizing the F-5E.
F-5 can be upgraded to become a good BVR fighter, and with latest advances in missiles, even in dogfights you can win provided you have Aim-9 missiles. But if the opponent has similar capability, but if he has better engines and has more power, he has better chances of evading those missiles than the F-5 which is underpowered. ofcourse liek I said, it also depends on many many many factors. It that moment you TWR may be higher because you may only be carrying 2 missles and 1000 kgs of fuel while you opponent may be carrying a lot of load. You pilot may be better trained than the other. but in a similar comparison, or in other words, a pure Aircraft to aircraft comparison, F-5 is very underpowered with ancient engines.
Regarding Mig-25, Here you go, this is from wiki-
“In yet another incident, two MiG-25s approached a pair of F-15s, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then outran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the MiG-25s, though none reached them.[27] According to the same sources, at least one F-111 was also forced to abort its mission by a MiG-25 on the first 24 hours of hostilities, during an air raid over Tikrit.”
Evading 10 air to air missiles, that is what I was talking about. Remember those are advanced missiles.
Also, in order to evade a missile, you can just out run it, or turn 90 degrees from the missile flight path. if you take a missile head on, most probably the missile will get you no matter how fast you are.
Mr Fuji
Kindly answer the article #1, #2, #3 posted in a fresh post below, before proceeding into other interesting topics or we shall find ourselves running around in meaningless circles and posting unorderly data thanks for you time.
“In view of the recent acquisitions of fourth generation fighters by the neighbours, Kenya must not lag behind. Military planners must take stock of the potential dangers from the north i.e the MiG 29s in Sudan ( and possibly Tanzania ) and the Su 27s in Ethiopia. The purchase of 15 used F-5s from Jordan should act as a stop gap measure as the country seeks more suitable replacements. Possible candidates could be the Jas 39 Gripen, the J-10 or the JF 17 Thunder. These are relatively cheaper than most western versions of similar capability and are thus affordable for a developing country like Kenya.”
If Kenya doesn’t have any major disputes with its neighbours, then f-5 should do just fine. but if someone does attacks kenya, then F-5 won’t stand much of a chance. but what are the chances of that happening? When was the last war kenya fought?
If you are looking for very high end fourth generation fighters, then Buy Su-35BM. it is very costly(65 million).. but other fighters which is equal to it is more costlier. Rafale, Eurofighter, F-15K etc are equal to Su-35bm but more costlier than it. Su-35 Bm can dogfight, can launch BVR missiles, can act as a bomber, can act as an interceptor, it’s an all in plane.
But if Su-35bm is too costly then buying a cheap BVR fighter with somewhat reasonable dogfighting capabilities is the best way forward. JF-17 is a wonderful candidate. It costs anywhere between 15-20 million a piece and can launch BVR missiles. However if the BVR(beyond visual range) missiles fails and if it gets into a dogfight with a Mig-29 or a Su-27, then it’s dead. But it can dogfight and win if the opponent is a F-7, Mig-21 or a Mig-19. It would be an equal match for earlier versions of Mig-23. Ofcourse this is only for dogfights. If the BVR missile is a top class missile, then you won’t even get to Dogfight. BVR missile ranges are between 10km to 70km. If the distance between the fighters is less than 10 km then it’s the realm of dogfights.
Basically there are several types of fighters:
1: Dogfighters-
Eg:
Top dogfighters: Mig-29M, Su-27, F-15C & K, Rafale, Eurofighter, Su-30, Su-35BM, F-22, etc.. etc..
Medium dogfighters: F-16(all versions), F/A-18E/F, F-35, Mig-23, J-10, gripen NG, .. etc etc..
Ok dogfighters: Mig-19, Mig-21, F-5, F-7, F-6, JF-17, Mirage etc etc.
–
2: BVR fighters:
Top BVR fighters: F-22 raptor, F-35, Su-35BM, Su-30, Eurofighter, rafale, Gripen NG, F-15K, F-16block 60, F/A-18E/F, Mig-29(Aesa) etc etc..
Medium BVR fighters: Mig-29, Su-27, F-16C, F-15C, J-10 etc etc.
ok BVR fighters: Mig-21 Bison(latest indian version), JF-17, F-5(if it carries BVR missiles).
–
3: Bombers/Strike Aircraft:
Top fighter Bombers: F-35, F-16 block 60, Su-35BM, rafale, Su-30, F/A-18E/F etc etc..
F-22 and eurofighter can drop bombs as well, but they will be primarily used as a BVR & Dog fighter.
Medium fighter Bombers: F-16 Block 50,40,30 , Su-27 multirole versions, Mig-29 multirole versions, F-15E, Tornado etc etc..
Ok fighter bombers: Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27, Su-24, JF-17, F-5, F-7 etc etc.
–
4: Close air support Fighter:
Top: A-10, Su-39
Medium end: Su-25, Mig-27, Tornado
OK close air support aircraft: Mig-21, mig-19, A-5 fantan, F-7
–
5: Interceptors:
High end: Mig-31, Mig-25
Medium end: F-15, F-22, Su-27, Su-30, Su-35bm
Ok interceptors: Mig-21, Mig-23, Mirage, Mig-29, F-16, J-8, F-7 etc etc
–
6: High speed armed recon(not much use these days)
Mig-25, Mig-31
Mr Fuji
On your article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm you claimed in not so many words that your Thrust/weight ratio was the Gospel of dog fighting. You went further to elaborate the issue in detail with regards to the F-5 vs F-7
I have posted episode that don,t reflect your thoughts and index and now It seem you have better suggestions called “many many many other factors, including the pilots”
1, so I ask you would like to take back your words and reconsider the postings you made on this date?
2. you claimed not to be a lay man, and promised me sincerely and offer to post “ defense forums for beginner ” to enhance this blog.. it now seem that you are avoiding questions I earlier asked. Unless you wanted to dictate to me on the issue, I was meant to believe it was going to be a 2way traffic conversation. Again I could be wrong.
I asked simple questions in article #1 #2 #3 which you haven,t replay.
So again I will ask you whats your take on the articles with regards to your list?
P/s
The MiG-21 is regarded as an interceptor and yet it has be used in many Dogfights
“””On your article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm you claimed in not so many words that your Thrust/weight ratio was the Gospel of dog fighting. You went further to elaborate the issue in detail with regards to the F-5 vs F-7″””
Never did I say that the F-7 vs F-5 scenario was the gospel. Quote me where I said gospel. Infact I even said BVR combat is different from Dogfights.
“””I have posted episode that don,t reflect your thoughts and index and now It seem you have better suggestions called “many many many other factors, including the pilots
2. you claimed not to be a lay man, and promised me sincerely and offer to post “ defense forums for beginner ” to enhance this blog.. it now seem that you are avoiding questions I earlier asked. Unless you wanted to dictate to me on the issue, I was meant to believe it was going to be a 2way traffic conversation. Again I could be wrong.
I asked simple questions in article #1 #2 #3 which you haven,t replay.
So again I will ask you whats your take on the articles with regards to your list?
P/s””
I have already replied to your post concerning the cannons. But that post it says
“Fuji, on September 27th, 2009 at 10:05 pm Said: Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
The comment is awaiting moderation. I have split my post into 2 and posted it again.
The many many factors in Dogfights other than T/W ratio include Pilot training, pilot psychology, Morale, advanced dogfighting missiles, fuel & weapons load, altitude of engagement.
I have replied to all you queries/articles.
“””1, so I ask you would like to take back your words and reconsider the postings you made on this date?”””
Why? F-5 is a junk plane. Just because F-5’s pilot is superior and he has better missiles & radar doesn’t mean his plane is good. In an UNBIASED flight performance parameters comparison, F-5 is terrible.
You can win a war if you have good disciplined high morale pilot and advanced missiles inside a junk plane.
“””The MiG-21 is regarded as an interceptor and yet it has be used in many Dogfights”””
Yes, it can dogfight as well as intercept. For intercept you need top speed and Mig-21 gives you that. It’s top speed is Mach 2.2. F-5’s top speed is just mach 1.6.
“””The MiG-21 is regarded as an interceptor and yet it has be used in many Dogfights”””
Yes, it can dogfight as well as intercept. For intercept one of the basic things you need is top speed and Mig-21 gives you that. It’s top speed is Mach 2.2. F-5’s top speed is just mach 1.6.
The article on the MiG21 as an Inteceptor I was just implying that interceptor do Dogfight.
I will give you the benefit of doubt with regards to the iran-iraq war . some BVR missile where used. But if you narrow down the search to the use of the AIM-9 missile (a dog fighting missile) you will find that your list doesn’t tally too.
The Iranian pilots were trained to N.A.T.O standards and this was one of the attributes that contributed to that result. The same attribute is seen in the below data between PaK vs IaF. Similar economy and military readiness. But the Pakistanis had more hours with there F-6 (Chinese MiG-19) and manage to bring down several india fighter which had good T/W ratio. No BVR missile used. pure dogfight.
The Mirage III which is suppose to be a lame in you artical proved it self
http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47
between 23Oct73 to 10may86
I think by now you have realized that the T/W ratio is just an indictor but not the whole truth as you claimed in you article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
can form a new hypotheses?
“The thrust to weight ratio is not the Bible of Dog fighting but a figure of merit. It’s good in marketing the performance of aircrafts. In dog fighting the phase “it depends on” contributes a lot to the out come of the fight”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio
Any correction you would like to make?
So what you take on F-5 upgrading ? you claim it not to be a good dogfighter based upon you list.
If you can transform any junk into a modern fighter why are countries mainly doing it to the F-5? There many good relics laying about like f-14, mirage f1 etc. Air forces are going to the extent of buying used F-5 from other air forces and upgrading them. I feel it’s because it has stood to the test of time, proved itself worth and has a place in today’s battles.
“””i think you have made it waste no you self now. we are not disputing the out comes of the iran-iraq war. but list that you claim will be the key factor for dogfight as you put it. the MiG21 Iran air force brought down F-4e IqaF. the MiG21 is much lower in you list compared to the F-4E not so? so again you list is not the yard stick of dogfight performance.”””
Like I said, it also depends on pilot factor. Maybe that particular Iraqi pilot was better. Also, Mig-21’s engine can give you emergency thrust for 3 minutes!!! In that emergency thrust of 21829 lbf, it can generate TWR of 1.12 under a load of 7729 lb. If the dogfight took place under 3 mins it would have the advantage. If the fight drags longer the Mig-21 losses that advantage.
“””The article on the MiG21 as an Inteceptor I was just implying that interceptor do Dogfight.”””
Yes, interceptors do dogfight, that’s why Mig-21 is clubbed together with the rest of the fighters… while Mig-25 & Mig-31 are given separately. they can’t dogfight.
“””I will give you the benefit of doubt with regards to the iran-iraq war . some BVR missile where used. But if you narrow down the search to the use of the AIM-9 missile (a dog fighting missile) you will find that your list doesn’t tally too.”””
Aim-9 missile is better than russian missiles. But despite that fact, count how many Mig-21’s killed F-5e and how many F-5 killed Mig-21. The tally of Mig-21 killing F-5 is much more.
“””The Iranian pilots were trained to N.A.T.O standards and this was one of the attributes that contributed to that result. The same attribute is seen in the below data between PaK vs IaF. Similar economy and military readiness. But the Pakistanis had more hours with there F-6 (Chinese MiG-19) and manage to bring down several india fighter which had good T/W ratio. No BVR missile used. pure dogfight.
The Mirage III which is suppose to be a lame in you artical proved it self”””
Where is it good? The planes there Hunter, Su-7 etc were primarily used by the IAF as bomber/ground support aircraft. So i doubt the pilots had enough dogfighting training, and most of them were brought down during attack runs. But check out how many F-86 brought down gnats and how many gnats brought down & damaged(purple) F-86. Gnats have a higher T/W ratio than F-86, and were used primarily as dogfighters by the IAF, and F-86 as dogfighters by the PAF. Infact if you notice, most of the kills were done by Aim-9 missiles on gnats by the pakistanis, but all, I mean, ALL the kills made by gnats were done by cannon. That is because Gnats can’t even fire missiles, it has only guns as it’s weapon. But it has more kills and damages.
“””I think by now you have realized that the T/W ratio is just an indictor but not the whole truth as you claimed in you article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
can form a new hypotheses?”””
Read my previous paragraph.
And you’re still ignoring my point. In an environment where pilot training and weapons are equal, TWR plays a big role. In an environment where pilot training and TWR are equal, weapons play a key role. In an environment where twr and weapons are equal, pilot training plays a big role. TWR is an important element of Air combat, or.. let put it this way… do you think the U.S and the Russians are fools to design better and better powerful engines with each passing day?
Why do you think the latest fighters are ALL in the top 10 in the TWR chart? Because the Americans, Russians and Europeans are idiots?
“””So what you take on F-5 upgrading ? you claim it not to be a good dogfighter based upon you list.
If you can transform any junk into a modern fighter why are countries mainly doing it to the F-5? There many good relics laying about like f-14, mirage f1 etc. Air forces are going to the extent of buying used F-5 from other air forces and upgrading them. I feel it’s because it has stood to the test of time, proved itself worth and has a place in today’s battles.”””
For poor countries, F-5 is all they can afford. it’s cheaper to upgrade F-5 than buying new fighters.
For middle-economy countries, the 4th generation fighters are costly and can’t be procured in numbers. So they upgrade their old F-5 to maintain their force levels.
For rich countries, they are only used as trainers and light attack craft.
Or any country regardless of economic situation would have them because there isn’t any immediate threat from neighbors and spending money on costly military equipment is just not necessary.
And America has retired their F-14, so there is very less support. Also F-14 is costlier to maintain than a F-5 for training purposes.
And Mirage F-1 is still being used by the french.
Oh.. I just saw you mentioned TWR as a marketing thing. Just so you know, the Americans are not Marketing their F-22. They are not selling that stuff to even nato members, only their very very very close allies like Japan and few others.
Even F-15 was only offered for nato and its allies. People other than U.S allies can only get F-16 & F-18. F-15 is not for sale to them.
Latest fighter will be up in the T/W ratio. its not an idiotic gesture. These are new technology and better improved or upgraded engines performances. The F-22 has displayed many of its specifications and surely this are not meant for marketing purposes but for informative data bases.
you are stating the obvious.ofcourse the americans will not sell f22 since thats one of the latest fighters they possess.its like saying south africa is not in north africa.ofcouse we know that!
Mr fuji I am not disputing that the F-5 can not de brought down in a dogfight. The ball of contention is :
1. the list you posted being a yard stick in dog fights. Your rule of thumb was fighter in the lower scales should be able to bring harm to fighter in the high scale in dogfighter. This clearly not true. My suggestion was the fight can be won both ways in the scale. You believed that it can only be won as you ascend the TWR scale. That is why I posted the Iran-Iraq war and the Paki India war. I was not interested in the out comes of the two but how lower T/W ratio birds performed. Prevailing conditions play a lot on the out comes of simple dog fighting. Whats so ever the manufacturing date of the fighter is and its index in T/W scale. “It depends on” should be taken into consideration. Am I clear?
2. the position of the F-5 in todays airfoce and as you claimed on September 25th, 2009 at 8:37 pm the F-5 should be rule out in combat and is good in dogfight with old fighter of its kind.. this is again not true. The F-5 has brought down stronger more powerful and advance in technology then itself. Like the MiG-25
I believe you have now read the websites I posted on F-5 vs MiG25. and have found out its not a fairy tale story but I reality the Lame Mirage III in the Indo-Paki, scored its hit on 10may86. In the indo-Paki I specifically single out the following span of time 23Oct73 to 10may86. here the f-6, MiG21 and the Mirage III a low TWR performance on fighter higher in your list at this time and not against Hunter, Su-7.
In history they are always marvel of engineering that prove to be more the what the manufacture thought it would be . and the f-5 has been one.
The F-5 is one few fighter that when upgrade can give a punch as good as a 4th generation fighter. It will BVR and dogfight in comfort. The on limits comes to the hours of its frame (age) against how much investment you would like to put in into it. Simple economics.
Its not only poor nations that have acknowledged and upgraded it. let me take the two countries as examples for the sake of time and space.
America
F-5N is an upgrade of the F-5 used by the US military. They use the fighter as an AGGRESSOR SQUADRONS in dogfight simulation. Former members of the squadron include the F-14 and A-4 all now retired while the F-5 was upgraded and is still in use. Now I don,t think a super power would like to lie to its self and dog fight its pilots agaist an inadequate fighter. This Instructors will fly the F-5 and the students would come in F-16 e.t.c the F-5 is one of the fewer fighter the US can contemplate to buy used/secondhand from other countries and air forces to integrate into its airforce system.
Russia
Russia to has acknowledge the fighter. They have used it against many of there fighters and admitted indeed the F-5 is better then they expected. They used the feature and performance of the F-5 as blueprint for the production 4th Generation fighters.
In addition just look at the countries in Asia ( where Fuji comes from) that still have the F-5. Fuji told us that Asia is among the world’s trouble spots and that you will be toast if you do not posses a strong airforce. Why then do countries here still fly the suppossedly ‘junk F-5 ?’ some like Taiwan have a huge inventory of F-5s facing a more potent China, are they in a hopeless situation?
Asian countries that still fly the F-5 include, Taiwan, Turkey, Jordan,Singapore,Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and South Korea. Just also look at potential adversaries for these nations.
Mr Fuji is not telling us the whole truth.
None of these countries have F-5 as their main fighter, now why is that? To say specifically, Taiwan is in a bad situation, the U.S will only sell stuff to keep the balance of power. If you follow Taiwan-China drama, the U.S doesn’t even allow taiwan to have their BVR missile, which the taiwanese paid for, and keep them in the U.S. U.S will only sell when china tips the balance of power. The reasoning is the U.S wants to have status quo… if taiwan gets advanced weapons, they might declare independence, but when china gets more weapons they might invade. Infact the Taiwanese were screaming when china procured Su-27s and Su-30’s, and thats why the BVR missile was allowed to be sold. And besides, the US navy would be the one fighting the chinese as all the taiwanese airfiends will be bomb by around a 1000 ballistic and cruise missiles and their airforce grounded anyway. The chinese vigorously oppose military sales to that island, so only the U.S has guts to sell them stuff. The french who had earlier supplied them Mirages are now refusing to sell them more arms. Because of such restrictions, the taiwanese are arming themselves with their homegrown fighter plane F-CK.
The rest of the countries, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and South Korea are all also U.S allies. A war with them means a war with the U.S. If these guys were alone without the ever powerful USAF & USN backing, they would have scrapped their F-5’s long aso and would have gone for latest planes.
There is no chance of any immediate war between Singapore & Malaysia.
“””Latest fighter will be up in the T/W ratio. its not an idiotic gesture. These are new technology and better improved or upgraded engines performances. The F-22 has displayed many of its specifications and surely this are not meant for marketing purposes but for informative data bases.”””
Yes.
“””Mr fuji I am not disputing that the F-5 can not de brought down in a dogfight. The ball of contention is :
1. the list you posted being a yard stick in dog fights. Your rule of thumb was fighter in the lower scales should be able to bring harm to fighter in the high scale in dogfighter. This clearly not true. My suggestion was the fight can be won both ways in the scale. You believed that it can only be won as you ascend the TWR scale. That is why I posted the Iran-Iraq war and the Paki India war. I was not interested in the out comes of the two but how lower T/W ratio birds performed. Prevailing conditions play a lot on the out comes of simple dog fighting. Whats so ever the manufacturing date of the fighter is and its index in T/W scale. “It depends on” should be taken into consideration. Am I clear?”””
I never said dogfights depends on ONLY TWR and fighters above can NEVER be brought down. But TWR is a VERY important element of dogfight. And subsequently I highlighted how TWR is useful while dogfighting by posting a scenario using F-5 vs F-7, both piloted by equally skilled pilots.
A pilot is a human, and a missile is an addon. But TWR is an ATTRIBUTE of an Fighter Aircraft. That’s why I was saying F-5 is junk and endorsing the blog’s title ‘junk fighter jet’s’.
You saw how many F-5 were shot down by Mig-21, didn’t you? F-5s can shoot down Mig-21s, but Mig-21s can shoot down more F-5s. If “it depends on” is so much relevant then why are more kills by Mig2,1even though Mig21has inferior missiles and inferior pilots? That goes to show how much relevant TWR is. Would you risk your pilots lives knowing they are flying inferior low TWR aircrafts? I know I wouldn’t.
“””2. the position of the F-5 in todays airfoce and as you claimed on September 25th, 2009 at 8:37 pm the F-5 should be rule out in combat and is good in dogfight with old fighter of its kind.. this is again not true. The F-5 has brought down stronger more powerful and advance in technology then itself. Like the MiG-25″””
That is not true. The mig-25 was already heavily damaged by the long range BVR missile fired by the F-14. it was limping around when F-5 took opportunity and fired it’s Aim-9 at the crippled Mig-25. See the link which you yourself posted. It says “Shared” kill. And the other is obviously a lie. You cannot bring down a Mig-25 by cannon, that too from a f-5, which is why that entry is in White, which means not confirmed.
“””reality the Lame Mirage III in the Indo-Paki, scored its hit on 10may86. In the indo-Paki I specifically single out the following span of time 23Oct73 to 10may86. here the f-6, MiG21 and the Mirage III a low TWR performance on fighter higher in your list at this time and not against Hunter, Su-7.”””
The Mig-21s were used in a bomber role. During the Afghan invasion, the DRAAF and VVS(afghan & soviet AF) used to violated Pak airspace and bomb Mujahedeen camps inside Pakistan. Pakistan used to pick at those bombing missions by deploying their dogfighting squadrons.
But if you look at Mirage during indo-pak war. Mirage didn’t even bring down a single IAF Mig-21. But poor gnats were the victims. And Gnats, has a high TWR than F-86 but lower twr than Mirages. Mirages shot down more gnats, than viceversa.
“””In history they are always marvel of engineering that prove to be more the what the manufacture thought it would be . and the f-5 has been one.
The F-5 is one few fighter that when upgrade can give a punch as good as a 4th generation fighter. It will BVR and dogfight in comfort. The on limits comes to the hours of its frame (age) against how much investment you would like to put in into it. Simple economics.”””
A manufacturer will always say good things about his plane. But at the end it is still inferior to a Mig-21.
BTW, Can Kenyan F-5 fire BVR missiles? My guess is it cant.
“””F-5N is an upgrade of the F-5 used by the US military. They use the fighter as an AGGRESSOR SQUADRONS in dogfight simulation. Former members of the squadron include the F-14 and A-4 all now retired while the F-5 was upgraded and is still in use. Now I don,t think a super power would like to lie to its self and dog fight its pilots agaist an inadequate fighter. This Instructors will fly the F-5 and the students would come in F-16 e.t.c the F-5 is one of the fewer fighter the US can contemplate to buy used/secondhand from other countries and air forces to integrate into its airforce system.”””
That is why it is in an aggressor squadron. Aggressor squadron use older jets and new ones.
Here you go, this is from wikipedia:
“While aircraft used for the aggressor role are usually older jet fighters, this has not always been the case. During the mid-1980s, the US Navy determined that the A-4s and F-5s flown at Top Gun were not adequate in simulating the air-to-air capabilities of the newest Russian fighters such as the MiG-29 and Su27.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressor_squadron
The U.S themselves are saying F-5 is old & inferior. What more do you want?
“”””””Russia to has acknowledge the fighter. They have used it against many of there fighters and admitted indeed the F-5 is better then they expected. They used the feature and performance of the F-5 as blueprint for the production 4th Generation fighters.”””
Russians building fourth generation fighter by copying F-5? That is so not true.
nairobi chronicle i have a problem. i have posted two posting one 2 days back begining with…The F-5 did indeed shoot down …………………….and the other yesterday title the “Rate of climb” the article are waiting moderation. please realise them.
posting dates and time
September 29th, 2009 at 11:01 am
September 29th, 2009 at 10:43 am
September 29th, 2009 at 8:23 am Said:
I went thought the website you posted and it clear states the position of the aircraft used in those squadrons. I quote from the second paragraph “US aggressor squadrons fly light and extremely agile strike fighters……..” does this statment jog your mind with regards to the caliber of the aircraft used? poor performance fighter? What are you taking about? what you saying is just part of the story. The American quoted the F-5 as not adequate (not sufficient) and not inferior (poor quality) as you state in your posting. ok?. very different in meanings. This again this was in mid 80,s and the F-5 in question was F-5E to perform simulations of newly rolled out 4th generation fighters the F-16, Su-27 and MiG29.. Bear in mind what I had earlier said the Russia using the F-5E as a seed for there 4th generation fighters. Its obvious the Russia planes would come better. An upgrade version of the F-5E the F-20 which is simply an F-5G was offered which was as competitive as the new 4th generation in the market.
Most instructors favored the F-20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark
over the F-16 (all in the website of Aggressor squadron) but lost only due to its prices tag. an upgraded F-5 competing with a new 4th generation fighter the F-16. the upgrade gets a thumbs up but failed due to its price tag. Do you get it?
.
The new F-16 designated as F-16N couldn,t coupe with the stress of continuous Dogfight and were grounded by 1992. (3rd paragraph last lines of the aggressor squadron website) the same stress the F-5 were enduring.
By the time a possible attack from the Soviet had died the USSR had collapled, and the F-18 was adequate and existed in offer. The tactics of TOPGUN school changed to ground attack
The integrity of the TOPGUN school with regards to dogfighting started depreciating and in 2003 american revives its F-5 and upgraded them to F-5N. out of all the aircrafts the TOPGUN used F-14, Kfir, A-4 e.t.c it goes back to search and procure second hand F-5 from foreign airforces, upgrade them and intergrated into there systems. the first time in history for the Americans military. the F-5N is now being replace by the F-15. this is a super power and the quality in training of its fighter pilots matter a lot. The fighters and materials use for this duty and simulations are the most respected by it pilots. Does this action ring a bell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Fighter_Weapons_School#History.2C_raison_d.27.C3.AAtre
.
13th paragraph
the Iranian F-5 were victims of its regime and
Attrition hard cropped in due to Irans fall out with the Americans . this is therefore not a scenario we can use to judge the F-5 performance. I was merely suggested the incident to discredit your TWR list which it did. Now your changing the story to the performance of the F-5 on that war. for vanity sake here are fair performances of the F-5
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/ethiopia-1977-1978.html
“””I went thought the website you posted and it clear states the position of the aircraft used in those squadrons. I quote from the second paragraph “US aggressor squadrons fly light and extremely agile strike fighters……..” does this statment jog your mind with regards to the caliber of the aircraft used? poor performance fighter? What are you taking about? what you saying is just part of the story. The American quoted the F-5 as not adequate (not sufficient) and not inferior (poor quality) as you state in your posting. ok?. very different in meanings. This again this was in mid 80,s and the F-5 in question was F-5E to perform simulations of newly rolled out 4th generation fighters the F-16, Su-27 and MiG29.. Bear in mind what I had earlier said the Russia using the F-5E as a seed for there 4th generation fighters. Its obvious the Russia planes would come better. An upgrade version of the F-5E the F-20 which is simply an F-5G was offered which was as competitive as the new 4th generation in the market.”””
What are you saying? It says clearly “the US Navy determined that the A-4s and F-5s flown at Top Gun were not adequate in simulating the air-to-air capabilities of the newest Russian fighters such as the MiG-29 and Su27.”
It is “not adequate in simulating” Mig-29 & Su-27, which means it’s Air to Air/Dogfighting capabilities is so inferior that you can’t simulate their behavior.
Ofcourse it is agile(even Mig-15 was agile), but not agile enough for Mig-29 and su-27s which are more agile. Which is why f-5’s simulation of m29 & s27 is inadequate.
“””Most instructors favored the F-20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark
over the F-16 (all in the website of Aggressor squadron) but lost only due to its prices tag. an upgraded F-5 competing with a new 4th generation fighter the F-16. the upgrade gets a thumbs up but failed due to its price tag. Do you get it?
.
The new F-16 designated as F-16N couldn,t coupe with the stress of continuous Dogfight and were grounded by 1992. (3rd paragraph last lines of the aggressor squadron website) the same stress the F-5 were enduring.””””
Ofcourse, the F-5 engines were so shitty and outdated, they were asking for F-20 which has a better engine.
This is from your own link:
“The F-20 Tigershark (initially F-5G) was a privately financed light fighter, designed and built by Northrop. Its development began in 1975 as a further evolution of Northrop’s F-5E Tiger II, featuring a new engine that greatly improved overall performance,”
“Greatly improved overall performance”, got that?
“””By the time a possible attack from the Soviet had died the USSR had collapled, and the F-18 was adequate and existed in offer. The tactics of TOPGUN school changed to ground attack
The integrity of the TOPGUN school with regards to dogfighting started depreciating and in 2003 american revives its F-5 and upgraded them to F-5N. out of all the aircrafts the TOPGUN used F-14, Kfir, A-4 e.t.c it goes back to search and procure second hand F-5 from foreign airforces, upgrade them and intergrated into there systems. the first time in history for the Americans military. the F-5N is now being replace by the F-15. this is a super power and the quality in training of its fighter pilots matter a lot. The fighters and materials use for this duty and simulations are the most respected by it pilots. Does this action ring a bell?”””
Where does it say it has depreciated? It only says in addition to Air-Air, it now also has Air-Ground.
They were probably procured to simulate F-7’s still used by china. Also F-5s are cheap to main than other fighters.
“””the Iranian F-5 were victims of its regime and
Attrition hard cropped in due to Irans fall out with the Americans . this is therefore not a scenario we can use to judge the F-5 performance. I was merely suggested the incident to discredit your TWR list which it did. Now your changing the story to the performance of the F-5 on that war. for vanity sake here are fair performances of the F-5″””
lol… Where did it discredit? F-5 was shot down much much more by the Mig-21. And Similar to F-5, F-14s were also in a disadvantage because of the new Iranian regime. But see how many kills F-14s made on Mig-21s and other fighters including the Mig-25.
Infact in the ethiopian war, Ethiopians had superior support than the somalis, like AWACS type Radar on the ground. Thus they had the advantage, like F-5s had during the Gulf war. This is from your own link:
“The tactics used by Ethiopian Air Force was to dispatch F-5As for attack missions. The planes climb to 30,000 feet to be seen by Somali radar. SAC (Somali Air Corps) mainly operated either from Hargeisa (main operational base) and Baidoa for the Southern part. As soon as the F-5As are seen by Somali radar, SAC dispatches MIGs for interception. As soon as the MIGs take off, Ethiopia’s American supplied radar, which was superior to what the Somali’s had, at Karamara detects the MIGs and F-5E take off from Dire Dawa for interception. The F-5E flew with their radars on with low output led by ground controllers until they got closer at which time they fully lit their radar. All aircraft were hit by Sidewinders (AIM-9)”
The Early warning AWACS type radar at Karamara did the crucial work, like it did for the Coalition during the Gulf war. There was no dogfight, only ambush.
The only unbiased Air to Air dogfights took place during the Iran-Iraq war. Actually, it’s not unbiased because Iraq, despite having inferior missiles, inferior pilots, low numbers of fighters, shot down a hellva lot more F-5’s than viceversa.
Its clear now that your arguments were for argument sake.You are Ill-informed.
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/Iraq.htm
see 3 july 1986 in this log.
a new released acig article also mentions it
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_247.shtml
scroll down to the heading title
“Short History of MiG-25 in service with the Iraqi Air Force, since 1980”
and read its third paragraph.
MiG was flown by a Top IqaF Ace.
This why until today the Iranians have modified and are still using the F-5.
Fuji, on September 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm Said:
………………… And the other is obviously a lie. You cannot bring down a Mig-25 by cannon, that too from a f-5, which is why that entry is in White, which means not confirmed
see the postings above
Fuji, on September 30th, 2009 at 3:48 pm Said
The F-5E flew with their radars on with low output led by ground controllers until they got closer at which time they fully lit their radar. All aircraft were hit by Sidewinders (AIM-9)”
The Early warning AWACS type radar at Karamara did the crucial work, like it did for the Coalition during the Gulf war. There was no dogfight, only ambush
like AWACS type Radar on the ground. Thus they had the advantage, like F-5s had during the Gulf war. This is from your own link:
“The tactics used by Ethiopian Air Force was to dispatch F-5As for attack missions. The planes climb to 30,000 feet to be seen by Somali radar
1. both airforces had radars that could see their enemies . No advantages or disadvantages. One set was used more tactfully then the other.
2. Sidewinder are infrared missile it has to be fired at the fighters rear. This is a Dogfight. Therefore the MiG,s were killed in dogfights. No BVR.
3. there was no AWACS technology in between Ethiopia and Somalia. This where Air surveillance radars especial during this time. Vectoring a fighter by ground radar is not AWACS AWACS = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Warning_and_Control_System
4. the eliment of ambush wasn,t always present. Two F-5 attacked 4 Mig21.the first two might be ambushed but after the other two MiGs were aware of what was going on.
.
Ofcourse, the F-5 engines were so shitty and outdated, they were asking for F-20 which has a better engine.
This is from your own link:
“The F-20 Tigershark (initially F-5G) was a privately financed light fighter, designed and built by Northrop. Its development began in 1975 as a further evolution of Northrop’s F-5E Tiger II, featuring a new engine that greatly improved overall performance,”
“Greatly improved overall performance”, got that?
All upgrades come with improved features including engines atimes. Have you ever see an upgrade with feature below it? The TOPGUN instructors wanted a 4th generation fighter simulator. Do you even know features of a . 4th generation fighter Read through :innovative technologies introduced in fourth-generation fighters include “look-down/shoot-down” capability, head-up displays (HUD), “hands on throttle-and-stick” (HOTAS) controls, and multi-function displays (MFD), Infrared search-and-track (IRST) and atimes Composite materials in the form of bonded aluminum honeycomb structural elements and graphite epoxy laminate among others. Not crappy engines as you say. This are the upgrades that have been done to the new F-5
The aggressor squadrons
Selection of pilots to fight the aggressor squadron where the best from there unit and would again go back to give an account of what they learnt. The pilots do dogfighters with one of the best fighter pilots in their military flying the best aircrafts for dogfights.
Again when you look at the rate of climb of an aircraft a good indicator of the engine performance during dogfights
1. MiG29 lower TWR but climbs faster then a F-15.
2. F-16, F-15, F-18 all share the same Rate of climb but the TWR is F-15,F-16,F-18 in descending order.
3.Su27 vs Eurofighter2000 the Su27 has less TWR and but higher Rate of climb. The Eurofighter 2000 has the latest supercruise engines.
Fuji, on September 26th, 2009 at 2:42 pm Said
Strictly speaking, Mig-21 and F-5 Tiger-II is second generation. Some people claim Mig-21late model bis and F-5TigerII as third generation, but that is not right. Mig-23 & mig-27 are the true 3rd gen fighters
Fuji, on September 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm Said:
None of these countries have F-5 as their main fighter, now why is that? To say specifically,……….
singapore use it as an INTERCEPTOR ROLE. The squadrons have been winning Awards as late as last year. Squadron 144 and 149
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/149_Squadron,_Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force
Royal Thai
aggressor squadron and fighter squadron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_Air_Force#Squadrons
Brazil
The backbone of the Brazilian combat aviation
http://www.electronicaviation.com/articles/Military/664
http://www.milavia.net/airforces/brazil/fab.htm
6th paragrapha
All the three example countries among many are Emerging Economies that can afford latest aircrafts. most of them have neighbors equipped with fighter higher then the TWR of the F-5 .they have given the F-5 more life and use it in interceptor roles .True dogfighters.
Fuji, on September 28th, 2009 at 6:17 pm Said
For middle-economy countries, the 4th generation fighters are costly and can’t be procured in numbers. So they upgrade their old F-5 to maintain their force levels.
For rich countries, they are only used as trainers and light attack craft
Again not true. When compared to the above and below postings.
now if you look at the articles I have posted with regards to the soviet i.e the MiG23 vs the F-5 both in hands of good pilots, same environment “friendly” the MiG23 having higher TWR then the F-5, the F-5 wins. The overall design of the aircraft does the winning.
Dogfighter depends on the quality and the overall design of the fighter in question and the training of the pilots. against each other. this holds almost 80% of the result.
CONCLUSION
United Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/527th_Space_Aggressor_Squadron
United states
The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a growth of the F/A-18 Hornet, which was derived from the YF-17 Cobra, which was a redesign of the F-5 Tiger II.The product of probably more growth evolutions than any other design, the derivative
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-17#Development
the US used the F-5 till mid 1980. retired it. Between 1980-2003. US had fought 4 wars. Bosnian War, the 1st and second gulfwar, and afganistan. 3 of this wars had air combat as the spear head of their campaigns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_exchange_ratio
In 2003 they acquired second hand F-5 upgraded them and reinstated them in there service of aggress their lead role fighters F-16 and F-15. Not as basic trainers but still as aggressors squadrons. Read in between the lines.
US buys second hand fighters
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1050&ct=1
us buy used F-5
us buy used F-5
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-6029626_ITM
USSR acknowledges the tiger
Read the last paragraphs. F-5 is better then theMiG23 let alone the MiG21.
Now what was your theory again.
Fuji, on September 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm Said
Russians building fourth generation fighter by copying F-5? That is so not true
Read below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23#Performance_tests
Fuji, on September 28th, 2009 at 6:17 pm Said
And you’re still ignoring my point. In an environment where pilot training and weapons are equal, TWR plays a big role. In an environment where pilot training and TWR are equal, weapons play a key role. In an environment where twr and weapons are equal, pilot training plays a big role. TWR is an important element of Air combat,
another un true statements based on TWR of the F-5 vs that of the MiG23/ MiG21 or the experiences of the pilots. The F-5 is pure a good dogfighter based on its design. The russian tested it above blog
Fuji, on September 26th, 2009 at 5:25 pm Said:
If you guys are much interested in Fighter jets and military hardware, I could point you to some nice defence forums for beginners. There you can gain knowledge as well as clarify your doubts. Let me know if you are interested
You have constantly be changing your goal post and lying. You poses the qualities of a true Nomadic Blogger who goes around arguing for argument sake in order to boast his ego. I wouldn,t be surprise to see you in another blog arguing For the F-5 after what you have learned from here. The closest experience or feel you have about the F-5 or any military fighter is on a internet web page and that’s all. Therefore your thought and sentiments are of your own making and are inconsequential what so ever they might be. We go with the perspectives of the experts USSR USA UK and several emerging markets think and say. They have the first hand experiences.
Risasi.
Stand down, soldier. This FIJI dude is dragging this debate with long-winded postings full of generalities without details. Specifically hot air, really. Standard disinformation gimmick – compress the detail and hide the absence of fact therein!! But I think the sting is on you, mate. Lets move this thing beyond this point, and your informed contribution is valued by a lot of us, both in and out of uniform.
Asante.
Damn it.. the comments are awaiting moderation. Reposting:
“””Its clear now that your arguments were for argument sake.You are Ill-informed.”””
Oh dear lord… What you are displaying is F-5 fanboyism. Just because your fav fighter is not as you thought it would be, you are indulging in this denial. Or maybe its blind patriotism?
“””http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/Iraq.htm
see 3 july 1986 in this log.”””
What is wrong with you? It clearly says it is “claimed” by iranians, same as the acig site. It is unconfirmed.
“MiG-25PD
claimed”
“””a new released acig article also mentions it
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_247.shtml
scroll down to the heading title
and read its third paragraph.
MiG was flown by a Top IqaF Ace.
This why until today the Iranians have modified and are still using the F-5.”””
Ofcourse, that’s the story of the Iranians. It clearly says in both sites that it is unconfirmed.
And what do you mean recent? Did you see the dates? Your link says it was written in 2003, while the Air-Air list says it was written in 2007.
“””1. both airforces had radars that could see their enemies . No advantages or disadvantages. One set was used more tactfully then the other.”””
It clearly says Ethiopia’s is more advanced, and hence vectored their low flying fighters into a favorable position to get a sneak Aim-9 shot. Somalis can only detect fighters in high altitudes.
“””2. Sidewinder are infrared missile it has to be fired at the fighters rear. This is a Dogfight. Therefore the MiG,s were killed in dogfights. No BVR.”””
That’s what is called as an ambush. They get to the blind spot of their Mig’s radar, get to their behind, and fire their missile. That’s the advantage of having a AWACS type radar.
“””3. there was no AWACS technology in between Ethiopia and Somalia. This where Air surveillance radars especial during this time. Vectoring a fighter by ground radar is not AWACS AWACS”””
That’s why I said “TYPE”. I didn’t say they are AWACS. Awacs is a radar on a plane, similar to a air surveillance radar on the ground. But since it is mobile, it cannot be targetted by ballistic or cruise missiles. Also it’s flying height ensures that it has a greater range.
“””4. the eliment of ambush wasn,t always present. Two F-5 attacked 4 Mig21.the first two might be ambushed but after the other two MiGs were aware of what was going on.”””
Aim 9 is a fire and forget missile. Which means the moment you fire them, the next second you can take the other missile and target you opponent. You don’t have to wait till the missile hits the aircraft. It takes mere seconds to target another fighter. The first missile would not have even reached the Migs. Aim-9 have a range of around 10kms, could be higher.
“””All upgrades come with improved features including engines atimes. Have you ever see an upgrade with feature below it? The TOPGUN instructors wanted a 4th generation fighter simulator. Do you even know features of a . 4th generation fighter Read through :innovative technologies introduced in fourth-generation fighters include “look-down/shoot-down” capability, head-up displays (HUD), “hands on throttle-and-stick” (HOTAS) controls, and multi-function displays (MFD), Infrared search-and-track (IRST) and atimes Composite materials in the form of bonded aluminum honeycomb structural elements and graphite epoxy laminate among others. Not crappy engines as you say. This are the upgrades that have been done to the new F-5″””
What? It clearly says they can’t simulate the performance of Mig-29 and Su-27. So they chose the upgraded F-20 which has a better engine. And simulation does not mean 100% mimicing. Even a 60%-80% would do. But the F-5’s are so crappy, they can’t even simulate, let alone completely completely mimic the Su-27 & Mig-29.
Just because you have HUD doesn’t mean it can simulate the Russian 4 gen fighters. With such a shitty engine, Mig-29 would run circles around it.
“””Selection of pilots to fight the aggressor squadron where the best from there unit and would again go back to give an account of what they learnt. The pilots do dogfighters with one of the best fighter pilots in their military flying the best aircrafts for dogfights.”””
Yeah.. So? Aggressor pilots fly the F-5 to simulate Mig-21s and F-7s.
“””Again when you look at the rate of climb of an aircraft a good indicator of the engine performance during dogfights”””
Yes.
“””1. MiG29 lower TWR but climbs faster then a F-15.
2. F-16, F-15, F-18 all share the same Rate of climb but the TWR is F-15,F-16,F-18 in descending order.
3.Su27 vs Eurofighter2000 the Su27 has less TWR and but higher Rate of climb. The Eurofighter 2000 has the latest supercruise engines.”””
That is the instantaneous/initial rate of climb! Initial rate of climb can be misleading because a fighter with has inertia can use it to climb for a short distance. But after a while it will slow down due to low power of engines. Also as it gains altitude, lesser wing area or specifically high wing loading will slow down the fighter.
If F-15 is subjected to the same inertia, then it will climb faster than a Mig-29. The real deal is time taken to reach a decent height(5000m) and divide it by the time to get the real rate of climb. Here Mig-29 can only manage-
From wiki:
“The initial rate of climb record for pilot aircraft is held by MiG-29 at 330 m/s (65,000 ft/min). The average rate of climb for a MiG-29 is only 109 m/s from sea level to 6000 m.”
“Time to climb to 6000 m (Steigzeit): about 55 sec”
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/frtypen/FRMiG-29.htm
But lets look at F-15, from wiki:
“The F-15’s maneuverability is derived from low wing loading (weight to wing area ratio) with a high thrust-to-weight ratio enabling the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed. The F-15 can climb to 30,000 ft (10,000 m) in around 60 seconds. The thrust output of the dual engines is greater than the aircraft’s weight, thus giving it the ability to accelerate in a vertical climb.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle
It is simple physics, If you throw a stone with more force, the stone goes even higher. With more powerful engine which has more force, you climb faster. This is kindergaden physics, so to speak. Although in Aeronautics, wing loading also comes into play. But when compared to TWR, wing loading is important but a bit secondary, since most modern fighters have reasonable wingloadings.
Here are some Wing loadings for 3505kg loaded weight:
290.1 – Eurofighter
291.8 – F-15C
303.9 – Mirage-IIIE
319.4 – Su-27
453.8 – F-5E Tiger-II
Empty Weight – Wing area – Fighter
11,000 – 50.00 – Eurofighter
12,973 – 56.48 – F-15C
07,050 – 34.85 – Mirage-III
16,300 – 62.00 – Su-27
04,336 – 17.28 – F-5E Tiger-II
It is interesting to note that Mirage-III makes up it’s low TWR with it’s low wing loading. Well, what do you expect from Delta winged fighters. Delta wing increases weight, so if the engine is low on thrust, then TWR is low. But it somewhat makes up for the TWR loss with superb low wing loading. So that’s another blow for the F-5.
Unlike TWR, wing loading cannot be determined for every fighter because some fighters’ fuselage is blended with the wing, and so a part of it is a part of a wing. Mig-29 & F-16 are such examples.
“””singapore use it as an INTERCEPTOR ROLE. The squadrons have been winning Awards as late as last year. Squadron 144 and 149″””
Singapore is a city. There is nothing much to intercept there. Besides, you can employ a fighter with mach 1.6 speed to intercept if the aggressor is coming towards you of angle less than 90 degrees. Even a mig-15 can intercept in that case. But for intercept involving angles greater than 90 with opponent fighter speeds in excess of mach-1.6, F-5 is as use as a scrap.
And for Brazil & Thailand, like I said, they don’t have immediate threats. Also they have Rafale(about to be procured in small numbers) & Gripen respectively.
“””Again not true. When compared to the above and below postings.
now if you look at the articles I have posted with regards to the soviet i.e the MiG23 vs the F-5 both in hands of good pilots, same environment “friendly” the MiG23 having higher TWR then the F-5, the F-5 wins. The overall design of the aircraft does the winning.
Dogfighter depends on the quality and the overall design of the fighter in question and the training of the pilots. against each other. this holds almost 80% of the result.”””
It sure didn’t seems like 80% when Mig-21s were swatting F-5s out of the sky. Where did the F-5s win with equal pilot skill and equipment? Quote it. And what overall design? This fighter as designed in the 60s for crying out loud! TWR is one of the basic of Dogfights. Without power you can’t dogfight. Why do you think there are jet engines now instead of propeller planes? It is because of high TWRs.
CONCLUSION
United Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/527th_Space_Aggressor_Squadron
Reply “””
What the? It is not United kingdom. Read your link. it is a USAF squadron.. only based in the U.K. Also USAF does not operate F-5 because like I said before, they are inferior when compared to Mig-29 & Su-27. The squadron now uses F-16.
“””the US used the F-5 till mid 1980. retired it. Between 1980-2003. US had fought 4 wars. Bosnian War, the 1st and second gulfwar, and afganistan. 3 of this wars had air combat as the spear head of their campaigns.
wikipedia/wiki/Loss_exchange_ratio
In 2003 they acquired second hand F-5 upgraded them and reinstated them in there service of aggress their lead role fighters F-16 and F-15. Not as basic trainers but still as aggressors squadrons. Read in between the lines.”””
And your point is? So why didn’t they use their super duper F-5 in their war in afghanistan elsewhere and only use them in training? They are employed in Aggressor squadrons because of low cost and maintenance, and most importantly to simulate Mig-21s and F-7s.
“””The early MiG-23M series was also used to test the American F-5s captured by the North Vietnamese and sent to the former USSR for evaluation, however the Russians acknowledged the F-5 was a very agile aircraft and at some speeds and altitudes better than the MiG-23M, this was one of the main reasons the MiG-23MLD and MiG-29 developments were started. These tests of the F-5 allowed the russians to make modifications to several of their 4th generation aircraft, however despite the MiG-23 was not designed to combat F-5s, it showed the weaknesses of the early MiG-23 variants .”””
Read it again, it says EARLY Mig-23 variants, and most importantly only on SOME speeds. SOME SPEEDS!!! Most probably its is the slow speed envelop since early Mig-23 variants are very very poor there. Kinda loosely similar to Mig-25.
Read it from you own Mig-23 wiki link:
“The early Flogger variants were intended to be used in high-speed missile attacks, but it was soon noticed that fighters often had to engage in more stressful close-in combat. Early production aircraft had actually suffered cracks in the fuselage during their service career. Maneuverability of the aircraft was also criticized. A considerable redesign of the airframe was performed, resulting in the MiG-23ML (L – lightweight), which made it in some ways a new aircraft.”
“Intended(designed) to be used in high speed missile attacks and not close-in combats/dogfights”… Got that?
“””another un true statements based on TWR of the F-5 vs that of the MiG23/ MiG21 or the experiences of the pilots. The F-5 is pure a good dogfighter based on its design. The russian tested it above blog”””
Read above paragraph.
“”” You have constantly be changing your goal post and lying. You poses the qualities of a true Nomadic Blogger who goes around arguing for argument sake in order to boast his ego. I wouldn,t be surprise to see you in another blog arguing For the F-5 after what you have learned from here. The closest experience or feel you have about the F-5 or any military fighter is on a internet web page and that’s all. Therefore your thought and sentiments are of your own making and are inconsequential what so ever they might be. We go with the perspectives of the experts USSR USA UK and several emerging markets think and say. They have the first hand experiences.”””
lol.. I have posted numerous quotes from U.S themselves that they are inferior(and also the russians of their early Mig23s performance). Also there is the piss poor performance against the Mig-21.
You are just blind with nationalism. Just because your country has it, it is the best. Or you are an F-5 fanboy. Either one of these 2 reasons or both.
“””Stand down, soldier. This FIJI dude is dragging this debate with long-winded postings full of generalities without details. Specifically hot air, really. Standard disinformation gimmick – compress the detail and hide the absence of fact therein!! But I think the sting is on you, mate. Lets move this thing beyond this point, and your informed contribution is valued by a lot of us, both in and out of uniform.”””
Oi.. oi just because you can’t face the truth don’t reduce it to hot air. F-5 was great for it’s time, but not now.
Kinda bored.. some facts on the F-15 from wiki:
“The F-15 in all air forces had an air-to-air combined record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat as of February 2008. To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces.”
Cool! F-18 doesn’t have this record.. I remember it being shot down by the Iraqi AF.
Some F-20 facts:
“The main change was the replacement of the F-5’s two General Electric J85 engines with a single General Electric F404 turbofan, increasing its total thrust by 60%.”
60% increase of engine thrust!
“The Pakistan Air Force was offered the F-20 and A-10 Thunderbolt II, but insisted on choosing the F-16 because it was felt that it would give them a technological advantage.
After six years and no major buyers, Northrop cancelled the $1.2 billion project. Air forces that could afford the F-20 bought the F-16, while ones which could buy neither, purchased the cheaper F-5E/F Tiger II or the Russian MiG-21. While its performance was comparable to the Block 1/5/10 F-16 and superior to the turbojet-powered export-variant F-16/79, the F-20 airframe had virtually no remaining expansion capability, as it was built on essentially a 20 year old airframe at the limits of its capabilities.”
http://www.aircraft-list.com/db/F-20_Tigershark/83/
It was comparable to F-16 due to it’s new 60% more thrust turbofan engines. It was superior to the turbojet powered F-16s… I mentioned it sometime before that F-5 engine was crappy because of it’s low thrust and it being a turbo jet.
“20 year old airframe at the limits of its capabilities”… no surprises there. They should have modified the airframe with medium/high set wings, non-wing undercarriage and larger wing area like they did for the YF-17. F-16’s were constantly evolved into block 15,20,30,50 etc etc but the airframe design of F-20 was at its limits.
BTW, in my previous reply regarding wing loading for blended fuselages, the sentence should refined as “cannot be determined(accurately) for every fighter”. You can take the wing area and calculate the loading, but the part of the fuselage’s area will be left out of the calculation.
Fuji, on October 4th, 2009 at 9:50 pm Said:
Kinda bored.. some facts on the F-15 from wiki:
“The F-15 in all air forces had an air-to-air combined record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat as of February 2008. To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces.”
Cool! F-18 doesn’t have this record.. I remember it being shot down by the Iraqi AF
So what. who disputes the F-15 is better fighter then the F-5 or the F-18. its good that you have just realized it. The F-15 is one of the best lead role fighters. again arguing for argument sake
Acig states
Another MiG-25PD(export) is known to have been shot down by F-14s and F-5s, in 1983, while another – flown by the Iraqi top “ace” of the Iraq-Iran War, Lt.Col. Mohammad “Sky Falcon” Rayyan – was shot down by gunfire from an IRIAF F-5E while underway at Mach 1 and 29.000ft, in July 1986.
Crippled jets don,t move at the speed of sound.
Fuji, on October 3rd, 2009 at 5:38 pm Said
sure didn’t seems like 80% when Mig-21s were swatting F-5s out of the sky. Where did the F-5s win with equal pilot skill and equipment? Quote it. And what overall design? This fighter as designed in the 60s for crying out loud! TWR is one of the basic of Dogfights. Without power you can’t dogfight. Why do you think there are jet engines now instead of propeller planes? It is because of high TWRs
the equally trained pilots and friendly ground F-5 dogfighter against russian MiGs was done in russia. The soviets tested the F-5 against there fighters and admitted it was better.
Fuji, on October 4th, 2009 at 9:50 pm Said:
Some F-20 facts:
“The main change was the replacement of the F-5’s two General Electric J85 engines with a single General Electric F404 turbofan, increasing its total thrust by 60%.”
Most upgrade come with an improved engines if not new ones. Am surprise you find it disturbing. It’s a wise trend to improve the engine output and efficiency when changing or upgrading them, when else can you do this? See F-15A/B to F-15C/D. F-16 upgrade, the MiG23MLD all got better engines then when they roled out. I don,t see why your disturbed on this aspect. You want a new engine with less or same power? there many other examples on the net spend some time to find out.
General Electric J85. (F-5) is not a problematic engine. If fact its to the contra. Its the longest produced military engine and a success story. It has the highest powered turbojet engine for it size. The United States Air Force plans to continue using the J85 in aircraft through 2040
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_J85
“20 year old airframe at the limits of its capabilities”… no surprises there. They should have modified the airframe with medium/high set wings, non-wing undercarriage and larger wing area like they did for the YF-17. F-16’s were constantly evolved into block 15,20,30,50 etc etc but the airframe design of F-20 was at its limits
or maybe put delta or swept back wings…………….. whats your point?
The F-5 evolved from the tiger/freedom fighter, tiger II, tiger III. The new tigers consist of many upgrades (4th generation aspects) all under the same frame. Whats your point again.
. Read through the design of the F-20. Which included other things among engines. 4th generation features.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark#Design
The F-20 fell out due to the following reason and not as you think so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark#Limiting_exports
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark#Cancellation
In all subjects there always those who like or hate it. So if you don,t like the F-5 go a head and suit yourself. It doesn’t change a thing. the truth shall always be. what you say or believe in are in your own perceptions and are inconsequential. we go by what the experts have realized. The Americans retired the F-5 in the mid 80,s and reinstated it in 2003. the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane. the Americans have given the F-5 a 10+ years service dedicated time in there armed forces. Not as a basic trainer or for targets practice but to challenge there best pilots in 4th generation birds. the f-5 will perform this duty until 2015. I really don,t have to prove any thing more to you. It’s all above in black and white let all read and make his on judgments.
“””So what. who disputes the F-15 is better fighter then the F-5 or the F-18. its good that you have just realized it. The F-15 is one of the best lead role fighters. again arguing for argument sake”””
lol.. With a blind patriot like you who knows what’s in your mind. I never saw you claim F-5 is inferior to F-15.
The Su-27 & the Mig-29 was designed to counter the American F-15 and the F-16 jets. That’s the reason why F-5’s can’t simulate them. The difference in performance is very wide.
“””Acig states
Another MiG-25PD(export) is known to have been shot down by F-14s and F-5s, in 1983, while another – flown by the Iraqi top “ace” of the Iraq-Iran War, Lt.Col. Mohammad “Sky Falcon” Rayyan – was shot down by gunfire from an IRIAF F-5E while underway at Mach 1 and 29.000ft, in July 1986.
Crippled jets don,t move at the speed of sound.”””
I don’t know how many times I have repeated this. F-14 fired the bvr and crippled the Mig. The F-5 took another shot at the now crippled Mig using Aim-9. The gunfire story is unconfirmed, for good reasons. No Mig-25 pilot is stupid enough to get shot down by F-5’s gun. The Mig-25 was crippled at the first incident, not the second gun incident. Stop confusing yourself by living in denial.
“””the equally trained pilots and friendly ground F-5 dogfighter against russian MiGs was done in russia. The soviets tested the F-5 against there fighters and admitted it was better.”””
The wiki link already said the jets were not designed for slow speed combat. The early variants was only designed for hit and run combat. Why are you repeating this all over again?
“””Most upgrade come with an improved engines if not new ones. Am surprise you find it disturbing. It’s a wise trend to improve the engine output and efficiency when changing or upgrading them, when else can you do this? See F-15A/B to F-15C/D. F-16 upgrade, the MiG23MLD all got better engines then when they roled out. I don,t see why your disturbed on this aspect. You want a new engine with less or same power? there many other examples on the net spend some time to find out.
General Electric J85. (F-5) is not a problematic engine. If fact its to the contra. Its the longest produced military engine and a success story. It has the highest powered turbojet engine for it size. The United States Air Force plans to continue using the J85 in aircraft through 2040″””
Yeah, some upgrades come with an upgraded engine. But not a 60% increase in thrust! That’s a huge amount. If you compare the Engine thrust of F-16block 10 with F-16 block 30, it’s only around 30%. For F-15 & F-18, it’s below 30-40%. This shows the underpowered nature of the F-5s engine. F-5 whether it is tiger-II or tiger-III has the same engine. As a result it’s flight maneuvers is seriously affected due to low TWR. It can’t climb, can’t recover Airspeed losses quickly… as a result can’t make sustained sharp turns. If you can’t make sustained sharp turns during a dogfight, you’re turn radius will be huge. If your opponent has a shorter turn radius then you’re dead. Mig-23MLD, Mig-29, Su-27 can all outmaneuver the F-5 easily in a dogfight.
“””or maybe put delta or swept back wings…………….. whats your point?
The F-5 evolved from the tiger/freedom fighter, tiger II, tiger III. The new tigers consist of many upgrades (4th generation aspects) all under the same frame. Whats your point again.
. Read through the design of the F-20. Which included other things among engines. 4th generation features.”””
My point is the F-5’s airframe & engine is old. If you take a Subaru 360 and add smart brakes, a dvd player, power steering, GPS navigation and surround sound which is found in modern cars, the fact is it is still a crappy subaru in the end, with a shitty engine with a piss poor acceleration and top speed. Get the picture?
“””The F-20 fell out due to the following reason and not as you think so.”””
I didn’t think so? I didn’t think or mention that, it was mentioned by the aviation website. I gave it’s link below the statement in the previous post.
The same export restriction was applied to F-16 as well, but see how many early Block F-16s were sold to the USAF and NATO even though early Block F-16s and F-20 was comparable in performance. USAF and NATO opted for F-16 over F-20, eventhough it has a new shiny turbofan engine with 60% increase in thrust. The reason is because it’s Airframe(low set wings & wing undercarriage) is basically old design and had reached it’s end.
“””In all subjects there always those who like or hate it. So if you don,t like the F-5 go a head and suit yourself. It doesn’t change a thing. the truth shall always be. what you say or believe in are in your own perceptions and are inconsequential. we go by what the experts have realized. The Americans retired the F-5 in the mid 80,s and reinstated it in 2003. the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane. the Americans have given the F-5 a 10+ years service dedicated time in there armed forces. Not as a basic trainer or for targets practice but to challenge there best pilots in 4th generation birds. the f-5 will perform this duty until 2015. I really don,t have to prove any thing more to you. It’s all above in black and white let all read and make his on judgments.”””
The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. This is not “the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane”. The U.S buys such planes to be used in Aggressor combat. The U.S also bought Mig-21s previously to be used in Aggressor training. But since the U.S has bought this from countries which have rebelled against Soviets/Russia, this means there is no support of spares. So these precious fighters are only used sparingly in Aggressor training. This is where the F-5s and F-16 come in. These 2 jets simulate Mig-2s and Mig-29’s respectively for longer flight times, while the actual Mig-21s and Mig-29s are used on only a few training occasions due to unavailability of spares & support. The U.S did not buy F-5s for use in combat operations, they are just there to mimic the now junk Mig-21/F-7s, nothing more.
The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. This is not “the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane”. The U.S buys such planes to be used in Aggressor combat. The U.S also bought Mig-21s previously to be used in Aggressor training. But since the U.S has bought this from countries which have rebelled against Soviets/Russia, this means there is no support of spares. So these precious fighters are only used sparingly in Aggressor training. This is where the F-5s and F-16 come in. These 2 jets simulate Mig-2s and Mig-29’s respectively for longer flight times, while the actual Mig-21s and Mig-29s are used on only a few training occasions due to unavailability of spares & support. The U.S did not buy F-5s for use in combat operations… the junk F-5s they are just there to mimic the junk Mig-21/F-7s, nothing more.
http://air-combat.suite101.com/article.cfm/secret_migs_flown_by_the_usaf
“The American flyers of these aircraft had to contend with un-maintainable and mysterious planes as they had no spare parts or technical manuals available. Ground crews had to resort to reverse engineering aircraft components and manufacturing them from raw materials just to keep them in the air. US pilots found out first hand how dangerous these aircraft were and two lost their lives in catastrophic crashes. They did, however, learn the strengths and weakness of the Warsaw Pact’s fast movers and this information would prove to be invaluable to NATO fliers in any sort of East/West engagement. This was proven in air to air combat every time these Soviet Cold War era aircraft have been encountered in Iraq, Libya, Angola and elsewhere.
The 4477th flew its last MiGs in 1990 and with the end of the Cold War was deactivated. The 6513th which had stopped flying MiGs in the early eighties was inactivated in 1992. In 2006, the Constant Peg program was declassified and the USAF held a series of press conferences about the former top secret US MiGs. It was revealed that the US MiGs flew more than 15,000 sorties and nearly 7,000 aircrew flew in training against dissimilar aggressors in the Nevada desert between 1980 and the end of the program in 1988. These included the ‘real’ MiGs as well as US made A4 and T-38/F5 aircraft visually modified to be ‘fake’ MiGs. The Groom Lake facility still exists (unofficially, of course).”
I’m a fan of Me262. But that doesn’t mean I’m blind. if someone says Me262 is better than a F-5 I would not stand by and let him sprout such nonsense. Me262 was a great fighter, but it is junk, just like the F-5s which are junks by todays standards.
You are just living in denial about your Airforce’s F-5.
BTW, the U.S just bought Su-27 for aggressor training a few months back.
en.rian.ru/world/20090512/155007415.html
Fuji, on October 6th, 2009 at 7:25 am Said
The wiki link already said the jets were not designed for slow speed combat. The early variants was only designed for hit and run combat. Why are you repeating this all over again?
Yes with its high speed and TWR the F-5 will bring it down when it they meet that all that matters. As you earlier stated the MiG should have “circled around the F-5 and be at a vantage point behind it. and while the F-5 tried to out maneuver the MiG it would loss power to tight turns” What happened then? what’s your assumptions now? “if the F-5 comes from behind the MiG should be able to accelerate around and behind the F-5 again” wasn,t that what your have been saying all along.
The low TWR F-5 bringing down MiGs with higher TWR gives you a double punch.
1. it not true what you say about the TWR list
2. the F-5 on a fair playing field brings down many Russian aircrafts. i.e from the MiG23 and below. The MiG 25 was brought down by the F-5 in a dogfight. On the Su27 or Mig29. its yet to be seen.. The F-5 is a good dogfighter.
The Russians tested the F-5 against the Mig21 and the F-5 won inside the USSR airspace. What else do you need to hear? This was done in a friendly environment for research purpose. Repeatedly again and again until they come out with conclusive results. I said this to inform you on that the Iranian F-5 and pilots were a victim of there regime. Otherwise more MiG21/23 would have ended up in the scrap yards. Therefore the picture posed in he iran/iraq war with regards to the F-5 vs MiG21/23 is stained. Get a clear opinion, from the manufacture of the MiG21 and MiG23 when he conducted dogfights against both aircrafts against the F-5.
and when they did come out with conclusive results about the superiority of the F-5 in dogfight against there fighters they copied it (natural thing to do) for there 4th generation fighter. something you have always denied until I showed you from wiki. who is in denial know?
Yeah, some upgrades come with an upgraded engine. But not a 60% increase in thrust! That’s a huge amount. If you compare the Engine thrust of F-16block 10 with F-16 block 30, it’s only around 30%. For F-15 & F-18, it’s below 30-40%
60% came from innovation not luck. so what if they made the better engine they shouldn’t use it?
1. Fuji, on October 6th, 2009 at 7:53 am Said:
The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. ……….
No no a big lie again the US brought the MiGs because they were capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Therefore preventing them from being sold to “rogue states”. Iran in mind The MiG29 were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center and not to aggressor squadrons as you say..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#MiG_29s_in_the_United_States
The F-5 on the other hand was purchased as a supplement for the aggressor squadron
Ok posted another lie..am waiting
“””Yes with its high speed and TWR the F-5 will bring it down when it they meet that all that matters. As you earlier stated the MiG should have “circled around the F-5 and be at a vantage point behind it. and while the F-5 tried to out maneuver the MiG it would loss power to tight turns” What happened then? what’s your assumptions now? “if the F-5 comes from behind the MiG should be able to accelerate around and behind the F-5 again” wasn,t that what your have been saying all along. “””
What part of “it was not designed for slow speed dogfights”, didn’t you understand? In order to get behind your opponent it has to make a circle. But to do that in SLOW SPEEDS it has to reduce it’s thrust. Once it reduces it’s thrust, it’s TWR is in shambles. In the real world, you are not stupid to get into slow speeds if you are a Mig-23 pilot, Mig-23 will use it’s speed and acceleration to get behind the F-5, eventhough turn circle will be a higher, the initial advantage the F-5 has will be eclipsed with speed and TWRs.
“””The low TWR F-5 bringing down MiGs with higher TWR gives you a double punch.
1. it not true what you say about the TWR list
2. the F-5 on a fair playing field brings down many Russian aircrafts. i.e from the MiG23 and below. The MiG 25 was brought down by the F-5 in a dogfight. On the Su27 or Mig29. its yet to be seen.. The F-5 is a good dogfighter.
The Russians tested the F-5 against the Mig21 and the F-5 won inside the USSR airspace. What else do you need to hear? This was done in a friendly environment for research purpose. Repeatedly again and again until they come out with conclusive results. I said this to inform you on that the Iranian F-5 and pilots were a victim of there regime. Otherwise more MiG21/23 would have ended up in the scrap yards. Therefore the picture posed in he iran/iraq war with regards to the F-5 vs MiG21/23 is stained. Get a clear opinion, from the manufacture of the MiG21 and MiG23 when he conducted dogfights against both aircrafts against the F-5.”””
What are you saying? Do you have selective amnesia? How many times do I have to say that fight was staged in favor of F-5 with combat taking place in slow speeds? You yourself said it was for purely research purposes. And How many times do I have to quote from sources that iran have better pilots, more planes, better missiles and yet those F-5 Junks were shot down like flies. Those F-14s were also flown by the same pilots and missiles, but count how many kills F-14 made(both BVR and Dogfight missiles separately) on the Mig-21. And those F-14 planes are even worse to maintain than F-5 since they require a lot of spares & maintenance and are costly to fly, but surprisingly they shot down more.
And what do you mean “it not true what you say about the TWR list”? Can’t you even understand a simple fact that we are now flying jets instead of propellers because of better TWRs, rate of climb and maneuverability(if designed for it)? Can’t you even understand the simple fact that nations are developing new and better powerful engines to have high TWRs? And how many times do I have to post the link stating F-5 didn’t shoot down a single Mig-25, and the only kill it made is when the jet was already hit by F-14s missile and was crippled. And your Country’s F-5 can’t even fire BVR while Mig-29 and Su-27 can, and hold the clear edge in dogfight combat.
And what do you mean Mig-21/23? It only says Mig-23 not 21, and that too it mentions slow speed combat.
“””and when they did come out with conclusive results about the superiority of the F-5 in dogfight against there fighters they copied it (natural thing to do) for there 4th generation fighter. something you have always denied until I showed you from wiki. who is in denial know?”””
Yeah, conclusive results for a staged fight in favor of F-5, not a real world fight. And do you know the meaning of copied? It is said to be ‘some modifications’, most probably only cockpit since American fighters are known to have easy pilot interface. Mig29’s airframe and TWR is nothing like the F-5, it’s a totally different design.
“””60% came from innovation not luck. so what if they made the better engine they shouldn’t use it? “””
You are missing the point, 60% increase just goes to show how much underpowered the F-5’s engine is. Other upgrades don’t have that much increase of thrust.
“””The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. ……….
No no a big lie again the US brought the MiGs because they were capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Therefore preventing them from being sold to “rogue states”. Iran in mind The MiG29 were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center and not to aggressor squadrons as you say..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#MiG_29s_in_the_United_States“””
What? Do you think the U.S would advertise to everybody that they are buying fighters for their secret mig aggressors? Did you read the link of how U.S maintains their mig aggressors in secrecy till 2006? And your wiki link clearly says “PART of the motive”, what is the other part? To prove Working evaluation and data. How can you have a complete evaluation of a working/flying mig without being put to test as aggressors? Use common sense. Some of the 20 or so migs which are in good flying condition will surely be used as aggressors. Buying a cake and not eating it is just stupid. And BTW, Iran doesn’t even have a nuclear weapon.
“””Ok posted another lie..am waiting”””
The only lie in here is you lying to yourself. I’ve debunked every thing you’ve listed as lie, but you’re still lying to yourself and can’t come to terms with reality that your country operates junk fighters, most probably in a deal which involved kickbacks. And most probably those junks can’t even fire bvr weapons.
I feel Fuji is twisting facts & aurging for the sake of it,basically spliting hairs. I doent mean that Iran,a rogue nation, wouldnt be keen on buying the nuclear capable Mig 29,since they dont even have the nuclear weapon. It is widely assumed that they are working on nuclear weapons.& it should follow that they would be keen on acquring the means of delivery,-missile,aircraft,or otherwise. Now he wants to dispute Risasi’s restatement of what wiki says by saying the US wouldnt advertise their intention,bla bla bla.
This is becoming boring.In that respect, may i call members to vote, we see where views are more aligned to. Risasi’s point of view has my vote.Anyone else?
That Kenya’s F5s do not have BVR. Not necessarily a true statement (by Fuji).There isnt any info if the F5s being upgraded by Rockwell Collins will (or not) have this feature. Another false aurgument. I see Fuji bent on demonstrating how the F5 is junk, without regard to what geopolitical environmnt the F5s in discussion are. It would be informative that to check the what other airforces in the region are armed with.A country arms based on its percieved threat matrix. That US ally airforces that keep the F5,even though they can afford the better F16, is because they have the US airforce as backup.So they are ok with their “junk” fighter, i.e they do not keep it for its performance. That is a false argument. Hope everyone can see through it. It doesnt explain why say, Saudi Arabia would keep a junk airforce,but yet keep a top notch equiped army.Same as Norway, Spain, South Korea,Singapore, etc. So, applying the same augument,it doesnt explain why those that can afford are stepping up to the F16, after staying so long with “junk”. All in all, lets see what other others have to say
I agree with IZZO, and said much earlier this guy is simply hot-air deskjockey swamping us with info in the hope that he will obsfucate the absence of fact and reality in his posting. We need to move on from here, and continue to develop this discussion. This trick is as old as war itself, as any student of warfare will attest – it is called disinformation, and we are all getting sucked into this. Not worthy checking into this blog to read his posting RISASI HAS MY VOTE!!
It doesent escape you guys that there are lots of guys who manufacture reputable alternatives to the upgrade F5E /F20 who resent the continued dominance of this variant in the specific tasking that any military with non-intercontinental capacity requires. Without doubts at all, this fighter responds to all critical crieteria of Forces in this category, better than any of the other pretenders. I wouldnt be surprised if FIJI was not pushing to influence long-term strategic planning in favour of his preferred model, in which case one would doubt all the data he has swamped this blog with. Despite the plethora of “data” he offers, there is contained factual numerous contradictions amd outright misinformation in this same data FIJI posts in this blog, so as to critically wound his posting, Beware, guys!!
He he he! Come to think of it. He posted his detailed table without stating its origin/link. A fraction of me thinks its “internally generated data for comparative purposes” ,probably for the purposes implied by tom…well.never mind.am just speculating.
Long ago, before things got this heated up,someone had just come back home from a long tour “.. a CI tour of the Ituri /North Kivu Sector, then swore that the place is really “hot”, and that ..”the world does not know just how!” He promised we would hear more, then he went quiet. Also someone else promised to post some photos. Havent seen those either..
“””I feel Fuji is twisting facts & aurging for the sake of it,basically spliting hairs. I doent mean that Iran,a rogue nation, wouldnt be keen on buying the nuclear capable Mig 29,since they dont even have the nuclear weapon. It is widely assumed that they are working on nuclear weapons.& it should follow that they would be keen on acquring the means of delivery,-missile,aircraft,or otherwise. Now he wants to dispute Risasi’s restatement of what wiki says by saying the US wouldnt advertise their intention,bla bla bla.”””
Isn’t it the other way around? Risasi trying to twist facts to suit his F-5 fanboyism. First he gleefully posted Iran Iraq war, but later withdrew after coming to know of his folly.
And not just me, even other experts say U.S bought those for testing and studying the Aircombat potential of the Mig-29s rather than the Iran story.
“Contrary to what was broadly reported, namely, and even if at least six of these are now displayed at different places in the USA, the main purpose of that purchase was again to test and study the type, instead of preventing Iran to get additional MiG-29s. ”
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_371.shtml
You have to be pretty naive, ignorant and childish to believe that U.S bought those solely because of the Iran factor. Would you pass the opportunity to test against real enemies/Aggressors(Mig-29s) than opt for fake ones(F-16s). Even in the 2006 breifing, I think there is no mention of Mig-29s, just goes to show how secretive Mig-29s are deployed to train their pilots against Mig-29 threats from other countries.
“””This is becoming boring.In that respect, may i call members to vote, we see where views are more aligned to. Risasi’s point of view has my vote.Anyone else?”””
Right… in a Kenyan blog, populated by kenyans, on Kenyan’s one and only fighter, people will vote fairly. lol This isn’t democracy.
“””That Kenya’s F5s do not have BVR. Not necessarily a true statement (by Fuji).There isnt any info if the F5s being upgraded by Rockwell Collins will (or not) have this feature. Another false aurgument. I see Fuji bent on demonstrating how the F5 is junk, without regard to what geopolitical environmnt the F5s in discussion are. It would be informative that to check the what other airforces in the region are armed with.A country arms based on its percieved threat matrix. That US ally airforces that keep the F5,even though they can afford the better F16, is because they have the US airforce as backup.So they are ok with their “junk” fighter, i.e they do not keep it for its performance. That is a false argument. Hope everyone can see through it. It doesnt explain why say, Saudi Arabia would keep a junk airforce,but yet keep a top notch equiped army.Same as Norway, Spain, South Korea,Singapore, etc. So, applying the same augument,it doesnt explain why those that can afford are stepping up to the F16, after staying so long with “junk”. All in all, lets see what other others have to say”””
Unlike, Kenya, none of their air forces operates ONLY junk fighters, that’s the difference. Infact, they have F-16’s Mirage-2000’s and F-15s as THE jets to rely on. But you are right about one thing, F-5 are good if there is USAF backing/no threat from the neighbors,… or in other words old/junk platforms are enough for reduced threats.
And it is true that Kenyan’s F-5 most probably doesn’t have BVRs.
“””I agree with IZZO, and said much earlier this guy is simply hot-air deskjockey swamping us with info in the hope that he will obsfucate the absence of fact and reality in his posting. We need to move on from here, and continue to develop this discussion. This trick is as old as war itself, as any student of warfare will attest – it is called disinformation, and we are all getting sucked into this. Not worthy checking into this blog to read his posting RISASI HAS MY VOTE!!
It doesent escape you guys that there are lots of guys who manufacture reputable alternatives to the upgrade F5E /F20 who resent the continued dominance of this variant in the specific tasking that any military with non-intercontinental capacity requires. Without doubts at all, this fighter responds to all critical crieteria of Forces in this category, better than any of the other pretenders. I wouldnt be surprised if FIJI was not pushing to influence long-term strategic planning in favour of his preferred model, in which case one would doubt all the data he has swamped this blog with. Despite the plethora of “data” he offers, there is contained factual numerous contradictions amd outright misinformation in this same data FIJI posts in this blog, so as to critically wound his posting, Beware, guys!!”””
Obfuscating facts? Why’d you think Russia and U.S is spending billions on more powerful engines? They are idiots? Are they fooling the world or are they obstructing facts like me? I guess people on this blog are factual than Pratt and Whittney, General Electric, Saturn, Rolls Royce and Scnema.
Oh yeah.. Risasi gets my vote too for being a F-5 fanboy.
“””He he he! Come to think of it. He posted his detailed table without stating its origin/link. A fraction of me thinks its “internally generated data for comparative purposes” ,probably for the purposes implied by tom…well.never mind.am just speculating.”””
What? The empty weight/thrust data is very much available on open source if you’re not convinced. You can’t post links for each and every fighter type. F-5’s engine’s piss poor thrust is known to all.
Quoting from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-29.htm# ” The US Department of Defense of the United States of America and the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Moldova reached an agreement to implement the Cooperative Threat Reduction accord signed on June 23, 1997, in Moldova. The Pentagon pounced on the planes after learning Iran had inspected the jets and expressed an interest in adding them to their inventory. Although Iran already flew the less-capable Fulcrum A, it doesn’t own any of the more advanced C-models. Of the 21 Fulcrums the United States bought, 14 are the frontline Fulcrum C’s, which contain an active radar jammer in its spine, six older A’s and one B-model two-seat trainer. This agreement authorized the United States Government to purchase nuclear-capable MiG-29 fighter planes from the Government of Moldova. This was a joint effort by both Governments to ensure that these dual-use military weapons do not fall into the hands of rogue states”. It adds “If NAIO can discover how the Fulcrum works, Air Force pilots might gain an edge if they faced the Fulcrum in future combat. ”
Very clever of you to downplay the iranian element & overplay the aggressor training element.The strategy fits you well. But it isnt very dificult to see through your tactic.
More evidence of your downlaying aspects of an issue to suit you, & overplaying others.Still on the Iranian mig 29s
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41172
American Forces Press Service
WASHINGTON, Nov. 10, 1997 – The United States recently bought 21 nuclear-capable MiG-29 fighter jets from the Republic of Moldova to keep them out of the hands of potential enemies, Defense Secretary William S. Cohen announced Nov. 4.” Goes on “The jets were purchased under the Cooperative Threat Reduction Program aimed at reducing, controlling and eliminating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction from the former Soviet Union.
The program, also known as the Nunn-Lugar program, has helped draw down nuclear capabilities in Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. ”
Going by your line of argument, i reckon you will say,”No no, the US arent fools to state their real intentions, etc etc.
“””Very clever of you to downplay the iranian element & overplay the aggressor training element.The strategy fits you well. But it isnt very dificult to see through your tactic.
Going by your line of argument, i reckon you will say,”No no, the US arent fools to state their real intentions, etc etc.”””
Ofcourse, Those are statements from the official quarters. The existence of Mig aggressors were officially denied till 2006, That is a blinding fact. That quote and the news you posted happened on 1998. What part of Iran doesn’t have a Nuclear weapon didn’t you get? And what makes you think Iran wasn’t simply getting it for their Airforce? Those Migs are PRIMARILY designed for BVR & Dogfights, not a nuclear weapon platform. And the ACIG site clearly states that the main intention was to test the Fulcrums.
& to quote you, to illustrate your own back & forth-highlight-one-aspect-downpay-the-other style, you say “And it is true that Kenyan’s F-5 most probably doesn’t have BVRs.”
It is TRUE …MOST PROBABLY doenst have..
Ignoring the merits of your argument & just looking at the structure of your logic ( which btw, is evident in all your points), you state a word indicating absolute certainity (TRUE), then quickly follow it with those indicating absolute ambiguity (MOST PROBABLY), all under the same breath.
That, is what we mean argument for the sake of it. or splitting hairs, if you like.
“””It is TRUE …MOST PROBABLY doenst have..
Ignoring the merits of your argument & just looking at the structure of your logic ( which btw, is evident in all your points), you state a word indicating absolute certainity (TRUE), then quickly follow it with those indicating absolute ambiguity (MOST PROBABLY), all under the same breath.”””
Ofcourse, most probably means, the probability is greater than .5 and less than 1. Which means, the PROBABILITY of Kenyan F-5s HAVING BVR is LESS than 50%. Got it? I base my assumptions on the fact that F-5 upgrades doesn’t mention kenya. Saying true is perfectly valid in that statement since it enhances the assumption made to arrive at the probability.
Whats your point? Fine,you state that the migs were PRIMARILY designed for BVR & Dogfights, not a nuclear weapon platform. You ignore the globalsecurty post that says they were nuclear capable.
All in an effort to deny that they could not fit in the grand nuclear scheme of Iran, i.e development & deployment. You “prove” it by stating (correctly by the way), that the agressor role was officially denied till 2006. But you ignore the obvious fact that if you publicly (as US did) acquire a sophisticated enemy aircraft, you will OBVIOUSLY use/study it for adverserial purposes.No need for anyone to mention that.
Or is it that you say that the migs were not nuclear capable?
Or is it that you are stating that the migs were acquired PRIMARILY for their BVR & Dogfights attributes, & their nuclear capability on comes as a BONUS?
Or is it your position that Iran hadnt shown interest in the migs,& US only used that story to cover the aggresor training intentions? If so, please provide credible links.
“I base my assumptions on the fact that F-5 upgrades doesn’t mention kenya.”
http://www.encompass.info/news/page10599.html
On the financial highlghts Rockwell Collins does mention Kenya “Rockwell Collins was selected by Jordan Aeronautical Systems Company (JAC) for the upgrade of F-5 fighter aircraft. Rockwell Collins Government Systems will provide a Rockwell Collins Business and Regional avionics system to JAC for the upgrade of 15 F-5 fighter aircraft which are to be resold to the Kenyan Air Force. The contract also provides for the initial installation and additional modification support for an estimated 14 months.
Your assumption falls flat.Same as your use of TRUE to enhance the assumption made to arrive at the probability…
lol.. I did not ignore the obvious fact, it was risasi. I was arguring that Mig-29 aggressors are used to train pilots to face Mig-29s which the enemies of U.S have.
“””Or is it that you are stating that the migs were acquired PRIMARILY for their BVR & Dogfights attributes, & their nuclear capability on comes as a BONUS?
Or is it your position that Iran hadnt shown interest in the migs,& US only used that story to cover the aggresor training intentions? If so, please provide credible links.”””
I have heard the Migs can carry tactical nukes, but it is just a bonus. It was mainly designed as a BVR and Dogfighter. Iran did show interest, but they didn’t go around asking the moldovians whether they are nuclear capable. And why would they? they don’t even have nuclear material U235 Pu239, let alone a working nuclear bomb. And if when a country like iran has such a limited amount of nukes why would it risk using Fighter which can be shot down, than using ballistic missiles which are difficult to shoot down.
And I have given link to say U.S nuke story is a cover. And it’s a fact that Mig-29s were designed primarily to shoot down other fighters.
“The Mikoyan MiG-29 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-29; NATO reporting name: ‘Fulcrum’) is a 4th generation jet fighter aircraft designed in the Soviet Union for an air superiority role.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29
“””Your assumption falls flat.Same as your use of TRUE to enhance the assumption made to arrive at the probability…”””
You are talking out of context. You know we are talking about BVR upgrades, don’t you? I did plainly say upgrades to type fast, but you know that I meant BVR upgrades, because that is what the argument is about. Fine kenya upgrades it’s F-5s, good for it, now what upgrades?
And I’ve checked Rockwell collins, it seems they don’t upgrade Radars(required for BVR missiles), only GPS, radio etc etc.
No mention of Fighter plane radars.
http://www.rockwellcollins.com/products/gov/airborne/fighters/index.html
This debate is gone stale, guys, any more and you are going to stink. IZZO, drop this line, and lets get more discussion going. You will not out-argue this FIJI guy not unless you borrow his strategy to overwhelm with an overkill on peripheral data, Man!! You recall Saddam Hussein and his promise of the Mother of all Battels?!!
You wanna hear about the KIVU and ITURI before I deploy back or what? RISASI where at those pics you promised us all, soldier?
Ok, mate, I drop the line. Its going round in circles,& getting stale, as you rightly point out. Tell me, what is so “hot” about Kivu & Ituri?
Hey guys, can we move on? There must be lotsa not too well known subjects we could exchange stuff on that is topical and pertinent to today’s security situation in this region. Can we bury this Fiji guy and the F5 debate now? There is a hell of a lot going on along the Somali border both off and on shore – can we start this going then?
Hey guys, hold your horses and not be too quick to criticise the purchase of used F-5 from Jordan. As some of the writers correctly pointed out these fighter jets are still in use in some of the European countries, v.z. Greece, Turkey, etc.
The plane, though old in design (and therefore considered obsolete by some contributors here) are still capable flying machines with low maintainence requirements. Did you guys know that on the average for $1 spent of buying the plane you need to spend $4 on its maintainence during its proposed serviceable life span? So its a question of balance when you have a limited budget but yet want to have a fighter force of sufficient qualitiy as well as reasonable quantity.
In fact, with proper upgrading of its electronics and avionics like incorporation of phase-array radar, etc the F-5 can still be a potent plane in the air. Singapore’s F-5 have been upgraded with the latest avionics and electronics (now renamed F-5S) and are a match for any other modern advanced combat planes (except for the top range state of the art jets like the F-22, F-35, and to a lesser extent the F-15E or the MiG-29 and Su-27, etc) and they retain their interceptor role, although the front line strike role being left in the hands of the capable F-16, and deep strike and interdiction role being taken over by their new F-15 SG fighters. The point I am making is that the most advanced air force in South East Asia which is operating top of the range advance jet fighters
(F-15 SG) is still using the F-5 – that puts paid to the mistaken belief that it is an antiquated jet. It all depends on what the operator has made of it – whether it has serviced it to top flight level and incorporation of modern equipment, for instance, replacement of analog ones with digital outfits, HOTAS, HUD, etc. However, there is a limit to what can be upgraded, and this will surely be replacement of flight system to fly-by-wire, which in essence is a total replacement of the whole aircraft.
And lastly, but not least, it all depends on the quality of the training given to the fighter pilots, their flying experience, and exposure to exercises, etc. If they are not up to standard, giving them to fly the most advanced jets would not make any material difference. In the same light, well trained fighter pilots probably could out-manouvre and out-gun opposing lesser trained pilots flying more advanced jets
guys,
this issue fo the F5 is flying away with us……
wapi captain farah, major amonde na akina Major Eric Kinuthia Mbugua watatue hii story coz atleast thay fly this very bird that we are being told is a junk ! by the way the word junk means
guys,
this issue fo the F5 is flying away with us……
wapi captain farah, major amonde na akina Major Eric Kinuthia Mbugua watatue hii story coz atleast thay fly this very bird that we are being told is a junk ! by the way the word junk means Waste , any undesired thing or substance. Scrap , recyclable waste used to build new things.
move on guys…….
Hi guys,
Does Kenya any missile programs including developing ballistic missiles.
This whole F5 debate assumes overtones that I find insulting and unpalatable. That the African is so utterly hapless and stupid as to make national purchases in the Billions without due diligence. That our Lot is of the eternally duped, fooled by all, taking in third-grade equipment noone else wants nor can use!! Please give us some credit – some of the best brains in this country is Uniformed, widely acknowledged to be equal to the best competent and trained professionals. We know our stuff as well as the next man, the Command & Control Structures rigid enough to ensure quality and efficiency of action. This fella FIJI simply gets my goat up, with his condescending production that seeks to overwhelm with thunder without substance neither fire!! Defense Industry apologist is what I make him to be – the MVFaina was not randomly hijacked with just that cargo, but a result of a carefully exploited clandestine ops to ensure that further purchases of Military Hardware by Kenya reverted to traditional sources, to avoid the expected deluge of defections by other third-world countries to Russia, Ukraine, South Korea, China, Brazil, Argentina; and we all know it!
This whole F5 debate assumes overtones that I find insulting and unpalatable. I should much like it to finally close altogether, fellas. That the African is so utterly hapless and stupid as to make national purchases in the Billions without due diligence. That our Lot is of the eternally duped, fooled by all, taking in third-grade equipment noone else wants nor can use!! Please give us some credit – some of the best brains in this country is Uniformed, widely acknowledged to be equal to the best competent and trained professionals. We know our stuff as well as the next man, the Command & Control Structures rigid enough to ensure quality and efficiency of action. This fella FIJI simply gets my goat up, with his condescending production that seeks to overwhelm with thunder without substance neither fire!! Defense Industry apologist is what I make him to be – the MVFaina was not randomly hijacked with just that cargo, but a result of a carefully exploited clandestine ops to ensure that further purchases of Military Hardware by Kenya reverted to traditional sources, to avoid the expected deluge of defections by other third-world countries to Russia, Ukraine, South Korea, China, Brazil, Argentina; and we all know it!
Too many inteligent and educated Africans dwell on this fiction of the Goodness of Man to Man, and underate the capacity of Western Governments to ensure the fulfillment of their unique Strategic Objectives at the expense of all else. They created this somali Pirates, to serve their so-called international strategic interests, to fill in a gap of surveillance that existed with the collapse of all manner of Authority in Somalia. The whole purpose was to keep a strategic watch on the transitory traffic through the vital Red Sea channel – who goes and with what. And when appropriate to their interest, to set their dogs on any ship that carried cargo not to their liking. The advanced real-time satelite navigational equipment that these illiterate Somali pirates have is not only beyond civilian shopping abilities (despite the millions on ransoms paid) but is essentially of advanced military nature and utilization. Their real-time spot-on Intel isnt cobbled together by some third-rate primitive pirate organization, but strategically fed from complex and extensive satellite and human surveillance. In truth not even Al Queda possess the capacity and resources to be privy of all that these simpleton brigands clearly have in their arsenal of Equipment and Intel. Essentially these pirates became an extension of the so-called International Community’s) an euphemism for European and American Hedonistic Hegemony) military and foreign policy, interpretation both, and a vital component of both. But inevitably this soon unraveled and some of these pirates went rogue and opportunistic operations undertaken without sanction by their Western Intelligence masters, and therefore necessitating the large-scale and coordinated Caucasian military efforts to take back their precious Red Sea Channel. The Fourth Shipment of T-72 from the Ukraine was doomed before it left Odessa, the entire transaction long disapproved by these so-called International Community, because it broke the mold long established of third-world military spending that supported their Defense Industries. Earlier shipments were hush-hush clandestine in nature, shrouded in an intricate covert operation to obviate exactly this reaction by these Western charlatans. MVFIANA was tracked from the port of embankment to the point at which a motley crew of poorly armed and trained brigands hijacked – and the international media expose’ was all part and parcel of this carefully orchestrated scheme by the Western Intelligence Organizations. Contribution in certain Blogs were engineered and authored by these same organizations, and flogged to ensure that debate stayed alive and dissemination as widely as possible. Damn this naivety of Africans!!
Looking at your above theory,it looks somewhat credible. But again,why did that american navy spokeman keep saying that the tanks were destined for GoSS, contradicting the kenyan position on the matter.The position they took contradicts your theory. How do you explain the objective of their statements?
It has also been said that the pirates have agents/scouts monitoring the ships, say at the suez canal,+ from publicly available data on shipping vessels schedules, to work out how long a targeted vessel will take after sailing off,ex UK, through the Suez Canal,Red Sea etc. With GPS technology, a mother vessel & a few motorized small boats, I dont think the pirates would be a so much of a larger scheme that you’ve implied. I think they are just a bunch of young chaps without opportunities,with easy access to RPGs, & nothing to loose. You add the lure of getting the millions of ramsom money, i bet they would need any 3rd party prompting to go fishing ships instead of fish.
meant “…they wouldNT need any 3rd party prompting to go fishing ships instead of fish.
Central to the Strategic Interest of the West, as concerns this Greater East Africa Region comprising of the 10 Countries, is the continued unexploitation of strategic industrial minerals needed to ensure continuity of their Economies unto the 21st Century, It is not a secret that the Saudi Peninsula Oil Fields will deplete completely in about 50 years maxi. And that OUR region shares the same oil-bearing strata as the Saudi Peninsula, while the Central African Countries together have critical industrial minerals vital to the West. DRC alone has the greatest concentration of every manner of these minerals desperately demanded by the West, and small wonder that there has never been responsible representative Governance there nor peace for the last 100 years. It might not be well known that Somalia has the largest know offshore oil reserves in the World, as well as huge deposits of industrial minerals. But Western Economic Strategy has for the last 60 years revolved around strategies that ensure this mineral wealth remains unexploited and a strategic reserve for as long as is possible, intrinsic to which are the frequent conflicts and bad governance that has bedevilled this region for the last fifty years. It is instructive to recall that the justification for the Colonisation of Africa was mainly two-fold (a) raw materials for their expanding Economies driven by expanding populations,(b) consumer market for their industrial goods. These reasons were even more poignant at the end of colonisation than at the beginining of itm and Colonisation couldnt have ended without longterm safeguards build into whatever arragements the Africans were forced to accept by their Colonial Masters. Therefore, the key to our emancipation has and will always be the controlled exploitation of our mineral wealth to facilitate economic growth. In Kenya, the large scale presence of these industrial minerals is not a secret to any Government and Military person who has served in the north and southeast of the Nation, but for as long as KANU remained in power, serious government intentions to begin exploitation never went beyond the wishful expression of it. The defeat of KANU and a new political face allowed this consideration to occupy center stage in our Strategic Planning and leading to the first phase being the expansive and expensive rearmament of our Military Forces which is key to this planning. You will no doubt constate that since the KANU Defeat, Kenya has surprisingly stumbled from one calamitous event after another, almost as if events were choreographed and puppeteered, while our erstwhile Western Friends speak from both sides of their mouth on every occasion and every subject. I think that thinking persons must question events as they happen particularly what benefits is gained by the other players outside our national drama – the socalled International community.
I think you are being alarmist Ole Nkarei. The DRC has already given unfereted access to its mines to the Chinese who are at this very moment developing that country at a very fast rate.
Yes the western imperial ideology still exists but i doubt it is as evil as you point it out to be.
They have alot of investments in the country starting from safaricom all the way to beach hotels and universities.
Lastly how does rearmament in Kenya prevent them from achieving their aims. They can destroy our whole military with one F22 Raptor.
So please be more objective and let us stop blaming the west for everything as though they are God Like.
IZZO when chris murungaru dramatically cancelled the Landrover resupply / refitting tender and “voted East”, and the police force received landcruisers instead, the largest Rover factory in Britain closed down inside a year, with the loss of approximately 2500jobs. Rover subsequently went into merger to salvage itself, and other related events also followed consequently. The short of this is that the greatest spur to economic growth is government expenditure since Government is the largest corporate body in any country with the most money. IN the West, Government spending revolves around their Defense Industries, which survive only because of an intricate and expansive export policy to ensure consumption of the Products beyond domestic. It is a warped Subsidies regimen that they operate, and millions of their people depend on these Defense Industries. Any abrupt changes in traditional client-market result in substantive disruption in their National Balance, and are treated as hostile actions by friendly governments. Hence responses are similarly couched and intended to restablish the status quo of supply prior to the disruptions. All manner of methods are used including their pliant Media that dishes out persistent disinformation to a gullible international population. Therefore there are no contradictions in my earlier posting regarding the T-72 and the MVFaina drama, I reckon.
Karanja. Kenya’s threat matrix has never been and will most probably never be the West. I dont consider it likely that Kenya should enter into hostile action against the British or the Americans all. All wars in african are basically proxy wars, initiated and financed for one reaon or another by Western Interests, and if you are unaware of this fact I think you need to look again. Kenya’s rearmament is to develop an aggressive deterrent in the event that exploitation of our industrial minerals should ignite a proxy war or sorts – and this is not beyond imagination even to some civilian type like you. Were these equipment sourced from our traditional Western Suppliers, not a wimp would have been heard by anyone outside government and military circles. Lastly I must debunk you and others from this absurd notion that this time and place suddenly those that enslaved and dehumanised us for centuries have somehow transformed themselves to be our defenders against ourselves. We have not yet buried all the victims of the atrocious savagely of our war of independence, mate!!
Karanja, the chinese are not doing philanthropic work in the DRC, mate!! There are there for the same reasons the Americans have been there for the last fifty years. To be there, the Chinese have had to place a whole state-of-the-art newest Carrier Group in the Indian Ocean for the first time ever, and begun firstly by encircling the DRC with Economic postings in Countries not distant from the DRC that emphatically declarec their strategic interests to all interested and competing parties – read the West!! Whileas I am not claiming the Chinese are any better, the very fact of thinking outside the DRC Traditional Box is general reason for optimism for the DRC people.
Give it a cautious chance,friend, eh?
Even if what you allege is true. We already know we are getting better business deals from the Chinese. I dont see how we can be exploited again unless offcourse we fight our silly tribal wars.
You seem to have a disdain for civilians, dont forget we pay you to protect us so you better do your job and so it well.
If you want to solve this African problem of being exploited all the time. The simplest thing is to connect a railway line from mombasa to lagos through Kigali with interconnecting lines to all major African capitals.
Also adding a single east african currency to replace the dollar will be a wise move. However our corrupts leaders are too busy stealing to think of such a plan.
God come down and save us from these leaders.
You are shockingly simplistic in your prescriptive ideas, which disparage serious discussion on the incredible challenges aired here with such carelessly banding-about of correct-talk. Your blog site has similar quality. How do those silly suggestions you have given at all respond to the queries you rhetorically posed? I give up.
Those are very hard punches on Karanja. Nkarei, be a bit gentler on the fela. You are killing an innocent chap. I guess his point is, there are no guarantees that, with our polarized leadership, that rearming will be of help. we might turn the arms agst each other – with or without external input – instead of “the enemy from outside”. Perhaps, very focused leadership is what will get us out of the morass we are in.Not chaps who take kickbacks at every opportunity.In other words, roughly, we ourselves constitute say 60% of our “threats”.40% is the west/others. But you seem to imply the west/other make up 60% of our problems, & we our only fault is 40%.
Dont worry IZZO i can take care of myself. Nkarei has resorted to his Maasai aggresiveness. He should know i have the blood of both my Maasai ancestors and mau mau freedom fighters i am not intimidated in any way whatsoever!!!
I think Nkarei being a soldier views everything as a Zero sum game.
We need partnerships with west because they have the technology and knowledge and should we need to buy there equipment once in a while let us do so to enhance partnerships. I doubt they would go to all those lengths to establish control over the aforesaid African markets.
The west is not as united as everyone seems to beleive just 60 years ago they massacred themselves in the WW2 killed 100 million during the War time alone. So dont make it seem Black and White
Our enemies are the corrupt elite who play tribe against tribe when we are all one.
Another the west is dying off at an alarming rate. By 2050 Africa will have double the population of the West .
China in its own interests is helping us stand on our feet and what we need to do know is educate as many people as possible.
Surely God is in the side of those who are humble and call out his name.
jambo guys I was caught with shuli shuli zaujenzi wa taifa. i can see kura ya maoni was floated against that Asian guy. i had some question which were to nail him sincerely. the authenticity of the TWR list that he posted. .like what izzo asked. And Ati the Usa brought the MiG29 secretly and nobody knows it but him. Mshenzi sana. i think that guy came here under the blessing of Nairobi chronicle ,but this again is my assumption.
Tom Pic za east African airforces i forward the to Nairobi chronicle around a month ago.
i would like to welcome Karaja and would like to inform him to be updated about the current affairs or you might end up in a point where “you can’t see the forest for the trees”
let me go thro, the blog and see where i can jump in.
.ati the MiG could not dogfight the F-5 because it was slow moving. then every country should have a slow moving Biplane for dogfight defense. Am trying to imagine 1 guy can run faster then the other but faster guy is having trouble in catching the slow guy. the russia had to save face after testing the F-5 with a statement.
on the BvR missile technology it is an application that can be installed in a F-5. Bora pesa zetu tuu kwani nini?. kenya has more advance missile technology upgrade, manned, maintained and can be used anytime at a turn of the Key and a push of button. the missile systems down in mtongwe are more then x3 in price and technology then BvR system that operates in 2x2m area of a fighter. What am saying we have the expertise and have proved themselves
i feel sad to see that guys think that the BvR is a difficult missile for the country. i guess guys haven,t had of the missile depot at Mombassa
Now,this is unacceptable. Nairobi Chronicle, where have you been hiding the said photos? for a whole month?
IZZO – I stand correct, mate. Just that some of these arm-chair strategist do sometime go overboard giving opinions that only expose a thin lack of grasp of complicated matters Military. But you are spot on that a blog that is inflexible in the expression of all shades of opinions will not add much to the general debate furnished there in. Karanja, – please keep blogging, tis your right.
Risasi, welcome back, and we look forward to reading of you – but the dogfight with FIJI ended when you splashed him smack into the Oldonyo Sabuk Hill – see his debris all over the hill,man?
“””And Ati the Usa brought the MiG29 secretly and nobody knows it but him.”””
Everyone knows about it including izzo & acig. Only people who are blinded by fanboyism can’t seem to understand that simple fact.
“””.ati the MiG could not dogfight the F-5 because it was slow moving. then every country should have a slow moving Biplane for dogfight defense. Am trying to imagine 1 guy can run faster then the other but faster guy is having trouble in catching the slow guy. the russia had to save face after testing the F-5 with a statement. “””
Oh god.. what part “slow speed combat” didn’t you get? The Mig-23 was made to fight in slow speed combat.. meaning combat taking place in slow speeds, whereas clearly it was designed for high speed. If it used it’s full engine power then it would just climb and dive on F-5’s ass. F-5 can’t climb and can’t turn into the turn circle of the mig due to low energy. Also that is precisely what would happen if you fight a propeller with a jet powered fighter. A propeller with a straight un-swept wing has unrivalled low speed maneuverability, but a jet fighter would just circle around with it’s high speed even though it’s turn radius is high, or use potential energy(climb and dive) to defeat the slow moving propeller. This is the reason why there aren’t propeller fighters around.
“””i feel sad to see that guys think that the BvR is a difficult missile for the country. i guess guys haven,t had of the missile depot at Mombassa”””
I don’t know if it is difficult or not to acquire in future, but Kenya doesn’t have a BVR capability now.
“””This fella FIJI simply gets my goat up, with his condescending production that seeks to overwhelm with thunder without substance neither fire!!”””
Are you blind or are you just ignorant?
Mr fuji
This is Fanboy again. what you have been posting in this blog are your assumption. What you feel and think is true might not always necessary be it .I would like to see the authenticity of the following.
1. Your TWR list.
2. the only thing the Russia copy from the F-5 was its cockpit lay out
3.The dog fights between the MiGs and the F-5 was at low speed.
Because Wikipedia states that “the Russians acknowledged the F-5 was a very agile aircraft and at some speeds and altitudes better than the MiG-23M”
From my understanding this statement means.” The F-5 was very agile compared to the MiGs and better then the MiGs in some speeds and altitude.” As simple as that. you say its only in low speed that the F-5 was better.
i.e show me websites that backs this 3 assumptions you posted on the blog.
“””This is Fanboy again. what you have been posting in this blog are your assumption. What you feel and think is true might not always necessary be it.”””
Assumptions? Assumptions are done when there are no facts/proofs around, Risasi the fanboy. Mathematics, physics, ACIG, Rockwell and other websites are not assumptions.
“””Your TWR list.”””
The empty weight and thrust is already given and is a fact, so just take the loaded weight of 3505kgs and calculate for yourself if you don’t believe the list. If you don’t believe the empty weight and thrust in that list then all you have to do is check wiki:
“# Powerplant: 2× General Electric J85-GE-21B turbojet
* Dry thrust: 3,500 lbf (15.5 kN) each
* Thrust with afterburner: 5,000 lbf (22.2 kN) each”
“# Empty weight: 9,558 lb (4,349 kg)”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
“””the only thing the Russia copy from the F-5 was its cockpit lay out”””
What else is there to copy. If the Russians copied the F-5 then Mig-29(and Su-27) would have low set wings, not have a blended wing-fuselage, will have a wing undercarriage and shitty engines.
“””The dog fights between the MiGs and the F-5 was at low speed.
Because Wikipedia states that “the Russians acknowledged the F-5 was a very agile aircraft and at some speeds and altitudes better than the MiG-23M”
From my understanding this statement means.” The F-5 was very agile compared to the MiGs and better then the MiGs in some speeds and altitude.” As simple as that. you say its only in low speed that the F-5 was better.”””
What? How can you understand it like that when clearly Mig-23’s speed is mach 2.4 while F-5 is just 1.6. Read the wiki quote. It clearly says the Mig-23s were designed for HIGH SPEED missile attacks. I have pointed it before many many MANY times, and you are still failing to understand it…. How are you going to catch an opponent while you have poor TWR/energy and speed, even though your maneuverability is better(like a propeller against a jet fighter/ or a extreme agility of a propeller Japanese Zero against less agile U.S propeller planes)? Like I said, Mig-23’s top speed is mach 2.4, F-5 is just 1.6 – almost a mach difference. Also it can climb faster than a F-5 and can dive into F-5’s behind at it’s own leisure, how can you catch it in a vertical climb and match its high altitude? F-5’s max altitude is 15,800m while Mig-23 can reach 18,500 m. That’s almost a 3 Km height difference!! It’s simple physics which is driving the nations to develop more and more powerful engines to have a good TWR/energy.
Fuji
lets leave out assumption. Give hard/soft copy proves.
1. I have checked on ACIG and Rockwell website as you requested and nothing pops up. post the web links that show such similarity or calculation .
2. on the F-5 engine data you have posted I have tried all ratio and calculation and nothing come close to the 0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II in you list.
3. it stupid to take the power of an engine in ration of 3505 kg of fuel. this is not In representative of the entire weight of the aircraft of which the engine would push.
this the right way of calculating TWR and the results are not any where closer to your list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio#Calculation
your posting are not even assumptions. There fabricated lies to suit you talk.
By the way you have never told us which country you hail from.
Make your point Mr. FIJI, and let is percolate if there is sense to your point. Cannot ram your opinions down people’s throats, friend. And you have been quiet expressive, really, as to have been persuasive. Give it a rest now.
very very intresting blog spot …. for those with more than just opinion on the geo politics of our region thanks for the information . ole nkarei im sure im not the only one intrested in hearing about about your incursion into the drc and the goings on that are not in the news … also you mentioned about the llemi triangle and you were abit vague and threw in some military jargon that threw off what you were trying to say ….. from a military perspective what is kenyas position on the llemi triangle and in all threat assesments coming from the north .. should there be in incursions into the llemi triangle would that be considered and thus protected as kenyan sovereign land or is this a grey area as far as ownership . and finally … in relation to the said minerals in northern kenya and to a larger part the horn of africa … are we just talking about oil or are there other proven signifcant mineral . thanks . id appreciate feedback from anyone with factual or well though out ideas . thanks .
Hallo and welcome Spinell. And yes, I have been a bit remise on my promise on the ITURI / NORTH KIVU, but I am working to get clearance to share in any quantity. I am certain you realise how ideal this sort of blog is for dissemination of info both credible and not so credible – if you know what I mean. Soon as I get past this, I will post whatever bits will pass. The ILEMI is a straightforward matter, though, its ownership beyond doubt and supported by the International conventions and law. The value of discord is now purely diversionary. Kenya’s claim is therefore actionable and all justifications applicable in the use of force to secure this claim. More later, mate.
IIZZO, I cant let this query you asked me go unanswered -“why did that american navy spokeman keep saying that the tanks were destined for GoSS, contradicting the kenyan position on the matter.The position they took contradicts your theory. How do you explain the objective of their statements?”
I gather that either you are Military or Intelligence. And if you are either, I am sure you will know that Counter-Intelligence avoids complicated Legend-building, seeking to build the Legend around a provable Truth. The further you stray from this Provable Truth, the greater the chances your Disinformation Strategy may unravel. No one is better at Disinformation than the American Military, and no one better at using the Media for this purpose. How else is it that 160000 Iraqis have died since 2001 and this has not generated any intelligent retrospective debate with the American People? Or the Slaughter the American Forces are perpetrating in Afghanistan without any moral backlash of the American People? So that the MVFIANA sting was a chereographed play of complex and numerous pieces, each of them dependant on the other, and triggering the animation of others. The truth is never the currency here, but the interpretation of Policy that answers to strategic interest of the Americans. Dismiss the Navy Spokesmans gibberish for just that. Buy the way, precisely because the term GoSS is ambivalent in definition (Kenya or South Sudan), ensured the success of Kenya’s Counter-strategy to get those Tanks into Kenya – that is before the MVFIANA Hijack blew the entire purchase up. We banked exactly on this and I think did a damn fine job at it, IZZO! Something to be proud of, eh?
somewhere on this blog someone mentioned the other east african countries are playing catch up in terms of rearming and building military capacity . can anyone comment on what kenyas projected response is ….. are we looking to maintain military supremacy in the region thus up the arms race or are we just looking to maintain the capacity to deter foreign aggression .
on oil in northern kenya/offshore … ole Nkaire i have seen u mention “information within govt and military circles ” that attests to the presence of significant oil reserves . can you give any more information on the available evidence or is everyone going by the loperot discovery and the data that suggests the presence of hydro carbons and ofcourse upcoming drill .
in 2007 kenya army officers were touring the US trying to build training capacity to help train a ranger battalion in the process being formed . can anyone comment on how far the formation of this battalion has come since 2007 .
Spinell – full disclose of what may still be classified data on as open site as this just aint gonna happen, mate – I aint no pilgrim,friend. On certain matters at the least, generalities must rule, and your demand for specifics must also be reciprocal. Gimme an Email address for direct communication?
i completely understand ole nkarei …. my email is spinell250@gmail.com ………. i would greatly appreciate if you could over my above posts and give me all the information you can without compromising yourself or national security . eagerly awaiting .
Spinell – you must be kindred. And thanks. I will make contact, and we can get to explore what is and is not.
i’ll give some credit to Nkarei for being somewhat informed about military matters but on the other hand he dwells on conspiracy theories that according to his wildest imagination are orchestrated by the west.First,that kenya has reserves of oil and the west got its eyes on it is utterly ridiculous.U.s.a and western countries have an aggressive policy as we speak to abandon oil as a source of energy in any form by 2020 be it gosoline and as a resident of the U.S i can see it with my eyes,the new electric cars,new solar panels and wind turbines replacing generators that use oil.As a matter of fact Obama run on a platform of making the u.s.a fuel independent because according to him “we pay billions of dollars to the dictators in the middle east instead of developing alternative sources at home.” Quoting another U.S senator, “we in the U.S should have abandoned oil years ago and leave it to stone age and nomadic countries like kenya and tanzania.” All am saying is that all is out for you to see and this T 72 and other theoris are simply diverions and cheap material thats on sale to those who buy any junk.
Used to wonder at the “uncle tom” label and how it was possible to be factual. But reading from Spearhead, I amazed at just how a few year of proximity to Western Culture indoctrinates supposed intelligent and educated rational Africans to the point of complete self denial -a typical “Uncle Tom” syndrome. And you wonder that Africans slaughter Africans at the behest of foreign Interests in the Congo, Angola, Mozambique, Rwanda, Burundi, Nigeria, Guinea, Ivory Coast, Senegal, Chad and Sudan!! And that we still have dinosaurs like Kagame, Meles and their ilk touted I(again by the West) as the best leadership coming from African – with 6million Africans Dead in the Great Lakes Region alone in the past six years as a direct consequence of Kagame’s murderous and parochial regime!! How shall we Afrikans ever emancipate ourselves from this perpetual condemnation to damnation if we cannot see beyond the usual, tired platitudes forever churned out by successful Western Governments? How is it possible that an educated African equates Western Interests with his African Interests? Where indeed is the convergence? How does your slaver become simultaneously your saviour? Indeed can one define the terminology “International Community” beyond the criteria of Caucasian identification? I am sadden to read Spearhead’s post – It is not about being a conspiracy theorist as Spearhead thinks, but a belated call to critically examine all traditional popular hypothesis by the simple basis of identifying the essential and clear point of departure of the all participants – what is their critical interest?. African village chiefs sold their African brothers to slavery, using arguments that are very much akin to those expressed by Spearhead in this blog. Who will save the gullible hapless Africanl!!
“”” I have checked on ACIG and Rockwell website as you requested and nothing pops up. post the web links that show such similarity or calculation .”””
I was talking about Air-Air kills and BVR when talking about those websites.
“””on the F-5 engine data you have posted I have tried all ratio and calculation and nothing come close to the 0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II in you list
3. it stupid to take the power of an engine in ration of 3505 kg of fuel. this is not In representative of the entire weight of the aircraft of which the engine would push.
this the right way of calculating TWR and the results are not any where closer to your list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio#Calculation
your posting are not even assumptions. There fabricated lies to suit you talk..”””
Again with your fabricated lie nonsense just because you can’t calculate, and it doesn’t suit your beloved F-5. The wiki link clearly says it is obtained by dividing thrust by weight. For F-5 the calculation is 10,000lbf / (9558 + 7729 lbs)
Fuel and weapons load is 3505 kgs =7729 lbs.
“””By the way you have never told us which country you hail from.”””
Why? I already told you I’m from asia/asian descent. I come from a country where neither mine nor my neighbors/enemies country operate F-5 in the past nor the present nor in the future.
. I asked for the authenticity of the TWR list, a soft/hard copy from a website and you posted this….
Assumptions? Assumptions are done when there are no facts/proofs around, Risasi the fanboy. Mathematics, physics, ACIG, Rockwell and other websites are not assumptions
And when you realized that I checked the above website and found out you were lying you changed to…….. Fuji, on October 17th, 2009 at 9:08 pm Said:
I was talking about Air-Air kills and BVR when talking about those websites
I thought you had out grown those tactics.Take your time to understand the questions before answering
So for the benefit of doubt I will ask you again the same question in simplified English.
Copy and paste the website link, if they are any that use 3505kg factor of fuel + weapon to arrive to TWR.
I guess the answer is they is no such list and nobody uses 3505kg ratio to arrive at a TWR. It only exist in you mind and nowhere else. Otherwise I challenge to be a man enough and produce a website.
The right formula is: Thrust of the engines / Aircrafts weight full of fuel
A true ratio.
It so absurd to use 3505kg factor of fuel+weapon as a ratio for all fighter what so ever it size are. For instance taking the F-15K as an example it carries 6100kg of fuel let alone weapons. almost x2 more then your silly 3505fuel+weapon factor. so with 3505kg of fuel and weapons your saying the F-15K should go into battle in quarter tanks full with bullets and white handkerchief as it weapons. You clear don’t know what you talking about. And if you do know, produce a website that second you list and 3505kg ratio calculation.
“””I thought you had out grown those tactics.Take your time to understand the questions before answering”””
With a fan boy like you around, I was just being cautious. You would even say everything was an assumption to fulfill your F-5 fantasies.
“”” So for the benefit of doubt I will ask you again the same question in simplified English.
Copy and paste the website link, if they are any that use 3505kg factor of fuel + weapon to arrive to TWR.
I guess the answer is they is no such list and nobody uses 3505kg ratio to arrive at a TWR. It only exist in you mind and nowhere else. Otherwise I challenge to be a man enough and produce a website.
The right formula is: Thrust of the engines / Aircrafts weight full of fuel
A true ratio.”””
So finally you saw the calculations are accurate, and now you are changing your tune to questioning the authenticity of 3505 kgs. Once a fanboy always a fanboy, he would never give up his fanboy fantasies. hahaha If you had reading skills you would’ve noticed many TWRs. In the same Wiki page you see F-15’s TWR for light, nominal and full fuel loads, and also it generally mentions full take off weight TWR. And the full fuel load TWR which wiki borrowed from http://www.fighterplanes.tk website, that website is displaying the TWR for 3505 kgs as clearly unbiased & biased respectively(since a comparison has to be done equally without any bias). So there you have the website you were looking for. And F-15’s larger fuel tank does not mean it has to to be filled with full fuel. If you fill it with 2.5 tonnes of fuel & 1 tonne of weapon with a external fuel tank, it would fly just fine and when the fight begins it can just drop the tank. Infact F-15’s TWR of 1.6 it was flying with even less fuel. Also Mig-19 can even carry 3505 kgs, but if calculated it’s twr is greater than F-5 because of it’s engines. TWR mainly concentrates on its engines, if you see the list, the difference between the engines and empty weight is greater for fighters above F-5, hence the TWR advantage those fighters have.
I can’t believe you’ve missed all that but you only saw the full fuel TWR . How is that even possible? Are you drunk or are you on drugs, fanboy?
Responding to again outrageous allegations implied here by Nkarei about africans being brain washed and the west shoving their interests down our throats,i’ll be the one to tell you that even here in america black americans blame their misfortunes to uncle tom.An african will never solve his owm problems and when they slaughter each other in numbers,again the west is to blame and america,britain and france are to blame.the main question is,if you africans were not dumb enough,would you dare to slaughter yourselves on behalf of uncle tom?Dont you africans have the brain to manipulate the west to slaughterer themselves?Again all am saying is that its the way you wonna look at it.If your goverment allocates massive water catchment areas to some african fools and the land goes dry,again the west has planted something in our airspace at night to stop african rain!Ask youself why some countries in africa like Botswana are doing so well! Why is egypt though not run by africans doing so good itself being a desert?Nkarei the soldier is a man who remotely knows some planning but Nkarei the so called elite is a dwarf and a nomadic blogger!NO BAD FEELINGS.
Thank you, Spearhead. Proves my point exactly. No need for a riposte really.
Out.
Nkarei whats your point?Did you not argue that the T 72s and other obsolete weapons on mv faina are meant to protect the supposedly oil reserves that the west reserved somewhere in Kenya once oil runs out in the middle east?did you not argue that all the misfortutunes facing africa are perpetuated by the west?did you not argue that 6 millions africans have mssacred themselves on behalf of uncle tom?did you not argue that the master who enslaved us cannot be our saviour?
my point is this,if an old fashioned african commits suicide he will probably blame it on the west and some uncle tom perpetuated theory.Africans were enslaved fine.we were colonised fine and if you cannot live with that its too unfortunate.that was then.we cannot keep on blaming the west and nurturing some wild imaginations that the west is always up to something.like those old T 72s and those wild theories………..what is absolete T 72 supposed to protect 20 years from now when the west supposedly comes to exploit our oil?Can it even save an african from himself? Call me naive or any other term in your dictionary but ill tell you for a fact that an African is better of with a white man riding on his back.like ocampo for example.I admire Nkarei tenacity in his convictions no matter how much old school he is but ill tell you africans that you have to direct your energies from blaming the west.To the contrary the west has always saved you from yourselves!
As for the reason why 160,000 iraqs and 5000+ american soldiers have died without any outcry,first its important to note that most of those iraqs are victims NOT of american imperialism but of fellow iraqs who are fanatics of religious ideology that has plagued this part of the world for so long.its the same problem in palestine that defies any known phenomenal whereby suicide bombers engage in this callous and descipicable acts of killing every one within their range of this weaponized self and regardless of their just course to fight for their own country,you cannot tell me that this is the best way to deal with this.Those of us who have lived here in the U.S knows that Americans believe in serving and 5000 dying is not in vain for this as americans will tell you is a nation forged not in talikg the lesser and easy road but a higher difficult roads of war so as the world can be a better place.If not for America countries like Germany,Japan and iraq that wonna own the world would have done it long time ago.Someone has to take a gun and fight!
Your world view is astounding! I find no kind words in response. I will let others to make the effort if they find any energy and gain in doing so. But Man, you are quite something! And by the way, your understanding of the meaning of “Uncle Tom” exposes your literacy level – would be advisable to research on it some more.
I am redeploying next week, and therefore will finally give this blog some peace. Good luck.
Nrarei my brother i know i have something to learn from you but certainly it won’t and will never be the defination of uncle tom.With all the intent and good will that “uncle tom” is supposed to imply,i mean the rescue he is supposed to offer,you shoot yourselves in the foot when you praise and beg him for all the relieve and then turn around and blame him for world problems.This is distorted logic.However,just like ive maintained here and elsewhere,when an african becomes a manly man,a cow will give birth to a hen.Its something that will never happen.
I know you have no kind words for me,a man who has taken you behind the burn and told you what other africans could not tell you-the truth.
I admire you and trust you with the Gun and i wish you the best in your deployment.By the way i also admire your english command.Not many soldiers can do that.
…………………………………..and by the way if you wonna talk about literacy level,i welcome this debate for i’ve always made to believe that soldiers have nothing beyold high school carriculum.Convince me that you are the master of perfect knowledge.
Spearhead,Go to the min of defence website, key people, to get a general feel of the education levels of the military of key people.
http://www.mod.go.ke/?page_link=people
Also research abit more CGS General Tonje’s reforms in the military, which included pegging future promotions to academic performance, among other things,requiring all officers to undergo university level education if they are to be legible for promotions.
In a nutshell, the reforms envisaged that beginning in July 2012, no Kenyan Major will for instance be promoted to Lt.-Colonel without a Masters of Science degree in Military Science. The reforms were initiated before yr 2000.Thus,your impressions about the military are not up to date.
Izzo, thanks mate. Silence of the Lambs, is what I am now.
………………………….there is a big difference between what the envisioned reforms harbor and the situation on the ground.Am not implying that we dont have educated men in our millitary all am saying is that perhaps most of them especially the foot soldiers know nothing beyold mole concept.And i insist perhaps!What is the literacy level of soldiers on the barracks and not the one you foresee once the reforms are in place?
Hey! What happened to the issue driven high quality blog I I have been following all along? Its degenrating into personalities now.
i agree with you ” fly on the wall … spear head any ignorant uninformed kenyan/african can articulate what you are trying to ! but things/the world is not that black and white and u need to study the grey in the world because from they way you talk it seems you havent .
THE SPEAR HEAD,
“By the way i also admire your english command.Not many soldiers can do that….”, WHAAAAAAAT ?
Your statement above bothers me, Did you (do you…) know that English is the official language in kenya and Kiswahili the national language ? ama you meant in other countries ? have you noticed that soldiers that are currently being recruited are very well educated ? have you ever attended ANY recruitment sessions in kenya in any part of the country ? YOU WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THAT COMMENT coz You’d be shocked mpaka ushangae ! HEBU RESEARCH ON LITERACY AND ENROLLMENT LEVELS IN KENYA then review your comment once more. as far as the education sector in kenya is concerned i could tell you soooo much coz after all am a technical teacher !!!!!!!!!!!
THE SPEAR HEAD,
oooh………………guess what, i have my former students serving the kenyan forces i.e MAB has 1 male, langata has 1 female, 15 KA mariakani has 1 male, 20th para has 1 male, Navy mtongwe has 5 males and finaly NSIS has 1 male !!!!! BTW 1 LEFT MAB and joined USAF as a logistics officer and is CURRENTLY in germany. i know what they were capable of then and believe thay are good enough to serve their motherland as soldiers in whatever capacity they are deployed to ….. and am one very proud teacher as far as every student i have ever taught is concerned THEY ALL SPEAK WONDERFUL ENGLISH AND DO DELIVER, 🙂 !
hai microprocessor,
you are all over the map.its not possible to deceiver what you are really saying.i mean you are equating speaking english with being learned and knowledgeable.You also seem to say that being in school is equivalent to being smart.Like you havent heard of educated fools by which most of the Kenyans are anyway.Why do you think the country is so run down yet those running it are educated or as you would say it ,they have been to school? Being to school and grasping the necessary are two different things.
The Spear Head,
Whatever !
Spinell, Microprocessor, have you all yet not heard the saying that quality or lack of it in discussions define people? Responding to this sort of colourless scatterbrained contribution that makes generalised subjective accusations lacking substantiable facts just aint worthy the effort – see to what depth it has driven this blog? I advise you all to put this Speahead fella out of his misery – simply ignore him. The alternative is to be dragged into the mire of the loathesome ignorance he clearly wallows in. Positive Learning after all preceeds from an acknowledgement a of lack of a desired knowledge, which is not manifested in the arrogance of his contribution. Just throw in the towel, and lets get a move on!!
Microprocessor – correct me if I am wrong, isnt the terminology “Uncle Tom’ a derogatory definition for slaves who compromised themselves to please their slavers? Or is it indeed in reference to their slaver? coined during the enslavement of the africans in the USA, and essentially defining the two categories the developmed during the struggle to survive Slavery? Anyone, please?
Republican presidential nominees and Republican convention since the end of the Civil War opposed terrorism against blacks, opposed lynching, opposed denying blacks a real right to vote, and supported equal legal rights for blacks. Republican congresses passed the constitutional amendments that gave blacks freedom, equal rights, and the vote. These congresses also passed the very civil rights laws that allowed blacks to win their first victories in the battle for equal rights. Republican presidents appointed blacks to executive offices.
Democrat platforms and candidates were conspicuously silent on these issues and liberal Democrat icons, like Woodrow Wilson, re-segregated the federal civil service (desegregated by Republican presidents) and fired, en masse, all the blacks in the federal government that he could.
Why then do so many black “leaders” support this political party which has been consistently hateful toward them and which has made them “bought” votes in elections, whose real interests are simply ignored by both political parties because they always vote Democrat?
Southern overlords had both “house slaves” and “field slaves.” Those slaves who lived in the mansion had special, privileged status. This dual status continued in the de facto slavery of blacks after the Civil War. Certain cowardly blacks were left alone and even thrown trinkets, while those blacks who stood up for the rule of law and the principles of equality were lynched, their children whipped to death, their homes terrorized.
Some blacks became “Uncle Toms” and others stood against the evil of Democrat feudal rule. Which brings us to the origin of the use of “Uncle Tom” as a pejorative term. When a black man felt that he could no longer resist racist whites, he did something which black women in the South called “Crossing the Jordan River.”
Such a black man would no longer try to fight for his rights as a man, but instead became an “Uncle Tom” – the downcast, eye-rolling caricature of lazy, shiftless blacks. But what exactly did “Crossing the Jordan River” mean? What act did that signify? What surrender by a black man so enraged black women, whose lives and the lives of their children were surrendered to generations of bigotry? “Crossing the Jordan River” meant that the black man gave up his allegiance to the Republican Party and registered as a Democrat.
Now, that is quality information, M. And many thanks for this. Beyond doubts, then, it is clear that the strident voice that arrogantly touted his supposedly “higher than Army” education and knowledge was illiterate to all intentions and purposes, being a mile wide wrongwith his interpretation of this terminology. This army dude had some inkling of it, at the least, eh??
ole Nkarei,
spinell is perfectly right. wikipedia says of the term thus:
Uncle Tom is a pejorative term for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to white authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation.[1] The term comes from the title character of American writer Harriet Beecher Stowe’s 1852 novel Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Critical and popular views of both the character and the novel have shifted over time,[2] leading to the shift in the term’s use.
In the novel the Uncle Tom character is a Christian martyr, morally superior to his white owners in an antebellum fiction whose subtext was an argument that the institution of slavery was immoral. Numerous adaptations altered the depiction substantially, often rendering him feeble, servile, or a race traitor. These adaptations, along with critical distaste for the original character’s passivity, contributed to the strongly negative connotations of the name in modern popular use…….. etc
as for spear head..i concur with you…he needs no responce. i was pissed off by his insinuations about KENYAN SOLDIERS, some of whom are my former students, some are my bros, friends, …. its like he is still living in the days of my grandfather who was a senior sergeant in the Kings African Rifles. thanx Ole for that tough Love !
Going to the internet and looking up how the term uncle tom was conjured and applied in 17th century and then shoving it down our throat on this blog does not imply anything.Like i told Tom Nkarei,in modern times the term is a reference to the master( in this case is U.s.a) who is purported to answer all our cries ,our savior to rescue us while on the other hand a master who gives tough love by stabbing us on the back by shoving his interests down our guts and deeply caring less and thats the popular connotation of the word.It seems like am dealing with typical soldiers here and in a language that a soldier will uhnderstand,let me tell you who is uncle tom in todays use anhd not the 16th century……………….it is america which in essence takes from us and enslaves the world all in the name of democracy,justice and what have you.if you think am nuts,no doubt an african has ruined hisself and his continent coz of this ignorance.
Icalled you guys old school and you thought i was crazy but now look who is going to the ancient times to define a modern usage of words.come on soldier!
As for the baseless,personal attacks and insults hurled to by Nkarei about being illetrate,when you use those kind of unkind words to people you dont even know,it says more about you than who you are talking about.when you believe that most people are thieves,the underlying effect is that you are a thief yourself.An elder who engages in name calling match with children in the village squire invites a ridicule among himself and i wont be that kind of elder.At least i was couteous enough to acknowledge Nkareis somewhat knowledge on millitary matters.However he is also a man who is alienated by outrageous theories that everything is a broad conspiracy that stagnates the black man and perfects the white man.His world is that if not for the white man like myself the world would be modern and decent.His world is that everything comes out the way whites want it and thats why a large pool of blacks are wallowing in misery.Present to me a different opinion and youll earn my respect.In my world nobody deserves my respect you have to earn it.
At least microprocessor admits the change in the term Uncle term use!
its not polite to comment on someone’s having good English. Of course its spoken well…it was forced down our throat by the west..but we still speak two to three additional languages
LET ME NAIL THE COFFIN OF THIS “UNCLE TOM” DEBATE BY CLARIFYING TWO THINGS.THE ORIGINAL USAGE OF THIS TERM IS AS DESCRIBED ABOVE BY MICROPROCESSOR.SIMPLY IT WAS A BLACK MAN WHO WANTED TO BE A WHITE MANS PET.
ON THE OTHER HAND,THE TERM USAGE EVOLVED AND AS AMERICA BECAME MORE LIBERAL,THE TERM WAS FLIPPED TO MEAN THE WHITES WHO LITERALLY WANTED TO OWN AND CONTRAL THE WORLD.I MEAN THE WHITE MAN WHO WANTED TO MAKE THE WORLD THEIR PET.
WHEN THE U.S.A GOVERMENT ACTED ARROGANTLY LIBERALS SUMMONED IT AS UNCLE TOM TO MEAN AN ARROGANT WHITE MAN OR GOVERMENT.INFACT TODAYS WIDE USAGE IN THE WEST IS IN LINE WITH WHAT SPEARHEAD TRIED TO DESCRIBE THOUGH HE IS A LITTLE OFF THE HOOK AND DELIBERATELY ARROGANT.
TO PUT THIS DEBATE TO REST,YOUR DEFINATION AND UNDESTANDING OF THE TERM IS AS ACTUAL AS YOU WANT IT TO BE DEPENDING WITH TIME AND PLACE.THE GLASS IS EITHER HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY DEPENDING WITH THE WAY YOU JUDGE THINGS.
IN THIS DEBATE,I THINK EVERY ONE IS RIGHT AND IF YOU WONNA MAKE THIS A CHIKEN-EGG QUESTION,YOU TELL ME WHICH CAME FIRST.THIS HAS NO END.
Spearhead. We all express our opinions here, not necessarily to agree, and not even to manifest our intelligence and education. Blanketing hard-serving dedicated professionals as illiterate and dismissively deriding their understanding of intellectual matters as consequent of what you claim is their universally acclaimed lowly education is certainly a Call to War – it insults and belittles thousands of unassuming intelligent dedicated very proud persons whose background in the disciplined forces probably restrains their response to your arrogant posturing in ths blog. Does splattering your neighbour with mud make you any cleaner? All soldiers are trained to sift the real from the abstract. Go to sleep, Mate!! I think I will take a break too.
Seems like the “hot” Kivu story will never go past the censors. Then, before you take your break,at some point,you said you’ve done spectacular espionage things on your potential adversaries. I wonder if you have guarantees that they arent doing the same to you!Sorts of nets off the perceived gains out of your efforts..
Nkarei.First i’ve alot of respect for proffesional armed forces anywhere in the world.Ive not on this blog called them illetrate or used any deragatory term against them.To the contrary, this low life language was introduced here by you.All i said when this conversation started was that it has always been implied that majority of foot soldiers are high school graduates who are steaming with adrenaline and high on steroids. thus an accident looking to happen. I know a lot of soldiers ,i mean regulars,who joined the armed forces after high school thus as hereby stated by me have no higher level of education.This does not imply that they are illetrate.You concluding that and assuming that am talking about soldiers in general is a narrow way of looking at things for i’ve emphasized here foot soldiers.You are a major,aren’t you?Is a major a foot soldier or a commander?I expressed my desire to learn about millitary matters and youve been selfish with the wealth of information you claim to possess.Yet your knowledege is wider than reason,goes further than the waves can take it.Tell me about it.I will be the first to admit that my conversation with reflects youas one of a kind,i mean you express charisma, you seem articulate,firm in your convictions,resolute in your beliefs,ready to stand for something and fall for nothing,a soldier who not only lives for what he takes as his duty but also who is ready to die for it.On the other hand,i fear millitary jagon has distorted your world and made to believe like our grand fathers that underneath,everything that goes wrong is a conspiracy and ealrly warning system and forward array rader has to be turned on.To this effect it becomes self destructive to the point whereby literally if a bird flies above, you are full force on guard shouting orders and all worried that some alien superpower has conspired to dominate your airspace.
Any way,am a man who knows when to quit. I’ve balls of steel that dont allow me to quit but I’ll give up..Even if a bull is born with balls sometimes it gives them up to become a bullock.
IZZO – one last lick at this, Mate!! Exposure and the risks you mention are quite in the fore of mine and others’ mind, I reckon – the sword cuts both ways, and sites like these inform and misinform in equal measure. And this blog might not be ready for the sort of debate substantive disclosure is certain to generate, judging from recent history. So, yes, I am taking some R & R from it for a while, see how the blog matures.
ISSO – By the way, seems everyone uses a nom de guerre (pseudonyms) in this blog. Naturally and desirably so – contributions are anonymous although not necessarily untraceable. You reckon I am any different, mate?
I understand.Agreed on all points raised; i can see where you are coming from,mate.
The professionalism in this thread, and the “updf one”, is exemplary and, it shows a dedicated forum is needed. You could borrow a leaf from Small Wars Council http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/index.php since COINS is “THE” future.
Russian helicopters for NATO’s war in Afghanistan http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/11/mil-091104-rianovosti01.htm
These guys are on facebook!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=102816741528&v=info
Question. How secure (or otherwise), in respect to national security is such a venture?
Guys,
Some of you have deviated and started trading insults. This is boring and will surely kill this blog. Let us all respect the views of everyone whether we agree with them or not. Some people have posted comments which are not necessarily accurate, but this should not result into an insult. We are all here to learn. After all no one can claim monopoly of knowledge. This blog has hitherto been interesting and informative, so let’s not kill it. You will all notice that some people are starting to stay away, hopefully they are cooling off.
There are so many “aviation experts” in this forum! lol!
wow! We cannot even stop kikuyus from killing luos, luos from killing kikuyus, kalenjin from killing kikuyus, and all that post election violence, yet we want to acquire the jets (yes the equaivalent of T-38 still used as a primary trainer at US Airforce e.gbase at Columbus AFB in Mississippi. Astrounauts choice of plane too… therefore a very good jet?)
..we want get the jets to defend kenya from who?
kenya will never fight a war. Migingo is in the state of being invaded as we talk yet the leadership as usual is ASLEEP on the steering wheel …or is it Yoke lol!
Kibaki/Raila/Saitoti V1…..VRotate oh no bird strike, compressor stall..stick shaker Whoop whoop, Kibaki pull up…..whoop whoop pull up……Raila V2…(LOL) thrust lever!…EGT.. whoop whoop …PULL UP …stick shaker … Saitoti retract gear …whoop whoop …TERRAIN… 5y-kenya-post-election contacted the ground.
NTSB Probable Cause : Failure to pre-flight the country during election. Inexperienced Pilot flying unrated a/c. Contributing factor: Impunity.
What is your point?”:
migingo!…………………..migingo!………………migingo! the shortest route to mimingo is through Nakasero,entebbe and finally kampala.our forces are contigent enough to hoist kenyan flag in kampala.lets do it over!
i think kenya needs to upgrade to modern avionics so i think its a wise move
Now where are these guys?
Risasi,Izzo,Partisan,Microprocessor etc.
We are missing your contributions, please come back.
Contribute to what Ole Nkarei, Pain in the ass and myself are debating elsewhere in a related blog.
China is fast gaining ground as a major supplier to the Kenyan military besides Britain and the US. Already we have the Harbin Y-12,W Z-551APC,Z-9 and the WZ-9 attack helicopter.Is this to do with cost or a major shift on supplier to Eastern markets. We saw the T-72 saga although some people claimed the weapons might not have been ours.
tell them fiji tell them. lets be basic to them, or lets go down frm level 4 to 1. comparing mig 29 or su17 to the f5 is like comparing the latest ferari model to an old volkswagen bettle. simple.
i left the airforce in late yr 2000 an some of the F5 flight manuals i used i gave them to my 22yr old nephew who joined the force an made it to the flying school at mab. sad that he might end up in the same cocpit that i first sat on more than 20yrs ago. talk of smithsonian materials.
i spent a whole 2 days following this blog from top 2 bottom.every link posted,every claim made credible or otherwise.personally i think the upgraded F-5 is a match for any aggressor aircraft in our neighbors inventory.true the airframe is nearing its sell by date thats why the acquisition of these birds is a stop gap measure word is even “broke” Zimbabwe is going for the new JF – 17 from china.but anyone with the least combat aviation knowledge knows this new bird is largely in a pre production phase.it will take at least 5 years to make it fully combat capable.and that is what the “new” F – 5s are for. African wars are and for the foreseeable near future will always be fought and won on land.and here ladies is where our strengths lie. Lakini where are those pictures about the East African airforces?
and by the way mike alpha juliet being a recent retiree from our esteemed force you are in effect part of the reserve as such the armed forces act still applies to you. i assume from your vast experience and high rank you should be conversant with chapter 20 of the said act relating to offences against morale.chunga sir lest you land yourself a court martial
Hey “D” – damn right you are, and the Maj knows this too well – if he indeed has served. But you know the saying, that the not all shoulders fit the Uniform. And thanks for filling in for Risasi, who appears to have good AWOL.
Mimi niko bwana I have not gone AWOL masomo ndiyo mingi. Otherwise I can see the blog is very much alive. As for Maj (ret.) shida gani in sharing the same cockpits and manuals with you nephew. On the contrary, provide him with your personal Tiger experiences. Nyinyi ndiyo wazee wetu sio? Let’s keep the colors flying high.
Hey buddy. Welcome back. Was kinda lost without you, mate, on matter aerial. You might want to get right into the mix and field some air-warfare queries with Jasiri – not my craft at all, you know.
Thanks ole Nkarei, i am trying to look for jasiri’s postings but I haven’t found any so far. What his query.
Jasiri posted on the “Kenya Armed Forices Pictures” Post. Lotsa chaps been asking after you, buddy! A great debate swilling about the interface of the three arms of warfare, I think all opinions heavily coloured by which of these one belongs to. Been trying to explain that Combat schools exists primarily to obviate these sort of biaises in Battle Planning and Prosecution, to little avail. Now you need to weigh in with some thunder on how the Airman interfaces with Ground Assault, Air Defence, Mobile Armour and long-range field control. etc. Goodluck.
watu wasidhani ati kwenda vita ni kama cattle russtling ama shootout between cops na majambazi (no offence 2 the boys in blue).planning and executing a successful offensive is alot like a game of chess you have 2 use your strong points 2 counter your opponents strong points while at the same time exploiting his weaknesses.Ole Nkarei na Risasi.it seems to me that both of you have better experience than i do in matters defence.in fact am willing to bet you outrank me na mbali sana.please enlighten us on our neighbouring countries weaknesses and strong points.especially Sudan,Ethiopia and Uganda and how we can take them on with our current resources.
Wasiku tatize D these countries have internal problems and don’t have the strategy to conduct an offensive with Kenya. Let us debt this on the “Kenya Armed Forces pictures” so that I can have a good follow up.
“Wasiku tatize D these countries have internal problems” I find it so hard to believe that the most informative contributor to this blog can be so ignorant. Risasi hebu look at Kenya beyond the barracks for once na uone the we are moving fast towards a claymore. In my opinion we are in more of a mess than Ethiopia, Sudan and Uganda. Unlike them, our troubles are spread countrywide!
How ?
cheki ukabila vile umezidi man. i bet the same thing happens in the military. Cheki wat is happening in rift valley. Ngojeni east african brigade ituokoe 2012. By the way did you way jicho pevu yesterday?
Nepotism is there I don,t dispute it, but I am sure if the military is to be tested it will come out as one fist in order to discredit the prevailing stereotypes talks ,for vanity sakes and resultant continuous careers trainings above all. This is a professional force. Our soldiers eat and live from their salaries. It’s a career, and the soldiers will carry its operations to the highest decree and abilities
I told you to look at Kenya beyond the barracks risasi. the general population is virtually being held together by the international boundaries that define Kenya. is all you see a beyond the border situation? The Kenya you know, love and “protect” is being eaten from the inside. I know you’ll say internal affairs is a matter of the police but for once would you people think of what will happen if the police fail, coz they have failed already. Do you want to be deployed outside the barracks in armoured vehicles and gunships to scare away threats when you could have dealt with them before the issue exploded? 2007 muliitwa and it was only bows and arrows, 2012 na ma A.K mutado? I know you’ll say “the military has the capability to deal with any threat bla bla bla….” but do you have to wait until 1300 Kenyans are killed ndio mujue you are needed? Constitutionally you are mandated to protect the lives and livelihoods of Kenyans. Since you know the police are as competent as tthe Somali national police i think it’s time for the D coy to start some black op’s. Fyekeni leaders wa hii issue before your friends, bro’s, sisters, wives, children and parents are caught up in this. Risasi, being loyal to the ruling elite doesn’t mean you are a more patriotic Kenyan than others, being loyal to the country does. What is good for the country isn’t necessarily good for the leadership. live up to the name SOLDIER and defend your people when they need you. They need you now. Alternatively you can hide behind the barracks fence na muconduct war games pounding fictional enemies when the real enemy is within us.
I am looking at Kenya beyond the barracks, and what I see is “internal affairs Docket” as you mentioned. Ok the police might have failed as you say, but you as a mwanainchi what have you done to reverse this situation? Issues of policing can be address to the Office of the President nearby you or the police Hotlines if you are will to contribute. I am not the right person to give any brilliant domestic plans. In 07’ the armed forces went out to bring order and not to fight the mwanainchi. Part of their objectives was to clear the Kenya highways off barricades and not running battles in slams with civilians. Therefore D coy’s executions shouldn’t be done to fellow Kenyans, believe me. ½ a squadron can create havoc to an entire armed infantry unit . just like a small stone inside your Boots, they will bruise you until you get read of them. They weren’t even launch against the armed Sabaot Land Defence Force (SLDF). It wouldn’t be a responsible act to unleash them against fellow countrymen. This will be reducing these professional boys to militia standard.
I would love to hear your contingency plan between an elite force vs an AK-47 wielded civilian.
point of correction;
Constitutionally the armed forces are mandated to protect the lives and livelihoods of Kenyans against foreign aggressions.
“I would love to hear your contingency plan between an elite force vs an AK-47 wielded civilian” i believe your understanding of my argument is that we unleash the D coy on every gun wielding Kenyan out there. That’s not my point. My point is, w unleash the D coy on the main suppliers, we nip the bud before it blooms. If the main suppliers are decommissioned then the para’s can move in and start a mop up op against those with illegal firearms. get it now?
What you are talking about is Called ORGANISED CRIME. “Guns and hit men for hire” among other organized misdemeanor. I think its very much present in this country and the trade thrives well when there is rivalry among the society. If you watch the news of late you would hear “A business man was killed and the gang escapes with his car and money……” what we see on the news is just 10% if you include the small, small business men that are killed in mtaani and the likes of River Road
I feel that most of the times these are business men killing their rivals. Criminals are paid to get rid off competitors. Paid crimes or what is largely known as Organized Crime. Because the hit men are still underpaid, they do tend to steal from their victims. The robbing of the assassinated victim makes the scenarios looking like a violent robbery. Occasionally we do hear and see the Classic type assignations where the victim’s financial possession isn’t robbed. The dust hasn’t still cleared yet. It’s still a mixture of both hooliganism and organized crime. In present days the former is still taking the presidency in most occasions. its just a matter of time until we will start seeing definite patterns and crystal clear picture of organized crime. These are still matters of internal affairs and a matter of policing and investigations.
I don,t think the police have established a unit to deal with such crimes. Again these are just my sentimental and I stand to be corrected.
Hey Risasi and Jasiri,
I think both of you are going off topic. We are supposed to be discussing matters military. Leave crime and such like things to the police.
On a separate note welcome back Risasi, you have away too long.
Jasiri you appear knowledgeable same as Risasi, Ole Nkarei,Mr ‘D’ and a few others. Let us learn from you all.
Most western countries have laws prohibiting the deployment of their militaries inside their territories to deal with civil matters eg the Posse Comitatus act in the US our military SOP (standard operating procedure) and traditions are modelled upon some of these military powers in many areas including aid to civil authority. in any case instances where the military can be deployed within our borders are clearly defined in the armed forces act cap 199. elimination of crime bosses is not one of them. and i know the guys who were deployed late in 2007 n early 2008 had clear orders to open up the blocked highways without further escalating the already volatile situation they were only to engage in self defence.if you are ignorant you will call it cowardice but i call it proffesionalism.kufuata sheria ambayo ni kazi yetu kulinda.
“D”, then i think someone has to do the domestic work for you. I am not ready to see our soil drenched in blood of innocent Kenyans when deep down i know something could have been done.
Jasiri you are right someone should do the work.but not the armed forces. a special police branch maybe NCIS i think in the past ilikuwa job ya special branch i cant comment on that political stuff lakini i know in my heart we would never let this great country go down the drain we swore to protect it from enemies internal and external i just dont see any enemies yet just misguided souls who mwananchi has the ability to deal with the way he sees fit.
Guys an idea just hit me. What happens when you put an F-18 engine(f404-GE-400) into a Chengdu Jian-10 fighter. Won’t you have an impressive fighter? Higher thrust to weight ratio coupled with the J-10’s canards should be able to give you impressive maneuverability. Remember the F-5’s baby brother the F-20?
am no aircraft expert but am sure there are lots of things to consider like the strength of the airframe vis a vis the weight of the engine.but the n again am not an aircraft expert.however if it works it sounds like one hell of a bird.
“D” If this bird can take on a MiG-29(AL-31F) engine i’m sure it can take on the General Electric engine.
how about while they are at it they give it a whole new radar suit and modify the hardpoints and weapons system to allow it fire the AMRAAMs and sidewinders it would be like the F – 35 without the stealth technology.is iy possible?
Jasiri. You speak and think like you once were in uniform, trained with us, and thought with us. No doubt about that. I and a lot of guys reading your postings feel your frustration and your great love for our country. I think that you are seeking answers like the rest of us, and yur anger at the failure of those responsible for internalisation of our collective National Safety shows clearly. But you must recall that our training is not uniquely physical, but more so psycological, and this is patterned and specific to every particularly outfit that bears arms and whose core duties include using them. So that the AP RDU has a completely different regimen of mind training to their usual cousins stationed in Chiefs Comps country-wide. Or the GSU verses the “blue” Cops in Police stations. Even in different formations of our Armed Forces this differentiations applies, and shows in the manner each interpret their taskings, and deployments. Consequently, calling for us to deploy in a policing role in which we have no mental training in , and no competence, and in which we shall be required to fall back on what “we essentially are” is a most disastrous and depressing prospect. Which would explain why there is no single successful social system that has ever been engineered by the Military anywhere in this world. There are other better, logical and practical experiments that I could propose that would incorporate elements of the Armed Forces, if you are interested in these. I would also caution that posting that border on treasonous subversion may drive this blog to the dogs altogether. Let us keep our exchanges benign ad informative educational and friendly at all times, buddy.
“D”, for the hardpoints and weapons system we could go for Israeli avionics. A lot of countries are developing confidence in the Israelis. as for the radar, a PESA(Passive electronically Scanned Radar) ought to do the trick. a wicked choice would be the N011M of the SU-30MK. then we couple that with FLIR, TV and a laser designator. Hiyo plus the Dash-3 helmet air force want’s to buy will make it the most potent warplane flying the African skies.alfu some ECM capabilty to protect itself. Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a Vigorous Dragon!
ole nkarei, you are wrong on all things except one, I have a DEEP love for this country. I just can’t accept what is happening when i know we can be great. It may surprise you to actually know the man behind Jasiri. But since we see things alike, next time you are in Msa nishtue we do a little R&R
Jasiri what your saying is fine, a good venture and brilliant ideas. Take a fighter and modifying it and you have a unique fighter. But they is something called “End-use-agreement” which binds the buyer and the seller. Jama anakuuzia silaha lakini huna ruhusa ko modify or re-sell them without his consent. And if you do give a good fight and grounds for modifying them, then the items in question will be from his factories. Na bado you can want an item and he can refuse to sell it. Japan was told by the American “although you are our most beloved ally in Asia we will not sell you the F-22 stealth fighter, because whatever technology we sell to you, finds its way into China”
Just like Microsoft Windows, you can only load Ms Word and no other Program for running Documents. They sell you an item but have a say on its usage. This also happened to the Australia air force recently. It had rejected in buying /taking the stealth F-35. Although the F-35 was a Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program by the USA and it allies, Lockheed Martin (USA) has encrypted and locked its softwares. Australia could not therefore modify it at will. Manufactures have a big say in there items. That is why in Kenya the Fc-1 is more favored then the JF-17.
Risasi, what is the difference? I thought the FC-1 and the JF-17 thunder are one and the same thing only that the FCF-1 is exclusively made in China while the JF-17 can be produced also in Pakistan.
i said it and ill say it again i think those newly acquired F – 5s are only temporary. in my view they will be in active duty for 5 – 7 years before acquisition of new jets.honestly as it seems its down to either the J – 10 of J – 17 if them fly boys opt for the vigorous dragons they should look to this site for some upgrade suggestions. they sound exciting.tutakuwa imara angani mara kumi kuliko sasa.ole nkarei hits it spot on on the issue of military intervention to some of these affairs. kudos major.
“But they is something called “End-use-agreement” which binds the buyer and the seller” Risasi, i know of these restrictions but can’t a man dream? Najua the Americans won’t agree to us re-engining a chinese warplane with an American engine. Butoutlinin the what if’s isn’t bad. you say “That is why in Kenya the Fc-1 is more favored then the JF-17.” Lemme correct you, the JF-17 is the pakistani name for the FC-1(FighterChina-1) I think you menat that you think the air force prefers the Jf-17 over the J-10, sio? little wonder, the FC-1 looks almost like an f-5.
“D” i also believe that the extra F-5’s are only a stopgap measure. i’m sure zingine zaja in a few years time, but meanwhile we’ve got to protect ourselves.
sikwa ubaya ,mimi najua na sema nini
jasiri is right about the americans refusing to part with their engines. that is why i admire mossad so much they stole the complete blueprints for the mirage 1 and engineered a completely new aircraft of their own using those same plans and called it the Kfir.maybe the NSIS should steal some plans for the sudanese plane and fix one of ours using juakali techno just to piss em off.
Jasiri.
I will take you up on your R&R invite sooner than you reckon. And I have a pretty good idea who’s behind this jasiri mask, mate, our itinerant paths have crossed couple of time, and for this alone, my advise is keep the clutter down, your profile is easy to make from your posts. A brainstormer-blog is good enough without the “other” bits! i.e the stuff about a kenyan hybrid fighter plane is damn good, and the path along which all Nations now manufacturing their own planes have gone in the past.
hey “d” did the Israelis use the mirage or that MiG-23(?) they stole from Iraq? You raise an important point though. the N.S.I.S should be used to spur economic development, through “acquisition” of relevant technologies. See what the chines did with the J-11 vis-a-vis the SU-27?
Mike Alfa Juliet, don’t be so sure. Lakini seriously don’t forget to radio in Ukija huku chini.
actually jasiri it is the mirage 5 their resemblance is uncanny. it was developed when the french declined to sell arms to israel after the 1960s war against the arabs. both of them sport the delta wings. i hear the NSIS is up for restructuring soon anybody with data please enlighten.
oh and jasiri be advised majors have photographic memories ole nkarei can probably remember his first day at nursery school.
Jasiri raised a vital matter of Civilian Oversight on our country’s Aggressor Forces, which essentially serves to covers us with a blanket of legitimacy when we take armed actions with consequences of extreme prejudice – these actions as being an expression of the People. Without this, we are no better than the criminal gangs depopulating their own people in Somalia. But the counter-weight to this Civilian Oversight is our Profesionalism, Discipline, Readiness, that the Civilians not only admire, but MORE IMPORTANTLY FEAR – that their legitimacy is only relevant in as long as the exercise of this oversight mirrors the expressions of the people. In this scenario, it might become clearer why Migingo failed the requisite test of CLEAR AND PRESENT National interests since national consensus to military actions was not established.
Olekoima, jasiri
The JF-17 and the FC-1 are two different fighter that look alike but they is a lot under the hoods. to begin with one is a Dragon the other is Thunder. Get the point.
The JF-17 is a PAF specialized version of FC-1, it is peer with NATO standards. The Pakistanis did resources on their F-16 and what the F-16 larked in , they made it up in the JF-17. According to the Pakistani, the JF-17 is cheaper to run and superior then the F-16E/F (export variant of the F-16). The aircraft is manufactured in china and is on sell to keep the project running but Its Suite is locked for confidential purpose. Therefore modification and upgrades have to be granted by the Pakistani. The Jf-17 is therefore a sequential of the F-16.i.e. from the F-16 comes the F-17.
The FC-1 can come in basic fighter frames and engine. you can mount as much avionics as the frame can hold or you funds can afford. China gave this offer because it wants part of the cake of the military market that the West dominates.
haya Jasiri kazi niyo yaku modify and upgrading start applying for visa for the follow countries that have placed orders Egypt ?, Iran, Zimbabwe and Azerbaijan
FC-1 has ;
Zhuk/Elta/Sextant/Sino/Grifo-7/your choice
Zhuk/Elta/Sino/Thales Avionics Suite/your choice
Xhuk/Elta/Sino/SAGEM ECM/EW Suite/your choice
Chinese/Elta/Thales/Kentron Helmet Mounted Display/your choice
Digital or Analogue Fly-by-Wire
7 Hardpoints
Glass Cockpit (2 Large MFDs + 2 Small MFDs + 1 HUD)
The JF-17 has ;
Thales RC400 Radar
Thales Avionics Suite
SAGEM ECM/EW Suite
Kentron or Thales Helmet Mounted Display
Fully Digital Fly-by-Wire System NATO standards
9 Hardpoints
Sextant Avionique Glass Cockpit (3 Large MFDs + 2 Small MFDs + 1 HUD)
if the zims can afford this plane sisi pia nayo nayo. its a quality aircraft i tell you. and since when (not if) we get it we are likely to get it new it gives us a chance to order them tailor made for our needs. maybe they will even give the kenyan version a name of its own like the JF 17 K like the deed with the hawk 50 series the hawk 52 was tailor made for kenya air force. having said that am sure once these birds are acquired they will number not less than 10 add that to the existing F – 5 fleet some of which i know will be cannibalized by the “new” F 5 arriving from jordan which number 15 i have to take issue with the air force infrastructure especially embakasi. that airbase is being literally chocked by civilian buildings around it. if i was the government i would hurry up the expansion of JKIA to create space for a small aircraft section there where i would relocate wilson to then convert wilson to an airforce base to cater for the increased airforce planes.
I think the FC-1 will be existing in BLOCKS like the F-16. its more economical.
I personally think its not good to have fighters based in Embakasi . There were reasons the British move the fighters from the then Kenya Airforce Base Easleigh to the Kenya Airforce Base Nanyuki.
“D”, weren’t the air men at one time lusting for Wilson? what happened?
Risasi, i agree with you. Having a fighter base in the city only exposes civys to danger. we should base the fighter in Nanyuki, Wajir, Garissa maybe Lokichogio too that way we have a good network. Plus the F.O.B’s in Kisumu and Mombasa should be utilised fully.
kwetu ni kisumu n in all the years i grew up there i never saw a single airforce plane overhead.that FOB is defunct.
So much talk,
An Elite force without a good defence policy is useless.
In Migingo 20 Ugandan policemen took over Kenyan
Territory with a shot!
Case closed!
have had our men in uniform in lots of praise to the 20th para battalion and company-the D coy,how good are these boys,are there training different with other infantry?
wat makes them that good as one person had mention in the blog that half of the can create havoc to a whole armed infantry battalion,do they have special war machines??
wats there number,are they many??
Just like what ole Nkarei,told you its not pleasant to discuses some issue on the web. The primary function of D coy is behind enemy lines. At this area they can monitor their movements coordinate with artillery or air strikes to destroy them. They can mine essential areas and provide assignation kills on unit commanders as they track them by.
among many
Vipi, jamas!
Classified stuff, Felix. You are asking obtuse queries about men on the ground, some in active posting in hostile grounds, and not some unreachable airflame. Suffice to say they are very very good, train with the very best in the world, have very appropriate kit ,and have a drastically different philosophy (raison dëtre) and hence training from general infantry units. Please just leave it there, I plead with you. On such matters that have ramifications on National Security and the personal welbeing of these men, I should think that a right to know must be qualified with a need to know, bra. This blog has developed an incredible hit-frequency lately and you would be surprised the extent of its readership. Careful guys!.
I’d tend to think that D’coy are more of infiltration,assymetrical warfare oriented with additional deep penetration long range patrol and recon,pathfinder etc etc,this is very plausible seeing as Kenya NavyCDU usually undergo SEAL/SBS training.
More importantly,Kenya is raising a whole Ranger battalion modelled after the 75th ranger regt USA,initial troops are already through with the ranger school course in Fort Benning GA and have the tab,only thing lacking are sufficient air assets to move all these around, also note the existence of elite Kenya Navy Marine Commandos- winners of March and Shoot 2000,the records they set are yet to be broken, overall better than other units of KA then.Therefore Kenya Armed Forces has numerous units that can be classed as special forces not just 20 para battalion,note also that every infantry battalion has an organic unit tasked with Reconnaisance Surveillance and Target Acquisition-these are usually the best soldiers in the battalion
to add on what the above gentlemen have said, in a mundane language, the D coy are mainly hunters. They could move for days and just fire one lethal shoot or call in support units to eliminate their targets. direct confrontations might give away their positions. behind enemy lines is the key word, with a objectives to perform .
after constant review it was noted that a piece of the puzzle is missing. An assault team similar to D coy, with a heavy and distractive firing power. Its therefore going to be larger then D coy but small then an infantry Coy. It should rapidly engage and withdraw with a strong fire power. This where the new Ranger team fits in. armed with Z-9WA and its utility counterpart Z-9 (troop carrier)they will have a range of +1000km with a good fire power and speeds of 300km/hr. Raiding is the key word. A day in the field would be like raiding target facilities, rescuing downed pilots and POW,s behind enemy lines while getting cover from their gunships, among other others.
hello Major, you are back? contact me on .-. .- .–. – — .-.@gmail.com hope u understand the meaning. i only need like minded people to know the address
sorry, i was in a hurry the complete address is .-. .- .–. — — .-. (.)301@gmail.com
Hey Jasiri! Gotcha.- you reckon I can’t read a simple cipher, eh? I am on a comsat link man, illegal, but cannot resist reading you guys! Done my debrief and going back in. Will catch you when I am back on R & R in a couple weeks. This site is now our, and that is for sure. Keep that guy with the funny queries on “D”coy away, alright? Flares, smoke, whatever you can do!
I think that guy is a foreign agent preying on our seeming ignorance. But we will hold.
Really? I think he is just a curious civilian. His queries look cheap.
It was just a joke Olekoima, no agent can be this brazen.
this is the ethiopian army,anyone thinking they are a mob of disorganized mass infantry is dead wrong- before 1998-2000 war they were not expecting war thus quite unprepared and had no choice but to rely on trenchwarfare tactics. They reorganized quite impressively with new equipment, the stuff in this video is old recently they have upgraded with 2s19 msta self propelled howitzers, north korean 122mm SPH, wz551 ifv from china,t-72 from yemen,they are manufacturing rpg7s ak101,103,refurbrishing t-55mbt,type 89 apc from china,152mm gun 2a36.
With this type of organisation they were able to blitz into Mogadishu in 2006- same distance to Nairobi by the way-in one week,drove all the way to the Kenyan border near Lamu,this is the one major reason why GoK is spending on T-72s F-5s etc
The US Rangers Battalion are really a Light Infantry Formation, not particularly a Special Forces in the real sense of the word, best seen as a stop-gap between a full infantry Unit with Light Amour (APC’)and Anti-amour and Anti-air capacities ( but short of a Mechanized Infantry Formation) and a full-fledge Special Force Formation that wages unorthodox un-natural warfare in small compartmentalized squads of 6(SAS) 7(Delta Force) and 12(Kenya). This then defines them Ranger – their recruitment (short-bodied light-weights soldiers) their training(Cross-quarter Combat, Air-drops by Fixed-winged and Rota-winged aircraft both High-entry and low-entry, infiltration and sabotage behind lines, evasion and survival skills under duress, psychological preparations in case of capture, etc. The Kenya’s ‘D’ Coy and our Navy CDU are not at all intended for this sort of thing. These are killer-aggressor units that train and deploy only for this purpose. Any long range patrol and recon, pathfinder tasking and others manners of asymmetrical warfare are secondary to this. Deployment always presupposes a finality of the Oeration with Extreme Prejudice, period! The Kenya Ranger-type battalion about to commission responds to the crisis we have faced for decades with an imploded Somalia where a full-fledged invasion isn’t permissible nor tenable in view of the type of opposition facing us, nor the continuous utilization of Killer-aggressor Units in mundane Intel /surveillance and interdiction functions which a light infantry Formation such as this would be better tasked and prepared for . Then I can come home more often and drink that Tusker Malt like the rest of you desk-types, eh?
note that all ethiopian t-55 have kontakt1 era,kenya should take care to upgrade all new t-72s with kontact 5 or relikit era, and put the ancient mk3 mbt through a sabra mkII like upgrade.
REQ: Who knows anything about our Kenya Navy Marine Commandos- we hear very little of them but methinks that this is one very capable light infantry unit being kept under wraps.
The CDU is a very shy organisation. all i know is that they have a separate barracks within the Mtongwe Naval base. Their reputation is quite fierce that if u tell a Msa cop u belong to CDU he drops you like a hot potato. By the look of things, these guys are our Sayeret Matkal(IDF special forces)
hey guys good job letting those questions on D coy pass men i may be a desk type paper pusher (yes i am) lakini i have had my stints in the field to learn that the slightest info in the wrong hands could be disastrous like the recent mosad op in dubai, sm1 leaked a single name to the press and the whole party was busted.
the vickers mk3 did go through a mid life upgrade i just dont have the specs in my head right now but am sure they are somewhere. n major u knw we dnt wish each other luck so happy hunting.
I went through the Mossad video of dubai it was very interesting . the surveillance team was dress like tennis players and had cellphones that were encoded. they used foreign passports because those nationalities get Visa on arrivals no application need. I will try to post it if any1 is interested
To spearhead, observer:
part of the suit is not installed
Gentlemen on the issue of the new Su30 positioned on our “9 oclock”, the tactics will be similar to what we have for our “12 oclock” neighbor with his Su27. I will go technical .The Su30 is an upgrade of the Su-27.with thrust vector controls. We have several options ,
1. Similar to jasiri’s move The UN allows 1 to launch an attack to a neighbor if you deem he is talking position to attack you. Preemptive strikes debatable, but it can be done. movements and exercises of the “12 oclock” guy are logged studied and we have found many “Achilles’ heel”. Here are some which are not substance able but just read on. where do the birds lay and how long it take them to get a clearance to takeoff, (The Su27 can,t lift without special authorizations to prevent a greedy pilot from defect with it.) how long it takes the birds to be turned around after a sortie fuel and arming.etcs. What are the mean time between failures. With regards to the squadron that they keep in their capital most of there pilots stay out side the base and morning times is appropriate to raid them as the pilots will be caught up in the heavy rush hour jams. There are a lot of red tapes and Small thing that they have over looked that will give us advantages. With this in hand it’s very possible to get them in there hangers.
2. due to the location of the Su27 home base it easy for D coy to stay covert and bring them down as they take off using the basic Mistral missile.
This is scenario 1 before takeoff I will be back with scenario 2 after takeoff this compose the BuK and the F-5.
Guys i think this blog is becoming too technical. We may be unwittingly outlining our own offensive moves to an enemy when we can’t be accorded the same windfall. carefull with the specs.
this is just a side dish
“D” can u give the formative history of the modern day Kenya armed Forces(Tri-Service)
i have just learnt how kenya armed forces are well organised if all this discussion are not just on books never the less our military power remained untested since indepence and therefore with all the units that our men are proud of ,are yet to be determined.
about the CDU,i have been to mtongwe but havent hard much about them and their operations even the kenya navy marine commandors.
anyone who can tell us more about them??
chinook,
no one can tell you more about them. by the way where did the guy called izzo go to?
my brother risasi – you are still at it man – good man you are credible in your analysis about military affairs – interesting that we started this discussion about the f 5 tiger in 2008 – lol – anyway i have credible info that the Kenyan air force already has the ex-Jordanian f 5s – and they are in tiptop shape with israeli avionics and all the latest upgrades- and they are already upgrading the older fleet to bring it up to par with the newer ones and also the chinese are equipping us with some of their airforce military aircraft – from heavy transports to the j 17 fighter aircraft – helicopter gunships etc etc – i hear this has elevated us juu sana in this region – heard anything urself ??
thanks chalo will about you on a covert mission soon to keep the blog s live check in time to time
i want somebody to come up with a proposal on how the Su30/Su27 can destroy our airforce. Lets lock horns vijana esp. spearhead, jasiri. Form you squadrons against mine. lets simulate.
in the Ugandan case, numbers are their main disadvantage. 6 SU-30’s against 30+ F-5’s is suicide but i could still manage to do major damage. Kwanza, i find out the radar floor of the KAF surveillance radar and the placement of all strategic radar between Uganda and Nanyuki. I then order my fighters in. i know the KAF will not engage me in a long range aerial battle because that is where my primary strength lies in. The sukhois hug the ground before reaching the Kenyan border. It is a long range fighter so the fuel aint a problem. Alafu i use the rift valley’s features to my advantage. Between valleys escarpments gorges anything i can use to hide my presence. Finally, Karibu na Nanyuki i pop up for my kill. PRIORITY: RUNWAYS AND CON TOWER. SECONDARY PRIORITY: HANGARS FUELL DUMPS RADAR INSTALLATION. Meanwhile the Mig 23’s sneak in and hit the radars looking into Uganda. on my return, i don’t have to worry about fighters ambushing me. Taking out Nanyuki will be a huge plus on our side because it would force the KAF to operate further from the frontier. This will be a serious disadvantage because the majority of the fuel will be used to bring the closer to Ug and in case of a dog-fight, the UPDF will dictate terms. The runways in Eld and Kisumu will be useless coz with no radar cover to warn in advance, the Kaf won’t risk putting it’s fighters in the open. unless they have a secret AWACS bird we don’t know about.
finally some1 confirms what i already knew didnt i tell u guys the ex jordanian birds are here. am not much of an airforce guy so am going to let Risasi’s air combat simulation to more formidable opponents.
AM back baby!
To pick up on the upgrades o the F5s its common knowledge that our chief of general staff was in israel to secure new avionics for the upgrades of these birds.its also in the air that beside the already equipment we have secutred from china,more especially gunships are on the way.We have everything in line guys.We lead from the front in this hemisphere.copy that over.
the su – 30 uses the R – 77 missile as its primary long range weapon plus its its powerful radar ensures that it will see the enemy before the enemy sees it thus having the opportunity to fire first. this is a clear advantage on the part of the su – 30 and it is unadvisable to engage it at long ranges. its thrust vectoring system makes it highly maneuverable it can out turn outclimb and outdive any aircraft in our hangars at the moment, the JF – 17 is an almost sure acquisition but it too has no thrust vectoring. in the event of a surprise attack if i was to be tasked with the defence of our airspace with the current equipment i would let the su 30 get close to negate its long range abilities before i scramble my fighters keeping my birds close to the dirt to avoid those radar missiles since they are way fewer than what is at hand i would then play the numbers game of maybe 3 f – 5s to 1 SU 30 this way they could watch each others back, help to confuse the enemy while allowing themselves to use moves like the thatch weave which i gather was used in ww2 by allied pilots to combat the faster and agile Mitsubishi zeros. the sidewinders are dependable in dog fight situations that plus our pilots expertise and experience will be vital in defeating these threats.but the only plane ive ever been inside is one i was required to jump off so on matters aerial battles am sure someone could come up with a better theory.
anybody else to back “D” with a suggestion before we proceed with the simulation. The the ELM 2032 (unlike what spearhead thinks of this radar) is the downsized variant of the 2035. it can also detect the Su,s at a good distances. With this “D” I would suggest you get some juakali artisans along the border as there will be a lot of scrap crashed Su’s which will be good raw materials for there jobs in building jikos and the like.
Let me help my opponents. We have learnt that a former Russian expert is planning to train and use the Ug Su30 if that if there are acquired as mini AWACS based on the radar capabilities. a typical attack or formation to be 1 Su30 flanked with 3 MiGs, the Su3o will scan, detect fire a BvR missile at our formation and the MiG,s will purse. by the way this just for learning purpose there are no winner or losses what you want to input go ahead and do so.
I will post the elm2032 resolution and see how vivid it is.
i was basing my assumptions on using the SU30 in 2 plane squads used as long range strike planes and to attack key military installation inside enemy territory i did not factor them in as air superiority fighters because of the lack of numbers, the wide area of operations and the size of the enemy they are up against. i figured the MiG 23s could be used in support of the above role while also acting as search and destroy units kind of the first line of defence against aerial aggression. the MiG 21s and MiG 15s (if they are still operational) would then have to stick to a ground attack/support and basic recon inside their own territory activities since in the event of a Kenyan-Uganda Kenyan ground forces would be in Ug long before the UPDF can get their act together and recall their soldiers from the Rwandan front. if i were a ugandan airforce commander (if such a force exists) i would avoid mixed squadrons the older aircraft in my inventory would limit the strengths of my SU30s. however the idea of using them as a mini AWACS is commendable but i would only commit one bird at a time for this role.
the ELM 2032 has a detection range similar to that of the Su30 radar. its 15km shorter. In your scenario i would use two squadrons, one in passive and the other in active electronics modes. the active sqd. will form a bait for the Su30 simulating a will to engage. the passive squadron to be guided by CGI to the rear of the Su30 squadrons. At close quarter the F-5 will take the Su30.
i have just received confirmation that the Ugandan forces will indeed receive 6 SU30s in 2 batches. the first 2 arrive later this year while the remaining 4 are coming in early next year. arms race is officially on guys
There is a clear arms race now in the East African region. Why should our western neighbour go for 4.5+ generation aircraft. Where is the threat coming from for them to acquire such a sophisticated machine or do they have expansionist tendencies because of the newly found oil wealth? I still have my reservations as to whether they will be able to support such a bird(training,infrastructure,weapons,maintenance etc).
My take on this issue is that it’s a massive waste of resources as the flankers might end up gathering dust at Entebbe. For a country that has no functioning air force to talk about, the Su-30 represents a quantum leap in technology and my advice would be for their strategists to look for another cheaper and efficient alternative. Even a Mig-29 would be an overkill for UG leave alone a Sukhoi 30.
oil gentlemen, the source of all world troubles. penye mafuta hapakosi moshi.with oil comes money with money comes power and power corrupts absolutely. maybe its a change in UGs defence strategy towards a deterrence rather than n openly aggressive one. however arms deals are not hatched overnight am sure this might have been in the pipeline for a long time i think all the war games and tough talk at the height of the migingo saga might have made them jittery when they realized their short comings.
i think we should bring in the Aero L – 159 to replace the BAe Hawks in the near future. what do you guys say?
uganda officially refused the su 30’s the argument is they haven’t been able to keep their mig 21’s in tip top shape – they have had to take them to israel for upgrading – the su 30 is superior in many ways and you need a competent force to keep them air worthy just ask the indians – the kenyan hawks have been grounded and in storage – but i think we need a fighter trainer a sort of lead in trainer that can be a fighter and trainer at the same time – the super tucano does well as a trainer what about the Aermacchi from russia first flew in 1996 and was brought to Italy the following year to substitute the aging MB-339. haki ya mungu we have choices i have no idea what the kenyan military struggles with.
The Aero Vodochody L-159 is a useless piece of metal. It was tested by the KAF and our pilots gave it a thumbs down despite political pressure to accept it.
There are better alternatives to replace the Hawks than the L-159.
Kilo Alpha gave me new orders am being deployed to God knows where to do God knows what.see you guys in a couple of weeks and keep this alive.
Hey “D”, come get some. Plenty to go round, mate. Send me cipher on this very blog, if you can, when you are in, I will find you – same call signs.
— -… … . .-. …- . .- -. -.. .-. . .–. — .-. – — .–. … .. -. – …. . . .- … – .- — …. — — . -. — .–
It was on the eastarican news couple of days ago that Uganda is indeed acquiring 6 su 30s and this project was only put on hold due to shortfalls in the budet.As a matter of fact Russia offered to deliver them in exchange for favors from new oil wealth industry.On the other hand Uganda was upset that Russian media broke the news which uganda hoped to keep a secret.Irrespective of the social and economic ties we have with Ug,this is one man who we cant trust.Can our fly boys elaborate on how we fair agaisnt this threat with our current inventory of tigers.I understand they have been upgraded with modern avionics and they overwhelmingly outnumber what Ug can wield but are they a safe bet against su,s.Shall we have to call upon army air defence pieces?help me out here.
Nothing to worry about. If an engagement occurs it will be a battle of ordnance and tactics which we are ahead and superior. our upgraded F-5 and our tactics can take the Su30 any day. if you observer your enemy you will find his Achilles heel and hit it, if a need been. a well planned strategy will bring the Su30 down. My friend kenya ranks in Africa.
kama hawana pesa zakunua the Su30 they should blame it on the Russian media for exposing the deal. For how long did they think they could have kept the deal airtight? there are international institutions which monitor the movements of arms world wide. it would have been know tuu as soon as the jets left Moscow.
Risasi,
Whilst i value and respect your comments, i think it is no longer safe to dismiss the air-capability threat from our neighbours. The SU-30MK2s in Uganda will pose a significant threat however few they may be. And this is not all, we have SU-27s in Ethiopia, and the relatively smaller MiG 29s in Sudan and perhaps in Tanzania. Where does this leave us?
I don’t mean to doubt the capability of our upgraded F-5s, but look, they will be up against 4.5 generation fighters and may thus be awfully inadequate. It is not right to assume either that UG will struggle to maintain and keep their jets air-born. Once oil money starts to flow, this will no longer be a constraint to them. And to fly them they may just decide to hire qualified Russian mercenaries.
That the Kenya air-force is well developed with enough resources to guarantee our air safety is not in doubt, but the neighbours are now attempting to close this gap and even overtake us.
What should Kenya do then?
In my opinion, we should in addition to the fighter jets that we have acquire at least a 4th generation fighter jet in small numbers of say 8-10 to supplement. The best jet to buy could be the American built F-16. This jet has a proven combat history and is relatively inexpensive compared to the F-18,F-15, the Dessault Rafale or the Eurofighter Typhoon some of which might be restricted too.
I have omitted the JAS-39 Gripen, the FC-1 and the J-11 by virtue of their un-proven combat history.
What do others say?
Yes bwana Olekoima, . lets discuss like professionals. Whenever I put up or let me say evaluate the Su30, I do,t find it a threat hands down. If Kenya was to fight multi- fronts i.e against the north and west front simultaneously then the story would be different. fighting individual country KAF is still ok. I would like you to enlighten me on areas that you feel we would loss out against the Su30 or any AF ordnance
. in my arguments I don,t underrated my opponents,i.e the Su30 is in tiptop shape, but based on what I know we have or are aspiring to acquire.
I don,t see any thing major.
Lets discuses openly anybody who is will to share points and contribute is welcomed
Very well Risasi. I will buy your line of argument especially based on what we intend to acquire. It is also highly unlikely that we fight in two fronts in the foreseeable future given the threats currently facing our two northern neighbours. I mean it will be stupid of them to open another front when their hands are still so full.
However i’ am alarmed at the rate of ‘re-armament’ in this region as of now and am obviously running scared of nations that have hitherto been having no air-force to speak of catching up with us and even attempting to play in our league.
these equipments are there for sell. our neighbors feel they need to upgrade its ok, they are at liberty to do so. Only thing is that we should be ready to counter them. What ug got is sophisticated equipment and bring it to this part of the word without proper support infrastructures will be under using it.That’s why I say we can kill it with our zealousness The Russia sold them the staff kumutongoza apewe mafuta. sio? With the infrastructure (airforce) that Ug has the much they can do is use the Su30 as airborne missile launching platforms. I would like to hear your reservations on the F-5 vs the Su30. I always tell people there no stupid questions and they is always something to learn about.
I totally agree with you gentlemen and thank you for continuously posting professional comments on this vital forum.
Although our western neighbour is still in denial that they are acquiring the Sukhoi, it’s an open secret now that the contract has been signed and since they don’t have hard cash at the moment,Uganda was planning to sign the agreement and pay for the planes with oil money. “Since Uganda is short of real money to pay for the planes, Russian LUKoil is negotiating its potential participation in developing large oil fields in Uganda, implying a possible swapping.”
The Su-30MK2 that UG is acquiring is a very sophisticated and capable multi-role combat aircraft and whether we like it or not, it is going to tilt the balance of military power in East Africa. I totally agree with Olekoima’s comments on how we should respond to this threat and i concur our best bet is to acquire the Falcon and also include something like the SAAB ERIEYE as our eyes in the sky(remember the Su-30 can act as a mini AWACS.
Your valued comments gentlemen are eagerly awaited.
i would go for the Israeli Phalcon over the erieye. i don’t trust this dutch machine.
F-5 vs SU-30,
Risasi, my argument here is that in a dog-fight situation, the F-5 is unlikely to win. Besides, the SU-30 is likely to engage it from very far without even seeing it. The later is much faster too and with a much longer combat radius. It therefore has the advantage of accomplishing the job and bolting off before the later has time to effectively respond.
The only safe bet here is that 6 su’s are very few to effectively cause any chaos among our defences plus the fact that if we decide to knock out key strategic command and control and other nerve center with our f5s we stand a better chance of overwhelming the Su’s meaning that without other infrastructure in place,they stand no chance irrespective of their superiority.My assessment here is that 6 Su ‘s are far too few to engage our forces.WIth more than 20 f-5s in readiness plus our merchanized divisions plus our 50 air calvary units,not mentioning the characrte of our forces ,i believe all the pieces of the parcel are in place to render these Su’s worthiless.
Correct, but are we sure that UG will stop at just 6 SU-30s?. Suppose they choose to add another six in a similar exchange for oil?
With oil money coming in, major arms suppliers will probably
be lining up with offers to modernize the military and in this regard address their current shortcomings.
An improvement of their air defense capability will see our advantage eroded. Needless to say this developments will take time and this is where we need to move fast to counter all else.
Gentlemen, this is where the F-16 comes in handy.
Gentlemen Lets bite what we can chew and lets not speculate. oil money, future weapons procurements etc will shall discuses when we reach the river. Lets discuses what is imminent and at least in hand.
one man army whenever a military ordnance is acquired the balance of power is tilted. The balance can tilt on bought ways, positive or negative on the scale. i.e based on constant break down, time training cost of spare parts etc leadS to a negative trend. but lets assume the best to our opponents all goes will and the balance changes towards the positive side. now lets see how we can deal with them.
There is an item that a blog member has posted which is very important but before I dwell on it lets look at the following facts. It would like to ask my brother Olekoima or any member for that matter, how far do you think the Su30 can engage and kill ? yes my neighbor might have a longer range radar but that doesn’t warrant me instant death on my path. after this question is answer will go into a small discussion on aviation technology which I think is what is confusing many members. I believe after that discussion most of you will see the light that I am talking about
Points to ponder before we discuse:
The Su30 is always denoted with the suffix MK, Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy meaning “Modernized Commercial
Su30MKI means Modernized Commercial India (locked to india only),
Su-30MKK Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Kitaya or Modernized Commercial China
Su-30MKM for Royal Malaysian Air Force Indo-Russian tech. made by Hindustani india
Su-30MKV Venezuela similar to the Su-30MK2.
Su-30MK2V Su-30MK2 variant for Vietnam
Su-30MKA Algeria is similar to the MKI with French and Russian avionics
Su30MKK3 anti-ship naval version
Su-30MK Standard commercial version
Su-30M2 Upgraded Su-30MK with canards and TVC (thrust vector controls)
Most countries like Venezuela, Vietnam, Indonesian, uganda have bought the standard version of the Su30. the Su30MK2.
i meant uganda have bought the standard version of the Su30. the Su30M2 not the Su30MK2
i meant uganda bought the standard commercial version the M2 not the MKK/MK2 with is actually Chinese version meant for china. A common confusion.
Radars:
Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE; 90-110km counter-air; 70-80km ground targets; 200-250km for large ships;MKK2
Phazotron Zhuk-M-S, 140km counter-air, 300km large ships; Kupol M400 side-looking radar pod, controls 10x fighters; MKK3 (anti-ship naval version):
The N011M BARS counter-air 120 km. radar sea-surface targets at a distance of up to 400 km ,MKM Malaysia, MKI india
Tikomirov “Panda,” 190km counter air (est.); or new version of Zhuk-M-S. MKK3
.EL/M-2032 air mode range of up to 150 km, -ground mode imagery of locations 150 km, sea mode can detect and classify naval targets up to 300 km. (F-5 upgrade)
Counter check each radar from the internets.
The airfore is collaborating with the US military to form F-5 squadrons with a sea strike capability and Ranger squadrons for the army.
All i can say is that our planners should address this matter in near future,i mean an effective counter to this Su threat should be addressed and am more than sure this is in the mind of our planners.Nevertheless,even in my wildest nightmares,i do not conceive any situation where our neighbour wins any confrontation against Kenyan forces even with the benefit of these 6 Su’s.What makes an effective fighting force is not merely an acqisation of few weapons here and there.Ive fought alongside these fellas in congo and i will tell you what they are not.They are not an effective lethal army.What am saying here is that addressing whats at hand and not crossing the bridge before we come to it,we beat them in all facets needed to win a war.I would like to hear a contrary opinionbased on real stuff not emotions.
Well i’ am not sure but i reckon the SU-30’s combat radius will bring far flung areas like Mombasa to well within its reach.
I also know that F-5s operating from Eldoret or Kitale will very well hit western Uganda or Juba for that matter.
Now my point is not to doubt our capacity as of now. I think you misunderstand me Risasi,One man army. My concern is the future and what reaction our military planners are taking.
For now i will take Risasi;s advice that we cross the bridge when we get there and in the hope that military planners will respond appropriately to the inherent threats and do so very fast.
Separately, where is our brother Jasiri?
Guys,
Having said that, isn’t it not within Kenya’s reach to purchase a jet like the F-16? If poor Uganda and Ethiopia can afford the Sukhois what then prevents East Africa’s largest economy from doing the same?
wat happened to our hawks,are they still in service and wats their combat radious?
do we have any plan a foot for more lethal machines,fighters and gunships??
uganda have already procured for the 6fighters and they gonna be delivered in batch,first are arriving late this year and the bal. 4next year.
lets not only fucus on our neighbours,rember Egypt has a problem with the lake victoria waters and threaterning to go to war with any country should they interfere with the flow of the nile.
Egypt can strike any military in kenya as our forces watch.
do we have any plan to avert such scenarios b4 our force melt in to civilian in case of war with the farah?
Egypt will not win this war, believe me. They have a mighty well equipped and well trained military, but this will not be enough.
To use force then they will have to occupy the 10 Nile basin countries starting with Ethiopia. Their army however large will be extremely overstretched. And then of course they will have to deal with active sabotage from among the citizenry of the affected countries. Do they have the endurance to survive in East African jungles while waging war in unfamiliar territory?
And this is not all, any covert operation from affected countries that succeeds in knocking out the Aswan high dam will drive the war to an abrupt end with untold humanitarian consequences to Egypt.
The best that Egypt can do therefore is to negotiate. Any chest thumping for war by virtue of their perceived military superiority will be to their disadvantage.
I have total faith in our our military strategists but a word of advice to them since no has a monopoly of ideas is that we should go for the combat proven vipers and forget about the Sino FC-1 or J-11 because of their unproven record.
Am also sure that Uncle Sam is watching the unfolding events closely and since we are a strong ally in the region, something could be in the offing in future(remember that Uncle Sam also faces the same threat we are facing of technologically advanced Russian fighters from his potential adversaries. I have Venezuela in mind).
i have reservations against hugging Uncle Sam’s legs to tight. This guy might just do something wild or use us to fight a proxy war for them. Separately though, now that Uganda has sukhoi’s they have unknowingly given Kenya a reason to tell the Foreign Military assistance office of the U.S should we choose to go to them for air cover.
the ug Su are the basic models with Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE radars which have 90-110km counter-air; 70-80km ground targets; .this birds shouldn,t cause much threat. They can knock us down and we too can punch them out of the skies too.
The Su30 has a range of 3000km. it can reach Mombassa. It has long distance radar and can perform the S cobra maneuvers. When it comes to radar tech the elm2032 is superior then the NIIIP N001VE radar.
in dogfights and chasing the Su30 can climb and out maneuver the F-5 hands down. this has be solved by the f-5 acquiring the DASH helmet for its pilots . Display and Sight Helmet (DASH) enables pilots to aim their weapons simply by looking at the target. So what ever speed or a climb, the pilot has just to look at the target to engage it. Therefore the S cobra and the high speed climbs are taken care off at this point. its up to the zealousness of the pilots now.
BvR capabilities with the missile called the R-77 range of 120km. this is what many fear. i.e they think that the R-77 can knock you out at a distance of 120km. Missiles are marketed with their maximum engagement range, which is very misleading when it comes to fast moving targets like Jets fighters.this is just a specification of the missile, marketing aspect. If the missile should engage a target head-on and the target is non-evading then at 120km it will knock it our.
If the target is fast moving and taking evasive action, or in stern-chase position, causing the approaching missile to move in “S” like turns or any non linear moves the missile range will be reduced as it will burn out 120km fuel before reaching the target.
http://www.elbitsystems.com/lobmainpage.asp?id=198
Due to the size of the missile the radar is small i.e to fit inside a missile and is powered from batteries, its self Active radar homing range is limited to around 20km. in BvR missiles actually relays on the launch platform radar to guide it up to the 20km mark. If the launch platform gets in danger i.e is also attack and turns around the guided missile becomes useless. In advnace airforces AWACS guide the loose missiles while the Su30 moves to save distance or engage other targets .
Kenya-ace mentioned. AWACS vitual equipments to use with this bird especially if they are to engage the F-5 with advance radars like the ELM2032. such infrastructures larks in ug.
poorly-trained pilots, are known to fire their missiles at maximum-range engagement with poor results. In the 1998–2000 Eritrean-Ethiopian War, fighters from both sides shot over a dozen missiles at distance with little effect.
The effective range of an air-to-air missile is known as the “no-escape zone”, the range at which the target can not evade or runaway from the missile once launched. This reduces the R-77 range by as much as 75%–80% to 20–25 km.
Are our F-5 fighter pilots equipped with these DASH helmets?
Separately, it still beats me why Northrop had to cancel the F-20 Tigershark.
This low cost fighter jet could have found ready customers from among US cold war allies that were already using the F-5.
One wonders if they can re-think this decision.
the tigershark was killed by the US Navy and Airforce reluctance to buy them.i dont know why it was an excellent machine, it used 53% less fuel, it had 63% lower operting cost, and required 52% less maintainance cost than its main rival the F – 16 N. in the end the US Navy bought the F – 16N at a knocked down price that was still higher than the tag price of the F – 20.ironically the F – 16N was quietly retired due to a cracked airframe and replaced by the fighting falcon.
the F – 20 was a privately funded venture by Northrop. If we have the cash plus a little goodwill and co – operation from like minded states am sure we could partner up and revive this project just imagine if that plane was that good then in the mid 80s how much better can it be made with modern avionics and technology. all it takes is a little negotiation.
Well yes, like-minded countries could apply to license produce the plane. I’ am sure countries like Taiwan, Brazil and even South Korea, singapore, Malaysia are gonna like the idea especially on the strength of cost and maitainance. Even us the Kenyans, this plane will be of much interest.
The F-20 project is very attractive however to me it seems like a long shot. Even if we get a few countries to agree it would take years to redevelop this aircraft and bring it up to mass production standards. Not to mention the waiting time before delivery. What we need is a quick solution within the next 3 years.
In my view we need at least 6 4th or 4.5 generation fighters and an AEW&C aircraft. The Saab Erieye fits the bill in my books for the AWACS role. In the fighter i see a split between the FC – 1 and the F – 16 block 40/42 aircraft. With the recent tilt towards sino sourcing i would bet that the FC – 1 has a better chance of being aquired. however if we are to rely on proven ability the F-16 is certainly tops. Morocco acquired 24 of the F-16 block 40/42 for 2 billion dollars. This is the full price including spares,logistics and training costs plus “after sale services”. This was not a country to country deal, they procured the birds directly from lockheed which means they were brand new. Considering that we would be in the market for a smaller number of the aircraft lets say maybe 8 and chances of us going after new ones are slim i dont think the price tag would be very prohibitive. I still think the JF-17 is the more likely choice. Wikipedia states that 2 African countries have expressed interest in the jet one being Zimbabwe. The other one has not been publicly announced yet but watch this space.
I think the F-16 wouldn’t be a good deal. I would prefer it as an item in the arsenals but not a pivot for defense. they should be supplemented with other Fighters from a reliable source. the USA mistreats its clients when it falls out with them. Countries like India who wanted to procure 250 jets for its AFlead to the USA offering the F-18 super hornet plus its blue prints, which would have helped them develop the LCA, but due to the USA track records on after sale service they withdrew from the offer.
the Block 40/42 will be a plus but nothing more then that. due to its capabilities, a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program would have to be forged by the USA to Kenya unlike the Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) program, which oversees sales between foreign governments and private U.S. companies. USAF FMS programs are assigned two-word codenames beginning with the word PEACE .in the FMS program the purchaser does not deal directly with the defense contractor; instead, to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency. an intermediary, usually handling procurement, logistics and delivery and often providing product support and training.
FMS for the middle eastern/Arab countries (Bahrain, Egypt, U.A.E, Jordan all having the F-16) are attached to recognizing and peace treaties with Israel. The USA uses the FMS for its own political agendas.
This is the trick part after Kenya ran to the East subsequently ranking low in The Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program from the USA (grants and loans to purchase weapons produced in the United States). I think Sino procurements will be tempered with the USA in the FMS deal if the country is to be give the F-16. this would be a good bargaining chip. Mambo si rahisi hivyo ndugu zanguni.
I still believe the J-10 , FC-1 or at least the JF-17 would be a good feature candidate. These are my own observation based on my experiences I stand to be corrected.
List of F-16 FMS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operators#Summaries_of_F-16_deliveries
I concur with you Risasi, however if uncle Sam becomes that stingy, we could still go for other alternatives from among west European suppliers. Good examples are the French and the Swedes. I have in mind the SAAB JAS-39 Gripen or even the Mirage 2000.
Better still and on the strength of cost, we have the Chinese with the FC-1 or the J-10. What about the J-11?
Incidentally, what will prevent us from turning to the Russians as well? I’ am sure this move will greatly please the Russians while of course angering uncle Sam, but haven’t we done this before with the T-72s?
Yes i know the T-72s were procured from Ukraine, but they are Russian/ Soviet made and we will not be the first to turn East either. Nigeria and Zimbabwe both did the same out of frustration with their western suppliers.
Mirage 2000 performed poorly in the indo/paki war and had to be upgraded a lot. I think European equipments are good for support equipments like radars, radios, missiles etc. but the main tools like fighters JAS-39 or Mirage 2000??? I feel there better fighters then these
The j-11 = Su30 . the J-11 is out of production. It’s obsolete avionics and radar lacked any true precision-strike capabilities, only being able to deliver unguided freefall bombs . Its radar Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE (like the Ug ones) , can simultaneously track 10 targets. However, when engaging a target out of the 10 tracked, all of the rest 9 targets tracked would be lost, and restart a new tracking process after the engagement.
China is replacing the Russian-made J-11components with domestic, Chinese-made components. This has lead to the production of the J-11B.This is the advanced multirole version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. Its still in trail china operates 18 J-11B.
so the best option will be for us to aquire the J-11 and upgrade/Pimp it with western/Israeli avionics right? that makes a lot of sense. in addition we will match the su-30’s range and outmatch it’s performance.
What prevents us from buying Russia equipments is that most of their equipments are not to Nato standards, unlike Ukraine which offers the same equipment in Nato standards. Most Kenya equipments are of Nato standard. a good example is the Ethiopia (ex Yemeni Russian supplied) vs. Kenya’s (Ukrainian with NATO standards) T-72 tanks. The Ethiopian, Russian supplied Tanks operate optical rangefinder (inferior) unlike the TPD-K1 laser rangefinder Kenya’s Ukrainian tanks have among other features. This vital in modern warfare as this gives a one shot one kill probability as the distance from the target is measured accurately. They also operate the KBM2 auto-loaded main gun that fire NATO 120 mm ammunition unlike the Russian T-72 that fire 125mm ammunition.
I think the best option is to buy russian.Uncle sam comes with too many strings attached and he is left holding onto those strings pulling them whenever its convenient for him.Furthermore russians are driven by hunger for money while selling this equipment and would care less whats its intended use might be.Am a ground worrior am not an expert in the air but thats my take in this ever interesting debate.
Risasi take it from here and offer your wisdom on the best option for us.
Well, Risasi is right. We can source from Ukraine and the Chinese.
I think the government is also right in turning to the east (read China). Not only is their equipment cheap , the quality is rapidly improving too. Besides, they don’t have a lot of conditions like the west.
Risasi, from your comments above, i want to believe that most Chinese equipment will have no problem fitting into our NATO standard arsenal. Is that true?
Olekoima, I’m back. i Had an emergency mission redirect. The chinese weapons will fit coz China sells you the basic fighter and they care less how you modify it as long as it is within the parameters of the agreement.
Welcome back.
Olekoima on China equipments with NATO standards update yourself with my articles posted on April 29, 2009 at 10:59 pm to on April 29, 2009 at 11:21 pm
.When the F-5 plus passes its useful life avionics used ( http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf )
in the F-5 plus can service the FC-1. Similarity in avionics operations between the tiger III and the Dragon will easy upgrade /training pilots from one cockpit to the other. That’s why I advocate for the FC-1. Have you drove a friends car and find yourself searching for the indictor or the lights switches? kitu kama hivyo. Smooth continuous and quick change over. I thought UG would have opted for the Mig29 as it share similar cockpits with MiG21 but that’s up to them.
J-11 is basically a Russia plane made in China. It adheres to strict user agreements from Moscow. The only modified Su30 with western avionics is the MKA (Algeria) .It’s use Russian FCS, radar, ECM, weaponry and is fitted with French made HUD, LCD and Damocles Pod. Its basically still relays on Russian technology apart from the cockpit displays units. I think the agreement lock major modifications.
Oh thanks for refreshing my memory. I had forgotten the information.
[…] Kenya Airforce buys junk fighter jets, "The Chronicle Nairobi If an F-5 fuel in 1700 and dental problems compared to arms or a Mig-23 F-7 dental problems with 3505 kg or 5000 kg of gold "the TWR will be greater and its lesser. TWR now joins the list above list mean fair to compare fighters. As for the Persian war, as stated before …… Listen, man. Welcome back. It was a bit lost without you, mate, aviation matters. You might want to do well in the field of war and air to mix with some queries Jasira – not my job at all, you know. … […]
I can’t understand what you mean man. could you come out a bit more clearly?
what the F*ck is he talking about
hahaha hes funny!
This guy seems to exhibit an unbelievable ability to be delusional.what in the world is he talking about?let him not kill this conversation.lets say he is another spartan guy who has his world twisted and poorly informed.
Hey, Jasiri. I reckon you’re blown, mate!! Go Dark, or watch your six!
Cost-effectiveness? Is Kenya’s our Military Doctrine offensive or defensive ? Which of these birds respond to our explicit national military doctrine? In a couple of weeks, we can get delivered and put into Combat Service 15 fully upgraded souped-up F-5E Tiger II and probably another 5 thrown in free of charge, completely “real-time” combat-compliant, plus all the ordnance to obliterate Kampala, Entebbe and Mbarare, for the price of one SU30MK which those UG fellas will take years learning to fly and keep in the Air!!
OR 10 F5E Tiger II and use the equivalent of 5 F5E tiger II (gifted by defense protocols existent) to get more of our fly boys mobilised! OR the equivalent of the same quota and a meatier 50AirCalv tank-eaters! Or the same with a Dozen new High-lift covert insertion / extraction- specific Rotary Transporters even now badly needed. Not quite certain but I reckon with our current Fighter-pilot training regimen we can put out over 100 Birds in Effective Combat Readiness in the space of two months of start of general hostilities!! And these birds are not restricted to the Tigers II coz a good number of our fly boys have substantive hours with the F15E and F16 Fighting Falcons already!
Some hard cash facts you fly boys are not telling about these basically identical multi-role birds. JF-17 Thunder US$ 15 million; F-16A/B US$14.6 million; F-16E/F US$26.9 million;Chengdu-10 US$27.84 million USD;; Mikoyan MiG-29 US$29 million; JAS 39 Gripen US$40-61 million (minus VAT!);
Su-27 US$30 million; Su-30 US$33–45 million Multi-role fighter; F-5A/B Freedom Fighter F-5E/F Tiger II US$2.1 million!!
Therefore I postulate that it does not make sense to respond to perceived threats unless such dynamics inform the responses, asymptomatic of the decades-old Arab countries’ responses to Israel’s carefully executed Offensive Military Preps – huge spending on all manner of weapon systems without strategic value( they lost a war in 6 days, guys!!). Hence, the configuration of our response to UG and SUDAN is /must remain unique to each of them, as deliberate national defense challenge. Up ti ll present times, our strategic posturing is Defensive, everything we do, including our dirty jobs abroad, (black ops and Covert Intel) is only just that! But wait till this should change to OFFENSIVE!! Well!!!
Just another thought gentlemen, if our air defense capability is in top form then we don’t need to worry about what air-crafts our neighbours are equipping themselves with for they will find it almost impossible to penetrate our air space.Remember what the Egyptians did in the Yom Kippur war 1973? They enjoyed good protection from several batteries of SA missiles and almost rendered the mighty Israeli air-force powerless.
This makes a lot of sense for us too especially considering that our military doctrine is defensive in nature.
Precisely my view, Olekoima. We have no need to waste our resources on equipment and men on a threat counter that our present defensive posturing neutralises many times over. Indeed kenya is light years from ever really being threatened by any of these johnny-come-lately cowboys growing in our backyard today. You are a soldier, and you must know from our wargames simulations that we will have effectively neutered all active cordinated resistence in Kampala City and environs 72 hours from open hostilities, and a large swathe of eastern Uganda too. We can restrict all fighting with the Sudan within the Sunan itself. Ethiopia may hit sporadically Isiolo, but the key word is SPORADICALLY. Hell, we have trained to fight two fronts if need be, for Decades, and our Training and Stores has this capacity.
What is the primary purpose of a multi-role fighter plane, if I may ask? I am not a fly-boy, just a bush-grunt. But damnit, if you analyse the configuration of UDPF, and its capacity to war conventional warfare, how do you see them complementing the efforts of the SU-30MKK? Indeed, can you not see how mis-matched this sort of military marraige is? Tis like having a bird in the air, and no airfield to land it on, guys – that bird is bloody useless, as good as lost. For UG to fully reap any benefits of those SU-30MKK, it will involve much much more than just training some ground crews and jockeys to fly them, starting with their military philosophy which will re-engineer their entire miltary doctrine. These birds would never have been purchased in any situation where rationality and not political statements are utilised. And as you all know the UPDF is just one large political statement that is used to intimidate the civilian population by the political elites’ exclusive monopoly and propensity to violence. Sudan is too disfunctional as a state to even defeat a rag-tag pooly led and equiped guerilla outfit, while Ethiopia has nothing to say in this situation!!
Thank you gents for your precise and excellent comments. As I always tell to whoever cares to listen that Kenyans should go about their business in peace and sleep soundly as night as we are capable of dealing with any airborne threat 24/7. Our motto still stands “Tuko Imara Angani” and “Twailinda anga yetu”.
Let no one intimidate us by acquiring a 4.5+ generation fighter. I agree it’s a formidable weapon but we are more than ready to nip it in the bud and clobber senseless anyone who tries to violate our airspace and sovereignty.
am still not convinced that we do not need new generation fighters. dont get me wrong i think that in a dogfight situation id rather be an observer inside a kenyan F-5 rather than anywhere else.what worries me is those BVR missile capabilities and electrical warfare suits the SU-30s possess. face it guys those are clear advantages. the enemy will know they are facing better trained and more experienced pilots i doubt they will be eager to participate in dogfights plus those birds of their are too expensive and few to risk. besides if one of those BVR missile hits a target imagine the kind of morale boost they will get. i suggest giving them no joy, overwhelming them in every sphere of battle it doest make strategic sense.we beat them on the ground but we give them a clear advantage in the air when we dont necessarily have to.i f i was a Ug general i would use the SU30s speed and power to stifle Kilo Alpha’s strong points. i would especially harass the tank battalion make sure the 81st cant advance and if they do at a price too dear while at the same time keeping my BVRs ready to take out any aircraft that comes to support. remember the UPDF is essentially a guerrilla war unit thats their strong point.they know they possess inferior firepower so it is unlikely they would come out for a pitched battle.by taking out our armour and other strong points like transport conveys,artie and communication installations the sky would be the limit.literally.
FC – 1 with modified radar suit to enable it to see the SU-30s before they see them would be just the thing to fix this loophole.mwasemaje?
Thanks D for your counter actions comments. Its good to brainstorm on the subjects .it opens new horizons of thought. I talked about the BvR aspect kitambo kidogo .( Risasi, on April 17, 2010 at 10:10 pm) on the same issue of BvR. For a BvR missile to engage the Launch aircraft has to illuminate its target with its radar until the missile is at a range switch on its own radar. If the launch aircraft is distorted or comes into danger and has to escape then the lock would break and the missile would be useless. Similar experiences were exhibited in the Ethiopian / Eritrean theaters. In modern AF the missile is then controlled by data link from AWACS and the launched aircraft reside to a safe area. Continues illumination by a radar to an aircraft triggers a RwR alarm and evasive actions will be taken . UG BvR would be such a threat. .
Secondly the radar type of the Su30MK2 (Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE) that the UG bought is Inferior in range to the ELM2032 (see specs on Risasi, on April 16, 2010 at 9:13 pm ) of the tiger III. The tiger will see the Flanker well ahead. To add to this the two type of missile that we intend to get will enable the Tiger to shoot direct behind it 360 deg coverage without turning. we still haven’t looked at the BuK deployments etc. I don’t see any problem here guys hata bila a new fighter. The F-5 will be phased out due to its aging frame and maintenance requirements lakini at the moment it can Defend.
convincing i must have only skimmed through those posts when i got back i did not read and analyze them.but there is something we have always had in our forces that we are losing if we don’t invest in new fighters: deterrence value gentlemen do you think even with ELM2032 radar and BuK SAMs we put enough scare in UGs psychology to stop them from trying anything with their new fighters?i hope so.
Still on the issue of birds i think its about time we got some high altitude tactical if we go chinese i would think of the shaanxi Y-9 or the C-27J Spartan.they have about the same range and payload and are perfect for our airborne troops.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html
this site should clear the air about capability of any flanker generation vis a vis an F-5 upgrade. Its very clear who weaker in the air now,we need a very serious capability upgrade
Spearhead, in a possible Armed Conflict in which Air warfare is but one component of it, the conclusion you seek is untenable in military terms. Not intending to accuse my colleagues of tunneling our vision since, because of specialization, I reckon the arguments being proffered here must take the little slant / biases of the Military Branch preponderantly expressing itself– in this case it clearly the Air-force. But the Fly-boys will be first to acknowledge any war with UG will be short and crisp, multi-faceted, involving all our Military-Civilian capabilities not least of course being those Tigers III you conclude are “out-marched by the SU300MKK” (by form-book alone, and I disagree they are out-marched). From a broader Military strategic perspective as I indicate above, whatever tactical advantage the SU30MKK form-book portends are wiped out and far outweighed by the counter-force that we can bring to bear upon these birds and their support structures. For instance, they have to get airborne to project their much touted capacities against them TIGER III, and I can guarantee you we can ensure they never get wheeled out of their bunkers – already in simulated training!! Should our Delta teams miss out any of them on the Ground, they will have to land outside UG to refuel or die! Hell, best option for M7 will be to ship them off to Kigali at the first sign of open Hostilities with us!! I repeat, for UG to reap any benefits of those SU-30MKK, it will involve much, much more than just training some ground crews and jockeys to fly them. But against Kenya, he will have to do even much more than that – revolutionize his Military Philosophy and re-define his Military Doctrine completely. Ours focuses on multi-components of Warfare (Military-Civilian), and prepares for synchronized, coordinated responses. So phasing out those Tigers III will not be in reaction to the SU30MKK in our neighborhood
AFTER doing lots of research and finding that indeed Uganda is purchasing these fourth generation air superiority fighters…..the SU30MKK….WE NEED TO URGENTLY RETHINK our defence strategy quickly.We cannot trust M7.HE IS even talking nuclear…..the third generation second hand F5 tigers we are buying from JORDAN WILL do us no good.
THREE SU30MKK WITH good pilots can have complete air dominance over kenyan airspace very quickly…we need answers now and quickly…
am not so sure about that patrick understand what son of Nkarei says. those birds alone cannot translate to complete air superiority. i am still of the opinion it would not hurt for us to acquire some new birds not to phase out the tigers but to lend support in certain areas the tigers may fall short, for civilian morale and deterence value and also a little national pride on my part but tactically 12 tiger IIs and 15 tiger IIIs are more that a match for 6 or even 10 SU 30 MK2s.
in order to completely tackle this issue assess the military doctrines and SOPs of the two nations plus the mindsets of essential civilian and military assets while heading into a conflict. The ugandans will probably mass near the border with no intention of penetrating or gaining any acreage in the early phases of the war (remember we speak hypothetically) while we would have implemented Long Range Reccon deep inside enemy territory, sabotage and disinfo ops and a few tactical takeouts (i would gladly put a bullet between a SU 30 mercenary pilot’s eyes). hinging an entire war effort on those few birds as good as they might be is suicidal. what would happen if in one swoop 2 of them were taken out on the ground, 1 in a non combat accident and another 2 taken out by air defenses?notice i have not included a single tiger in this very likely scenario. we are talking a complete breakdown in morale. in any case given the multi faceted strategy kenya would employ in such a conflict the flankers would soon find themselves overstretched and overwhelmed unless the Ugandans decide to ship them off to Kigali their only option in doing this would be to use them inside ugandan airspace only. they should get 6 more to get me quacking in my jungle boots.
and no i also dont think M7 can go nuclear. he said he desires a nuclear free world. even he is not that crazy. but in meeting with Ahdminejad (hard name isnt it) you have to wonder………..hey the CGS was recently in Israel. this crazy world we live in.
THIS IS PURELY FICTIONAL, NOT AT ALL A CONTINGENCY PLAN OF THE ARMED FORCES OF KENYA – JUST FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ALONE.
Operation LAZA M7.
Day 1. At 04H30 Open Hostilities with Uganda, Pathfinder elements of 20th Paras HALO-jump off KAF Transport Planes and abscalling out of Puma Helios; take and hold Entebbe; SU-30MKK destroyed on the ground in Entebbe.
06H30 – deep-insertion Delta & CDU long embedded inside UG have paralysed /crippled the entire UDPF Command & Communication/ Control structure; staging fields East of Mbarare / South of GULU taken out – mined or cratered.
Accelerated large-scale 20th Paras landings at Entebbe, surburbs Kampala. Strategic Positions taken / taken out. Large-scale population fragmentation tactics by Delta and CDU – Civies flee, Kampala empties .
Full-strength Armored break-out through Busia, Malaba and several other border points at speed. Engineers, Mechanized Infantry and Artillery Divisions in full chase.
08H00 All other Combat Aircraft, both fixed and rotary winged wiped out in their bankers parking aprons by KAF Tac-wing and deep-insertion Delta and CDU, Dog-fights Eastern Uganda
10H00 50th Air Calvary Killer-MD 500 ranging along Advance deep-franking this egress, all hard/fortified positions by-passed for later attention. Tororo encircled , by-passed, Armored pincer- columns move on full-tilt toward Kampala. Ground troops jump off Border, destroying by-passed fortified position, consolidate Strategic points and mop-up behind Advance.
12H00. Heavy selective 120mm Artillery bombardment of Kampala Suburbs, target-ranging by the Delta & CDU. KAF F5E Tigers and Air Calv MD 500, WZ-9s Helios weapons-free over Kampala. Marauding lead 81st Armored T-72 MBTs in the suburbs of Kampala City with the MD 500 and WZ-9s in tow. KAF full Tac-CAP ring Eldoret to Mbarare/ Kabale, Air suppression attained entire UG. Exit Funnel to Western Sector created.
18H00 The UPDF stream out of Eastern Sector in full rout through Exit Funnel towards Mbarare Western Uganda, Helio-borne Delta & CDU, Air Calv MD 500, WZ-9s Helios, F5E Tigers, 81st MBTs in search-and-destroy sorties .
Day 2. Hon. Kikwete, Kagame, Meles, Kabila, Clinton, Aanan fly into Nairobi.
Intensive FBU in Kampala another two days Delta, CDU,1stbtn 3rd btn 20th btn KAR, 50th Air Calv, KAF CAP engaged; organised, coordinated resistance wiped out in Kampala ,
Day 3. M7 arrive in Nairobi, sues for peace.
Hold-Position orders issued. ALL FORWARD MOVEMENT CEASES.
Interesting,
Ole Nkarei, i thought it might be good to include what responses the UPDF might offer during the various phases of war. They will want to salvage some National pride hence will not take the beating lying down. What do you thing the patern of their response will look like?
First hypothesis is that the objective of this Action is not economic, and therefore holding of ground captured, but a clear and unequivocal political statement for a either change of leadership or attitudes of present regime to Kenya. So that the objective is basically to capture and hold even for a short while the seat of Government in UG. Consequently military action would be a quick, crisp, campaign using maximum and overwhelming force, waging a rapidly developing, highly mobile war to take Kampala in the shortest period. Even a partial occupation of the seat of power would suffice this objective.
UG options at this (Day 2)moment would be rather limited, and none with any immediate military or political benefit. Since we would not be aiming to subjugate and economically exploit our advance, considerations by M7 for an armed drawn-out resistance through unconventional means would not have substance. At this point, his Military Council will advise M7 to sue for peace or get rid of him themselves.
The political angles and ramifications of this vista is not my concern, am just a grunt seeing this purely from a military prism.
THIS IS A BELATED POST MEANT FOR SPEARHEAD, kenya-ace, patrick(uk) and D
You have posted a site having several derivatives of Su’s. we are concerned with the the Su-30MKK. This is our ball of contention. On my posting dated on April 16, 2010 at 8:43 pm and below it I outlined its performance visa vie other Su30. the Su30mkk is similar to the Chinese J-11 in most aspect. This aircraft performed poorly with the Chinese Airforce . Obsolete avionics, radar and lack of true precision-strike capabilities(only able to deliver unguided freefall bombs
) lead to the Chinese abandoning it. Its radar the N001 radar can track 10 targets, but during engagements with 1, the rest 9 targets tracked would be lost. a new retracking process after the engagement had to be started. It lacks 4.5th generation capabilities. This lead to the Chinese abandoning it and upgrade it to J-11B or the SuMKK3.
read through this web page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11#Modern_J-11
To summaries it up the Su30MKK2 lacks the true cababilties of a 4.5th generation fighter.
At the moment any aspect of the Su-30MKK2 can be dealt with. Just like a football team, employing good strikes doesn’t warrant an out right win. From the side line coaches to the resever bench all have to play their parts and be ready. The team has to hold up as a team and every department has to functioning in order to win. You and I know that if 50% of your force is destroyed then troop moral falls and you will certainly loss the battle and eventually the war.
They is nothing that the Su30 has that we can’t deal with. Kindly posts some if you know I will be glad to discuses it.
To D, we can’t stop the will of a nation to launch an offensive. We can’t scare them for that matter its up to them. If they think they are able well and good. In fact in my opinion I wish them the best let them move ahead and mount one. The country is well prepared. The troop carrier you posted are good crafts. my favorite would be the Y-8F400
VERY intresting snapshot of war analysis…but you have not shown the rate of attrition on the kenyan side for instance at the end of the first 6 hours what sort of casualties do we expect on both sides…and by the way how come body armour is not standard equipment among our troops?…anyway i agree with you that the key to winning a war with UG lies in a rapid and massive mobilisation of all assetts …more like the “blitzkriegg” that HITLER used to overrun Poland in second world war where in two weeks the polish army had surrendard likewise france….fell within 30 days. but in kenya uganda situation can we sustain a war for more than 14 days?and supposing that we are attacked on two fronts eg all shabab from the east and ugandans on the west?
by the way have the TIgers been delivad?when do kenyans get to see them in public? june 1st or october 20th
All said and done, our military planners must have taken note of the new developments and hopefully will be coming up with full proof counter measures. I’ am sure even TZ will not want to be caught off-guard.
You ever wonder how Galang Heliocrash? First the world knew of this was by a encrypted short burst sat-com picked up by American NSA satellites over the Central Africa that Kenya Air Defense “ has confirmed a Helio down in frames”. Galang had been in negotiations with M7to construct a enormous rail, road bypass Juba-Kampala, furthering American designs to base their Central African activities from UG due to M7 “unique characteristics” since Kenya under Narc had become unreliable and to assertive of Nationalistic independence. The consequence would have changed the geopolitical-economic map of entire great-lakes region beyond recognition with a transference of the pivotal position to UG from Kenya. Previously long agreed pact with Kenya & SPLA was Juba-Nakuru-Mombasa, and Juba-Isiolo-Lamu. Ergo – Galang designated a “clear-and-present-danger” to National Interest of Kenya, and a legitimate focus for our aggressor-attention. His activities/movement under covert surveillance every step, reverse flight from Mbarare flight-plan already consistent to earlier intel, tracked right up to crash site. Unluckily some deep-insertion Delta chaps in crash area before the helio went down, and generally sanitized it prior to the noisy Americans arrival from base in Djibouti, got caught on NSA eavesdropping satellite
Delta4, remember as a soldier your obligation is not only to protect the nation in times of aggression but also not to divulge potentially flammable information that can endanger ongoing and future ghost operations. Information that isn’t on the public domain shouldn’t be divulged much less in a forum with a shockingly wide readership as this one. Keep your skin safe.
That being said, the Kenya armed forces isn’t a political party and some sentiments expressed here might not necessarily be true and in fact may just be by products of a highly creative and patriotic mind.
DELTA 4…can you explain what you mean….what are you saying here?
Pat. it is not coded, but in the clear. Raise specifics queries, and lets me respond, if I can.
just to put it out there am a full red blooded kenyan green berret to the core if i argue counter measures to kenyan military actions its for the blog’s continuity sake.make no mistakes about where my allegiance lies. having said that i think all the uniforms in this page have maintained exceptional professionalism and steered clear of unsubstantiated political conspiracy theories (read Delta4).
ok now that we have that in the clear, i turn my attention to the Col’s hypothetical battle plan. i find it tactically sound,simple and realistic. but as you know sir nothing in war ever goes according to plan. i would be weary of the Uganda Spec. Forces the so called Mamba Battalion situated in Bombo Barracks, i have had personal contact with em they aint no D Coy but boy are those boys tough. Spetnatz trained in unconventional warfare, they are the cream de la cream of the UPDF. i met a contingent of them during the war games in TZ a few years back when i was still green in the horns and i tell you if the bridge on Jinja kampala Road is not secured and its perimeter cleared those guys will get to it and sabbotage it to prevent the 81st from reaching kampala. that area is a jungle. so driving those T-72s through is next to impossible, getting the sappers to dig a road through is also out of the questions coz it will take too long i suggest flashing those men out of their base with some intense bombing at the commencement of hostilities. at the least disorient them and separate the juniors from the chain of command also be sure to send in elements of an infantry btlln with arttie support in a search and destroy mission through this forest or at least to keep the remnants of this elite UPDF unit busy. after that be sure to capture towns like Iganga and Jinja in my view they are more strategically placed than Tororo. while in Jinja secure Kakira airstrip for use as an FOB for 50th ACB and Heli transports.
am interested in the afternath after colonel garangs helicopter crash…
Pat, what dayaymean the aftermath of the Crash? From what perspective do you refer? DO you perharps intend to ask who benefitted from this crash, and who lost what? Or how the event was written such that no subsequent queries about it arose? C’mon, man, be clear. And while you are about it, mull over the insidious silence of the SLPM leadership post the Mourning period, and why just a few years later there is little mention of Galang in the SPLM leadership beyond the annual half-hearted commemoration of the death. Have you seen any overt rapproachment between Silva Kir and M7 since the funeral? Beyond the ocassional cross-border meeting? Any further talk about egress through Kampala to Juba? After Galang went, Southern Sudan is still firmly the 9th integral Province of Kenya, as it had been for years. In espionage and black ops, what you see is not ever what you get.
Granted “D”on all points. The simulation isnt written on stone, just a quick hip-shot to get attention away from the fly-boys jinking around with these fighter terminologies that are simply in the ozone layer for most of us!! But seriously, how then did you rate a Mamba coy against our green berets coy? Their equipment both Machine and Man? Leadership, education and training, esprit of Corp, motivation, cohesiveness, etc.? Most importantly how did you reckon their interface with the gum-booted colleagues ? Unit-size mobility and displacement? You reckon they do cross-training also, like we do, or are they not just tough SOB with an AK? What if covert insertion teams with the AirCalv isolated them and kept them busy within a secure perimeter? The simulation rotates around a very rapid armoured push along a broad advance secured by bridgeheads taken and held by air-borne troops, with flanking deep ranging combat Fixed and Rotary wings in support on full attack mode. In real-time simulations however, and you bloody well know this, it is possible to take and hold Jinja bridge with air-borne units until Armoured Units provide relief. Jinja is the only real strategic obstacle to Kampala, and for economic reasons, UG will NOT destroy it in any short exchange with Kenya. Get a few of your guys and mull over this simulation.
By the way, the Galang thing might not be a hypothesis. Just sniff around your reliable colleagues in Delta and CDU.
hamujambo my kenyan brothers. You are in deep denial. You no longer posses a superior air force. The capabilities of the SU 30 overmatch any thing in the KAF and besides you keep talking about just the six sukhois but that’s not the entire fleet. This is part of the fleet that is known (as you may now know the Ugandan government prefers to keep its arsenal a secret that’s why they were mad at the Russians for breaking the news about the SU purchase) 8 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Floggers and 10 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Fishbeds, 5 Aero L-39 Albatroses, one Aermacchi SF-260, and 6 Mil Mi-24 Hind, with five further ‘Hinds’ unserviceable. This is what is known nobody knows the exact arsenal apart from the high military commanders. Most of their purchases are done hush hush through arms dealers like victor bout.
Now about the infantry; there is that no nonsense commando outfit of the black mamba and the PGB which museveni intends to transform into the most elite force in africa (his son the Fort Leavenworth and sundhurst trained colonel belongs to this unit) to contend with that is besides the regular army.
People there is a reason why the US and UK use uganda as the policeman/mercinary of the region. They trust their capabilities. And stop this talk about kenya being a strong alley to the US. You have Washington snub kibaki and odinga year after year while they are not asking museveni to pay the fine assessed on him for looting congo and other issues with opposition politicians. Yes there was a time kenya was a favored by the west but that mantle has been taken over by Uganda and Rwanda also getting some pity because of the genocide.
So wajama snap out of the denial (its not a river in egypt. I don’t why white ppl say that since its source is in uganda)
Sadly the action by UG to arm themselves with sophisticated SU-30MK2s will have far reaching security implications in the region and will only lead to a renewed arms race that will not cease any time soon.
Tororo, we are not in denial and neither are we downplaying the threat from your newly acquired arsenal which i must say appears to give you the upper hand on paper at least for now. Suffice is to say that we have taken note and will be responding appropriately. Let’s see who will sustain the tempo of the arms race which you have sadly provoked.
Finally we will care less if UG and Rwanda are now Washington’s blue eyed boys in the region. There is not much to be gained there especially in the light of all the conditions they attach to everything they offer. We are much better off with the East (read China ). Good luck for you though.
You will have noticed that since 2002, we have increasingly moved east. This has paid dividends and we have no apologies to make. Also we no longer need to obey some useless conditions.
Lest you forget, we still host large US and British military facilities in this region. We will not lose sleep if they choose to relocate to UG.
Hey “D”- you know Intelligence activities and all their Component such as those Delta4 insinuates on the Galang crash, start off a mere conspiracies with interpretations of National Policies, both foreign and domestic , that define National Growth. The Delta and CDU are but simply extensions of clearly but politically developed National Policies. Guys spend full days, months on ends analysing every bit of information that would have impact on National Growth, following which yet other guys spend full days, months on end interpreting the picture that develops. Subsequently other groups of guys then follow through making contingencies based on the interpretations arrived. Finally these contingencies are placed before planning units of such fellas as Delta and CDU, and if the political decision to use the spearhead of the whole process going on before is taken, in they go!! A hell of a lot of work goes into these things. The Galang Chopper was part of the Ferry-team assigned to M7 air transportation, flown and serviced by Ukrainians. Just returned to UG from extensive overhaul and refitting abroad. Now factor in the prognosis contained in Delta4 post, without wearing blinkers, particularly remembering the political realities of greater East Africa at the time. And for the sake of military arguments, you still think this is idle unsubstantiated Gossip?
Tororo,
You really amuse me when you say that there is a reason why UK and US prefer to use Uganda as the policeman of the region.
Which region are you referring to? East Africa or Central Africa?
If it is Central Africa then you may be right for both Kenya and Tanzania will be far off anyway and we know you are the undisputed champion there.However if you are referring to East Africa then you are dead wrong for you will have to contend with both Kenya and Tanzania before you can crow.
And when i say Central Africa, i mean areas around DRC, Burundi and Rwanda. Beyond there you meet other powerful forces much better than you.
Has it occurred to you that you could be a proxy for someone else to plunder the resources of DRC? Think big brother and see the big picture. This might help to explain your policeman business.
Your contribution is welcome Tororo but we don’t live in denial.
A few cold FACTS for you brother. The F-5E’s in our arsenal brother are not junk fighters. The F-5E is an excellent fighter which is cheap and easy to maintain- but it still packs a formidable punch.
The F-5E is fondly known as “the baby fighter that takes on the top-guns”(ask any tactical pilot in the USAF who has flown against this baby fighter and he will put your questions to rest). Even the RJAF pilots from where we bought our birds have flown it in mock dogfights with USAF F-15’s and the kill ratios were close to 1:1 in close quarter combat( W.V.R forget B.V.R).
The Tiger is still in wide use throughout the world even by developed countries such as Switzerland. Austria at one time even leased some Tigers from the Swiss as a stop-gap measure before they got the Typhoon.
Since you have started an arms race in the region because of your newly found oil wealth, lets see if you’ll be able to sustain it.
By the way, acquiring six Su-30’s enhances your capabilities on paper but it takes more than that to send shivers down the spines of fly-boys in the KAF. With all due respect, and I repeat again, with all due RESPECT, we can clobber you senseless while posing minimum risk to ourselves- anytime, any day with or without your Flankers. My brother, it takes years to train a combat pilot( or are you planning to hire Russian mercenaries in this case) and it’s skill that matters up in the air. Let me pause my comments for now…. I’ll be back in a short while.
Dr. Garangs death was a life changing event in this region. it was mysterious, that i do not dispute and i also know deep down that it wasnt an accident, au contraire it was pre planned and human executed. what i think is hogwash is the attempt to outrightly pin it on M7.if the man had anything to do with it i think he was purely a hatchet man and nothing more, the general dynamics and behind the scenes happenings of this event point to more powerful forces at play. just ask yourself who is to benefit come the birth of a new nation in the region with richness of resources. its an open secret who funded the SPLA, the veterans and refugees still get paid in green bucks, SPLA bank accounts are well known in the intelligence circles to be registered to western registered cover companies, then all of a sudden when SPLA becomes SPLM guess who turns east and is eventually killed for his troubles. all this can be substantiated through a little research if you have the resources. what cannot be proven is the story of saying M7 took him out, ask yourself what did he have to gain southern Sudan has never and will probably never be pro Uganda.
now to matters combat where i am more at home, welcome Mr. Tororo. i feel the need to copy paste Kenya Ace’s post on this issue. If the SU 30s look strong on paper then on paper they have already been beaten. check out the posts above on the counter measures KAF has at its disposal to deal with thee flankers.
TO mr olekoima and Kenya Ace I didn’t post to prove any kind of supiriorty and it not like am trying to down grade Kenya or Tz.( I have huge admiration for both countries esp Kenya since it is near Tororo where I spent some of my childhood and darn I miss UG) But some of the postings here looked like They knew almost nothing about Uganda militarly and politically and that’s what I was trying 2 point out.
Mr Ace like I said these suhkois have just become The tip of the arrow (and yes, they will be most likely flown by Russian mercenaries while the Ugandans get trained but who says that’s a bad thing? Think Halliburton and executive outcomes who are very effective in what they do), the other part being the migs 21& 23 that were redesigned by the Israelis. So you will be going against a formidable force.
The SU30s were revied by USAF at red flag and even they contend that to march its capabilities you need an F16 or better aircraft.
Now some other point mr olekoima, Uganda is not just given instructions on who or what to deal with. Remember them brushing of US and UK to host Gaddafi, Ayitolah Komeni and even the lunatic Ahmedinajad (sp ?) and there is a significant presence of the Chinese in KLA and ooh I had forgotten the North Korean leader Kim ying nam. So I don’t think KLA could have done all “these terrible things” (in the eyes of the west at least) and receive no warning if they didn’t command a certain level of respect from the west.
Now all am saying is lets come down on all this military might talk because if it were to happen, furniture will get moved if you know what I mean. What Kenya should concentrate on is to find a way to keep itself ahead economically in the region cause who knows that oil money may catapult UG ahead of you there too.
Mr D I really don’t want to get in this Garang Discussion but you are wrong to say that Southern sudan is and never will be pro UG. Garang used to move in KLA freely like he was in juba, it was his haven and SPLA (the reason Bashir decided to also help the LRA) and On my few holidays I noticed his son set up some kind of base there too ( he is friends with my cousin and he practically never leaves ug). To the conspiracy theorists some alleged that Kiri was chosen by M7 ( but this is something am not interested in). S.sudan uses the international code of Uganda to receive calls, I have seen dinka men (we all know how s.sudanese look like) use Ugandan passports, the ugandan shilling was becoming quite popular in s.sudan that the s.sudanese government had to think of creating their own currency recently. So…
Tororo,
A credible economic analyst was quoted saying that for Uganda to be where Kenya is today,even with petrol dollars,it will be a minimum of 20 years.This suggests Kenya has to hibernate in order for ug to lead in any front.As for the issue of southern sudan,any reliable source will tell you that southern sudan is a creation by Kenya to act as a buffer zone against Northern sudan.We can always attack north through the south if need arises.
AS for uganda being a threat to us,that will only happpen when a cow gives birth to a hen.it simply will never happen.The necessary apparatus to choke Uganda and set it ablaze are always in place and the scheeme to fly kenyan flag in Kampala has never been far away.Any honest ugandan general will attest to this.The arsenal in Kenya inventory outguns Uganda by a magin of 20 to one.I cant wait for Ug and their arrogant attitude to be compelled that kenya is an easy pick.This is the day when ill strap the boots and bring home one of those stetson hats thats mu7 been wearing.i can put my money on this.
There you go with the denial that I was talking about. Hmm one man Army!?. I based my report on IMF and World Bank statistics and projections of east Africa, who are your sources mr one man army? Denail denial denial……….. It won’t your situation. You either embrace the situation or it will still swallow you. And stop that chest thumping like a little kid, what did you do when UG had troops in Kenya during the election aftermath? I will tell you, NOTHING.
This is grown Folks discussion now act like it
Galang was taken out by Kenya, “D”, that is what the clutter from Delta4 is all about. M7 had nothing to do with it, infact was doing his damndest to entice Galang away from Kenya, where Southern Sudan has belonged for nearly 40years, and to go with M7 come their Ceasefire with the North. M7 is essentially a war-leader and sees all things from the Zero-sum prism. Did you do your sniffing around your pals in Delta and CDU yet, mate?
Tororo,
You are poisoning your otherwise mature comments by your answer to ‘one man army’ above. During the post election violence i can’t recall a situation whereby the Kenyan military and that of Uganda were engaged in a confrontation, so let’s leave that out. If indeed the Ugandan army crossed into Kenya, then it was with the full knowledge of Kenyan commander in chief hence expected no response from their Kenyan counterparts.Remember i have said if( read Iff).
We know that Uganda upgraded her MiG 21s to MiG 2000 bis in Israel ( equivalent to MiG 29 ). We know you have seven ex-Libya MiG 23s too thus it is not right to say we are in denial. We closely monitor all developments in the region so that we develop adequate counter measures.
As for the Su-30s, we will respond to their threat as well.
I know you will also say that you have occupied Migingo Island and we Kenyans have done nothing. We prefer to give dialogue a chance first for armed conflict is gravely costly.
Tororo, in posting these comments we are not targeting Uganda. In fact we Kenyans do not see the possibility of fighting Uganda any time soon. There is a lot we can lose if war breaks out between the two nations. This is also true of Tanzania. Our areas of concern are actually to the North and the East, but we must take precautions nonetheless.
Kenyan defense doctrine is defensive in nature. This means that we are unlikely to be the ones to start war. We can only be provoked to it and we have adequate capability.
I had the privilege of being deployed in KLA and parts of eastern UG during the post election period, the disruption of supply lines to Uganda was devastating to UG’s economy, remember we are not talking about fuel only here. basic commodities like plastics and other domestic knick knacks from Ug come from kenya. in the venet of war it would be a total shutdown of the Ugandan economy and way of life, think about it even the fiber optic cables essential for exchange of data securely passes through kenya however i doubt if ever there was to occur open hostilies it would be economical.
Arab Israeli war: the mighty Israeli Airforce was pinned down by superior SAM defences. Fact UG has no way to counter Kenyas superiority in this sector,
ELM2032 radar: this eye in the sky installed in the F5 has better range and target tracking abilities than the radar suit of the SU30. fact UGs aquisition of SU30s was in fact an attemt to balance this out.
FACT: UG remains out gunned, out manouvered and out though by Kenya Army in all spheres of groung warfare, armour, artillery, covert ops you name it. you are in fact the one in denial little has changed in terms of military balance in the region.
i forgot to mention our better trained and equipped navy can and will make better use of lake victoria in the event of war.
i find the comments by “D” interesting and maybe part fiction….you say you were deployed in ug during the post election violence…doing what when kenyans were on fire and on the brink of collapse?
Patrick,
For a person with apt knowledge on military matters i find your question shallow to say the least. am a soldier mate i dont vote, i dont count votes or supervise elections, in fact i have nothing to do with anything electroral, gee in our squads we dont even vote to see who takes the point an who guards the rear. in short what i am saying is i was doing my job weeks before the elections started and weeks after. remember when we swear allegiance during our passing out its to the office of the C in C not the man sitting in the office.
D” the only fighter planes in the KAF is the F5 the other planes are either trainers or transport planes. Now compare that to UG’s mig 21s and 23/29 (17 in total) which are actual fighter jets then add on the superior suhkois, you find that you are actually out gunned, it would not be a battle for air supremacy here. (u can point out the experience of the Israel and Arab war but Kenyan pilots are not that experienced or that devoted am sorry I have to point that out and like you said they may be going against tough Russian mercenaries)
The new acquisition in the UG air force by the way just has not raised antennas in the great lakes region alone. Even the western countries are wondering what Uganda intends to do with this kind of aircraft in this region cause nobody else has a weapon as this. The closest competitor would be the SA which uses the JAS 39 Gripen and Egypt that uses F16s as the primary fighter and they have them in great numbers. The other possible air force was the agolian one which uses also SU25/27 and mig 21. Most think tanks were suggesting that ug gets mig 29s which they still considered an over kill for the region (these military think tanks think this region is only fit for a few trainers and world war two fighter jets). So the only solution/ remedy to this would be for Kenya or Tz or congo, Sudan to get something of equal or higher power (there by starting the arms race that every one was afraid of) otherwise as far as the observers and right thinking people are concerned this air supremacy battle is now in favor of ug.
Mr olekoima, when I spoke of that incidence of UG troops being in Kenya it was not to chest thump but it was for people like army of one who just go around proclaiming how that would be the day he would also pick up a gun. This was to show him that such a thing would happen and he as a civilian would just watch as those military trucks moved right by his front door and he wouldn’t do shit.
What D said about an economic blockade could well hurt the Ug population but would not greatly affect our infantry. Let me tell you this, those boys marched through the Congolese jungle up to Kinshasa. These are battle hardened soldiers not merely going through some drills because it doesn’t matter how much simulation you do, the real thing is quite different. Ask some marine friends (who go through some realistic training) if you have any.
Precisely my view Tororo. Uganda has provoked an arms race which we were all afraid of.
Sincerely i don’t see a situation where Kenya, Tanzania and even Sudan will accept to live with intimidating fighter jets next door.They will therefore attempt to go for compensating alternatives and what do we get? a spontaneous arms race which will be hard to stop.Uganda with the advantage of oil wealth might get excited and go a notch higher hence a vicious cycle of arms acquisition.That is not all, there are high prospects of striking oil also in Kenya and Tanzania, in fact TZ has already struck gas thus the neighbours might not be constrained for cash for long.
One question though is what exactly does UG need the sophisticated jets for? I’ am sure this is the question in the minds of most neighbours who will be bound to respond to this ‘ threat ‘ rather fast on account of suspicion.
Looking at UGs threat matrix one is left at a loss as to where the Sukhois will fit. They are obviously not meant for Joseph Kony’s LRA while for the neighbours we could say it is only DRC or Sudan which could be of concern, but this countries are currently in chaos and unable to threaten Uganda. The others i.e Kenya, Tanzania and Rwanda are (like Uganda ) members of EAC hence possibility of hostilities with any of them is at present very minimal, but you never know.
One could have expected UG to( in modernizing her military )strengthen her COIN capability given her security concerns in the north, but choosing to embolden her offensive capability instead will surely have neighbours reeling with suspicion.It does not help matters when UG pursues what is sometimes miss- construed as an expansion tendency.
All said and done, it will still be difficult for Uganda to win a war on the basis of fighter jets alone. A massive upgrade of virtually everything will need to be done to match the capability of the Sukhois. Attention has to be paid on the air defense capability in order to protect and keep the planes air borne whilst guarding against possible pre-emptive strike from a hostile and threatened country. The sukhoi’s in built radar will be of no use when the planes are in the hangers hence a radar upgrade may be needed too.
Well we can only wait and see the unfolding scenario.
Tororo,
First a point of correction on your comments above. The F-5 is not the only fighter plane in Kenya’s arsenal. We have BaE Hawk 52 which in addition to being used for training is also a FGA. The real trainers are the Bulldog and the Tucano. However the Tucano has hard points and can also be used as a light ground attack fighter.
The MiG 23( ground attack) in Uganda’s arsenal is not equivalent to the MiG 29 as you put it above. It is the MiG 21 which was upgraded to MiG2000 bis and can therefore be said to be close to the MiG29.
Now my question. What is the source of you data above? You have put the MiG 21s and MiG23s at 17. I thought there were only seven ex-Libyan MiG23s and Six MiG21s one of which crashed in December 2008. Where do the others come from?
And yes before i forget, the rotary wing tank killers in Kenya’s arsenal number 39 in number i.e 35 MD 500 defenders and 4 WZ-9s with more coming. All these add up to about 70 war planes before factoring in the lighter Tucanos. In effect this is still a formidable force.What do you think?
Tororo,
You speak as if the arms race was over and Uganda has already won.i have info i am willing to share with you that out of the 7 original MiG 23s only 3 are flight worthy the rest are slowly being cannibalized for parts, the MiG 21s have fared slightly better one did crash in 2008 another in 2003 2 are in reserve having being termed surplus to requirements (that means it is more expensive to keep them flying than servicing them or you dont have qualified pilots) that leaves you with 2 operational Mig 21 at your disposal. now with 3 MiG 23s and 2 Mig 21 BiS against 30 upgraded tiger III with ELM2032 BVR radar am sure you would understand why they were not being factored into the UG airfoce plans and it is for that reason that M7 decided to go for the SU30s its not a mystery its a simple airforce modernization plan. It took the Arabs 20 years to reap the benefits of milions of barrels of oil output a day. UG produces far less its projected oil income would only be able to slightly tip the revenue from kenyan tuorism industry in its first 5 years of commercial exploitation. even then remember you fund slightly less that 60% of your annual budget while Kenya funds 98% of its bugdet. translation…you are far more into debt and before the oil is commercially viable you will need to get into a lot more debt.
in short kenya’s financial muscle is undeniable in the region even you especially coming from Tororo would have to agree to that.it is impossible to win an all out arms race.
i agree uganda CAN NOT WIN AN ALL out arms race…and we need to be told why M7 is doing this….but kenya must counter this threat at once…all this posturing from uganda must stop…or we are in for a generation of arms races which we do not need now
it would be interesting to hear from you Mr. Tororo how UG plans to counter BUK air defenses Kenya has.
Tororo are you in uniform? If so in which discipline? i would like to have a healthy discussion. i will send you details on your military. counter check them then we debate more on your standings.
Uganda is no threat to Kenya with 6 Su30MKK. if you are willing to engage let do it in a professional atmosphere. I will send you names and details you will confirm and we shall discuses
Tororo educates himself from links and websites on matters military – he may have served though. See the extent of the readership of this blog? Told you lotsa of Desk-types now poring through it from all corners!!!So lets also play our cards close to our chests, fellas, on details, eh. Kinda sneek in our little bit of smoke & some thunder too, won’t hurt seeing as to how in we are, at least intellectually and in simulation, “on war-mode” with our eastern neighbour.
D, Raissi, Olekoima looks like this maight be my last post cause they more I try to argue my position the more I will reveal myself. I would real love to continue this debate but I can argue my points without getting deeper and deeper into things that are considered classified in UG (Uganda defense is one of high secrecy. Revealing details of even the silliest thing as a patrol could be turned into a charge of either espionage or treason) so I will just follow the discussions without any input. But to answer some question; D about the Radar defense system Uganda previously had a variant of the patriot defense shield built by Israelis that covered mostly kampala and Entebbe (this was leaked by someone else so I don’t hope to take heat for it ever) but people would ask why not the whole country? This was however addressed in 2007. Before confirmation of the common wealth meeting, there were concerns about security. The threat of an air attack from Sudan on western leaders (read the queen and British PM most notably) was a concern and there was talk of them not attending if this security was not secured. As you already know they all attended with even the next in line for kingship. So that will tell you of the developments in that area. (Sorry I can’t reveal what was done.) And well Mr ole nkarei am not getting my information from the internet (by the way does it exist in such detail about ug on the internet?) I would say I get it from the horse’s mouth or should I say am outside the barn.
Tororo,
I find the line of your arguement quite silly and not worth of my response.For you to sugest that the U.p.d.f was in Kenya during election chaos is to grossly miss the point.If they were here,it means they were invited by someone and were highly masquerading as someone else.What ive said is that if u.p.d.f was in kenya on an aggressive purpose either invading or conducting aggression thus initiating full response of Kenya armed forces,my next re-load position would be on outskirts of Kampala.Iw will be too easy to drive them all the way to kampala.Am not chest thumping or slinging pride here.All i know is war and ive been involved with u.p.d.f and their operations for so long.This is one force that i’ll count out in threat matrix against kenya army.i’ll pose a question to you:Given that the U.p.d.f is proclaimed here by you and others as a battle hardened force,how comes they haven’t defeated L.R.A by either reason or might given L.r.a is an outfit whose only major weapon is a mortar and a few heavy calibre weapons?Do you know how many hours it has taken Kenya army to wipe out such outfits?Last time i checked,any think tank in millitary matters hasd a very positive review of kenya army and a very negative one for u.p.d.f.Do you know how much Ug spends n military budget compared to kenya?Do you even know how up to date the necessary pieces to mount an operation against a modern army and not thugs fall in place for u.p.d.f?
Let me say this,U.p.d.f which is a political army put together to intimidate helpless population and political opponents lacks heavy bambardment capability,lacks effective transport and mobility,(read foot march to congo} lacks anti armor capabilities,lacks reliable airdefence capabilities,lacks reconnsance abilities,lacks forward offensive abilities and can be likened only to the well overated gumboot army of south sudan or rwanda.They dont count when it comes to a well trained and armed modern force like kenya army.I’d like you to do you home work.
Tororo,
Whilst sharing your concern, i must point out that most of what we have discussed here is actually in public domain.
Look all newspapers are awash with this Sukhois story.Does this expose anyone?
We have equally refrained from discussing the deeper details of the Kenyan military for fear of the same, but some information is readily available from reputable sources like the Janes defense weekly and i feel this does not hurt to discuss.
Kenyan military is equally secretive. A lot of this do happen behind closed doors and away from the public and the media.
Feel free to discuss the general information.
Haki ya nani Tororo you are honestly lying to us. You bought the patriot system to defend Her Majesty. Tell me again ndugu yangu Museveni picks up a phone and calls Israel. He tells them that he needs some Patriot missiles. The Israel patriot like is the SPYDER system. a country like India is dying to have this system. Ok let’s continue……Then after a few weeks the missiles arrives in Kampala. After the queen leaves, Israel decided after all its better off if they stayed in Kampala. Sudan to attack the queen and western leaders. That will be a national suicide. the Sudanese citizens will be up into the state house to pull out Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir before the allied amass in the Red sea and surrounding countries..
Salala !! what do you think this items are merchandised from a supermarket? You need time to train and man them? Give me anther story my friend. at least tell us you brought a Patriot unit on loan for that occasion .
Anyway lets talk what is on the surface and facts.
I wanted us to discus about the crashed MiG21. I will give you fact you can counter check on your Air force maintenance log books. Second a friend from the U.A.F I would like to have a clean talk. Nothing detailed a yes or no answer. simple questions like…Did the MiG,s radar warning receiver (which actuates when the aircraft is being tracked by fire control Radar) sound alarms every time that MiG tookoff ? yes or no very simple. Do you need the date and timing I can post them if you want.
I know that this blog is being followed by different EAST AFRICA ARMED FORCES OFFICERS form the comforts of there living rooms and cybercafés. Nothing official but lethal all in all. I also weigh my words. Let’s converse
You are quite right Risasi. I don’t believe Tororo on this patriot story. I read that with a pinch of salt.
At least i believe him when he says that the radar system only covers Kampala and Entebbe. I don’t think much has changed in this area.
Tororo, it is perfectly ok to be patriotic but don’t lie to individuals that posses the capability to critically analyze every word you said. In a previous posting you said “I have huge admiration for both countries esp Kenya since it is near Tororo where I spent some of my childhood and darn I miss UG” i highlight the “darn I miss UG”n part. Now unless you joined the U.P.D.F a few days after posting that comment i would have a very hard time believing ur fairy tale story on the patriot missile variant.
In Kenya i doubt if we are living in denial. Here are the facts as i know them. The U.P.D.F has absolutely no experience in waging a conventional war. In fact it is no more than a nationalised guerrilla army. Instead of strengthening the U.P.D.F, the war with the L.R.A has doomed the N.R.A to literary stagnate in it’s metamorphosis to a modern army. In case of a confrontation with an organised and modern army like the Kenya army the U.P.D.F will find it almost impossible to defend it’s bases. This is because in addition to most of the U.P.D.F equipment being known and catalogued by the Kenya(remember they pass through our territory when they are imported) The fact that U.P.D.F is a political army guarantees a healthy breeding environment for dissent and subsequently treason, the N.S.I.S and our military intelligence would be spoilt for choice in chosing spies amongst U.P.D.F ranks. Do not fail to put into consideration that the Kenya army has for all it’s life been simulating such situations in their war games and every new U.P.D.F barracks, battalion, or unit unit that has come into existence(Mamba bat included) since the fall of Obote has been factored into this equation.
Uganda faces a virtually impossible task in trying to defeat Kenya in a confrontation. I can not imagine how a T-55 can face off with a Vickers mk3 let alone a T-72 with Kontakt armor and hope for victory. I mean it is plain IMPOSSIBLE! What i would be carefull about is drawing ourselves into and insurgency within Uganda because the gumboot militia called U.P.D.F is almost equally skilled in this front. If i am forced however, i wouldn’t hesitate because with the Delta Coy, Rangers and the CDU with us what can M7 do against us?
guys this blog is getting very interesting. when i finish whatever I’m doing wherever I’m doing it I’ll relish posting comments here regularly.
As far as I know, the Patriot Anti-Ballistic Missile Defense System and other variants produced under the MTCR doctrine, exists only in Theatres that the Americans consider “forward-offense Defensive theatres” in the defense of American Interests. In Africa and the Middle-East, only Israel, Bahrain, Kuwait, Egypt and Saudi Arabia have the Patriot System, on an overlapped defensive deployment. Moreover the anti-Ballistic Missile Defense system isn’t intended to counter such puny threats mentioned in Tororo’s Post –categorized as largely one-shot, shoulder-carried limited range Missiles! It is for much more serious threats such as massed Attacks with against missiles of Intercontinental ballistic characteristics carrying extremely portent payloads. And It is also not available in a Bazaar in Kabul, or some arms-market in the Urals, as Tororo sorts of implies.
That UG prised an Anti-Missile Defense System from the Israelis as intimated, is indeed a preposterous claim. The Israeli Anti-Missile System is called The Arrow – a anti-ballistic missiles designed to fulfill a requirement for a theater missile defense system that would be more effective against ballistic missiles than the MIM-104 Patriot surface-to-air missile, produced by the Israelis under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).
It consists of the joint production hypersonic Arrow anti-missile interceptor, the Elta EL/M-2080 “Green Pine” early-warning AESA radar, the Tadiran Telecom “Golden Citron” (“Citron Tree”) C3I center, and the launch control center. The system is transportable, as it can be moved to other prepared sites.
Apart from Israel no country has yet to purchase a full Arrow system. The Indian government sought to purchase the Arrow system since 1999 however the U.S. vetoed Israel’s request to sell them, arguing that the sale would violate the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). In the late 1990s officials of Jordan expressed fears that any conflagration between Israel and Iraq or Iran would impact its territory. Benjamin Netanyahu offered Jordan “a defensive umbrella of Arrow 2”. Again, the U.S. vetoed Israel’s request to sell them the Arrow 2 missiles, arguing that the sale would violate the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR),
The Arrow system is among the alternatives to the proposed U.S. missile defense assets in Europe. Currently the Arrow system is incorporated into U.S. anti-ballistic capability in Europe, and remains a key element in the Missile Defense Agency’s plan for a layered missile defense architecture.
Each of these little suckers costs a cool USD4Million by 2009 rates – the price of soup-up Tiger III!!UG Defense spending of just over USD230Million 2009 covers running costs of their wasteful bandit-type military. Some procurement of normal Hardware probably but definitely not of any substantial magnitude as the Arrow without bilateral financing/barter-trading. UG does not even they have a working Radar system with the technical and hardware capacity to detect and map out terrain-hugging fast-movers!
This Tororo story has made my week. Anyway that’s what we expect from ill informed fanatics. They was a time back then I met a guy he works in the transport business. He tells me “you guys do you UG has the apache helicopter?” I am astonished. I ask him if he knows what it looks like. He says yes he has seen it in the newspaper during the gulf war. This gunship can delivery. And if the UG has got it , I tell myself UG has finally managed to do it right. After we fell out with USA she has been constantly training the ug army to bring it to a modern standard but supplying them with Apaches that’s way to far. So I tell the lad take my digital camera and the next time you see the apache take a pic. But be careful not to jeopardize your stay. So after a month or so I meet the guy again anxious to show me his findings. At the first glance I recognize its an Mi35. I explained it to him.
The main moral of the story is that with less knowledge things can get very confusing and you can draw wrong conclusions. And that’s what I think happened to Tororo. He might have got some insight of an Air defense system and he ends up concluding it was a patriot system.
Anyway according to the Geneva Convention which I respect and uphold , if an opponent raise a white flag then you shouldn’t attack him any farther. Ok Tororo I wish you the best in your endeavors feel free to pass by and share some talks.
P/S second some U.D.F personnel to this blog.
Mr Olekoima I appreciate your invitation to discuss this further but like I said I can’t debate further without getting deeper into information that is not for public consumption. Even in a chess game there comes a time when you have to use more than just the pawns and knights and got to the bishop and rook. Matter of fact your urging kind of suggests that you may be an intelligence officer (??). The story about the shot down mig is more due to Ground commanders insisting on an aerial attack despite poor weather conditions. The LRA inspite of Bashir’s support had no capabilities to down that jet. A claim as such is just like Alkaida claming they down an aircraft that went down in a sand storm.
Now to set a few things correct. I did not say that Uganda bought the actual patriot system but rather a VARIANT. (Look at the posting above). Some of these systems are designed by military contractors and remember that Executive Outcomes and silver Shadow (the mercenary entities deeply entrenched in Uganda) are quite capable of making these purchases on ug’s behalf. Prior to the common wealth meeting, the system in place was primarily for M7’s own protection and what he considered vital to him and there was no need for acquiring some thing as the patriot system since these are designed for heavy pay load armaments ( and of which the people with such fire power are his “masters”) but rather the smaller pay load that can be obtained by his neighbors. Now post 2007 there is something different and am not at liberty to say.
About supplies coming through Kenya; what comes through there is always legal and what Uganda knows won’t be perceived as a threat to Kenya. There is always the sky. A Russian Ilyushin crahed at entebtbe with unknown cargo (to the public at least) and UG cargo owns a Hercules.
Now One man army,A guy with your IQ should have a low voice too. I’ve come across decomposed bodies that are less offensive than you are.
You mentioned LRA but do you know where they are? The LRA has not been a problem in Ug since late 2006. Kony and his minions are moving between Dafur, deep in congo and CAR. When S.sudan gave U.P.D.F to operate there he was flushed out of S.Sudan and the same happened in Congo (garamba) but the congoles we unconfertable with U.P.D.F going deep into congo. But he won’t be safe where he is because the US congress just approved a legislation seeking a multilateral action against him. Look one man army, no one will ever know that you’ve had a lobotomy, if you wear a wig to hide to the scars and learn to control the slobbering. Calling you stupid would be an insult to stupid people. Let those with intelligent points discuss.
Tororo,
Unfortunately,your personal and heated attacks against me doesnt alter anything.Note that ive not fired a personal sortie against you.What ive stated is that should U.p.d.f be a bunch of lunatics and are misled into carrying out offensive actions which require counter from Kenya army,it will be another regime change operation in Uganda.Ugandan are not so good at electing their leaders somehow a military force from outside has to do it for them.
I would like to invite you to tell us how guerilla thugs turned army is able to threaten us.Just like one soldier stated above,the T55s,the few mig 24 gunships and the unserviceable mig 29s that Ug has does not even factor in.The u.p.d.f would have to dig in to avoid slaughter.But again come to think of it.Ug is our “inferior” brother and we would like to hope that they dont pick a fight with us.With a modern highly trained,hihly merchanized,highly mobile,highly lethal and profoundly professional army,kenya seeks to maintain a defensive posture and to advance peace in this region.
My point is that even a man with the brain of a goat knows that U.p.d.f is only a threat to its own and to pastrol communities who lose goats to some of those soldiers who have failed to tranform from a brute guerilla force.Its on record.
As for you Tororo and your insults,when you throw mad at clean men like myself,you are left with the biggest portion of the dirt.Your insults talk more about you and your character.We in kenya do not stoop that low to prove a point.In military circles your attack towards me would call for a declaration to war,a call to strap tight my boots and clean up my gun but i get it.All i can say is that i hope you are not and dont constitute membership in the so called u.p.d.f. If you do my appetite for Kenyan tea at kampala state house has never been so great.
Oh Tororo and One man army, please tone down. Let’s discuss facts without going personal.
Onemanarmy – stand down, soldier. Remember who we are, Kenya’s (and East & Central Africa’s) finest! I hazard to say that you may get your time enough probably sooner than you reckon to get “close and honest” with the Tororo, Spartan, and UPDF but that time ain’t now. Remember POW interrogation training at survival school, mate? Tororo has just done you in, buddy!! Anyway, we all know that UG has and what they have not, what they are never going to have. So if Mr. Tororo isn’t offering any credible counter that dilutes or obviates our Intel on the UPDF, then it is just smoke he is blowing – no offense intended Bra! The smoke screen put out about secrecy and National Security also doesn’t hold up, coz without any doubt Kenya Intelligence Pool on the UPDF is complete – we know what the UPDF knows, Period!! – and some more too. One soldier to another, then – some healthy respect even between adversaries is part of our Code, eh?
Please guys stand down and dont get into each others arc of fire…we should have healthy inteligent discussions without resorting to warped name calling…I BELEIVE most people on this blog have shown a more than enough sense of tolerance….lets discuss issues with a voices of reason…
HEY on other issues can someone please comfirm if the kenya navy will take steps to protect the new civillian ferries on the high seas from germany to kenya from somali pirates…?remember the case of MV FAINA?
Ok may be I have come on too strongly on some people on this site or may be am loosing my African sense of humor where exaggeration is acceptable either is a possibility. So am going to give a brief account on the events of 1978-79 Ug-TZ that maight be giving some people Crazy ideas. In October 1978 Amin sent his elite troops into TZ to fight his own troops that had mutinied and had retreated into TZ. Tanzanian troops tried to hold amin’s troops at the boarder but they were beaten all the way to kagera and held for 3 weeks. At this time there was a group of ug dissidents (obote, museveni etc) who had tried to overthrow amin twice (72 and 76) but failed who were now called into action. Amin’s elite troops were cut off from the Uganda boarder side by this group while the remobilized TZ army (from 40,000to over 100,000 including police prisons etc) started fighting for kagera by launching rockets at them. These troops retreated some through Rwanda but could not join their comrades because the ug dissidents had now further north and were fighting amins rescue in form of 2500 Libyan soldiers. The Tanzanians moved north too and were supposed to be giving attilary help but instead were booming indiscriminately and were actually about to take out some of the ug rebels who were advancing north. The town of masaka suffered huge damage because of this carelessness. The Tzs stayed here while the rebels pushed on to Entebbe and kampala which were over 200 kms away. After the fall of kla in April 1979(6 months after the war started) the Tanzanians were invited to stay as mediators to the now different factions which wanted to take over. Sham elections were held in 1980 and Nyerere helped his friend obote’s faction rig the elections and this is what sent museveni and his group back into the bush. So TZ involvement in the actual fighting is reduced from mutukula at the boarder and further reduces at masaka leaving the rebels to fight their way to the capital and then came in as a supposed referee. So any one trying to make any assumptions should take history and actual events into consideration before making any judgment.
This is meant to show that it’s never easy to take over a country. Note that it took the US a whole month to over throw the Taliban even with the help of the northern alliance.
So when someone says that they will strap on their boots and have tea in KLA in a week am left questioning his mental state. When the US and EU choose you (U.P.D.F) to train another country’s army (Somalia), that speaks highly of you and any posturing insinuating other wise will be treated with the contempt it deserves.
Am not in ug but I take time To know what exactly is happening in the whole great lakes region and it would be naïve of me to make comments on issues am not sure about. (That’s why I stay away from migingo until the survey is completed)
Tororo,
Thanks for your comments above. I’ am going to verify the bit about TZ’s role in whole fighting though.
For record, several countries are helping to train Somalia’s armed forces. These are Djibouti, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania( Police), and Uganda( about 1,500 men). Kenya for instance has completed training 2,500 men and will help to train some police officers as well. I think this is all part of a concerted effort by countries of the region to help Somalia to stabilize and get back to her feet.
We nevertheless appreciate the peace keeping role played by Uganda and Burundi in Somalia. Remember immediate neighbours were barred from playing this role.All other countries that previously pledged troops have chickened out and this is sad. Somalia’s problem is not only regional, but African as well which is why whole Africa must assist.
Patriots?Seriously?Wow i would like to see a patriot shoot down a BUK coz that was my original question how does UG intend to to bypass the Kenyan Ground Defence Missiles and the answer i get is Patriots.
Telling us a patriot can shoot down a BUK is unbelievable, you either dont know what a BUK missile system is and what its uses are or you have no idea what a Patriot missile is and what are its capabilities. In this case my bet is both. If the Israelis knew that you were buying Patriots with the Kenyan BUKs as its main intended target they would not have sold them to you. And what if they did any ground battery missile commander would not waste a Patriot by shooting it at a BUK its like trying to hit a mosquito with a hammer.
Mr. Tororo, please confirm you are uniformed military. Don’t disclose your formation, your discipline or your present tasking – are you a serving soldier, Man?
Gentlemen, i think the patriot story by Tororo cannot possibly be true. Indeed and as Ole Nkarei correctly puts it,the patriot is meant as an anti-ballistic missile system. One wonders if Uganda feared a ballistic missile attack from Sudan so as to go for the Patriot. And does the Sudan really posses this capability? It could have made sense if Tororo had implicated Iran instead.
As for an air attack, i think the patriot would clearly be miss-placed.Tororo, please give us some other air-defense system other than the patriot story. It really doesn’t add up.
civilians, they wouldnt last 2 clicks in a firefight no matter how many movies they’ve watched or how many sites they read from. and if Tororo is a part of the UG armed forces then our presumptions are confirmed, the U.P.D.F. is not fit for the status of a disciplined fighting force. how i wish spearhead were here now.
i also thought so D that you question was the Su30 vs the BuK, and when he talked about the patriot i thought i was thinking to hard. Just to help you Tororo the Patriot is an anti missile missile and the BuK is an anti aircraft missile. The two can oppose each other. The patriot is used to knock down incoming missile which the Sudan doesn’t have. See how guys are making fun of you Tororo?
word of advice, just retreat this guys will finish you. get an committed guy from U.P.D.F to assist you. its all up to you now.
About the Amin crises i think you are confusing yourself. you are prod of being defeated by rebels other then the Tz forces??? in your equation you never mentioned that
Libya sent 2,500 troops to aid Amin, equipped with T-54 and T-55 tanks, BTR APCs, BM-21 Katyusha MRLs, artillery, MiG-21s, and a Tu-22 bomber this arsenal was adequate to wipe out any force that was in this region at that time. So really what happened? i would like to know more.
Dont forget Risasi the contingent sent by Libya were not normal infantry uniforms, they were a highly trained special forces unit. most sources agree that the Amin’s soldiers retreated leaving the Libyans cut off and were soon over-run. Tororo is right on one thing though most of the LRA have fled to DRC, that however leavess M7 with another predicament in a war with Kenya UG will quickly find itself cut off sealed away from the East and South Eastern sections of its border whatever fightback they can muster will also be split by the incoming kenyan attack column right through the middle as it heads to KLA. the only option for M7 then would be to sue for peace or call retreat into the jungles in the west where they are bound to be attacked by the LRA from the North and Kagame’s forces from the west. he is virtually surrounded and i think he would rather lose his presidency than fight a conventional war against a better army.he simply doesn’t have the means .
hey guys take a look at this map. its not military grade but it will give you an idea how easy it is to surround UG cutting off all entry points for supplies and support from all quarters. notice how by using Lake Victoria (which due to our superior naval equipment and experience can be done quickly and efficiently we can avoid a direct confrontation with TZ while in essence creating a first line of attack in case they get any funny ideas.
Two attacking hooks one from NW kenya The other across the lake using amphibious landing attacks through the lake will for pincer converging in W Ug. while avoiding the central hot spots but at the same time cutting UPDF off. a central spearhead drive right through the middle made up of T72 leading the charge towards KLA while a second armor division made up of MK3s breaks off and heads on to N. UG. all this of course will be preceded by specific action action by D.Coy in entebbe and KLA while CDU secures the amphibious landing zones including the ones in Entebbe the rest of the 20th Para can be dropped in depending on the commanders objectives and to secure points like bridges and passes plus with the F-5s flying devastating sorties in and out of UG against aerial targets and 50ACB aided with the hawks taking the ground attack roles it could all be over too soon.i say M7 surrenders after 13 days tops.
http://www.africa-adventure.com/map/east_africa
Ok am going to urge every one to read and understand what has I have said. Don’t just skim through (or “read hard”) and then come up with inconclusive assessment. I said A VARIANT OF THE PATRIOT SYSTEM. If any of you knows how these systems are made then you would know that these are not nut and bolt systems that are fixed in nature and that variations can be created. The system created was the threat levels of our neighbors.
And I have breaking news for guys. KENYA DOES NOT HAVE THE BUK SYSTEM OR ANYTHING WITHIN ITS RANGE. I have been waiting on confirmation from my source in Africa and that’s his confirmation. I have no reason to doubt his intelligence gathering. Unless this is an acquisition within the last two months but given kenya’s PAC method this would have been on record some where.
Mr Raisi, TZ most significant effort in the amin war was supplying their katyushas. Amin’s army at the time was highly fractured (and he was at extreme paranoia) since he was going after his own vice president Adrisi. By the time the Libyans arrived the war was already deep in Uganda so they was no way he was going to start sending bombers against his population as if he was hitting another country and those 2500 libyian troops were nothing compared to all the former UNLA (obote), museveni’s forces and his own mutinying soldiers. ( Amin only trusted his Nubians from Sudan and had distanced almost all other officers from other tribes) So this was not just any ordinary rebel force. Perhaps the “ghosts” of all those people he had murdered had come back to take “revenge”.
And D just to educate you on another issue Kagame will never and I repeat NEVER do any thing to cause regime change in KLA. You forget that the RPF was born out of the U.P.D.F. the leadership in both countries is not just linked by cordial working relationship but by blood. If the president in ug was may be a Luo, or some other tribe yea that could happen but not now. The skirmish in Kisangani was more because the commanders on the ground could not decide on how to share their loot and both were heavily punished. But wasn’t it just a few years back that Kenyans were worried about museveni’s expansionist policy because of the Rwandese war and congo?
D what I would be more concerned about is about the safety of the luos in western Kenya. Kibaki and the kikuyus have no intentions of rescuing you. You can reference events of the last two years.
My fellow country men,my fellow comrades in the Kenya armed forces,i salute you for the ever growing professionalism and for making us the most elite force in east and central africa.
Just like Risasi said above, i find it amusing for Tororo (who in my opinion i think is Spartan reicarnated) to suggest that its better for Ugandan forces and their Libyan counterparts to be defeated by Rebels rather than the Tanzanian army.He takes credit for that.Like i said above,it doesnt take 20+ years for a real army to wipe out rag tag rebels like LRA and for that matter to give them an escape route! A better strategy of may be cutting them off from the rear,better intelligence gathering,interdiction capabilities would have ensured that those thugs didn’t end up in congo.
I have some food of thought for Tororo.When military junta took over Panama under Manuel Noriega and embarked on drug trade spree endangering the security of United states,The U.s under George Bush the first Invaded panama with paratroopers and captured Noriega and Jailed him in United states.Inspite of heavy security at the palace and the environs,the U.s rangers were able to capture the objective with very few casualties.
My point is,while you strugle to educate yourself on how lengthy it takes to capture a country,all i can tell you that an elite force like Kenya with the rangers and paratroopers with undoubtable intelligence and behind enermy lines survival abilities,it would be an operation of 4-8 hours to plant deeprooted elements of kenya army delta forces deep in entebe,Nakasero and obote street in kampala.Am not being offensive this is common knowledge and a denominitor that Binds us as kenyan forces in our passionate defence of this land.
We are not the rebel kind that digs in and goes to the bush for months.We are not a rebel movement.On the same token,when idi amin dada threatened to invade Kenya,a mere warning and just few Kenyan soldiers amassing to the border calmed his appetite to our land.It was on East african the other day that The Kenyan General who was to Lead Kenyan forces incase Ug invaded had an elaborate scheeme to land special forces in Kampala and Bring home Amins head for Display in Kenyan museums.
It is always possible DAMN IT!
NOTE IT ONLY TOOK A FEW HOURS TO DO NORIEGA IN!
Mr one man army are you in any way trying to compare the US army to the Kenyan Army? (And somebody on this site said I was too harsh when I questioned your mental capabilities!) you are watching too many darn freaking sci-fi movies. (it would be an operation of 4-8 hours to plant deeprooted elements of kenya army delta forces deep in entebe,Nakasero) are you crazy. alkaida could not execute their duties in kla when they boomed the Nairobi and dar-eslsalam embassies. You can’t plant foreign insurgents in ug not with this government in power And the kenyan army needs some kind of track record to show its capabilities ( I don’t want to see war in kenya just for the sake of it) and until then there remains huge doubt on what you can accomplish.The 2007 crisis exposed you greatly. U.P.D.F war with the lra was essentially against bashir who sold this war to other Arab nations as the western world trying to exterminate Arabs and Moslems. One man army Your kind of patriotism is commendable but it’s useless above the ground, you aught to use it underground to inspire cabbages.
Come Mr. Tororo, you can’t keep throwing out such poor generalities without being challenged. It offends our intelligence, man. Take the rather ludicrous claim that Kagame and M7 are inseparable and twinned by more than fate. Any cursory study of the subject would reveal how untrue this claim is. The RPF found home in M7’s rebel movement not because of a convergence of ethnicity but a convergence of their separate strategic interests. The Tutsi chaps (Fred, Paul, et al) needed a fulcrum for their eventual push to Rwanda in terms of real-time battle experience in attrition warfare and a rallying point for like-minded tutsi in the Rwandan Diasphora. M7 Rebel push simply was a convenient starting point for them, and that is all it was. They had endured decades of degrading and dehumanized living in Uganda, and elsewhere, treated like garbage and worse than apes by the prudish Ugandans. Even their remote kinsmen, M7’s Banyankole, relished humiliating and debasing the Tutsi in Uganda as generally “the poor relatives”, colorless, craven, undeserving kinsmen who lacked the spine to fight for their own land. Nothing horrifies the Tutsi as to hear their stay in Uganda being glorified and harped upon. Tororo’s statement is simply preposterously unreal, as would be anything claim that creates a sibling relationship between the Jews and the Ukrainians into which they fled the pogroms of Hungary & Poland of the middle 18th century and early 19th Century. So Kagame exercised that repressed distate during Kisangani exchange for his debasing life in Camps in Uganda , and probably itches to do it again without it leading to a collapse of his poorly structured power base in Rwanda, which is a real possibility in a long-drawn exchange with Uganda. If Tororo is a student of Military Science, and I opine he is a civilian with some official Military connections, such statements he makes wouldn’t see light at all. What we need in this blog is substantive discussions even if they are just generalities. I propose we ignore this fella like we did the Spartan and make him go away – unless he can put meat to his bone!!
Ole nekari The treatment you say was subjected upon the Rwandese was done by the Ugandan Luo on them and other southern tribes that’s why none of them real cared when kony operated in the north cause they said, well his killing his own brothers. The relation between museveni and Rwanda is not deniable since I can prove it from my own family tree. Sure you have hard other Ugandans (mostly the luos and baganda say they wished M7 could just go back to Rwanda) or the opposition leader Bedigye say the same. While attacking inspector general of police Kale Kihura. Forgeting that his # former army commander Mugisha Muntu also has a Rwandese linage. You Ole nekari are out of your league if you try to discuss this issue. You don’t have to take it from me but you can ask any other Ugandan or Rwandese on this issue.
And I can see you trying to act like an ostrich hiding its head in the sand hoping that issues will resolve themselves tic-tic-tic. Stop being in denial and discuss issues like olekoima is doing
I bet guys like you (one man army, D) always find themselves lost in thought and that’s because it’s unfamiliar territory
Tororo,
Your last paragraph is offensive to say the least.
When it comes to National security, Kikuyu/Luo rivalry will not count. That rivalry is only confined to politics and has not been allowed to permeate the disciplined forces.
In any case, Kibaki as a politician is on his last term in office, but even then i can’t see how a country’s commander in chief can accept to cede control of a country’s territory to a foreign power. Tororo, you are becoming cheap in your arguments and might lose my respect. Please debate professionally.
Some fellows here might be offending you, but don’t allow emotions to get the better of you.
Uganda too has more than its fair share of political upheavals, but we are not interested in them. Let’s leave those to political analysts. This blog is meant for matters military.
Tororo – if you are not able to post without insults and unwholesome diatribe, I suggest you just spare us your wisdom. Such is what causes war between even brothers. Probably you could start a browse-read of this blog from the top and you’d appreciate the quality of both the contributions of the contributors. Some chaps are quite senior in Kenya’s Military Command and in Civilian Intelligence, very knowledgeable and well educated about matters Military. You will see the richness of the cross-disciplinary knowledge, and how educative this blog has become to not just Uniforms but also to civilians who have interests in such matters. Not everything posted is Gospel-truth, while some exaggerations might be possible. That is what gets the debates going and in the exchange of posts we all get informed and educated no matter that we have not agreed on everything. It is not an intellectual competition and no one is stupid for expressing themselves here. So if you have knowledge to share or teach, please do so, by all means. But it serves no purpose at all the turn this forum into a insult-filled site. It does no honor to uniforms we wear, and disrespects grossly the service we all render to our respective Nations.
I couldn’t agree more Ole Nkarei. Let’s all contribute with a sense of professionalism in mind.Indeed some posts here are merely for National pride and not necessarily true, but shouldn’t be directed to offend anyone. I would love to see posts from some of our brothers in the entire East African region.
Remember too that it is not in our best interest to see East Africans fighting among themselves.I think this is not the point in this blog. We are merely debating capabilities of the various forces and this is healthy. Tororo is not the only offender though. Most of us are also equally guilty.
why do you guys lament you are the best in east and central africa,why not in the continent?
i do also get confused on kenya specialized forces,you guys talk of the delta force,rangers and the CDU,which is which
do you think your neighbours too has the same specialised forces?
remember interrogation survival training guys.1st your interrogator will cme out friendly,if tht dsnt wrk hell bcome tnreatening an finally insulting thts jst before he starts sticking needles under your toe nails and elecrocuting your family jewels.its a well versed M.O. and Tororo shldnt fool us.hes obviously after smthn n i bet it might b BuK battery positions.even wickipedia knows we own them.keep calm dnt let him pull us in.
Oh “D” it is perfectly in order for him to doubt the existence of the BUK in Kenyan arsenal. That serves us right. Many other systems exist and few know about them. Look, there is also the rapier missile system for instance.
The Rapier is old news, Olekoima. This is not to denigrate its efficacy though. Damn fine Battle-field counter to fast-movers, but that is all it is. In a highly fluid heavy-armored-led dash for KLA, it wouldn’t feature past the border jump-off points, egress bridgeheads across the border, and probably on the perimeter we would put up around the paratroop bridgeheads in Entebbe,around KLA eventually once the FBU activities there begin. But with Air superiority assured in the first day of operations, the Rapier System would revert to idleness. And “D” hits it right on the knob on survival school thing. Counter-stings are so visible on this blog daily, probes for Intel and behind the noms-de-guerre, eventually to turn or compromise some uniform. Need to keep your head around you, and allow us to seed a little bit of our sting too, eh? Chinook, Delta is the alphabetical letter “D” that is an euphemism to just one element in Kenya’s Air-borne Attack Force. CDU is yet another specialized compact, deadly, while the Rangers refers to a light Air-Borne Infantry Force trained in deadly combat tactics beyond that of normal Infantry. Though these Units might defer in terms of equipment and tasking from the more famous American name-sakes with whom they routinely cross-train with, but without fatal variance anyway, the basic philosophy, tactical interpretation of Combat and their interface with other formations is similar to a dot. These are the spear-head, a steel-hard fist, and bloody well-honed at that. Little known too is the External Division of NSIS that in my view is the best in Sub-Sahara, absolutely top of the mountain. All this is in the public domain anyway.
Ok may be I have crossed a line and may be I should learn that there may be some exaggerations (because of pride) or that not everyone posting here is conversant with military affairs. I was perfectly happy with the way most of the blog had gone. When it was a case of, ok here is situation X how do we go about it and how would our enemy (in this case UG) go about it and how do we counter their reaction? For the earlier part most of the posters were being very rational and it was quite informative until I started seeing quite ridiculous postings (ala mr army. Am sorry to have to bring out that name again) I was astounded. How could the discussion have gotten so “watered down”? And that’s why I started calling out some people on their outrageousness. What some people should understand is that when you go to war, you may have plan A and plan B, C, D as back up plans but within a few days you will find yourselves at plan K which didn’t really exist before and this happens even for smaller missions where anything from current weather conditions to politics could actually derail, you and this may find you behind enemy lines. So discussing such situations should not be taken for a joke (or may be I should stop being very serious)
Hey Tororo, take it easy, man. It is past, then. And you are very right, war is a damn sight uglier than most people can begin conceptualize. Which is why plans are vetted all over again, and again and again endlessly. So, what says you we all forget about that earlier stuff, and let’s do some hypothetical war-gaming, eh? We all know the rules, and we all know where the line we cannot cross lies. So, lets shoot a few shots and war game abit. Can you try to project UG possible responses to the vaunted statements made here that Kenya can over-run Kampala in three days of a lightning-fast armored-lead blitzkrieg to force a ceasefire? And by the way, from your last postings, it appears there are a number of you using the call-sign “Tororo”? Differences in the syntax, tone, and compilation and order of phrases… I donno!!
Tororo can,t you see that this guys are rapping you in turns? ama you are enjoying the plesure. you said Kenya can,t plant guys in your army. i challanged you on the MiG crash and the details that are on it, plus what is on its log book. are you ready we get on details??
No Sir Mr. Olekoima i had not forgotten the Rapier system, i simply would not feature it in my main order of battle as appertains the the UG situation. As Ole Nkarei rightly puts it the Rapier is the predecessor to the BuK in the Kenyan Anti Aircraft Missile system i would put it in reserve status for now or attach it to heavy artillery units for use against ground attack aircrafts.
Tororo is correct on the need for contingency plans in the theater of war nothing ever goes according to plan, the mark of a great fighting force is the ability to adapt to difficult situations. This comes from training, indoctrination, morale and logistic support most of which sadly Tororos U.P.D.F. fares dismally, i have scouted several UG baracks like Bombo, Hoima and Mbarara and those huts junior soldiers and recruits put up in (mama ingia polepole) are not fit for POWs according to Geneva conventions let alone a disciplined army. Lack of basic equipment and ghost soldiers are still big hurdles in your army. Please note that what i state is easily verifiable and not mere accusations. I welcome any critic you may have of Kilo Alpha though i doubt you would find any that would be classified as a weak point M7 can utilize. There are many areas that UG does not have counters for and stating SU – 30s as the answer to Kenya’s Military dominance is simple naivety.
Take is easy, “D” you are on full auto man – remember the three-round form?. Risasi rightly says we are bullying this chap. Let the man state his case no matter…… But have you noted there clearly several personalities using this call-sign “Tororo”? Someone is seriously watching this space, men!!
Drawing fire colonel.
“Enermy positions location 20 west ,300 degrees colonel.” cover,cover air support needed no neutralize this position over.
To answer Tororo on the issue of comparing Kenya army with the U.s.a military,i surely agree that he has to be told something 5 times for him to get it.The pararells i tried to draw here is how a well trained force is capable of. We train alot with the U.s military and our army rangers are constantly going to United states to enhance their capabilities through joint execises.
A sober mind would therefore know what i imply when i say we can plant forces deep in enermy territory.This is not saying we are the U.s army.
The greatest element of a formidable fighting force is the ability to evolve through the unexpected in different phases of battle and to come out unscathed.That is why in battle simulations we incooporate the best and the worst imaginable scenarios that the enermy can throw at us while including the weapons and all manners of capabilities known and unknown within the enermy positions.Good intelligence,interdiction and reiconssonance abilities are vital for this kind of mission.In this area we got everything taken care off and its out there in public domain that our potential adversaries are well mapped out.It may come as a shock to Tororo who cant keep off from low life insults that Ug is a house of glass.You see right through and it takes a stone to bring it down.
I would like to invite him just as Nkarei did to tell us how hypothetically U.g would repond to a full thrust ,concentrated march by Kenyan forces deep into entebe while landing units of the ranger brigade deep into ug.
I would like to assure him that as clear as day is from the night,it wouldn’t be long before u.p.d.f weapon bunkers start exploding right infront their eyes,right before those supposedly immortal su 30s get into the air,right before those museum modules(t.55s and t 62s) get to be cranked.
Well i would like to know in the eyes of such a scenario,and we are again being hypothetical,what are you gonna do?I have a prediction:Be good at what you are at and that is to abandon fancy weapons,entrench into the bushes and dig in.Are you not the birth of a rebel movement any way.
Prove me wrong!
this blog is good. it would have been so much better if capable minded officers from the U.P.D.F or any other army in the regional would come out with valid counter to what we Kenyans have put out there. if i say for example i would take KLA with an armored charge i would like to read a post on how my effort would be blocked or how its not possible in the 1st place. all we are doing now is confirming the obvious that we are still and have always been the best army in East and Central Africa am willing to bet my stripes that man for man a Kenyan grunt is as good if not better that one from the US Army.
i find this thread more interesting by eash day,lets remember whatever talks here are hypothefication,the truth will one day be known.
i also doubt the existence of rapier missile system and BUK in kenya,who can prove me wrong??
i also understand that kenya are planning to acquire multi role fighters from china,any reliable source on this,and if so why would you guys go china while there are better machines in the usa like the f16?
Chinook, the Rapier system has been integral part of our static battle-field defense against low-flying fighter planes for decades, man! Tested and used very effectively by the Brits in the Falklands campaign, and probably one of the best short-range static battle-field anti-aircraft missile system to-date- gives complete suppression capabilities, extremely variable and aggressively reactive to battle-field threats from low-flying objects. A Battalion Commander‘s dream, I tell you. That Rapier in Kenya is not rumor or conjecture / hypothesis, as you put it. It is verifiable fact in the public domain. If you are Uniformed, of whatever rank, please validate stuff you read here with your G2-Brass. If they don’t know, they should be court-martialed for incompetence. As concerns the Chinese purchase, please get to the top of this blog and scroll your way down, you will find a lot of posts from all manner of people on just that – and then we can chat!
it would be wiser not to comment on our anti aircraft missiles on this open forum. surf the web chinook you’ll find collaborative statements on the above systems.as for the proof you seek this is not the place. waren’t you the same guy seeking info on CDU?
D when you ask for a U.P.D.F officer to come out and counter an incursion by the Kenyan army, an appropriate answer will be given when you present a credible scenario not the ridiculous scenes that are being dreamed about. (We know your capabilities) so stop dreaming up some scenarios from some 80’s war film and think, Ooh we can do that. Right now there are two armies in the great lakes region that can not be infiltrated based on their structural Setup and they are the U.P.D.F and R.P.A (but these two can also infiltrate each other because of this same property. I leave it to you find where this weakness is). When you come with a fisable scenario (and nothing from one man army’s dream studio) the right answer will be given. What I can tell you is that before those soldiers Set off from Langata ,Nanyuki, embakasi we will know about it. And your strips must not be worth shit for you to stake the in a comparison with the US army. I can only compare your kind of recklessness to the care a suicide bomber has to his life on his last day.
And please stop the little talk about Kenya army training with US army. Please that happens with the U.P.D.F too. So many of our troops have been training both Locally in UG and in the US for a long time. (Just to give you a well known example; before kagame left to go to Rwanda, He was training in the US as a Ugandan solider). But the U.P.D.F just does not train with them; they even fight alongside us most recently in Operation Lightening thunder in Garamba.( this has always been done secretly but the recent legislation in congress will make future operations official).
The US has always wanted to move the Africom base from germany to Uganda if it was not for the objections of South Africa and Nigeria (with China being behind Nigeria’s objection). When Two sitting US presidents visit you, They are never there for just a cup of tea. But this is not to say the US are the only ones handling training here, there are units that are trained by Israelis and even North Korea
and we also train some of UG’s brass in our Karen college Mr Tororo. so whats your point?
am still waiting for you on the MiG crash crisis
Tororo my man i wonder who it is that gives you these facts you claim to know about. i admire your tenacity in defending your own but there is a thin line between loyalty and sycophancy. Read and comprehend.
Kenya Armed Forces Organization structure: 2 armored brigades, 4 infantry brigade, 1 ranger battalion, 1 engineer brigade i armored recce bttln, 3 arttie bttlns, 1 air cav bttln, 3 engineer bttlns, 4 infantry bttlns, 1 para bttln, Air force 36 -F5s, and assortment of support and transport aircraft. Kenya Navy. 10 Missile Craft, 2 Amhibious crafts, assortment support vessels. Total estimated numbers 45,000.
U.P.D.F. 5 divisions (25 brigades infantry) 1, arttie brigade 1 armoured brigade. Air wing 6 SU 30, 3 MiG 23, 2 MiG 21 BiS, 1 Mil 24 Hind. Water wing negligible. estimated Total numbers 47,000
Rwandan Defense Force: 4 divisiosn (12 brigades) mixed discipline forces, Airforce SA 365 Dauphin 1, SA 355 ecureuril 1, Mil 24 hind 2, Mil 8 Hip 3. Total estimated numbers 20 – 25,000.
Kenya Army:
Armour 110 T-72, 76 Vickers MK 3 Panhard AML 72 No Light Armored vehicle, Ferret Scout car, BRM, BTR 60, WZ 551, UR 416 APCs. Assorted Heavy lift and logistics vehicles, BM 21 Grad, S27 Pion Nora B -52 SP Arttie, L118 Gun, Mod 56 arttie, Milan, Swingfire AT Missiles. Carl Gustav reccoiles Rifle.
UPDF 20 T – 55, PT 76 Light Armour, BMP 2 19 No., BTR 152, Buffel, Mamba. AT3 sagger AT missiles. RM 70 arttie
RDF 20 T-55, BMP 1 IFV, M113, Nyala APCs, BM 21, RM 70 Arttie, SA 7 AA missiles.
In addition Kenya maintains 20,000+ AP Paramilitary force and 10,000+ GSU Paramilitary.
The above info is part of what is in the public sphere just in case Mr. Tororo you were t00 lazy to check i would appreciate a reply on how in open warfare you plan to counter the above with what you have.
And dont give me that ooh most of what we have is secret talk either. What?you dont think we have secrets of our own More capable minds have argued for UGs case and have lost your attempt to bring the RDF (not RPA by the way) into the equation is just but clutching at straws. Counter that!
Tororo I gave you an amnesty to walk away as you had early indicated too but you ignored it. Ok let’s talk the talk and walk the walk. They is a big deference it between why Kenya and UG trains abroad. UG trains outside due to the larks of basic training infrastructures. In Kenya a percentage of our overseas training is a secondmate from our home based institutions. We train with the best of the best at reputable military college or to update with the changing times in the military sphere. UG took 10 pilots to be trained in Israel. sawa but what type of course where they doing in Israel. advance combat pilot training course, the Kenya air force use to go to that college back in the 70’s and 80’s sasa we do that training hapa hapa inchini with akina Col. Gitahi at Moi AB. when Kenya sends her boys out to train they do so in reputable institutions Britannia Royal Naval College Dartmouth, Royal Air Force College Cranwell, United States Military Academy at West Point. Most of our leading brass carry the initials of these colleges in their titles. Our basic training is as per international standards. When our cadet leave lanet they carry with them Diplomas in military science. Our best cadets go to Sandhurst and train with the best of the best in the world and come out with honors. Have you boys ever stepped in the above colleges? muna letewa ma drill sergents from the US Marine corp. to teach you mortar positons, ambushes, basic rifle handling etc then you say that you are trained with American. What are you talking about?
We have enough qualified personally who have done oversea training to teach our boys at home. Now Look at the quality of you lead training staff Mr. Tororo. What are their qualifications and background? The Commandant of you staff college Major General A. Guti and Brigadier Kalyebala. What are they qualifications? It’s just appointments wame pewa tuu iso? Ok tell me where did they train? Then I will show you his counterpart in Kenya and his background…
Let talk about your top generals ,service commanders and we compare their qualification and training background and put aside the MiGs and the Su,s vs the Tiger III and the F-5S/T I mean this is not a topsecret document therefore engage in it openly and promptly .
Men, observe closely the posts using this call-sign and you will notice there are several personalities that come out. Tis not one chap sending out the call, unless it is a “Drunk” and “Sober” alternation! There are variances in the syntaxes used, clear alteration in the tones, and changes in order of phrases. Hell, even the diction is different each time! Consequently, the thread expressed cannot be consistent, which is why Tororo ducks every time a 120mm zips over his head! He waffles his responses, lacking form and substance. Ain’t we expecting too much from this call-sign, then? We are holding a conversation with ourselves. I sent excepts last night of his posts to some old pals in the RDF and you cannot imagine the incredulous mirth generated there! Even these RDF guys claim confidently that they can wipe out UPDF in a convention campaign! They are only restrained by the spectra of trenched warfare with UPDF inside UG which they reckon is the philosophy of the UPDF – see what happened in Kisangani? Enough of Tororo – Let’s move on, men!
Going after this guy now would be overkill.
D, Raissi, Delta are you always this stupid or are you just making a special effort Today? You ask for Ugandans trained at sandhurst, that would be like naming almost all commanding officers.(I gave you an example of kagame, Muhoozi a graduate of both sandhurst and fort Leavenworth, Mutengesa, I mean this is ridiculous for me to try and list the officers trained at these institutions.) You talk about ug officers in kenya, UG also has Kenyan officers at Kimaka. By the way do you read my post and comprehend or are you simply mental midgets with an IQ of a fence post? Just brilliant to the top of your boots. I don’t mean to be harsh but stupid is as stupid does and someone ought to tell you the truth. I still have my respect for the intelligent contributors but some of you whose verbosity is exceeded only by your stupidity. Delta, D I can see you were born stupid and greatly increased your birthright; talking about having sources in Rwanda, I mean is there any relationship between the Kenyan army and Rwanda apart from cordial interaction as EAC members? You talk about Kisangani with absolutely no idea of what happened or the end result. Don’t let your mind wander – it’s far too small to be let out on its own. What a bunch of ignoramuses
Guys, UG’s war-plans are to beat us with the quality and thunder of their insults!! No contest, hands down!! There ain’t in our Armouries anything to counter such terrifying overwhelming force!! Small wonder their perennial fratricidal arguments with Joseph Kony goes on and on like some soap opera, longer than the KBC Bold-and-the-beautiful, considering the awesome arsenal UPDF engages in this effort, from the contents of these guys calling themselves TORORO have volubly disclosed in this blog!!I donno about you guys, but no where in our combat schools do they teach how to beat your enemy with insults!! If there are such courses offered, I missed them out completely – would any of you grunts let me know where I can enlist for one such, so that I can prepare then for UPDF appropriately? Seriously, Tororo shot himself in the head, dead, a long time ago. Let us put him to rest, bra.!
It will be interesting to read comments from members of other East African forces- The TPDF, RPF,Burundi Army, and more members of the UPDF.
SOMEONE should remind Tororo that both M7 and Kagame lived in kenya for years as refugees before going back to their countries and as recently as 2001 some of their children went to schools in kenya
typical i post hard facts on the numbers and arsenal of the three armies this schizophrenic character has alluded to and what do i get for my efforts?insults.if that is the answer to my question then i guess the whole of the UPDF will line up in front of the invading Kenyan force and start abusing them.it will hurt so bad that we will have to retreat. guys i think these men should be awarded the nobel price they just discovered a new weapon…insults.Tororo my boy i have heard worse you should have met my boot camp physical drill sergeant he would make your words sound like lyrics to a love song.
to anyone else out there with a bit more sense. please read my post on May 9 2010 at 1010hrs and answer me if it warrants the above mud slinging to my name.
Lets have order gentlemen .ok lets procedure to D posting on May 9, 2010 at 10:10 am then I will continue with the train background of the two countries top brass. This will supplement what each has in the arsenal postings.
Tororo is an expert in insults. simply jump over his insulting statements and continue reading and search for any substance postings from his side. Ignore his insults and keep to the main topic of discussion guys.
To add on D posting, our wheel tanks the have been modified for anti-aircraft duties fitted with anti aircraft missile. This is to neutralize any hostile aircrafts will keeping up with the speeds of advancing armored columns.
ok Tororo can you comment on D arsenals postings
Beyond the very poorly crafted English, Risasi,there is nothing substantive to consider in Monsieur Tororo’s posts. Tis why responses are invariably reactionary, influenced by the intellectual emptiness of content in his post. Aren’t all trained to separate the BS from the Real-thing? That is what deadly Combat is all about, keeps you and your men alive. The insults are just a smokescreen around this guy, and if we expect qualitative rejoinder to “D” TOA, that is about all we will get. I have posted his comments in a couple internal blogs used by chaps I know in RDF and TPDF, and invited them to join in. Let’s see how deep this pool is.
Which reminds me this Tororo character once alluded to a certain Operation Lightning Thunder. The CO of the Ugandan Forces in this particular action was one Brig Patrick Kankihiro this officer is an alumni of the OTC in Karen. You can verify this, his name is in the logs. Now i wonder for such a significant Ops which according to Tororo’s own admission included American Forces why not give command to one of the officers from the “better” military colleges abroad that UPDF sends its men to. why choose a man trained in the art of warfare in Kenya? Perplexing isn’t it?
Delta you sir know Nobody of substance in RDF. see your Blatant lying is what real ticks me off. Your creation of outlandish situations is my only quarrel with you. We all have national pride but do you have to base it dishonesty?
Patrick am not against Kenya or anything and am appreciative for you hosting Ugandans during the turmoil years just like I think the people who escaped the 2007 election aftermath are of Uganda. Some have even decided to stay and we have absolutely no problem with that
I surrender, Tororo!! Please don’t shoot! I will not exchange insult with you, Ugandan. But even if my claims are “outlandish” and “blatant lying”, why don’t you do the Soldiery thing and show them for just that? Pick-out the lies, man, and ram them down my throat, even! Just put your elucidate mind where you dirty mouth is. There is even honour amongst thieves, ain’t there! If you are uniformed, give respect one soldier to another – coz being mealy-mouthed only soils your and my uniform at the end of it all. Disinformation and propaganda are legimitate conducts / facets of war, and all you really need to do is either agree with the claims made here, or show them to be false, or sinmply dismiss them as being propaganda and disinformation!! That is all, bwana!!
I asked you guys to take cover from this Tororo fella who my best guess tells me is the mad man in this market,a man who is clearly disturbed,a man who answers simple questions with a barrage of insults,a man whose immediate recommendation should be a mental hospital,a man who not only dishonors his country but the uniforms of any soldier on earth,a man who at first wasn’t much of a man and in the end not less of an animal,a man whose most common vocabulary is “stupid” for that is what he has called everyone who fairly questioned his outrageous allegations,a man who doesnot acknowledge that Ug has fought waek rebels for 20 years and not won,that Ug was badly humiliated by Kagame soldiers thus awakening them to what it means to fight an army and not thugs,that Ug cut and run in congo when Zimbabwe and rwanda came to the rescue of Kabila.I can go on all day and expose the inefficiency of these guys and the reason why they are not a threat to anyboby including poor Rwanda but its not wotrh of my time to debate with the “intelligent Tororo.”
For his claim that a war with U.g would not be a reenactment of the 80s where U.g cowed in the face of being massacred by Kenya army when they claimed our territory,i will tell him what ive always said.NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE,AS IT WERE THOUGH IT SHALL BE.We would chew u.p.d.f for breakfast.
One man army, you talk about exposing my inefficiency? Then say Rwanda and Zimbabwe came to the aid of kabila against UG? Please some educate this man on the on goings of the region. If it was not that I know that this kind of ineptness is restricted just to you and very few others I would have thought that nobody gathers good intelligence in Kenya. I have already asked you not to indulge in matters that you are not conversant with. Surely a village somewhere is missing its idiot. Go study this war in detail before you comment on it.
Cease Fire!!! Gentlemen Cease Fire!!! from bought side and that is an order.
Tororo post you comment on regard to posting on May 9, 2010 at 10:10 am from D. D prepare yourself with your facts to answer back.
if you have nothing to comment or want to elude that topic be glade to say so.
there after will talk on the Congo warfare which will be patroned by One man army/Delta4. lets hear it from the horse mouth since U.P.D.F participated in the war.
Stand easy gentleman lets wait for Tororo reply back on D May 9, 2010 at 10:10 am
We have a beautiful blog, which we all fought hard to take-over and conquer and we have turned it into an exciting Military forum for friendly professional bantering, a site which a lot of civilians are logging into to get insights into the Military beyond the hardware and parades they usually see, and also getting to see us Uniforms are we really are – intelligent, educated, knowledgeable, professionals, worldly and internationally exposed. Moreover, this might be our informal avenue for integrating the Intellectual body of the Militaries of East Africa, in line with the Socio-Politico-Economic efforts running in tandem presently. But these insults exchanges risks making us Uniforms the laughing storks of the Civilians, and we risks an erosion of all the good ground we have captured in the hearts of our people!
So while I support calls for a ceasefire by Risasi, I also agree that all Tororo, and anyone else for that matter, needs to do is (i) either agree with claims made here, (ii) or show them to be false by adducing even superficial facts (no national secrets, please), (iii) or just dismiss them as national propaganda and disinformation – that too also is a legitimate facet of war after all. To a large extent, a war is won in the preparations, which we all know includes a necessary vital component of disinformation and propaganda. Let us all agree that we as Soldiers we shall be civil and professional in our exchanges – there are rules even in deadly mortal violent exchanges between noble variant men of war, and that is what we all are
Roger that Col. I hear you too Risasi. lets be fact and issue oriented on this matters behaving like indisciplined recruits wont help matters much in terms of educating ourselves and the masses.
Much obliged sir(s).
Mr Tororo this was meant for you on good. Unlike fighting many fronts with different blog members, I have given you a window to deal with a topic at a time. why do you let this guys molest you like this?show the blog what the U..P.D.F is made of. At least from your prospective. Is there a problem? D would like to discuses with you the arsenal matters, are you in a position to oblige? Would you like to move on and discuses the Congo crises?
Ok I don’t See what am supposed to be responding except to correct you on the number of the hardware listed. There are 7 mig 23 and not 3, 9 Mig 21 not 2 as you put it.6 hinds and 1 still being waited on for delivery (this was part of the five that were declared unserviceable and returned to the supplier so far they have managed to give back 4) see the discrepancy? I won’t get into the support aircraft despite the same mistakes.
Now if it is the crush of the one of the jets I thought I already explained that. The ground commanders instead on a booming raid despite the horrible weather conditions. And they are waiting for their day to give explanation to higher authority. Though I understand the urgency of these commanders because this was an operation being done in congo and they have a tendency on switching withdraw dates on us (and we don’t want a repeat of the past decade when we had to stay there by force).
For those who don’t know kony hasn’t been a problem in Uganda since 2002. This is when he moved back into southern Sudan and Operation Iron fist was lunched against him. When he could not take it he ran into Congo from where Operation lightening thunder moved him and now he is moving between Dafur and Central African Republic. But soon we are getting permission to find him there too.
Raisi, Prospective or Perspective? I will take it that you meant perspective. And the molesting talk, where you in some catholic school (looks like somebody “touched” you where they were not supposed to. Trying to get more people to join you in hopes that it will make it right?) See some times its difficult to have a conversation when there are dirty pigs squealing around but that does not stop you from talking does it? Not all postings here are from people who are conversant with this subject but like someone said I should try and ignore them only that it is so hard to just late half truths and lies go on without me saying something about it
A white man passed by a Ugandan village in the beginning of the 20th century, and the only person visible to him was this hefty black dude, butt naked, shouting himself hoarse from the top of a banana tree -no-one else in sight. The white man sat down to watch this intriguing spectacle of this lone man screaming obscenities at an unseen recipient. Of course the poor white man could make no sense of the diatribe exploding out of the foaming mouth of this agitated native! The entire valley, and only this one ravaged soul was in sight, and not a response from even the shadows to his haunting defiant screams! Well, eventually the white man returned to England and wrote his book, in which he stated authoritatively that in that part of “Black Africa”, every savage was butt naked, lived atop a banana tree, and was stark raving mad!! Can you blame the white man? Give us a break, Tororo!! You are giving us all a bad name, man!!
I am not giving no f*@kin Breaks Here. Stop with the mendacity and see if I will “attack” anyone. You provoke whatever action I may take.
Kill it down Delta4. Tororo has promised us “Stop with the mendacity and see if I will “attack” anyone” that’s good enough.
To Tororo it seems that D made some errors in his posting and you have updated them. but his question still prevails. as stated below
” i would appreciate a reply on how in open warfare you plan to counter the above with what you have”
Let the man speak Delta4 am still not done with my rejoinders. my aim is not to make them mere words but to have evidence from other sources to back them up. You gentlemen will agree that in our line of work evidence is somewhat hard to come by and most of the time impossible to share. Errors i may have made but the limit is maybe 1 plane on the part of the MIg 23s i stick to my guns when it comes to the MIG 21s as far as it is known by anyone only the six SU30s recently acquired by UG are fully operational as to the numbers that were originally brought in. Remember aircraft arent lost to crushes only some of them get grounded out of lack of repairs or old age. These factors are feasible and realistic in the Ugandan Airforce.
Birds that have not been observed in in flight or even taxing on runways for almost seven years should and will have their flight capabilities questioned. Especially if you take into consideration the security situation in N. UG it would seem reasonable to have armed reccon flights over the area just to make sure Kony doesnt have any bright ideas about coming back into town. If they can afford to buy 6 new top of the range birds surely they can also afford to fuel and arm the ones they already have for such duties right? Hey our Bulldogs are way older than the Mig 23s but they still fly.
I also know that D. I know the same fact. But let me play the devils advocate. Ug strike oil and all the aircrafts are air worthy. Mr Tororo, don’t you still see that your forces are out gunned by the Kenyan arsenal. What’s your prospective of the battle?
.Sounds reasonable, your query, Risasi, “D”. Let’s have a healthy exchange, even if it is merely military suppositions. All war-games are suppositions anyway. But see how essential they are to preparedness? Without them, Battle Philosophy has not shape!! But to introduce a tangent here – there is already a clear open race to get the black gold off the ground, and into the international market. I reckon UG has a head-start on this, now, but before the grease hits the pot, it will take at least another five years. During this period, UG must need pacify the restive north by politico-military means, mollify the powerful disenfranchised Buganda by an inclusive political dialogue, and work to settle the seething western regions by the same means. I postulate therefore that Military spending over the next coupla years in UG will be motivated by these internal imperatives. The Congo escapades have served their diversionary purposes, and I reckon UG will settle into a healthy National Dialogue pretty soon. Kenya on the other hand will pull all stops to ensure it ships the oil earlier than UG, to bankroll and expansion of our Military for the self-same imperatives of internal pressures – last seen during the PEV. Luckily, the political National Dialogue has been going on longer in Kenya, although with some nasty turns like the PEV of 2008. I have also proposed here and in Staff College debates, that the long-drawn implosion of Somalia is ingeniously complex and deliberate CI operations that responded to the dynamics posed by the Somalia’s earlier threats to Kenya of the Sixties, whose success (if one can coldly call this human disaster so) measures in the complete elimination of a credible threat to a repeat of the sixties for the foreseable future. Consider too that Somalia has the largest known off-shore oil and gas reserves outside the Antarctica, whose sea-shelf extends into the recently declared 200NM Kenya exclusive economic zone. That is where our strategic posturing is, guys, not UG. That is the next battle-ground for Oil and Natural gas of this century when the Saudi shelves runs out in around thirty years from today. So while the western economic powers are already engaged in a mad partitioning of the Antarctica, the emerging powers (China, Brazil, India) are positioning themselves to raid the Indian Ocean – hell they already Aircraft career battle groups roaming this ocean even now!! Now, how does that change the Matrix, fellas?
so far the chinese (and other emerging powers) approach to africa has been one of cooperation with a hidden view of exploitation rather than the western ideology of exploitation before cooperation. None but we africans can solve our problems remember he who wears the boot knows where it pinches. In my view a problematic somalia is beneficial not only to us kenyans but the easter africa region as well. it is a buffer zone against undue pressure from external forces as long as the somalia question persists these reserves can never be fully exploited.
think about it gentlemen, every economic ideology out there be it communist, socialist or otherwise has undertones of capitalism. why do you think the chinese struggle so much to make cheaper copies of everything?so as to sell them yet ask their ruling elite what they think of capitalism am sure a few choice words would follow. the thing the more arab oil gets depleted the more valuable african oil is. look at every spot in africa where there are oil deposits and a massive influx of AK47s in the hands of so called rebels is not far behind.
with the emergence of oil in EA so as to avoid this problem of internal strife a united effort is imperative. it would be better to market our oil collectively as a bloc rather than individual countries that way our bargaining power would be greater in the global markets. i say we should give cartels like OPEC a wide berth and run this our own way the legal mumbo jumbo would be extreme but am sure we have the brains. we could come up with an equitable way of dividing the profits according to input and output. this is easier said than done but not entirely impossible, if only we had trustworthy leaders who will not be out to grab and fight over what is clearly not theirs.
Tororo
if i may ,i meant to say Agola and Zimbabwe.An honest mistake which should be taken for what it is.As for Rwanda,i know you were fighting alongside them until the misunderstanding in Kisangani that led to an exchange sending u.p.d.f cowering.Am sorry for that typing mistake.
Tororo,
IF i may add on what i said above,when battle hardened and better equipped angolan forces streamed into Congo throuh cambida enclave,The ugandans and their rwandese counterparts had literally lost the war.Their drive towards Kinshasha had been nipped in the bud.
If you will,during this period of the war,i was deployed in that region and every sound of the heavy gunfire went over my head.We closely monitored the situation and if you are informed,you will know that the then President of Kenya was already taking sides and had warned the “Forces that were not invited” to get out of congo or else.Intelligence gathering is the best capability we have mastered and we know what went on there.
In short,youll be shocked to learn that while you guys fought in the war,we may be the people that tells you about that war.
Now,coming to the main subject,while the people of this region may long to coexist as brothers and sisters,its always important to note that chaos and catastrophe does not begin with the people per se.Like D said above,leaders who thrive in mayhem,the “geniouses” of grassroot politics if you will,the “saints” who wonna protect their own are always the origin of proxy wars in Africa.I think If africa has to be ready to defend herself,we must first identify who is the enermy.In this case,we are our own enermies and believe me you when the next thunder of heavy gunfire erupts,it wont be because a chinese oil rig has mysteriously been elected at the coast line.
What am saying here is that serious policy problems have to first addressed in political circles before we even tell our people that we are africans first and then east africans.
Allow me gentlemen to wind up with Tororo before we get to current affairs and economics.
Silent in a debate equates to an acknowledgements. It seems Tororo has concurred that the arsenal posted by D suggests that Kenya is military superior in both qualitative and quantitative aspect. With the above arsenal UG is out gunned. Chapter closed D.
For the Congo/Zaire crises one man army has retracted and apologies. It was an honest mistake.
Let’s proceed to my debate started on May 9, 2010 at 12:04 pm:
The above posting by D was based on hardware’s. I dwell my arguments on intellect path and I world like clarifications from Mr Tororo.
Mr Tororo I was indicating we check on credentials of the two countries top brasses, from tops generals all way to service Commands. Like I said early, the magnitude and trainings between these two countries are wide apart. Both of our men might have trained in the same colleges or countries but our extend is deeper and greater based on the syllabus we have in our military training facilities back home. Sandhurst offers different course from 6week small arms seminars to year long degree course. its not about being there but about what you were doing there.
Uganda
Chief of Defense Forces General Aronda Nyakairima
Qualifications:
Makerere University (1978): Degree of Bachelor of Arts in political science
Fort Leavenworth in Kansas, USA: Diploma in Strategic Studies
Nasser Military Academy in Egypt: Military Studies Certificate Course (6month Cadet training)
Appointments:
Chief of Defense Forces (CDF)
U.P.D.F Army comandare
Commanding Officer Armored Brigade
Assistant Director in the Directorate of Military Intelligence
Presidential Protection Unit (presidential guards)
Military Experience
National Resistance Army 1982-1986 (4yre)
U.P.D.F 1986-present (24yre)
Kenya
General Jeremiah Kianga
Fort Leavenworth in Kansas, USA: Masters degree in Military Arts and Science
India Army War College, Mhow Senior Command (SC) course (Degree level)
Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (two years Cadet Training)
Appointments:
Chief of General Staff (CGS),
Commander Kenya Army
Assistant Chief of General
General Commanding Eastern Command
Director of Military Intelligence
Military Experience
1971-present (39yre)
I talked about the magnitude of training. Observer in details bought boys hail from Fort Leavenworth Kansas USA. But one holds a Master degree while the other holds a Diploma certificate from the same college. This the magnitude that I mean. Before I continue I would like a blog member to cross check the information. Mr Tororo from Ug do the honors for you country.
I WOULD like to add that even the KIMAKA training facility in uganda , there are four kenyan top military trainers seconded there for helping in traning for the so called east african defence brigade mainly for senior oifficer training..they are also helping the ugandan army in this regard.
My point, precisely one-man-army. All these armed contacts we have witnessed in East Africa, the Great Lakes and the Horn of Africa in the last fifteen years are merely diversionary. They are meant to confound us and detract us from focus on what is really important to us Africans, and that is finding unity of purpose based on a convergence of National Developmental Growth strategies, in the use our natural wealth to benefit our people. And how successful they have been previously in the Middle-East Argument and see another Somalia in conflict with itself – are there historical and generic differences between a Jew and an Arab, isn’t their religion anchored on the same truth and history? So that the UG SU30MKK and the debate we have had about them recently is a poignant evidence of this, that while the Indians, Chinese, and Brazilians Navies roam our backyard Ocean – our outlet of the export of our combined immense mineral wealth to the international market, we focus on how to react to the inconsequential presence of 6 poorly supported airframes that will not in any manner have an impact on the development of the Military-politico philosophy of this region one bit!! Someone in this blog accused me of having a western phobia, blaming the West for all our difficulties – I countered that the relationship the Caucasians have had with Black Africa of the last 600 years, I don’t evidence where his interests ever achieved a convergence with the African. So that I even now the idea that the Caucasian advocates for my wellbeing is one I consider naïve, farfetched and not based on any empirical information at all. So, the underlying motivation behind the political push for and EAC is the one “D” touches on, building a larger block of inter-state economic and political convergence to be able to push from a position of unity and force our people’s agenda specifically when the “mineral wars” will likely begin in thirty years time. Let’s put aside this UG threat Matrix now, seeing it for what it is, and lets theorize critically at the larger geopolitical situation developing even as we speak.
I would want to here want plan kenya military planners have in place to make it more iffecient military in africa.
wat we have in our arsenal aren’t enough protect this country more so in air defence and the number of main battle tank which the military posess.
we only have 186MBT as opposed to wat sudan and ethopia have.
i also dought the anti tank capabilty of kenya,pple keep on mentioning 35 mosquito attack helicopters,this was the original numbers as some has been lost through crashes.
we only have very few interceptors 22 in number,we are not safe guys lets think twice.
when the mineral wars start they will not be a direct confrontation of us against them. it will most likely be economic and covert rather than open faced war. there is little we can do about covert sabbotage ops except strengthen our counter intel agencies and fortify our strategic points. the economic aspects of mineral wars are best covered by unity of nations sailing in the same boat top strengthen their collective bargaining power and clout internationally.
however an attempt at instigating a proxy war is not out of their capabilities. this is where we really have to be careful not to leave any loose ends they can utilize. the region is finely balanced with Kenya at one end of the scale and the other countries at the other. destabilize Kenya and the whole region will be easy pickings. I was in UG at the height of the 2007 PEV and soem weeks after, the economic situation there was alarming to say the least, prices doubled and in some cases tripled almost overnight, basic commodities shortages and breakdown of communication infrastructure was also evident especially in the IT sector. So while strengthening the EA federation it is also important we strengthen ourselves internally both militarily and psycho-socially, the banishment of tribal mentality and chronism would be a big step towards this because this and not lack of many MBTs, interceptors and AT gunships is our biggest weakness. Only Kenya can defeat itself.
I reckon we all hear you, “D”, every man-woman in Uniform, on the prerequisite mental and nationalistic paradigm shift in Kenya Uniformed, Civies and Politicos sectors. I don’t think I am wrong to say that though we ain’t perfect yet, since Gen. Tonje’s reflective stint at CGS we have come some ways like you have envisaged. The thing about change is that without self-refection, it wouldn’t move one bit, and in combat school we learn the art of retrospective self-examination since a fighting force that lacks this ability to self-examine is itself critically flawed. Such exposes the weakened franks, and then helps to draw up plans for reinforcements in systems, materiel, training, etc. Our Politicos started just this sort of retrospective self-examination that has lasted 20 years in Kenya and which on the whole gives us all great hopes that eventually we shall get our politics right one day soon – despite the horrible detour they took us through during the PEV. Our Military growth has only one terminal goal, and that it to develop as the Deterrent fulcrum of the East Africa region, so that others will gravitate around our shoulder very much like the Arabs on Egypt’s. And though the Mineral War will be mostly covert and CI based, I think a strong Military Deterrence will ensure these wars stay that way, covert, and CI, and there I reckon we can hold our own and even go one better. All these other infrequent flashes around us are purely detractions, diversionary, petty and without historical background, unnecessary and wholly sacrilegious in their betrayal of our peoples.
An article in todays standard newspaper reflects on the building of a new port in Lamu and its effects towards the socio economic status of the country. The successful completion of such a project, together with the expected returns from the oil boom plus our perennial high earners in agricultural exports and tourism would be like an afterburner to our economic engines. Just think about it our own version of Singapore or Dubai catering not only for Eastern Africa but spreading its effects as far west as Cameroon, it will be a gateway to the far and near east eliminating the need to sail down south to the cape just to ship goods to India and china, this is the kind of forward thinking we need. The construction of the port together with supporting infrastructure which includes high speed railway link to Ethiopia to the north would cost an estimated 1.2 trillion bob. I say its worth every penny, its returns could be felt almost immediately besides most of this cash would be spent right here in our economy in terms of materials acquisition and wage bills.
With the money from this we could own those M1 Abrams and F-35s everyone thinks are so good just for the fun of it. The splendour to be found in Lamu city when this project takes root will make Nairobi look like a manyatta village in rural Samburu.
oh men,wat a suprice!!,i was watching a vidio on kenya military special forces exercise in Djibouti,that was marvellous if the boys can really act like wat i saw,wow.
the boys were armed with arsotties of morden warfare machinery except the G3riffle which i think is not effective for such a force like the delta.
suprisingly again,the CIA ranking puts updf as the 8 most powerful army in africa,acording to the ranking and then Rwanda army with 80,000 boys comes nineth.where is kenya army??
chinook….
dont worry about CIA rankings these are never acurate…remember they said sadam had weapons of mass destuction?the CIA uses this as a disinformatioon tool for american political interests…KENYA military is much more superior than uganda and rwanda combined in terms of equipment and training…the other two armies are just masses of men in gumboots.rwanda have no airforce no navy, and its population cannot sustain a proper full blown war….And uganda is trying very hard to march and surpass kenya… but so far they are still outgunned in all areas…
dont believe everything the CIA says, they are after all masters in disinfo and the same guys behind dubious projects like Mk Ultra.
The G3 battle rifle is calibered for the 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge. The stopping power of this round is devastating and its range is superior to the 5.56 mm cartridge i know you are thinking about. Special forces are know for their compact primary weapons like the M4, however there is a G3 variant with a collapsible stock to reduce its overall length while still maintaining its advantages in range and stopping power this weapon is ideal for tank crews and paratroopers and is also a favorite of some guys in the special forces. A special ops team chooses its weapons according to the type of mission they are asked to conduct, Kenyan Spec ops dont have a primary weapon per se but depending on the prevailing conditions and the mission parameters choice of weapon and loadout is dictated.
Personally am in love with a specially modified HK MP5 that uses a 9 mm parabellum cartridge its light, efficient, easily concealable, quite and lethal at close to medium ranges.
What exactly was it about the G3 that wasn’t appealing to you.
to reply on Chinook posting on May 13, 2010 at 10:23 am: its about the quality of the arms we poses and military comprehension towards them that makes a key differences.
can kenya wildlife rangers be used as infantry in case of war and our army is overwhelmed,how abouth the RDU of the AP?
do we really have a reserve force within the military??
Its almost amusing for c.i.a to rank Ug and Rwanda No 8 and 9 respectively though i wonder the origin of this information.Lets look at the bascis:The main tank in u.p.d.f inventory is T 62s and a T 55s.They have no credible air defence system and anti armor capabilities.To be honest,they have no serious operation mobility and just like one Ugandan (spartan) said, “they can match on foot to Mombasa like they matched to congo”. Their training manual compared to kenya is in lay mans terms can only be described as ancient.
Several blogs above have advanced this subject and am not gonna repeat.Except for the much talked about su 30s that Ug aquired,the other hardware they own belongs to NAIROBI MUSEUM.
As for Rwanda,for someone to seriously refer them as a major army that counts,it would be the same as calling raretarded kid a proffessor just because he lives next to a university .
Rwanda may hold its own in a chaotic bush war but we are not talking about insurgency and trench warfare.
Chinook, you sound ridiculous i must say. All the answers you are looking for are clearly detailed in this blog. Just scroll up and you will see. Also visit the other related blogs:- ‘Kenya armed forces pictures’ and ‘ Uganda army a hardened battle force’.
However to answer your question, the wildlife rangers can indeed be used. They among the best bush fighters in this region of the world.I will leave others to answer you about the reserve force, para-military, first line of defense,RDU, etc.
Separately, we were holding brief for Risasi,’D’, and Tororo to finish their previous discussion. Can we come back now guys? I presume it is all clear now.That bit of discussion seems to be over.
Chinook,
The number of tanks and fighter jets in a country’s arsenal is obviously not an indicator of that country’s strength. In 1967 & 1973 Arab-Israeli wars, the Israeli tanks and fighter planes were outrageously outnumbered by those from allied Arab forces, but tell me who won the war and in very short order?
The thing about numbers is misleading. You need to look at quality and also whether the various machines are in a functional and serviceable state.You also need to look at the available trained personnel to man the machines otherwise they may end up rusting in storage just like a huge slice of Libya’s arsenal. For Kenya, what we have is adequate for our current needs, We may add a few things here and there just for improvement and replacement.
Remember that not everything posted in the inventories of Ethiopia and Sudan is still there. A lot of material is either too rusty as a result of age or has been lost to attrition as a result of war in the two countries.Kenya has not used her arsenal in war hence most of it is still intact.
Most of Ethiopia’s military tanks are museum type T-55s. The Sudanese do not fare any better with their aging Chinese copies of the T-55(i.e the T-59) although they are blending these with a number of home made copies of more modern Chinese copies produced under license.
Ethiopia’s most decent tanks are the 50 T-72s procured from Yemen and perhaps some 100 T-62s. This closely matches Kenya’s number of 186. The others(i.e the T-55s) are trash.May be these can be overrun by our 92 recon. vehicles.
Raissi nothing has been conceded. I just had a few things to take care of (and if you may check the time slots when I post, you will realize that am in a different time zone and that’s the reason for some of the delay.)
One man Army I find it hard to believe that you were in Congo during the end of the last decade otherwise you would not have so many inconsistencies for someone who was on the ground. For example you fail to note that all kabila’s help (Angola, Zimbabwe, sudan etc) managed to do was stop Kinshasa from being taken over. They were under siege and the country was essentially divided into a half. So the helpers decided to fortify themselves in Kinshasa. This is when the Lusaka peace agreement came about. We controlled the mineral rich east and south of congo and This is now how part of that Kisangani clash starts. Rwanda still wanted to move on onto Kinshasa UG was thinking what for besides a peace agreement had just been signed meanwhile some officers were “borrowing “some of Congo’s wealth. So when Rwanda saw this they thought they could Advance on their own problem was that some UPDF units were in their way and hence the fights. (You could say those units saved Kinshasa because Rwanda was determined to attack). This area at this time was so tense that if you could not be identified with anyone you were shot or hacked on spot. (Not even the UN forces that came out to patrol could dare move out). There were faction clashes, ethnic clashes total madness. And this is a place one man army says he was? The moment someone could not identify you, you were dead, no excuses.
Now just one question why does the C.I.A have to be lying when it places the UPDF above Kenya in army strength? I like I have said before there is a reason why the west chooses UG to be the “policeman” of the great lakes region. They believe in our capacity to handle any situation.
I will give you the answer to your question Chinook. The keanyan army is mostly referred to as a peace time army, good for peace keeping and natural disaster help. The UPDF on the other hand is a conflict resolving force hence its standing and missions.
Welcome back Tororo. First, i thought you had hanged your boots on the ‘D’s and Risasi’s topics. If not we will wait for you three to finish discussion before we post other things.
One thing though, let’s not dwell much about the CIA rankings.They really do not mean much and cannot be used to separate the various militaries. For instance you will note that a number of countries are not ranked. Countries that appear to be ranked are actually those who have recently participated in war hence statistics are available. Uganda and Rwanda both score highly in this regard as a result of battle experience.And Uganda’s UPDF is one of the strongest military forces in Central Africa anyway( that is according to the reputable Janes defense weekly) so let’s bear that in mind and give credit where due.
However we do not know how the UPDF is likely to fare in a war against Kenya or Tanzania. Kenya is well trained, well armed and well financed. Tanzania’s force is also well trained, fairly well armed(especially artillery)and highly disciplined. Uganda is catching up in material(they have been buying weapons since 1998), in training and have a wealth of battle field experience.In essence each of these East African forces has a strong point. I can only hope that these synergies are used for the benefit of all East Africa especially in the light of mineral wealth discoveries in the region.
And by the way Tororo, UPDF has not been ranked above Kenya army. The Kenya army is not shown in those ranks.May be i have not seen.Show me.
JUST TO suport you olekoima..the same janes defence says on its risk assesment page that kenyan military is the best and well trained ,best equiped and financed in the region ..so how can it be ranked below uganda?
Tororo
On this blog my friend uganda and rwanda are extensively discussed and i slipped when i mentioned rwanda instead of Angola.Its also fair for me to note that the angolans did not enter the war to fight Ugandans back to their millitary barracks but to defend kinshasha so your assertions that they were sorrounded and confined to the capital is not true.With all due respect,if not for the angolans and the Zimbabwe airforce reinforcing Kinshasha the Rwandans could have overun the place.
Its also important to note that what Angolans brought to bear in terms of Man and machine against the rwandans and ugandans could have easily inihilated you guys.
I will tell you first hand that as soon as the ANGOLANS came in,the tide of the war changed drastically and the battle for the capital had been lost.
Tororo,and others,
The reason that Uganda seems to be ranking well? is because of their willingness to deploy all over the region in order to gain favour with the west.KENYA military only deploys externally for peacekeeping purpioses.LOOK AT KENYAS peacefull deployment as shown below
1 )NAMIBIA-KENYA army was selected by the UN and mandated to train and make the Namibians to be self reliant from the time they were gaining indipendence from apartheid south africa.THIS task was done to international standards…, such that kenyan top generals were at later stages put in charge of several UN missioins all over the globe.
2)THE BAKLKANS-KENYA army units were deployed under UN mandate and did a superb job in very hostile and racially charged environments
3)SIERA LEON-KENYA army deployecd under un mandate and performed with flying colours to disarm the variious factions with ease
4)EAST TIMOR-kenya ARMY officers deployed under UN observer status …
There are other countless missions that the KENYAN MILITARY HAS DONE to international standards which is testimony to the best training they get
UGANDA and rwanda have recently come into the frame but they have not achieved much as you can see what is happening to them in SOMALIA and DAFUR RESPECTIVELY.
The point here is that we are a peace full force for good in the region and if their is any externall threat the military is equiped to respond very fast very effeectively abnd decicivelly..and the kenyan public are always avilable to support them
THE paramilitary units like the GSU and the ADMIN police recieve lots of weapons training from ISRAELI instructors and these are our first line of defence
The GSU alone can do lots of damage to any force that underates them.. because their weapons handling tactics training is very efficient.THEY have a very strong commando unit that deals with anti terror, VIP protection,state assets protection,and have more than once stormed hijacled planes and rescued hostages on kenyan soil without any casualties thats why hijackers will avoid kenya by all means.
SO my brothers let it be known that if kenya was to change its posture from peace to aggression in the region i can tell you for sure that KAMPALA will fall within days, SOMALIA is a piece of cake and RWANDA has no chance at all .
This so called CIA and Janes DEFENCE rankings mean nothing… look at libya which has over 2000 soviet tanks where is it ranked?look at nigeria with a very large army and navy where is it ranked? look at ethiopia with the largest army in africa where is it ranked ?and yet the small Eritrean army fought them to a standstill..infact we have kenyans deployed there for peacekeeping oberver purposes,look at EGYPT which has amodern army which can outgun any modern first world army and yet they lost over 100,000 men and equipment during the ISREAL conflict…that affected them so muych that they entered a peace deal with the Isrealis.they lost the war beccoz of bad tactics and lack of battlefield military inteligence.
KENYAN military operatives are all over east africa and beyond looking and making sure that we have the information needed case we are to deploy in any theatre of war in the region
and this is not just hearsay but the truth…AT the moment we would rather work for peace than make war..but this is not an excuse for guys like some i have read on this blog to think that we are weak…
Now that’s a sober assessment of the situation Olekoima. No one knows exactly the outcome a war between the EA 3 nations that’s why I have not said that UG would win the war outright (am not looking into this from a kids point of few who thinks Ooh my daddy is stronger than yours kind of thing) An engagement here could have an “out this world” kind of result. We have always looked at the possibility of war in Kenya and what would be kenya’s first reaction. (This is why museveni has instead on an oil refinery in ug and now the southern route Through Tz is being revitalized for When Kenya blocks access to the sea. When these two are accomplished that will tweak whatever war plans existed) Now as for what these plans look like you know that can’t be discussed but it is upto individual states to see the developments in each country and try to figure out what the other might be planning and you see why I think UG’s advantage of Kenya and TZ is that we have a military leader while the other two have politicians and we all know how politicians tend to mess with military plans, strategies and contingencies including top secrets.
One man army, The Angolans were one of the first Armies to retreat. Matter of fact the Lusaka peace agreement was them and the Zimbabweans idea. When they weakened the RDC militia and now realized they were going to come into direct confrontation with the UPDF , they stop with whatever ground they had won. The UPDF moved units from Kisangani to Liebo in preparation for an offensive that never happened. And the Rwandans were also preparing at mbuji mayi Now like I said a true solider never knows the outcome until the end of the battle. Only if this fight had occurred would we have known the results
Patrick I will address your post later.
A treaty is still in place between Kinshasa and Angola whereby Angola will come to the aid on Kinshasa it is in danger of being overrun and occupied by foreign forces, in return Congo refutes all its claims to the Kabinda region.
Uganda is only a ‘policeman’ because it is willing to serve in such a capacity, Tororo scan through previous posts on the changes in leanings (either western or eastern) of Kenya over the past few years.
Remember when it comes to ‘policing’ volatile region Uganda cant hold the candle to Kenyans record, whereas you say Uganda is policing the region Kenya has done it all over the world, from Ethiopia, Rwanda to Liberia, Siera Leone and as far as Bosnia, we have had troops serve there under the auspices of UN in various peace keeping capacities, remember these are just but a few of them.
Notice how since 2003 these missions are fewer and far between. While the western interest in UG has grown considerably in the same period. Take a look at recent military purchases, development partnership and even aid grants and loans. It is no secret that what the UN and the US have in common is more than the word united, the UN IS the US and make no mistakes about it peacekeeping missions are a cheap, legal and open way of keeping your troops in top battle mentality.
All that happened is that when Kenya turned east the UN turned West of the border. For its manpower needs.
On the CIA issue i think its best not to dwell on it too much as its info is pegged on a lot of misconceptions, ommission and old data, the fact that they put UPDF numbers at 80,000 is a testament to this.
I would be glad if you posted a link to this particular site or at least give us a breakdown of the data they listed so that we could compare their numbers to what i posted on May 9 1010 hrs.
This debate about UG and the Congo is going off-color, guys. There is no ground to be gained anymore from a continued engagement. We need to break off, redeploy. WHY? Each covert insertion as standard practice is only complete after a full-length debrief after extraction. During debriefing, each facet of the Op is covered from every angle; the ‘horrible’ G2 and G3 guys, hell all staff branches, take you through the entire deployment IN MINUTEA! They wring you dry, literally. A lot of these debriefed materiel / lessons are already in use in Combat schools curricula now for years – how to run a successful or failed covert insertion operation and what not to do etc.. It is part of our Kenya Armed Forces body knowledge – It is all there, guys, and if you are uniformed you have access to this Data though probably not in it’s raw form. SO – we covered these two wars on advanced Recon and Intel insertions prior / during / and post – there was a real possibility of this war drawing in more African Countries into it, and we were certainly not going to seat this one out, I assure you. We still have men in there even today!! Tororo has every right to want to believe what he wants to, but honestly I think continued exchanges on this subject have run their full course. So Olekoima, either we redirect this blog, or it will loss relevance. On an aside favorite topic, “D” has not quite disclosed that every men personalizes his weapons, makes alterations /improvements that respond to his particularly character/ personality. So the weapon becomes one with you, an extension of you, and speaks with you exactly. An AKM74 may be the preferred weapon of choice for different guys but their different body sizes may make it necessary for variations to be made of its weight/length/balance etc to suite individual chaps. You’re married to the thing, really get married to it – although at basic school in Lanet / Eldoret they did already start this marriage courtship as all remember! In the hands of another chap, mine can still shot and kill but it is different, feels different, reacts different, could cost him his life. Also, some chaps go in with more than one weapon, for a variety of reasons, tis really up to each chap so long as he do not hold back his stick/squad coz the weight he lags. Me, when I go in, my primary is a UZI standard Military issue .45 ACP model with the 16-round Mags; a HK MP5 9 mm parabellum as a secondary with a detached Full-sleeved silencer; a leg-strapped Tanfoglio T95 Combat pistol 10mm Auto pistol whose maximum average pressure of 37,500 psi will kill you dead from hydrostatic shock alone, and will tear clean-off any body limbs it hits anywhere! It is not a picnic or dance one is invited to.
ole nkarei…your comments are always appreciated and i AGREE THAT we need to direct this discussion to more fullfiiling matters…so let us see how ohers will respond..eg economic and socio politicall issues in relation to military activity in rthe region and how this will pan out…THANKS GUYS and keep this blog active as it now the best open forum so far for east africans …
Chonook and others
FURTHER to my input above i dont see why you think the G3 is an inferior weapon..remember the G3 was for many years the NATO standard weapon and is still widelly used the world over.it is acurate and the 7.62 calibre can hit targets over 1000 meters range compared to the AK47 which is favoured by most guerilla forces and criminals because it is light and easily carried hence child armies tend to use it.The effective range for AK47 is just over 600 metres…i stand to be corrected but the last time i looked, most ugandan and rwandese armies primary rifle is the AK 47.
FURTHER MORE KENYA NOW PRODUCES its own munitions at ELDORET for this rifle and other variants under warranty from the original manufacturers.
Poleni guys there are errors on the post above …the ranges i have reffered to relate to effective site ranges for sniper configurations but the proper shoot to kill ranges are almost simillar.the variations are mostly on the muzzle velocities for both rifles.the g3 is higher than the ak 47..and the effect on the human body is very devastating.The first time i saw the effect of g3 rile bullet on the human head was in 1987/1988 and the images lived with me for years.
JUST been advised that a french conpany has won an international tender tender to REFIT AND UPGRADE THE two kenya navy missile vesels Nyayo and Umoja.These will be converted into fast attack missile craft that will be used to help fight piracy and keep kenyan waters safe.so who says we are not taking stock of the situation?am also told pans are at a an advanced stage to nuetralize the percived SU 30 THREAT from uganda.
kenyan defence planers are not sleeping man.
i agree with you pato i had a chat with some friends of mine in the forces and they laughed when i mentioned su 30….they said very little lakini one of them intimated and told me tuko ahead na information – the ug su’s are nothing with what [we] are looking into – i felt we have more in store but no one wanted to volunteer info…they only said “tuko imara angani” bro usiogope…
Chalo, Pato, waKenya, lets get a move on. This story of the SU30MKK and the so-called threat matrix from UG is old stuff that we have debated to death already. There are three sites on this very subject running alongside each other on this blog now for nearly a year. !! And see the quality of response we get from across the divide? It is done, fellas, let’s move on – Energy and Rapidity is the guiding principle of our Special Forces – you lose energy, you die, you lose motion, you die. Lets move on people!!
sawa sawa boss for now i will stand easy….
Ole Nkarei is right there is nothing new we can discuss on the subject. Every aspect in the public forum has been examined thoroughly. Its now up to the men of action to act as they see fit, we men of thought have done our part.
Remember it is not only UG that has advanced fighters in the region Sudan and Ethiopia dont fare too badly in this sector either. The upgrade of KNS Umoja and Nyayo is welcome news, although i doubt that the pirate situation is not the sole motive behind this move. Remember we have at least 8 different navies in those waters most of them represented by entire carrier groups. I say the pirates are more than taken care off without us having to step in.
the thread is becoming more and more interesting,i’ll revert soon with the CIA top ten African armies ranking.i asked a question wether the kws rangers can be used as infantry incase of war and if kenya have a reserve force but no answer is forthcoming.
patrick(uk)
i find some of your chat misleading with referance to post on may 13 at 923pm.
chalo
to believe those guys,no plan afoot for fighters at the moment,if any its just on papers.
chinook
what do you find misleading?please let me know and we can sort it out any mistakes can be corrected
chinook
please point out what you think are the disparities on my 0923 pm chat and i will respond with hard facts.where i can and let me just remind you that i have been in this business since 1984
dont bother with this shot about CIA ranking and as shown else where on this blog…the CIA aseesment is not accurate and not at all reliable.
Chinook, Believe what you want, mate. Tis your right after all. You could, if you want adduce new facts / conjecture / suppositions that would alter substantively the body of knowledge already posted here from the top, and that will give reasons to examine and advance this debabte. Or you could simply dismiss all you dislike as propaganda and disinformation. All that is a justifiable reaction that no one will hold against you. But for crying-out-loud let’s move on!! Further debate is just an directionless argument. As concerns the KWS as Combat troops – you ever wondered why the AP and the Blue GD police react to similar situations in diametrically different manner? Or the GSU to these other two? Or why the 3rdKAR were able to wipe out resistance in Moi Air Base in 1982 with such laughable ease? It is all about the Combat Philosophy that defines each formation! This is what conditions and creates the soldier. It is necessary that this is carefully defined because success on the tasks assigned to each formation depend on it. In my formation we train to kill – period. No question asked. We evaluate everything around us on that precept alone. Sending my unit into a situation where the AP have need for Armed assistance will definitely result in a body-count that will be difficult to justify after the fact of commission – ERGO the Army stayed in the Barracks during most of the PEV for precisely this reason – until the right mix of troops were assembled to step in when it did. So that using the KWS as combat troops just isn’t in the cards, mate. They will probably play a little role with the army recce units, or play a limited tasks-specific role with our advance recon, but most likely we would use them better to suppress and hold ground already taken by forward units of the Military. But where are you going with this awkward question you keep posting of the KWS?
OLE NKERAI,CHINOOK, I ALSO dont understand the question on the role of KWS. however the kws is good in what it does and is lethal when deployed against small lightly armed bush fighters.they did a good job wiping out poarchers with the help of those chaps from the army at 50 AIR cavalry using the bell choppers after the then CnC MOI gave the order in the late eighties
I ALSO KNOW THAT all our frontline Airport security personel employed by the kenya airports authority undergo basic training and screening at the kws camp at manyani since year 2005, for three to six months
from what you can see since they spend most of their time in the bush the kws can easily be converted to a major fighting force if the need arrizes… but for now the roles are limited.
Further to this i attended one of the training modules for the Kenya airports security personel at KWS manyani camp and also the passing out parade in 2005 as an observer for one international organization .and i must tell you that the training these recruits went through met and even surpassed the standards set..MOST of these are deployed at all check in security screening desks together with KENYA police and in some cases the GSU personell to help them.they are the civilian faces you see at check in counters at all airports in kenya.
Kudos men,you’ve left me mouth washed,affirmative over!!
“Expletive – a curse, and oath, an invective, and exclamation”, so what is this, an English language class for retards, or a grown-assed soldier blog? Hey Chinook, during my soldiering life, especially the earlier years, I can admit without shame that I have had my butt kicked a coupla of times, nearly had my head handed to me a couple of those times. Been extracted from some tight spots on stretchers a number of occasions too, my tail between my legs literally. Have scars on me that would make any young fella greatly admired by the ladies, man. Some Ops Iam not too happy speaking about due to the failure they were – not from a lack of effort though. I mean, getting your arse occasionally kicked, like you supposed happened to Brig. Mulinge in SL ( which in fact was not the case) is part of becoming a good well-trained and fully-conditioned soldier – to lose some and to win some more. Of course the later is preferred ,but all good soldiers know this is a simplistic and utopian an expectation. You learn to drag yourself up from each new setback, get right back to training, learning from your setbacks as you go along, waiting for the next assignment. A good number of my setbacks have not even been really Military failures. For instance, In the Ituri and North Kivu, I have watched stuff going down that when revealed shocked humanity, witnessed such horror while helplessly held back by a mandate that did not allow our interventionist action, a number of ‘Sticks” of half-coy strength of fully-armed/ready Delta chaps just watching, itching and ABLE to rain bloody hell on these murderous demons, wipe out every motherfu.. one of them many times over. Pregnant mothers repeatedly raped in their full-bloom, then bayonet through the uterus openings to silence evidence of the perfidy of the satanic militia; little children of both sexes herded into slave pens, fished out like goats each time some guys scratched his ball. We tracked these bandits from metres away, days on end, taking away supposed snitches (might have been family feuds settling scores) and then literally skinning them alive within meters of our half-coy “sticks” and to slow-roasting them alive over a camp-fire to be served as dinner. The pungent smell of scorched human flesh suffocates me even now each time I seat around a camp-fire; I still hear the howls of these poor souls eventually taper off into whimpers before finally going silent. Chinook, after a deployment lasting just a couple of weeks in this equatorial “desert of death” any soldier that hadn’t learnt to get up and get back to training and to conditioned himself from occasional setbacks as supremely as we do, risks losing his very soul. But we stood by coz intervening was outside our Mandate. The Mandate of Brig. Mulinge was not to get into fire-fights with hopelessly outgunned, half-crazed teenagers barely out of their childhoods, lacking a real reason to fight except to fight! Those boys wouldnt have withstood the force Brig. Mulinge had in his control. Brig Mulinge’s Mandate was precisely what he did, and that he carried himself to such vindication is truly indicative of the quality of leadership our Military Establishment. A lesser person would have ordered his chaps into action, and the results of such a senseless action would still be reverberating in history even today. So that a properly defined Mandate determines a Soldier’s action on the field, and when this mandate changes for whatever expedient reasons, then the Soldier responds appropriate to function within the parameters defined by the New Mandate. Please don’t be too hasty to see Military action in such black-and-what terms because this will not be correct. It is never so single-faceted as that, buddy.
Ole Nkarei and ‘D’. I agree we need to move to something else. I think we have really exhausted what there was to discuss about this Sukhois business. We really risk repeating ourselves on the same.
Both of you have set the pace on a different line of discussion. Let the rest of us follow suit.
Separately, i stumbled on some information that Kenya is seeking to procure some drones (UAVs) for border surveillance from Israel along with some other COIN equipment. May be some of you already have this information in detail. Please share.
ok olekioma…point noted we need to move on…about the UAVs… it sounds good and i will sniff around my sources and revert back to this blog however the philosophy behind this idea makes sense since one UAV can cover hundreds of miles for less cost at more time for hours and hours with good result.
In the almost cover less terrain of the Northern Frontier an armed UAV can be a devastating weapon. It can strike with precision and surprise that few resources can match, personally i have no info on that issue but as soon as i can verify anything ill keep you posted.
I talked about the building of a Lamu port and some of its effects yesterday. This move would also precipitate the formation of a Coast Guard to cover up areas of coastal policing that the KN cannot touch. It would also necessitate an expansion of our Navy to give it aviation capabilities.
T HE US government has in the recent past indicated it can help kanya to set up a coast guard unit..but the kenya goverment indicated that it needs legislation to form such an armed unit and for now only the KNS is charged with patroling THE kenyan waters.however there is massive interest in lamu by the US due to persived links to terrorism.remember the THE PRIINCIPLE planner/executer of the 1998 NAIROBI bomb plot lived in lamu for years under cover until ALL qaida activated him.
FURTHER more the kenya government would rather enhance the capacity of it navy before going for the coast guard options..that is why the US
/kenya has agreed to allow a kenyan navy senior officer to act on one of its ships the USS SWIFT operating between the red sea and the indian ocean.THIS OFFICER is the main link for coodinating operations between the US NAVY ships and the kenya navy along the kenyan coast.
Further to this the USS VESSEL mentioned here is the USS SWIFT (HSV2). you will note that it has paid visits to KNS HQ more and more recently.i will not name the rank and name of this kenyan navy officer due the sensitivy of the matter…but am sure most you may already have this infor from elsewhere.
The US has its own reason for blacklisting Lamu. However the port deal has already been signed and awarded to China, it is china that is to benefit from this new port, its influence in Africa is in a steady rise. In almost every country in the sub Sahara Chinese influence is visible from military to civilian projects, Africa is its main source of raw materials for its booming industries, to get raw materials for rubber manufacturing for example a ship has to sail all the way from the Ghanaian coast down south to the cape then up north again towards the far east, a port in Lamu together with a transcontinental highspeed railway cuts down this trip by half distance and a couple of months by time.
As expected South Africa will be incensed by this especially considering the fact that the fiber optic deal also didn’t go their way, Dubai will also feel the pinch. The UAE despite being Arabs are American chronies and over 70% of the skilled jobs in Dubai are occupied by expatriates, no prices for guessing who majority of these expats are from.
Further more the prosperity that will arise from this project will be felt not only in Kenya but in all countries the transcon railway passes through, jobs will be created, infrastructure improved and the standard of living will go up dramatically, the west is already taking a beating in Africa, all its affiliated institutions have lost clout in the recent past, firms like the IMF and the World Bank have resorted to wooing countries to take their loans while in the past it was quite the opposite they’d dictate the terms of giving the loans.
In short Africa is rich and Kenya has landed the opportunity to be the gateway for all these riches. The chosen partner is China not US (by the way America’s biggest lender is China). The Chinese have already overtaken the US as the biggest economy in the world. And by securing Africa another nail has been delivered to the Americans economic coffin. I imagine Uncle Sam is not happy
quite right about chinese intentions in this region and i agree with you that UNLCE SAM isnot happy especially when you consider that the chinese are the biggest holders of US BONDS..amounting to something like THREE trillion us dollars..that swhy the US is moaning and pushing the CHINESE to increase the value of the yen vesus the doller.IF THEY DID the value of the bonds held will deckline so much that the economic hold the chinese have on the US will also decrease.
CHEAP and abundant surply of labour has made the chinese the preffered manufacturing base for most of the major western manufacturers GOODS and this trend will not end soon since the western economies labour costs are too high ..hence things are moving east… all the time.
Now, there is substance in this blog, guys, we are into strategic thinking, independent of the Western so-called think-tanks. I said that Kenya’s Military growth is to become the Fulcrum shoulder around which East and Central Africa pivots. That is one Mother of an objective, much greater than the diversionary tactics of bandit-kings (you know who I mean by now) doing the bidding of their western masters. They raped the Congo, until Kenya and a few other African Countries told them we would force them out by any means possible. “D” scripted projections are spot on, particularly in the envisage direction of growth of this region. Essentially, because it is no longer possible to divide Africans on Ideology, they use technology and trade to keep us down. Both these are available without restrictive conditionalities from China, and as we break free more of our brothers, we will begin to dominate the trade in our own Natural wealth and finally fight our way to the table. In the Military we have prepared for a decade now for this quantum growth we anticipate that our taking out the Oil and expanding into the Central Africa will result. Deep-water Port of Lamu is central to this strategy, which is why the Americans have fought it including their insistent demand for a permanent Naval presence there or near there. AFRICOM suffered rejection in Kenya when we exposed it for what it really was. We must break free, and China as shown us how. So that the implosion of Somalia becomes justified in the greater good it will result to Africa in the not too distant future
In short it is kudos to the government for embracing ties with the East. See how the Chinese and the Japanese are now competing- all to our benefit.
All uncle Sam and the West did after the end of the cold war was to molest us to the point of dictating our political destiny. They never for once thought that they would ever need us.After all the cold war was over and we were now irrelevant.
Now they are all over the place trying to woo even former Soviet allies like Uganda.
Guys, the Chinese might be after their interests, but at least they are not as disappointing as the US. And look at what we all stand to gain. The Lamu port and the accompanying developments are almost enough to propel us to a middle income country in so short a time-yet we have been independent for over 40 years and dependent on western aid that has not done much.
What is more, China is like a one stop shop where we can buy goods ranging from military hardware to utensils if we like.
patrick(uk)
you were nort right in kenya army’s role in Siera Leone conflict,they never perfomed with flying coulours as you perfect it.\
i know the region where they were deployed and wat happened,if at all you were there you can concur to me that the boys were disarmed and taken captive and wen the commander went visiting UN/AU mission,they were captured too.
it took the efforts of the indian commandos and air cover from the british to have the solder released.
BACK to CIA ranking,thise are the order of the battle
1–Egypt
2–South africa
3–Algeria
4–Morrocco
5–Libya
6–angola
7–Nigeria
8–uganda
9–Rwanda
10–kenya
suprisingly another source rank kenya at NO 4,if find this confusing me
Chinook,
Like we have already stated, don’t read too much between the lines on these so called rankings.Different criteria are used to arrive at these things. That is why Kenya is placed 4th in another ranking and 6th elsewhere.Isn’t this confusing?However each ranking serves the purpose of the criterion used and is correct in its own right. These are just the same as the Coca-Cola FIFA rankings in football which in reality mean nothing on the practical ground.
Where would you for instance place countries like Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Tanzania and even the Sudan? Don’t you agree they are among the most formidable forces?
How is it possible that Libya is placed a head of say Angola or Rwanda a head of Tanzania . Where is Chad?
Do you really believe that little Rwanda could even dream of threatening Tanzania?
Chinook,
Siera Leone was no doubt a bloody affair for our troops. But what happened out there was not their fault. I wasnt there heck i wasnt even military then just a pimply faced youth who loved guns but from my knowledge if it wasnt for Brig. Mulinge’s valour the bloodhed would have been worse, plus it was a UN peacekeeping mission, which means the heaviest weapons you carry as troops in blue berrets are GPMGs on squad levels and you arent allowed to shoot unless you are shot back. The Kenyan contingent volunteered to man a sector even those British and Indian forces you mentioned shunned shamelessly, Uncle Sam still smarting from his debacle in Somalia was reluctant to commit troops to any African conflict. Yet our boys were there with a sense of duty and bravery lacking anywhere in the world at that time with all the limitations of serving under a blue berret and constricting rules of engagement with nothing but personal weapons they stood firm. Those men were heroes and the ones we lost went down as soldiers. Look up your facts and you will see most of the UN personel captured we unarmed observers and that the British force that intervened was not under the UN thus had the mandate of using any force necessary.
On another issue; that ranking you put up raises some question about the reliability of using such lists to determine the real strengths of an army, Libya for example which is number 5 was thoroighly humiliated by Chad which does not even appear on the top 10 what is the criteria they used to arrive at these rankings?
Finally Olekoima hits it spot on. For forty years there was America worship not only in Kenya but all over Africa. Surely had they wanted what is best for the people they would have instituted such projects. Lord knows they had the money and know how instead they armed governments and funded rebels. Any forward thinking African leader was quickly eliminated.
It is no secret that the British had a massive hand at Idi Amins rise to power in UG, the war in Angola pitting Cuba and Portugal was indeed Soviet Union Versus USA in terms of funding, supply and training. All the wars in Africa have been smoke screens. You fight in the north while they harvest the resources in the south to their benefit. China also have their motives, they are not doing this out of the kindnes of their hearts but at least this time it is symbiotic, you help us we help you, we let you drill oil you have to build roads and a refinery, that sort of thing. All the west has to offer is fancy terms and no product. Chinese products may not be fashionable but they work for us. What is the point of having F-16s if we have to call in a Major McSomething or a Colonel Smith just to fix minor glitches. Am not a racist gentlemen just a realist.
chinook
iwill tell the exact sequence of events in that mission later….
It was myself who indicated at the beginning of this blog that the assistance offered by the west is totally cosmetic and anyone who claims otherwise is dishonest,disingenous or delusional.For instance,just by diverting out eyes to the east,to china,the chinese have undertaken substantial projects like thika road,lamu port just to mention.All those years we engaged the west we cant boost of projects of this magnitude,just a few trucks here or there.The chinese have also been at the forefront of supplying our forces and my colleagues are telling me that major shipments for the airforce are underway.
My early morning call to be weary of the west was seconded by Nkarei and while the chinese may not be saints,african countries are a small fish in the ocean and we have to learn to survive without becoming a meal.withou being eaten by the big fish.
My point is that the devil is in the details.The question is who is the lesser devil!
The answer to one mans army question is clear to all who are above 15 years old in this country. Those who have lived in Kenya during both ideological schools of thought. We have seen what allegiance to America has brought us in the past 40 years, the resources have always been there and the ideas were never lacking. Even the country’s main stadium whose grass our boots stamp every national holiday was built by the Chinese.
Here is my layman’s roadmap to pushing Kenya into middle income status. Am not an economic planner so the timelines might be a bit off.
2012 – Commercial drilling of oil for domestic use begins in North Eastern Province. Followed closely by building of a second refinery in the North coast. (Kenya – Sino Partnership)
2014 – 2020 – Building of new Port in Lamu is completed, first oil exports to China and India. Building of transcontinental railway begins (Sino partnership)
2025 – Building of transcontinental railway at least reaching Rwanda is completed, East African region is open for business.
2030 – Full industrialization for civilian goods is achieved. Military hardware is still however outsourced.
Oil accounts for 90% of Nigeria’s annual income and covers 85% of their annual budget. If we could utilize our oil even if it is just for domestic use so as to eliminate the cost of energy importation it would be a huge boost to our economy. Completion of the port which by the way will be a free port will boost national revenues not only through its own use but by enhancing our perennial big income earners in tourism and agriculture. That way if any of these sources fail we would always have something to fall back on.
On the coast guard issue i think it would be essential if we are to utilize this port effectively (remember the Lamu project is not a hypothesis pen has already been put to paper) Enhancing our navy is almost to obvious to mention but remember what Ole Nkarei stated on May 14 1047 hrs about the philosophy and training of each formation. Sending a naval missile boat against pirates is complete overkill. Our mission then would not be to eliminate these pirates but to capture them in order to pacify the waters. It is also not within naval mandate to confront the pirates with force unless they are threats to national security, hijacking a cargo vessel carrying non military shipment in international waters constitutes national security threats. Plus a coast guard unit would also curb other issues like international drug running and illegal fishing. In our scenario it would not be a military branch like in the US but it would fall under the Internal Security docket. Those frogmen are not policemen they are mean killing machines.
As a Military man, and probably like a lot of you guys involved in strategic studies and specifically on the future politico-economic-socio developments of our Country and the environment surrounding and influencing these development, my greatest desire is that the political question now facing our Nation for the last twenty years be settled one way or the other sooner rather than later, so that we can refocus our boundless national energies and attentions to these challenges contained in this growth trajectory. And we all know that there is not another country south of Sahara that there is such intellectual energy in a people as Kenyans. Such that in any international gathering of any intellectual nature, you will find a Kenya in the thick of things. Couple of Kenyan guys I know raising very fast in the American Military who are first generation Americans – hell some of the Cross-Trainers in the Fort Braggs with our special force units actually speak English with that uniquely Kenyan twang! My conviction is that time indeed has come to put this political contest into proper context and move on. Hopefully we shall do so in August of this year during the referendum, from which will emerge a consensus that will have a life to grow and mature, as indeed all good constitution should. Then we shall conquer our part of this world, and we can, and so become the fulcrum around which the Centre of Africa will gravitate for the rest of this century. This is what we are focused upon even now, and not some senseless arms and military competition with a puny country with a bandit-king in suppressive leadership and whose political foundations have yet to be laid. UG has been but a detraction in the part of the world for over a decade, and it is not difficult to judge at whose behest her insidiously convoluted involvement in Sudan and the Congo. This SU30MKK is still a detraction, but if they reckon it put meat to the bone, we will very soon dissuade them entirely from any such notions.
not only in military sense is this SU30 saga a mind boggling idea but also from a civilian point of view. i doubt anyone would challenge the fact that the actual standard of living of the average kenyan vis a vis the average ugandan is uncomparable. we may have problems here at home but out there its much worse. the literacy levels, enlightenment and civil freedoms standard here in Kenyan are impressive.this blog itself is a living testament to this, articles on the UPDF are numerous on the WWW but you cannot find a wholesome open debate carried out by their personnel anywhere.not surprising considering the iron fist they have to live under each and everyday of their lives.criticism positive or otherwise by any of their soldiers on their command and how they carry out their core functions are punishable by court martial.in such an age that we live in this is detrimental to development of the individual men in terms of intellect an furthers hampers the growth of their formation in general. let us not mistake oppression with professionalism and loyalty because under my command i would rather have rapport with my men rather than have them cowering at the mere mention of my name.as a platoon sergeant (now you know my rank) i would rather have my men love me first rather than fear me.because when things turn south each other is all we are going to have out there.
Hi D can you clarify on the issue of standard of living between Kenya and UG.
Now on the issue of debate within an institution in this case the army because it’s the only one that has any kind of restriction in Ug, this is because we have maintained structure. The army has never been a democratic institution any where in the world (you are given orders and structure and you follow them). Who knows what someone would say if we didn’t have this makeup? In the army we have steps within in which someone can bring out any criticisms or idea to better ourselves and this is the forum that officers have to use and not the media or any where else. I mean even the most powerful military in the world today uses them same structure so what is the problem? Heck even the big fortune 500 companies don’t let unauthorized personnel speak on company matters.
Mr Ole nkarei you my friend have a serious case of inferiority complex. the raise of one nation should not really have you downcasted that you have to grasp at something as petty as having Kenyan natives in the US army. Am sorry to disappoint you and tell you that so many other nations UG included are well represented in the Marine Corps to the extent of even having the first black Flight director and international space station director of NASA. Being recruited into the corps is almost just like its done in Africa, nothing special about it but if you raise to the rank of a colonel and above I guess I would consider that an achievement (individual nevertheless) and remember one thing, these individuals wherever they are from, will always be dedicated to their adopted nations. Africans should start thinking about championing their local talents and not those that are outside from them
Tororo, are you utterly not able to offer an opinion without denigrating everybody else? Do you consider that you get cleaner by spluttering the rest of us with mud? Do you perhaps think that you educate anyone at all by your shallow contributions that lack any substantive intellectual content, baring your capacity to insult people? Are you then indicative / atypical of the UPDF Officer Corps – I AM myself indicative of Kenya’s Officer Corps to a dot, and have earned every bit of my ranking! Should we assume that your craven character is the symptomatic nature of the Military Establishment in Uganda? Are you taking lessons from KONY unstable irrationalities which he justifies by his grouse against M7? A while ago, Risasi tried to draw you out on the matter of the intellectual content of your leadership and you wouldn’t take the bait. Now, see how our Platoon Sergeants outfight you even before they put their men into Arms – “D” you expand my chest with pride when I read your posts, man!! Tororo, I will ignore you, completely, and your continuous insults, and let you crawl right back where you sprout out from
Thank you sir!!!
My opinion of Tororo is best summed up in 1 word UNPROFFESIONAL. Reminds we of one ugly guy i went to high school with, his name was Saulo he used to be the rugby full back this guy’s face was hideous!Anyway this Saulo character used to attempt to chat up every beautiful damsel anytime we had extracurricular functions. Because of his facial attributes or lack of thereof he used to get a cold shoulder with a sneer everytime and what did he do? Well the guy always resorted the verbally abusing the poor girls to the extent of calling them all sort of names ugly included….Talk about the pot calling the polished silver spoons black!
Anywho the complexes of socio – economic advancement of the African continent are vast. We stand at the thresh hold of greatness gentlemen. Reading from the general mood in the country id say we have a good chance of launching ourselves into it. Our public is a lot more matured from the past events, they are more open minded to positive ideas and most of them especially the younger ones are shedding negative things like tribalism. I was once in a matatu and two youths male and female were seated behind me. The girl asked the boy “wewe ni kabila gani?” without pausing a second, an automatic answer came from the boy “Mkenya!” just like that. As the times change and new generations take over (in my thinking of new generations i refer to mentally forward thinking people with new ideals) gradually these traits of patriotism and brotherhood will get ingrained into our collective minds. I may fault America for most of its foreign policy ideas but its people are some of the most fascinating and refreshing in the world. Despite all the wrongs their administrations put them through they are still proud of their country and what it truly represents, freedom, bravery and equality for all. When something goes you wont see the whites attacking the blacks coz the president is black or vice versa. They would attack the administration itself and demand for their dues. It is evident we can no longer rely on opposing politicians to keep each other in check, the people have to wake up and drive this country and the continent forward.
2010 – 2012 will be a big test for us and if we pass them with flying colours and grace our position as regional leaders will be firmly cemented while others continue to jail and gag opponents.
Dear brethren..
TORORO AND EVERYONE ELSE… it is for everyones interest on this blogg and for all intents and purposes that some characters be totally ignored since they are not offering any helpfull contributions but instead personalising issues and calling people absurdities which have no place in educative discussions.
IN particular i would kindly request Tororo to refrain from this kind of miopically retarded explatives which only serve to show where he actually belongs.
For this reason it my submission that we ALL BUNISH such charaters from this blogg by simply ignoring them..COMPLETELY…the old wise men say you can take donkey to the river but you cannot force it to drink..and i may hasten to add that every market place always has a mad man about.
Amen Patrick.
Patrick do you understand the meaning of the word expletive? Because inferiority complex does not fit in that category so I don’t think I cursed at anyone except to make a diagnosis. I will help you understand this complex – it’s a persistent sense of inadequacy or a tendency to self-diminishment, sometimes resulting in excessive aggressiveness through overcompensation. This is could affect entire cultures as well. The afflicted tend to deny its existence as a form of compensation.
Now look back and examine your statements and feelings towards UG and then my prognosis. If the shoe fits …
AS i had indicated earlier i do not wsh to be drawn into a direct exchange with you but i can tell you that my feelings towards uganda are not what you think.JUST to let you know that my parents worked in Uganda in the mid sixties and early seventies KAMPALA AND kasese (kilembe mines)
I SPENT MY EARLY childhood in kasese before the company my father worked for transfered him back to kenya to mombasa at his own request.Those were the good old dayswhen the EAST AFRICAN COMMUNITY WAS working before the politicians and recked it through the prism of the cold war devide…so my brother i have fond memories for Uganda and i have nothing against them
IN FACT IN my adult profesional life a have travelled many times between kenya ,uganda rwanda and eastern congo and i know the people have very good and respective feelings towards kenyans so please its time to be more objective and forward thinking in our interactions for the sake sober information exchanges on this forum.
And I have stated before that I have great respect for Kenya. During my childhood I used to have great holidays when I was in tororo and sometimes my dad would just take us for drives into Kenya. Some Airlines that I use going to UG would always stop in Nairobi and sometimes I would spend an extra night in Nairobi and I have always had a good time there. That’s why all my criticisms are directed towards individuals other than the whole of Kenya.
hold you fire men,hold your fire.
This is surely not an English contest. We are all African and English is perhaps a second or even a third language to all of us. I think the idea here is to pass the message in a manner understood by the rest. Let us not try to outdo each other using someone else ‘s language.We really do not have the monopoly and mastery of this language hence let’s not pretend.
Anyway we were already onto something interesting. Let’s go on with it. We are already discussing what is indeed in the best interest of the entire East African region -i.e infrastructural and related development and how this is going to open up the region and inspire growth which we have all craved for over the years.This other little distractions do not serve any good and are best ignored.
Elsewhere, debate on the disputed Nile treaty is raging. Contributing constructive ideas to this noble cause will be of benefit to us all as East African citizens as opposed to some immature mudslinging perfected by some blogger s here.
I agree language is not an issue here..anyway as we are trying to look at global issues without minor distructions FROM one?some? BLOGGERS with narow minds .the issue of the Nile Treaty seems to be the greatest test of any future stabilty in the region.
IT looks like the Sudanese are moving in to be on the side of the EGYPTIANS and i wonder how this will change the equation when for instance the South Sudanese vote for independance from the north in the upcoming referendum,WHILE the SOMALI are busy rushing into the arms of radical islamism..
THE socio economic status of each country in the region will to a large extend depend on increased economic cooperation AND INTERGATION especially between kenya,tanzania,uganda,burundi,
kENYA being the economic/commercial giant in the region needs to be forward thinking in that since it has more developed basic infrastucture advanced taxation regimes, can help by readily sharing manpower,trainning and expertise in resource mobilation and management for the benefit of all.
in REAL terms our leaders should have delt with this issue of NILE treaty long time ago when socio economic presures were still at the early stages.
AM notably impressed by the likes of Paul kagame who are very much in tune to this forward thinking…bearing in mind the he is using Kenyan experts to train set up and improve his own IT SYSTEMS while the south sudanese are basically relying on KENYANS to try and catch up with the north.
And I have stated before that I have great respect for Kenya. During my childhood I used to have great holidays when I was in tororo and sometimes my dad would just take us for drives into Kenya. Some Airlines that I use going to UG would always stop in Nairobi and sometimes I would spend an extra night in Nairobi and I have always had a good time there. That’s why all my criticisms are directed towards individuals other than the whole of Kenya..
That is fine Tororo,but let’s now direct our energies and thoughts to what will benefit us all as East Africans. Remember we all have basic similarities in the region and are also related even by blood in some instances.
The Nile treaty, regional cooperation and infrastructural development, etc are some of the things to discuss and even oil in Uganda and South Sudan.
Let’s keep away from expletive no matter their definition, and with honour debate to make this a real soldier’s blog. Hey Chinook, during my soldiering life, especially the earlier years, I can admit without shame that I have had my butt kicked a coupla of times, nearly had my head handed to me a couple of those times. Been extracted from some tight spots on stretchers a number of occasions too, my tail between my legs literally. Have scars on me that would make any young fella greatly admired by the ladies, man. Some Ops Iam not too happy speaking about due to the failure they were – not from a lack of effort though. I mean, getting your arse occasionally kicked, like you supposed happened to Brig. Mulinge in SL ( which in fact was not the case) is part of becoming a good well-trained and fully-conditioned soldier – to lose some and to win some more. Of course the later is preferred ,but all good soldiers know this is a simplistic and utopian an expectation. You learn to drag yourself up from each new setback, get right back to training, learning from your setbacks as you go along, waiting for the next assignment. A good number of my setbacks have not even been really Military failures. For instance, In the Ituri and North Kivu, I have watched stuff going down that when revealed shocked humanity, witnessed such horror while helplessly held back by a mandate that did not allow our interventionist action, a number of ‘Sticks” of half-coy strength of fully-armed/ready Delta chaps just watching, itching and ABLE to rain bloody hell on these murderous demons, wipe out every motherfu.. one of them many times over. Pregnant mothers repeatedly raped in their full-bloom, then bayonet through the uterus openings to silence evidence of the perfidy of the satanic militia; little children of both sexes herded into slave pens, fished out like goats each time some guys scratched his ball. We tracked these bandits from metres away, days on end, taking away supposed snitches (might have been family feuds settling scores) and then literally skinning them alive within meters of our half-coy “sticks” and to slow-roasting them alive over a camp-fire to be served as dinner. The pungent smell of scorched human flesh suffocates me even now each time I seat around a camp-fire; I still hear the howls of these poor souls eventually taper off into whimpers before finally going silent. Chinook, after a deployment lasting just a couple of weeks in this equatorial “desert of death” any soldier that hadn’t learnt to get up and get back to training and to conditioned himself from occasional setbacks as supremely as we do, risks losing his very soul. But we stood by coz intervening was outside our Mandate. The Mandate of Brig. Mulinge was not to get into fire-fights with hopelessly outgunned, half-crazed teenagers barely out of their childhoods, lacking a real reason to fight except to fight! Those boys wouldnt have withstood the force Brig. Mulinge had in his control. Brig Mulinge’s Mandate was precisely what he did, and that he carried himself to such vindication is truly indicative of the quality of leadership our Military Establishment. A lesser person would have ordered his chaps into action, and the results of such a senseless action would still be reverberating in history even today. So that a properly defined Mandate determines a Soldier’s action on the field, and when this mandate changes for whatever expedient reasons, then the Soldier responds appropriate to function within the parameters defined by the New Mandate. Please don’t be too hasty to see Military action in such black-and-what terms because this will not be correct. It is never so single-faceted as that, buddy.
CHINOOK,
as i had indicated earlier i do not wish to respond now about exactly what happenned at SL…BUT ICAN TELL you confidently that KENYANS were never disarmed as you seem to think.The press never got the story properly..and the INDIANS soldiers never came to kenyans rescue as you alledge. IN FACT KENYANS were left to die after the INDIAN general incharge of the UN mission refused to send help saying that he could not risk more lives by sending more people into rebel held territory..SO WHAT happenned?..BEFORE the whole thing became serious.the kenyans had got inteligence that they were imminently under rebel attack..they asked for back up with helicopters which were being manned by UKRAINIANS ..BUT help never came.The indians who had the large ammoured personel carriers also never came..The ukrainians commaner asked to take the mision to fly seven chopers in three sorties with gunships cover but stil the INDIAN GENERAL overulled him saying OFFENSIVE combat was not in their mission. ONE BRITISH commonder who had about two battalions of men who were not under UN mandate flew to UN HQ IN SIERRA LEONE and confroted the indian general who flatly refused to send any help..infact he stood up..looked at the map and circled the rebel held areas where kenyans were sorrounded and crosed it out saying he had already written off the 180 to 200 men.
THE british commander went back to his base but before departing he gave the indian general a piece of his mind and told him that he was wrong to simply write the kenyans off and was very sure that they would brake out because he knew they are among the best trained soldiers in the world
The BRITISH got intouch with the kenyans and after agreeing on a point of where to rendevouz..the kenyans decided to break out very early when the elemernt of surprise was best
The gamble worked but in the process three men died and one was lost in the bush.
the lost man a senior serge by rank was actually injured and survived for days hiding from rebels who were by now marrauding in the area…He survied by sheer will power until he was found by one farmer who hid him and fed him for three days before the rebels came back and found him.They killed him in cold blood and burried him near the road side in a shallow grave.
THE INDIAN GENERAL WAS AMAZED THAT THESE GUYS GOT OUT oF A VERY TIGHT SITUATION and infact he was later reilved from UN duties in disgrace and sent back home after which a kenyan general was put in charge.
The next kenyan mission to the area was now sent with a clear mandate not peace keepnig but peace enforcement.They also tried to find out exactly what happenned to the missing colleague and after intensive inveatigations..found this farmer who showed them were the ramains were burried.these were removed and sent to south africa for forensic DNA analysis at UN COSTS before being brought home for burial.
this IS ONE OF THE untold stories of the UN mission in SL
Pat, Is this info declassified yet, from your side? Well, well!! Anyhow, I can attest that Pat has laid this down as it was, without too much detail, without flavoring it, but as it was. You will see the thread that takes form from this incident, which vindicates both your men their leadership in Uniform, and also that Mission parameters determine the reaction of men at arms. The Indian General disgraced himself from his lacking courage to take necessary initiative out of the exigencies of the moment, but not from staying within his mandate – the British Colonel displayed just this, and hence their diametrically opposed interpretation of the Mission parameters between the two Leaders. Hey, Pat, you still doing security consulting for the UN?
OLE NKERAI
i wish i could disclose more without causing trouble as the real clasified infor on this and other missions involving UN peace keepers is subject to a need to know only because of other legal activities including the war crimes tribunal at the hague and ARUSHA.
…and for this i do want to disclose what am doing now ..for now but will respond at appropriate time.
C’mon Pat!! A lot of the background and real-time hard data you chaps are using in Arusha I sweated my guts and blood to get for you, mate!! Lost a number of very good men too! Go on, just give us what you can without the classified stuff, basic info or just generalities around the classified stuff – we can fill in the gaps for ourselves. What do the rest of you say, men? Kinda puts meat to the bone, you know.
I understand where we are heading to on this but you will appeciate my positioin for now.I WAS only trying to let our learned friend CHINOOK to know that what reads in the press on matters military is often not what it seems to be and he should forget about the so called CIA rankings as they are very misleading.
I ALSO thought we were moving to more strategic matters concerning our region…so for now let the bones be without meat for now BUT BE assured i will fill you in as the bloggs progress …i remember an old saying that SIMBA IKIKOSA NYAMA ..HUWA INAKULA NYASI…..sawa?
please forgiive my typographycal errors as am replying to this from my blackberry in the field and my keyboard is too small for my fingers….
Good info Patrick. We will make do with this for now.Thanks.
pat is not the only one making do with small keyboards…am also in the field but of the friendlier kind,training ops for paras am actually using army issue PDAs nkarei will know the lot,in built GPS satcomm tht kind of thing.i appreciate patricks post on the hapoenings in SL most of this i didnt know,we learn something new everyd
I wonder if someone would enlighten us if GPS sat-comm PDA is a the kawaida Kit for Platoon-Command with the UPDF? How does their standard issue Kit for a normal Platoon-level Unit compare with ours? Illuminates the Unit’s fight philosophy
So the Spetnaz storm the Russian Cargo Sheet, shooting every bandit dead, throw them back into their skiff with all their weapons, paraphernalia and then cut them loose. Their public relations office issues a blithe statement that one bandit was killed in the firefight, others taken hostage, and then released for what they claim were weaknesses in international laws against piracy – “why should we take the bandits to Moscow , feed clothe them and finally be stuck with them?”. A coupla days later, when nobody can locate the skiff on anybody’s radar nor on satellite overpasses, the Russian now tell us the dang thing must have sunk with all aboard, insisting all were set loose alive!! These slavs surely know zero-sum games alright! Deterrence without frills. Typical problem bedeviling law-enforcement, though I am not one a policeman – the Somali Bandits, like all criminals, have cleverly been using weaknesses of legal response to their illegal activities. But once we play by their rules, see how their banditry activities in the high seas dissipate from this one illegal action of the Spetnaz alone?
THE spetnaz deserve kudos…these pirates need such treatment…remember what the indian navy did ?they simply sank the pirate mother ship and skp some time back on the grounds of self defence….no survivers and we have not heard any repurcussions….these guys only understand brute force…so let them have it.
i had connection glitches yesterday, i am however back on my usual machine so no such problems expected today, i was thanking patrick on his informative blog on the Kenyan Peacekeepers actions in SL, highly informative. The GPS PDA is for training purposes only to help track deliberately scattered paras, it was a lone survival exercise and all my men were tagged and trackable as usual the y all performed to exceptional standards. I doubt whether this kind of equipment would be available in an actual war scenario at platoon level for every man, i think every platoon commander will be tagged and tracked at company level, its more economical and less prone to enemy tracking and jamming. No other armed force in the region applies the same level of technology and IT we do in ours, from the ELM2032 radar in the F5s to the laser range finder in the MBTs, the employment of Computer specialists in our forces is testament to this. Believe me if they wanted to find out exactly who we are just from this blog it would be as easy as ABC.
Am not up to speed with most of the recent posts, i havent had enough time between getting some sleep and debrief, am sure there are a lot of interesting things up there to keep me busy for the rest of the day.
Its an interesting situation unfolding on the Nile treaty. Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia and Rwanda have so far signed the treaty, it is expected Burundi and DR Congo will do the same very soon more specifically by the end of the month if not this week. That leaves Sudan who have outrightly refused to sign the new treaty and Egypt who say they will oppose it by all means. Am sure if S. Sudan was autonomous they would put pen to paper too. Anyway with Egypt and Sudan out numbered seven to two what do you think would be their best options in salvaging a degree of respectability from this situation without being seen to be giving in too much because in my opinion military action is out of the question, maybe economic sanctions which would however hurt Sudan more than it would benefit Egypt. Is it a case of the lower Nile countries flexing muscle against Arab states due to recent discoveries of oil in the region? The timing is a bit curious. It sure as hell serves up some interesting times ahead. What are your thoughts gentlemen?
Well,Egypt is no longer mentioning the military threat it has so fondly used in the past having seen that it is completely unworkable especially when the lower basin countries seem determined and not ready to be bullied anymore.What is more, the lower basin countries might just call Egyptian bluff and wait for her to launch a military strike( if it can without risking a lot including a possible military response on the Aswan high dam).Egypt also stands to lose her international clout if it pursues a military option.
Egypt is currently lobbying donors to withhold funding on all ‘unapproved’ projects on the Nile. Whether this will deter countries downstream from using the Nile waters remains to be seen, but in my view unlikely. Ethiopia just commissioned an electric project built from own funds.
The most sensible thing really for Egypt is to negotiate and press her point home. While doing so they must learn to respect the views of others-they need to forget what they are calling their historical rights.Other countries have rights too. We cannot starve just to please Egypt. In the unfortunate event that they choose war, then they should be prepared to live with the consequences for i don’t believe that they will not end up with a bloody nose too,however mighty they may be.
Well i mean countries upstream.I don’t think it is correct to say lower basin countries. Or is it?
The beauty of Africas Military balance is that not even the strongest can mount a successful multi fronted assault on the weakest. In this case the distance between the North and the Central east becomes a big ally. The importance of S Sudan as a buffer zone is also evident. As an Egyptian senior commander a naval propelled attack but logistical problems when it comes to dealing with the highly maneuverable KN is still a headache. Anyway all this is beside the point as Ole Nkarei puts it an economic solution to this problem is more economical in terms of humanity and funds. What i have to wonder is what does Sudan have to gain in refusing to accept the treaty, its not like the lower nile nations are looking to cut off water supply to the North completely. In accordance to the original Nile agreement (i doubt there was much of an agreement in it though seeing as it was signed by colonial masters with no regards to future happenings) 7 out of the 9 nile basin countries can amend the agreement despite the 2 remaining countries abstinence or protests. As soon as the remaining two countries sign it its legal in terms of international laws and Egypt will have to seek negotiation as a means to re amend it.
At risk of sounding arrogant and inconsiderate, why do the Great lakes nations have to listen to Egypt and Sudan and try to hold us to agreements that were signed by other people without our consent or consultations? I think we have been good enough to abide by this agreement as long as we have and now its time we used this resource to develop our region. For how long shall we be in darkness (I hate that whenever am in Africa) just because we don’t have enough dams to generate power for both economic and domestic use? Or the famine that strikes some countries but we can’t have irrigation schemes yet we have fertile lands only lacking water? Its time our Arab “brothers” realized that we are people too who need to live with the same comforts as everyone else in the world. The Egyptians have tried to woo UG with small Donations and also setting up kinds of small investments in irrigation schemes but am Glad the UG has still realized that this is not enough for either itself or its neighbors. I hope all the signatories to the new agreement stand firm to Egypt and Sudan whatever the threat they may pose. I have always believed that this EAC needs to develop as a region and not as individual countries. Think about how life in the region would be simplified if we work as one’ UG developing its OIL industry,Kenya handling the manufacturing sector, Rwanda with its large amounts of natural gas for the whole region and the sooner Congo finishes its mega dam the better for all of us. Then we get onto the transport sector; newer and faster rail line to cover the whole region, good roads (God knows we need them yesterday) and then better health care for everyone.
This I know can be accomplished within less than 10 years if we had the right leaders. The politicians especially in UG, Kenya and Tz are the ones holding us back cause look at what Rwanda has achieved with almost no resources to speak of but an iron hand of its leader. Once this has been achieved then we can go back (hopefully not) into the shenanigans of politics
This is exactly the point Mr Tororo. We all need to pool our resources and develop together as a region. There is a lot to gained by doing this. In addition we will have a huge clout and muscle in the international scene,-no Tom, Dick and Harry will afford to ignore us anymore.What is more we can even develop one military shield to cushion us from jealous and uncomfortable adversaries. Economic wise we will be the envy of entire Africa while life will immensely be comfortable for all of us. I wonder why leaders are not seeing all these.They are just selfish trying to prop up their regimes for their own comfort.Anyhow we are slowly heading into that direction and hopefully we are soon to realize this dream.
Gentlemen,
Just look at how rich this region is yet we remain poor. Aren’t we supposed to be ashamed of ourselves?
Uganda- Oil, gas, gold etc.
Tanzania- Gas, Diamonds, gold, Uranium, possible oil etc.
Kenya-Fluorspar, Titanium,Coal,Soda ash,possible oil and gas
DRC- Many mineral resources.
S.Sudan- Oil
Ethiopia- possible oil and gas
Rwanda/ Burundi-possible oil and gas.
What is wrong with the African mind?
The indoctrination about our mental inferiority drilled into us by the colonialists has never worn off. It still continues to this very day, as kids we were treated to films showing the greatness of american soldiers, their strengths that bordered on the superhuman. How much better their countries are and ho problem free they are. Its a pity most of our people still think in such terms, sure Africa has its own problems but out there problems exist too. Our droughts and famines are as a result of the industrialized nations polluting the atmosphere. They speak of unclean elections in our nations but just as an example Bush Jr’s accent to his second term in office wasnt that straight forward either. It is they that brought about divide an conquer as a means of grabbing huge tracts of colony for themselves and today it is their grandchildren that cry out the loudest from their rooftops about our tribalism and such.
The problem with the African mind is that it is in slavery, but as more and more of us break through these chains of bondage we shall see the rise of the African to his rightful position. Mental slavery is our undoing its a shame that it seems to affect the people that matter the most.
Hey Jasiri. You are right about disclosure of information that endangers national security,; blogs such as these are really double-edged swords that swing both ways. They inform and dis-inform with equal zeal and measure. Depending on the purpose , posts may appear creatively imaginative just as Jasiri puts it, a dream theater for any Intelligence Officer worth of anything. And these guys are having a field day here, make no mistake about it – plant a seed of half-truth, water it occasionally and see it germinate and grow! It is all in a day’s job and fair and just in the Art of War. This Thread of thought on Galang’s take-out is not creative imagination when you take in the entire broad geopolitical realities of this region – try to work backwards to the point of his take out, and assuming his is still alive, extrapolate the realities that would pertain today in this region, from purely military stand-point. Already we are witnessing an interesting development forced by the Nile Waters discussion, that focuses our attentions firstly on a point in time near to 30years from today, and secondly on a region greater than contained in individual national boundaries. Discussions are also going on about our (Africans) breaking the crucible of social-economic slavery of the past 600 years, of an emancipation riding on control of our National Mineral Wealth, of the inevitable shifting of international focus from present day Middle-East to East and Central Africa, the list is endless. Strategically, Galang continued existence would not be at all inconsequential , and his demise must have wide and deep ramifications to this whole picture beyond the mere fact of his passing. Ergo – it would be entirely and extremely simplistic to accept the conjured vision of Galang accidental death in a Presidential Transport of a bandit kings as paranoid of his personal safety as M7.
ON THE issue of the nile treaty east africans stand to gain the most from this unfairly crafted colonial treaty that was crafted by the then colonial powers to benefit one group of peope while disregarding the “LOCALS”.one wonders that Kenya HAS THE LARGEST volume of water going into lake victoria owing to the fact that they have the most number of rivers that drain into the lake and yet they cannot until recently in the case of sondu miriu hydro project could not efectively use the waters from these rivers for any large scale projects
THE prevous regimes then concentrated 80% of kenyas power projects on one river system in kenya which makes them prone to natural hazards easily
Garang would never had died if THe moi regime was in power… since MOI understood the strategic links that garang presented and hence he used tp provide garang
SORRY my message was cut off…. but let me continue here …garang WAS PROVIDED WITH VIP security and whenever required transport as well by the moi regime….
On the fatefull day the new KIBAKI regime DID NOT HAVE THE INSIDE STORY how garang operated at all and infact attempts to conect with state house failed..the likes of MATERE keriri were busy shielding kibaki from things.
garang OPTED TO FLY TO KAMPALA FROM WILSON AIRPORT on SMALL CHARTER plane with no security at all.
HE was a siitting duck when left with no proper arrangements for his onward movements from kampala
HEwas offered transport to sudan on a recently refurbished transport chopper which M7 himself had never used at all.The rest is now history
An interesting theory was once put out that KLA promised Khartoum help in DEALING with Garang if Khartoum dealt with Kony who at that time were gravitating towards S.Sudan/N Ug border. KLA kept his promise white Khartoum failed to live up to its word. Fast forward a couple of years later Bashir is about to attend a heads of state meeting in UG with an ICC warrant on his head. He had traveled before within the African continent but the countries he visited were reluctant to handover a sitting African head of state. KLA however could not offer such guarantees because of the previous botched up deal. Doesn’t sound too far fetched to me.
ONE secret that i have never managed to uncover is why it said that kenyan special forces were the first on the scene and they are the ones that recovered the Garangs remains.
NO one seems willinng to say exactly what was found and the number of bodies recovered did not tally with the number that initially boaded the craft.can we please be enlightened on this?
Indeed the confusion in the Narc Government at its early stages were only so in the Politico arms of it, since transitions are never possible on foundations that cannot withstand transition. A situation where confusion reigns in all arms of Government, particularly when the Security-Intelligence arms join the confused, generally results in anarchy, lethargy in Government, chaos, etc. In Kenya, as indeed with other systems of government with similar presidential foundations, these critical Kingpins remain solid months into the political transitions, and only are shaken from the resultant interference wrought be incoming administrations making changes in these kingpins to establish their oversight authority over them. This is what underwrites the peaceful transitions anyway. It isn’t correct to contend that the Security-Intelligence component of Government suffered from the same confusion as the Politico arm during this period; every on-going operations contain built-in continuity gears that obviate such. All planning continued well into the Transition, only stopped by the contrary instructions of the Incoming Administration – we basically carried on with all approved tasking and deployments, regardless of the changes /confusion then taking place in the Political arena, that is our function. Garang’s private plane jaunt to KLA and wasn’t forced upon him by the Narc administration, indeed it was because of his lacking direct contact with it, having pegged his hopes on the “project” his benefactor had chosen, and the acceptably suspicious paranoia that is generally resultant from such lacking in any VIP Protection considerations, which eventually determined his unorthodox travel that day to KLA. But as is usual, he was shadowed way past the Border, and tracked by various assets and means during his entire visit in UG. But also because the dramatic shift in Garang’s intentions, of the GoSS aligning itself to KLA after the CPA, had become known in Intelligence Circles, and the appropriate advise given to the out-going Politicos altogether ignored – actually with some degree of disbelief. The Garang KLA visit extended to Mbarara, utilising the same Helio which had only just been delivered to KLA after a complete refit and rebuild and was part of M7 air-transport pool. It was not as is frequently implied an defective helio that went down – we all know how particular he is with this element of his personal safety. As the details are still Classified, whatever tidbits we discuss here will remain little better than conjecture at the present.
Still Classified, Pat. But a while back on this blog and subject in I stated rather ungurdedly that first primary source of intelligence that Garang was down was picked up by US Military Spy Satellite of an Kenyan Special Ops Sat-com blip within seconds of the Helio hitting the ground. Those Uniforms that know this area, or can get satellite photographs or military maps of this area will tell you how incredibly difficult the terrain on both sides of the border where the Helio came down is. Just how is it that a some of our Delta chaps happened to be just seating along the flight-path of a supposedly secretive early dusk high-speed, high-attitude (for a chopper, that is) from a destination deep inside UG whose travel was under Military Cover and hence also unknown to Civilian Air traffic controls? A chap here dismissed this as creative imaginations. Any takers?
THE infor i have on this is limited as at the time the incident happened, i was no longer on the” east african information loop” becoz i was on the process of relocating to the UK.MY head of security at that time who visited the scene later with special investigators from UN/ICRC and the manufacturers of the HIND CHOPPER was abruply deployed to SLI LANKA soon afterwards so we never got to chat.
Pat. I was in the Sweep Teams that sanitized the kill-site before the arrival of the “investigators”. The legend we created was the legend your chaps read, period! The Hind-24 makers absolved their equipment from failure-blame, Pilots error ruled out on the basis of training, experience, his personal histories and character, weather ruled out as a contributor – the flashes of thunder on the hills before the border merely threatening of a coming storm, electro-static attested to be an inconsequential influence to Helio ability, no known hostiles either LRA or Northern-funded Southern Sudan opponents of SPLA in the vicinity, political shenanigans from North Sudan unlikely as the alternative leadership of SPLA overtly unacceptable of the rapprochement between Galang and Bashir. There were also no air-borne threat counters in the vicinity. Hell, what else was left?
ok ok..man the level of need to know here is too deep for me to penetrate…since am only fishing for infor…but the absolute man from my side who was incidentally my boss never wanted to talk on this for along time…infact we only got involved because it was deemed that at some stage in the future the perpetrators of that “crime?” if known may at some stage face an international court .BUT the socia?geopolotical axis is changing too fast now.WE shall see how this runs out..THE NILE TREATY saga rumbles on and on..
ON oher matters i note that the top brass in kenya have deployed four F5 tigers to help the kenya navy for maritime patrol duties along kenyan coasts area of maritme jurisdiction..I WAS just wondring how suited are these jets for matime patrol and why the kenya navy cannot acquire craft like the SEAKING helicopter which can be configured to do multiple duties and extended long patrosl.far reaching than the jets
Deploying the tiger againt pirate skifis does not make sense…may be am wrong.
Let’s assume for a while we are writing a history paper on Galang, and start by defining him. Who is this man Galang, really? Where did he emerge from, or better still who picked him and from where? Southern Sudan was dirty poor from the start, so who funded his decades-old murderous campaign against his country -both his Military Campaigns and his international propaganda onslaught against his Unified Country? Was the deliberate international demonization of the Arab north borne by any facts of discrimination of the Animist South? What possibly attracted this decades-old funding by these shady financiers and what were the promises given for re-coup (return on their investment) at some future time? What deals did Galang make with these financiers with the rest of his political baggage? I opine that Galang by changing tract and going rogue at the conclusion of his CPA, reneged and backtracked on these deals, seeking to cut an independent and uncluttered path into the CPA fulfillment. Years of speculative strategisation were based on a specific outcome of the CPA, including our own, and a Galang that operated outside this predictable mould was a dangerous Galang to all players including those that did not see eye to eye. Your riposte?
right now the wider picture on this will depend on the upcoming alreaady obvious self determining referendum for GOSS.we have people operating deep on the ground across from dafur to rumbek via juba and the infor is that they the south will vote for ceeding from the north.BUT the north is willing to lauch full scale war again to frustrate any gains since there is no clear demacartion between the two sides.MY own brother is operating as an interpreter for a french NGO AT JUBA tells me that ..the mood onthe ground is very fluid and the locals are very happy with the way kenyans are helping their army training.THEY look at kenyans as big brother..
also what role did uncle sam play in this especially after dubya become prezi of US OF A?we saw the likes of savimbi suddenly disapear from the map and CPA in sudan suddenly hamnered out and then less than 18 months later garang becomes history.
Pat, you still don’t get it, man!! Uncle Sam bred, raised, educated, trained, corrupted, and compromised this fella Galang. Galang is a scion of the USA economic interests. Uncle Sam was motiviated expressly for the mineral wealth on which GoSS sits on, but also primarily to gain a vital foothold on a wider region awash with alternative hydrocarbons to mention just one of the huge mineral content that comprises a region straddling the entire Centre of Africa from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. Uncle Sam couldn’t have taken Galang out, not having groomed a more dependable predictable alternative, and having the most to lose by the demise of Galang. Galang was taken out by chaps in the region that ran a counter-ops to this grand plan by Uncle Sam!! This sting by Uncle Sam was turned at the Kill-site. Galang stopped playing ball to suit us, and started playing ball as scripted by Uncle Sam as the CPA took root. Man Look closer home, and spot the smokin’ gun, Man.
C’mon man, discount all that talk of Kenya training the GoSS Army. We are doing some infantry training, but it is not substantive enough for them to fight a war against the north. And most of it is under the radar stuff, though lots of chaps who have recently been de-mobbed have taken up auxiliary positions in this so-called Army. Essentially, our primary and only responsibility is to turn this mainly lawless indiscipline ill-trained ill-lead loosely integrated guerilla force into armed formation with basic troupe discipline. As for the rumors peddled of the North waging to stop the South from declaring independence, that too is a mirage, a horrible myth, a non-starter concept – make no mistake about it that the CPA is underwritten by International Law, and is underpinned by this same law. The North will not renege from it even if the war-mongers in the north make noises that give credence to such illusions. Don’t read too much from what civilians are bandying about in the market places
BASHIR has already rubished international law by not accepting the indictament by the hague..he may want to go down fighting…he has nothing to loose and only to make himself hero for the arabs
These indictments a ludicrous mockery of morality, have are become just one of the tools through which Caucasians have used over the years to entrench their dominance and control on the international family. They are selective, and largely immoral, and have never served the wider human family beyond the Western Expediencies of the moment. When they prosecuted Milosevic, was it to be believed that he fighting a genocide with himself? Who encouraged him, backed him, gave him the economic, political and military means to wage genocide is Bosnia? You cannot be so gullible as to swallow this tired garbage churned out by the West, mate. Study the Sudan/Darfur conflict with a wider geopolitical understanding and you will see how western/Caucasian interests alone drive the genocide and the repercussions of it such as the indictment against Bashir. Certainly Bashir should answer to possible charges for the heinous Crimes done in Darfur. But cannot you collate the start of the Darfur problems with the huge Oil for which Chad nearly destroyed itself over a civil war and only just resolved it two years ago? Don’t you know the Darfur shares these same huge oil deposits with Chad? As well as the Platinum and Uranium fields in both Countries? Open your eyes, brother Patrick! Unti
as i had induicated earlier my sources of information on this virtually dried up when i left nbo five years ago. SO am left with nothing but counter speculative sources ..but does what happened to Garang have any bearing why SALVA kir is playing ball with kenyans?The reason this is persistantly coming up is becaouse their is a school of thought amongst the western think tanks that the status quo is not definate and they are unsure of how to proceed ..there is too much at stake once you have goss,kenya,uganda,tanzania,somali ethiopia and rwanda,burundi, congo in the mix .
and by the way where are the rest of the blogers on this site? lets not make this a two man exchange..am particularly curoius about what the likes of CHINOOK have to SAY.
One last lick at this, Pat, before I deploy out. KIR is an extremely astute and seasoned chap, was in Intelligence for the SLPA, if you can call it so, for a long long time. He knows well the false turn Galang made that led his demise in those Hills just past the UG/Sudan Border. He has struggled since taking over not only to appear a credible team-player (EAC team, that is) but also has deliberately and ruthlessly moved the chess-pieces of GoSS to fortify this position. Generally, to counter the Arab North into the next fifty years, the greater EAC needs a fortified bulwark from the CAR/Chad, into GoSS and Ethiopia, and encompassing the very strategically placed Somalia. There lies our Economic/Political/Military Line, at least in the classes in which I have seen it simulated. I have also not seen any credible intel that would validate this claim that the South will secede come the referendum. What I see is GoSS strengthening its hold on its people through the Referendum (fashioning itself into a state from the disparate numbers of tribes presently in GoSS), and using this strength and unity to strike for greater political/economic/military autonomy within the Unitary State of Sudan. Despite all things said, the south is still philosophically speaking Sudan, and I am certain “D” Jasiri, Delta4, IZZO, and others chaps who have deployed enough times in the south will attest to this too. See you all in 10days or so.
Let me put this out clearly that to a certainty degree of 99.99% that museveni and most especially the Ugandan government had no hand in the death of Garang. Garang was a close friend of museveni and like I have stated before he (his son and other s.sudan officials) are very frequent in UG. He would always have a safe heaven in the presidential lodges and had the PGB protecting him before he became V.P of sudan. He always had late night meetings with museveni (and some countries Ambassadors and why these meetings always happened late in the night god knows) His level of trust of UG is evident in the fact that on this last trip he didn’t inform his government of his trip and didn’t use his own VIP transport well knowing that he will be taken care of in UG.
Highest suspision (and most clearly the people who would benefit from his death at that particular time) is on some elements within the SPLM. Nobody would be looking at them because they all appeared to be loyal to Garang though there were some reports of people who wanted to advance themselves as leaders within the SPLM.
Bashir’s government Could not have pulled this of especially knowing that they would be the first suspects and this was supposed to be done in UG well knowing that there does not exist any kind of cooperation between these two governments (unlike someone’s idea that there could have been some kind of deal). Museveni will never trust Bashir so does Bashir.
This complication is part of the reason Museveni went to Yei for the funeral without informing any of the Sudanese Authorities. The Khartoum Government wrote to display their unhappiness about the incident also complaining about Museveni’s escort saying they had battle wagons and artillery accompanying him (they forget that the UPDF was already in s.sudan for operation Iron fist so they may have offered extra security but I doubt it was as high as Khartoum claims) Museveni could not have pulled of a Ghadafi kind of stunt.
If there is any UG involvement (the 0.01 %) it could have been done on individual basis( for people seeking monetary gains) on behalf of those within the SPLM who wanted to take over from Garang or some indiduals within kartoum Government who could not stand sharing power with Garang. Remember again there were people within SPLM who didn’t want Kiir to take over claiming that he was another museveni protégé
I have repeatedly stated this time and again that M7 had absolutely nothing to do with Galang’s death. On this one score, I complete agree with Tororo. The complex nature of this take-out involved several covert fire-teams on the ground along the secret flight path that was tracked on a real-time basis, fixed and rotary winged planes on a CAP deployment over Lake Turkana and thereabouts, but also Intelligence Assets from more than one organization who created a convoluted legend that pointed suspicious fingers at a myriad of players, all of them with plausible gains to be made from the death of Galang. It is atypical of most such black-drapes plots of this magnitude, creating conflicting scenarios, and raising more questions at each turn. From nearly every critiques and assessments of this operations, the execution of it is recognized by even our detractors as an absolutely a text-book case that will probably not be bested in Military schools in Kenya – in military / intelligence parlance, that is. Bottom line is that Galang at some stage before the full realization of the CPA become a clear and present danger to the long-term interests of a “certain country” in East Africa, and therefore became a legitimate no-questions-asked Military target. M7 suspicious distrust of Kenya mainly draws stems from this one incident and informs the tepid build-up we have witnessed since. Finally,see you soon
sometimes it’s just better for people if some things are not known to them. Pat be carefull in your indulgence such ghost stories could make you have nightmares. remember this blog is frequented by both angels and demons.
The Garang situation is beyond my need to know sphere this stuff is highly classified and even asking about it gets you some weird looks. Ill need time to familiarize myself on the basis of what has already been stated here.
The issue of F 5 deployment brought on by Patrick is talking about the Kenyan F5 fleet has been fitted with EL2032 radar suit. On top of advanced range and tracking abilities it also has improved Air – Air and Air – Sea targeting abilities. So their deployment in this sector is not beyond their scope of operations.
i think a buffalo has also been retroffited to MPA status to help the tigers, i am not so sure though.
Secession will be started by the referendum but it will take decades to complete. Changing the mindset of the S Sudanese people from, that of semi autonomy to full governance is easier said than done. Certain things will remain at least on paper but significantly so Khartoum controlled for a couple of years. Remember an arms embargo is still in place so how will this new nation be expected to defend itself, it is in the right of every nation to establish a legitimate armed forces, S. Sudans International network can only be seen on the mainstream within this region only, outside the continent most of the deals touching on it are done within dark, bug proof offices in a hush hush manner. So even if the referendum goes as planned in 2011 it will take years for S. Sudan to fully establish themselves as an autonomous nation.
On the Garang issue it is obvious someone has been doing extensive disinformation work around, the contrasting positions held on the issue by two senior members of this blog whose knowledge we never doubt is a testament to this. I am also unable to find out anything beyond that which was officially fed to the public. But this in itself leaves us with a narrow list of suspects in the saga, that the crash wasnt an accident is plain and clear to see. So now we have to think in terms of who has the capacity to run such an effective disinfo campaign, who is to gain from it and what were Garangs known intentions prior to his demise. It is indeed weird the heroic eulogy that was given to Garang after his death here in Kenya especially, the media managed to turn the rebel lord into a charismatic truth and fairness crusader, but what did they have to gain from this, they are after all running businesses and giving Dr. Garang 15 minutes of unpaid airtime for a full week doesnt make financial sense. Some deep pockets with equally deep minds were at work. All i know is that by deeds on the ground Uncle Sam is certainly the guy that lost the most eliminating him really narrows the suspect to one.
TO ALL VALUED BLOGERS..
FOR the purpose of contuinity and ease of identification i have changed my user name from patrick (uk) to spiderman
….I THINK the issue of garang be left now since there are too many percived theories which are themselves open to all manner of interpratations..SO I URGE MY brothers to look more into this NILE TREATY PROBLEMS and suggest ways to solve the impasse with benefits to all.
Hitches in departure plans – still here another coupla days. Kinda ominous, your new nom de guerre, Pat. The Nile Treaty is still a political issue, just smoke at present, and I cannot see that the Uniforms can at this stage be of use in blogging about it – there has been no overt Military Expressions, nor do I smell covert developments from this new reality as yet. A political debate on this would be boring to us Uniforms without a Military Angle to it. There is a whole world out there that is yet to see light, and a lot of this stuff is not classified anyway. I say, we file away the Nile Treaty debate until such a time as some real movement from it. Now, the Galang issue is something else, and there are plenty of such Black-Ops the Uniforms could throw light on, just the generalities and not too much specifics on yet to be de-classified stuff. What, for instance, is the military-intelligence angle to the Migingo Island political debate? What of the classic complex coup that brought down the Plane carrying the two Presidents of Rwanda and Burundi in 1994 despite the secrecy of its flight plan, their hurried departure from Arusha, and inside a fortified heavily militarized Government Perimeter so created to respond to just such threats? Kagame’s ingenious stroke that resulted in the son of a minister in his government becoming President of Congo? What threat or action are the constant threatening noises from Al-Shabaab responding too? Kenya’s interests in the Oromo Debate and how deep are we involved? The Illemi Triangle – how far to go to retain it by force of arms, and why? Wagalla twenty years ago –command failure or a structural failure? Joseph Kony now two decades into his murderous rebellion?
All fascinating issues, we are spoiled for choice, id start close home and by far the most dynamic. The Illemi Triangle. Another classical error by the colonialists, typical of them really, at the time they did not see any economic importance to that piece of parched up territory so they defined its ownership ambiguously and left us with problems.
Historically Sudan and Kenya have staked the strongest claims to the territory, Ethiopia also has interests but they are more quiet in voicing them. With the emergence of the SPLM/A suddenly the triangle became a strategically placed territory, it also has great potential economically as it is believed to hold vast resources of oil and natural gas.
Normally in such disputes colonial maps would be consulted to get a clear picture. In this case however there exists 4 different maps of this kind made at different stages in history all of them recognized and accepted as valid. Sudan has never had administrative units in this area since independence, Kenya has progressively been representing it as an administrative territory hence the dotted line on earlier maps and more recently as a full part of the country. No formal objections have been made either by Khartoum or Rumbek. As a matter of fact it is claimed that this territory was ceded to Kenya by the SPLM/A in return for certain wartime favors. This begs of the question does a rebel movement as SPLA was at that time hold the rights to cede captured territory to foreign nations?
If not why did Khartoum not object to this or why now that there is a S. Sudan govt why hasnt the leadership commented on this issue. As a matter of fact the CPA agreement that defines S. Sudanese territory though ambiguously leaves out the Illemi Triangle.
THE elemi triangle to me is a great mystery.. but i wa happy and more than relieved when former president MOI made a visit there in the 1980s and planted a symbolic tree at the furthest point.HE MADE A SPEECH THERE AFTER STATING that kenyas terrotorial intergritty must never be taken for granted. IT seemed THAT HE WAS CHALLENGING any one with claims to this place to state so.I HAVE YET TO SEE anyone lay a counter claim and i remember kenyan soldiers based at KACHELIBA during the construction of the turkwel gorge hydro project used to regularly patrol this area all the time… so for all intends and purposes this ELLEMI triange is kenyan territotory
On the ground people indigenous to S. Sudan would give up an arm and a leg to disagree with spiderman. but as i said earlier it is upto the leadership to state their position as a young nation S. Sudan would not be keen to antagonize the big brother to the south who made their war effort possible through provision of supply routes and safe haven to both refugees and SPLA leadership, but its a weird world we live in what if KIr is somehow compromised, or a new guy makes it to a position of power in S. Sudan. Someone who is not keen to follow through on the gentleman’s agreement between former president Moi and the SPLM/A leadership regarding this territory, though highly unlikely this is a very possibel scenarion in years to come.
The Ilemi Triangle is in fact a Mandatory Study in our Military Science Studies at the Academy because, to our Military Philosophy, it epitomes our categorical statement of the sanctity of our Nationhood. Consequently, a huge amount of research has gone into this very question from all manner of scholars, a good number of them hired by the Military, to establish the legitimacy of our claim. It is precisely because our statement of sovereignty over the Ilemi was determined as ACTIONABLE BY FORCE OF ARMS, that it was so critical to establish our ownership that would stand strict and deliberate International scrutiny, and in so doing, therefore, VALIDATE OUR USE OF DEADLY FORCE TO PROSECUTE OUR SOVEREIGNTY OVER THE ILEMI. I have pored through stacks of legal documents going back a century, seals of Sovereignty, Maps both civil and military, sequential international Agreements, countless legally commissioned Surveys duly annotated by several legal parties, memoranda of meetings and exchanges and local agreements between civil administration tribunals across the border, reviews carried out after several appeals and their results. Hell, these documents fill an entire 20 by 2O air-conditioned library at Westwood!! Our case is meticulously put together, and so air-tight that I will feel no compunction taking a life in execution of my Commission in the case of Ilemi. There has therefore never been any shred of doubts, that is legally grounded, of the ownership of Ilemi, ever, and all such talk has served a diversionary objective of creating the impression of impending crisis between Kenya and Sudan where none in fact exists. Straight from the hip, there is no “gentlemen agreement” between anybody in exchange for rear-basis for the SLPM/A, has never been. North Sudan has never claimed the Ilemi in any official manner that I know of, nor are they biding their time to either settle the distraction with the South or to buttress their Military, to prosecute any claims on the Ilemi. But in the mix of the realities facing the Sudan during the civil war where we actively encouraged Galang and his cohorts, the Ilemi Triangle and the consistent insecurity on the flanks of Ilemi in the Turkana area by nomadic tribesmen armed and logistically organized by North Sudan, became a pressure point that the North Sudan used to counter Kenya’s SLPM/A connection. Furthermore, we re-took the Ilemi by Military Force in the Eighties, in the largest coordinated Military offensive since the Shifta Wars of the Sixties, specifically to make our clear intentions to hold the Ilemi by Force of Arms if necessary.
IN view of the statement by officer Ole Nkarei .aim not so sure that the current political leadership in power can prosecute to the defence of kenyas teritory with the zeal and conviction that the MOI and Kenyatta regimes displayed whenever there was any threat or claim to kenyas sovereign land..this is due to the recent events ..and the likes of allshabab are always flexing thier muscles by entering kenya unchalenged…and of course there is MIGINGO…WHICH IS STILL UNRESOLVED …I have myself gone over the maps since 1900 and evne before kenya become a british protectorate and still se no reason why the kenyan govrnment failed its people in migingo…even parliament voted to authorise use os force to take this small island back if needed.THE BRITISH were very keen to carefully map any teritory they held between 1900 and1926 and all rthe maps indicate that migingo IS kenyan teritoryby allmeans.
Been out on an official duty.
glad to see the blog keep on evolving keep up comrades.
To pick up from what the spiderman has left,i too believe the current administration lacks the passion to claim and defend every inch of our territory otherwise the issue of migingo would be resolved by now.
It is my duty to defend every inch of this land and size is is not an issue as some have suggested.The dismissal that migingo is a piece of worthiless rock adds to the insult given the livelihoods supported by this island.Previous administrations were robust when our territorial integrity was challenged.
A prominent American eneral once said, “above everyone else,a soldier always prays for piece.” I pray for peace but my view is that the solemn duty to defend Kenyan territory should never be put at the back banner by any leader or government.
We live for Kenya and if need be die for her.
YEAH man..it beats me that we are prepared to send men to defend a more or less empty space which is rumered to contain minirals of which there is no substancial survey to show at IILEMI TRIANGLE..
further more this triangle even though it is efectivelly kenyan has had severall diffrent maps and border alterations between 1900 to 1959 to suit the powers that be ..the blue, the green and the red line demarcations and etc
but migingo is though less than a square mile in size has kenyans living there and engaging in very robust commercial activities. has been all the time uncontested untill recently.ALL kenyans born after 1963 know that this is their land.
I HAVE SEEN thousands of bloggs on this subject and 98% SUPPORT the idea of defending kenyas teritorial intergritty by all means.
KENYATTA mobilsed the security forces when the shifta menace which was linked to somalias dream of taking north eastern kenya
AMIN made a claim that uganda owned all the land up to NAIVASHA..what did kenyatta do?fisrt he said kenya will not give EVEN AN INCH of its territory to uganda ..he then mobilsed the mases who staged anti amin demonstrations all over kenya and also moved troops to kenya uganda border.at BUSIA….THE SAME WEEK ugandan goods through kenya stated undergoing greater scrutiny and punitive transit regimes imposed.
AMIN had to personaly fly to NAKURU and make piece with kenyatta.
WE know what heppennd when the NRA boys in gumboots tried to play some games in1986/87…
The response was robust…and now by opting to do nothing in the name of diplomacy ,kenyan leadership has set a very bad precedent over Migingo where by we are seen to be negotiating from a of weak ness in the eyes of the public…aim not a war monger but the way THEcurrent leadersip handled this issue was pathetic so far…and this was compounded by the response by the kenyan CGS who should have been smart enough to give a better answer to the news media than the responce he gave on the issue which implied that he did not know who owed migingo..
What really got to me was the way M7 was acting. He knew nobody was going to call his bluff on this Migingo issue, he yapped his mouth, insulted members of a certain community in the country (this might be a common trait shared by our neighbors to the west) and every time kenya spoke of diplomacy he reciprocated by deploying more armed personnel on the island. It is true that he would not have dared try this during Moi’s time, i even doubt he would have had the audacity to do it prior to 2007. I have always stated on this blog that Kenya is the only entity with the ability to destroy Kenya. M7 either sensed a house divided and struck at the opportune moment or somebody let him have the island. These are the only logical explanations to me we cannot be scared of military action against Uganda, ask anyone from the DOD who has served in any capacity covert, military exercise or military diplomacy in KLA and he/she will tell you military action vs UG swift and decisive. Surely the C in C knows this he is briefed on such matters on a weekly or on demand basis, even M7 knows this. His biggest fear is losing power imagine if LRA or the still infantile opposition in UG gives him nightmares what kind of terrors strike him when he thinks about going toe to toe against the full force and wrath of the DOD. To him it is a risk not worth taking not even for 5 migingo’s. This issue reeks of political boardroom horse trading, something the suits knew the military would not touch without being asked to wash their hands.
kenya has been faced with many challenges along its borders,ethioia to the north,somalia to the east and uganda to the west.
i fail to under if its our generals who does not brief the C in C the events which unfolds,we have lost solders along the borders with quick denial from DOD that nothing of that sort happened.
more often that not we’ve left the borders to the GSU and the APS to man.
its high time that we show repect to this land buy protecting to every inch of it
Men, I would never once talk down on you guys, ever. Finest chaps, even from your posts it is clear the quality we have in Uniforms. And I am loathe to seem to respond on behalf of the Brass because I really have no brief to do so. Bogita and his office are the spokespersons, no matter what we should think is the quality of their communiqués. But let’s look at the “ larger picture” on these matters, STRATEGIC, and see how action on one facet integrates into the general mosaic – coz that essentially is what determines whether “D” HELO-parachutes into Kitgum on a black-drapes ops without questioning the morality of his extreme prejudice action or whether the marks of his mission have families, etc.. Now with humbleness allow me to state once again that Military Activity is a projection of Foreign Policy, and that is the general confines of International Law. It is not an interpretation of Domestic Policies, nor is Foreign Policy derived from the Military Posturing of a normal country – IRAQ during Saddam’s last 10 years in power perfected Hitler’s reverse philosophy that developed after the fall of Paris in 1941 of creating his Foreign Policy from his Military Intentions. Consequently, and unless the Strategic Mosaic demands it, Kenya’s Armed Forces only get used when it furthers the Policy and activities of Diplomacy, either by energizing it, or by enforcing it. PERIOD!! The reverse discussed above is only possible in Nations without strong Civilian Oversight of the Military, such as our Western Neighbor, and where indeed the State and the Head of it are essentially one and the same thing. So that Local activity on a large scale will probably not been witnessed in response to diversionary flares-ups along a border or in Migingo, simply because although such localized actions might be gratifying to a lot of civilians, it only just distorts the general Mosaic. Remember too that our Military Doctrine is offensive-to-depth Defense, which then explains the rapid expansion of our Special Warfare groups in recent times, and their unprecendent integration into our Civilian External Intelligence and of some Friendlies. Categorically then, and I recall also “Risasi” did mention this a while ago, – our response to every incursion is swift, is immediate, to substantial depth, extremely devastating on the command structures responsible. These incursions are really just ill-advised feeble responses to our “under wraps” handiwork on their command structures in their own countries – to be truthful. The kill-rate of the Delta sometimes boggles the mind, and keeps these chaps extremely gainfully engaged outside their training regimen and the usual R & Rs. I don’t mean to lecture, men, just to put some perspective to the debate. Anyone else with a different perspective please?
I want someone to explore the posture that can be projected by our millitary either defensive or offensive in nature inorder to prevent some occurences from happening in the first place.There has been too many incidents along our borders that require us to project ourselves differently.Even the greatest militaries projected their power in certain ways and i wonder how we project ourselves.
What i have in mind are things like a permanent robust naval unit with speed boats in lake victoria,more border surveilance backed by heavily equipped positions behind “enermy lines.” Other countries have chased their enermies beyold borders and i concur we should smoke those who attack our troops from whatever hiding place they go beyold our borders.
Am satisfied with the decission to use f5s to patrol the coast lineand such efforts should be utilized along the full border just to mention a few.
I dont know whats your take on this guys.
GUYS WILL and have come up with all scenarios about our defence capabilities..which is great…and all the simulations and military projections done by guys in the know have been all negated by this one act by m7.This is in the eyes of many i dare to say a treasonable act by our leaders who swore to defend our constitution .
The ordinary man was so frustrated that they aprooted a section of the railway line to uganda just to send a message that all is not right.mzee KENYATTA must be turning in his grave for this land he treasured and was always ready to defend.
The issue of border raids and occupations into our country by our neighbor seems irritating to many who don,t have a glimpse of our intelligent ops and affair. These event are actually punitive action as a result of covert ops that the have been exert to them i.e this are counter attacks of covert ops that have been performed on there soils. Crossing over kill civilians, occupy some of our land is the match they can do. But believe me, what we have done to them is more then what appear on the surface.
Spiderman, and one-man-army – please again read carefully through my post above – on May 25, 2010 at 12:25 pm. And take cognizance of Risasi’s later post. Then ,let me know what you wish me to clarify from it. Let’s talk shop, like soldiers! Your remarks though emotive for a man that swore to serve-and-defend , are slightly out of context. But this is understandable since the need-to-know has circulation parameters too, hence the essence of blogs such as these where we can drop some tidbits of information about questions seemingly without answers from which any credible Military Mind will draw credible conclusions by extrapolation and filing in the blanks. I think that is generally the purpose of this blog, men, otherwise we shall get distracted by expressions that are really quite off-centre of target, with the effect that your suppression fire kills your own men.
risasi
i don’t concur with your sentiments that wat ever our enemies does on our soil is as a result of covert ops on their soil,this not true
i have some classified information which am not ready to divulge in this forum .
for the general public,can you tell us an incident where we persue the enemies deep in their land,if not making empty runs along the border with HUGHEs, the so called mosquitos,MD500.?
i too have classified staff divulge and i divulge
Ain’t you being a little obvious, Chinook? Are you employed by Kianga like the rest of us? Well, you won’t compromise anyone that easily, I assure you. Risasi’s response definitely applies to all of us. Men, let’s keep to generalities.
to me the reason Uganda decided on their course of action on the migingo islands is a non issue. the fact that they did what they did is indeed nothing less than aggression in my books. our response to this is what is most important. covert black ops are designed to ensure maximum deniability if anything goes wrong. people on this blog who have been on some of these missions will tell you that most times the C in C is not even made aware of these actions before they take place. The fact that UG says we do pull off some of these acts are treated as suspicions and our official response is always that of denial we are after all brothers in the EAC we would never do such a thing to them right? The thing is despite our military superiority it is not in the best interest of this administration to go to war. With the economy in recovery and UG being a key trading partner not only in itself but also as a conduit to the lucrative markets of Rwanda, Burundi and DRC and the current president wanting to leave a legacy of being a mender of that broken economy migingo island and other cross border raids (which we all agree are really a slap on the wrist compared to what we do there silently) are not worth the billions. This war were it to come is easily winnable but not cheap. Again look at the timing of Ugandas deeds these maps that they suddenly woke up and scrutinized to realize the water belongs to them as they claim have been with them for ages. For God’s sake ask why they did not claim the island in 1995 when they were making a new constitution and with it resurveying their boundaries. We were still a divided nation at that time m7s comments targeting a single community was an attempt to isolate the migingo saga as a regional problem and not a national one so that other communities would not give a hoot about it. Even if they occupied the island as payback why the peculiar timing after all guys like me had infiltrated UG from as early as 2006 and i was not the first i can tell you that. A more interesting debate is to explore why we chose to respond as we did.
hey guys i have just come across some unconfirmed info that we will soon acquire 6 CN 295 tactical insertion/transport aircraft, source still unknown but my source is pretty credible.any takers?please confirm.boy am i itching to jump off that bird!!!
Well put “D” – tis a question of the effective response that does not confuse the Strategic picture. Does that answer your query, ChinooK? You reckon purchases such as of these CN 295 are made to adorn some mantleplace in some general’s house? Fill in the blanks, man!
THE CN295/235 is not a bad deal..but i thought we have enough transports planes..and therefore we should be busy going for something to counter the SU30MK…from next door…?
NO strategic interests anywhere in the world mean that a countrys teritorial intergritty can be violeted with impunity.THE current government has failed kenyans on this issue no matter what you guys and KIANGA SAY…
I Have GONE DEEP into all avilable information,bloggs and discussion forums on this from kenya,rwnda,tanzania and the KENYAN DIASPORA ..all conclude that Uganda was testing kenyas WILL and gumbled that the new leadership was weak They could not have done this when moi was in power period.
what kenyans need to hear is how this will be resolved. and if this kianga is told to recover this island how he would go about doing that…
Spiderman – please read the blog and the contributions without wearing political blinkers. The query of SU30MKK has been analysed here to death, nothing further to add! I dare say that responding to the bullying of a weak child with hummer fists to show your “resolve”and “courage” is itself infantile, to say the least, Spiderman. Stop drugging us all down into petty debates on localised inflammations as if the Country we swore to defend and die for can only be defined in such narrow terms. It is why there Military Studies in our schools, to take away from the Soldier a tunnel vision of the challenges we face and how to integrate our responses in a National Strategic Mosaic. You ever wonder why the American public has silently stood by while their soldiers slaughtered a Million Iraquis in 5 years of brutal murderous war, without any moral qualms being expressed even by their churches? And continue this genocide war in Afghanistan with the same blanket authority from their People? Give us a break, man, and lets move on to other topical issues!!
nothing YOU HAVE SAID HERE CHANGES THE STATUS QUO…and you have no business trying to force issues into a set of ideological supositions..the fact is ordinary kenyans you were given a commission to defend are at the mercy of kenyas enemies and are being harased daily..i will not change my stand on this NO MATTER WAHT you say.
“D’, the information on CN295 was mentioned in the order of battle sometime in 2008. In it was also the possibility of purchasing the JAS 39 Gripen or the F-16 Falcon for the air force. This information was hastily removed later and i cannot tell what happened thereafter.The information alleged that the CN 295s were meant to replace the aging buffaloes. If this is true,then either the F-16s or the JAS 39 Gripens will address the concerns of our brother SPIDERMAN. Some of you in this blog may already have this information anyway.What do you say?
D the CASA transporter was on the list of KAF that I posted on August 23, 2009 at 9:17 pm Said . the talks have been on/off. Personally I feel that the C-295 cannot fill the robust boots of the the de Havilland DHC-5. I feel the military version of the Y8F400 would do better. but again that’s not my call.
To SPIDERMAN and chinook with regards to the cross border raids surface issues.
WESTERN AREA
The Pokot and Turkana are fierce warriors. Cross raiding and rustling is a part of their life. They are trained and equipped by the gov’t under the police reservist act. What might escape your information is that most of the times that UPDF forces from Moroto army barracks in Karamoja areas, cross over to attack them; is more often then not our tribes had previously attack the iteso and the karamojong tribes of Uganda. Last year they single handily disarmed a Company of UPDF men. Without the UPDF intervening for its citzens, the raids would be a one way traffic for sure. UPDF does perform brutal act on them but that is their way of life. “Live by the sword, die by the sword” nothing more. They can defend themselves quiet well with some assistance from the GSU. They is no substance for military actions in such an event.
NORTH/EASTERN
The Oromo (OLF) account for most actions in this area. Their fighting for an independent state called Oromia in Ethiopia. Do their DPM/combat uniforms look familiar too you guys? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1pqpd1a27k&feature=related
Their fights with the Ethiopian army sometimes spills over into Kenya.
Again no substance for military actions.
I WILL RESPOND IN DETAIL LATER…however how will you go about resolving migingo? i keep asking. whether you guys like it or not..is a sticking point
OK GUYS AM TAKING LEAVE untl week starting 11 june.AM HEADING TO THE scottish mountains for abit of mazoezi.hope to link up with this blog later.
Did anyone find further information on Kenya’s interest on Israeli drones? Further mention of the same is detailed in the UPI magazine issue dated 30th April 2010.
The drones are meant for border surveillance.
What is your take on the C-130 Risasi? i mean why can’t Kenya look at this too?
the kenya budget is about to be out soon,from the budget allocation to the milliatary we can make out bigger plans a head for the military expenditure like purchase of new military hardwares.
lets hope the talks about F-16,JAS39 and the rest are factored in.
I admire how israeli responds to external threats,kill or capture one of them then their response is full scale war,thats wat we need here.
our neighbours over looks us coz they know any infiltration buy their men will go without any action except the media cry and the usual response that we are a peaceful nation,this piss me off.
CORECT ….oh yes this thing of secresy is not helping us.THE WHOLE WORLD KNEW WHEN m7 rolled into migingo.we did nothing period.
THE US coast guard chose the military version of CN295 PRIMARILY DUE TO ITS LONGER loitering period and its communications platform is highly versatile and robust AND THE cost of running this craft is very low..so my view is that it amuch cheaper option than the more robuSt C130
Just cool it down Mr Spider. Its just a blog discussion. They is no need to get upset or so. The aircraft to be procured must have in theater a capability. The DHC5 beats it out with its ground clearance. The CN295 can’t perform STOL. The DHC5 has tough landing gears and can land very comfortable on unpaved areas. The two aircraft have more or less the same payload. That wouldn’t be a plus would it? That’s what I meant earlier in fact I feel the y-12 is doing a good job on in theaters missions you understand what I mean. We are looking for an in theater carrier, nothing flamboyant or attractive. An aircraft that can do the job that fits our environments and modes of operation.
My apologies for sounding off..i guess am just .. TIRED.i had just done 7 shifts 12 hours each monitering CCTV SOMEWHERE ..AND now have to prepare for a flight to the north and stay there until just before world cup..so my adrenalin is runnig high.MY APOLOGIES TO all and comrade TOM OLE NKERAI …
LINK UP LATER….OOPS by the way whats this am reading abou kenyan Vice Presidents plane mishap again?
am guessing the CN295 would be deployed as a home based transporter. ferrying troops and hardware from deep in our territory to jump off points and FOBs while the DHC5s owing to their robustness and STOL capability would be deployed from the FOBs themselves and captured territory where runways are a luxury,this is the kind of strategic astuteness that puts us a cut above the rest in the region. the lingering time of the CN295 can also if it were to be transformed into an AWACs aircraft, that is one step towards countering those pesky SU30s. with a troop capacity of over 70 it can deploy 6 full platoons of paras at one sortie compare that with the 40 troop capacity of the DHC5 and considering rapid mobilization is one thing no one in the region can touch us on i think its a big boost.
I GATHER that the CN 295 is perfect as robust comms platform and can be used as an awacs to help those F5 TIGERS AND also as aerial command and control post.
IT CAN STAY AIRBORNE FOR up 9hours continous loitering..that is enough to cover all east africa hands down…
SOMALI allshabab MILITIAS have again struck into kenya in north eastern ….and you guys think THAT WE should not be upset…. come on give us abreak…and deal with guys once and for all.
i think its time the navy too should have atleast 3 attack helis,with the CDU around,there is no need to involve the airforce,wat they(military planners ) can do is simply to equip the CDU with nice machine.
ma intrest is in improving our COIN capability and for us to be more offencive than defencive.
i support too if the boys cold have the israeli drones in our inventory and at least one sub marine for the navy.
Subs are may not be the best idea considering our threat matrix. Military diesel subs are outdated and getting one would not be economical in terms of maintenance.I doubt that we have the capacity to maintain a nuclear sub. Even if we can it would be total overkill. that expense would be better channeled towards giving the navy avionic capabilities in terms of maybe 2 attack choppers and 1 transport/personnel carrier chopper.brown water amphibious landing crafts should also be considered.
As the rest of the region focuses their military growth on offensive capabilities we should look more towards mobility and speed of deployment. Protracted war is not in our best interest a blitz kind of operation style followed by suppression of resistance and overwhelming strong point tactically and with precision has been our main focus in training. That is one of the chief reasons why we are keen to develop a ranger battalion and an explanation for our recent purchases. Its the best way to deal with the multi front threats we faced as opposed to human wave tactics.
what you guys are discussing is in hand
http://www.kenya.info/ally/peace/
Well you guys – “D’, Ole Nkarei and Risasi have been at pains to explain the role of the armed forces especially in regard to armed border incursions by several militia. However while being appreciative of the role being played by the uniforms,we nevertheless would like to see a more robust response that not only sends clear shock waves, but deters would be aggressors in future.The APs and the GSUs are doing a splendid job, but they need the support of the army in a manner that sends a clear message to all and sundry. We may be peace loving and diplomatic, but that is no reason for every Tom,Dick and Harry to start messing up with our sovereignty. We need to clobber these fools the way Israel does. That is not all, we need to give any aggressor a hot pursuit to his hiding place. Moi once gave this order and i don’t recall hearing of any more border incursions after that.
All said, i cannot really blame the army for what is going on. The blame is clearly on the leadership. The army cannot just respond without the green light.
EXACTLY…this is what we need to hear from people and not scenarios an simulations from our defence and infantry clases.we already know our capabilities and therefore we need to support the GSU/APS . every time the alshabab enter kenya and get away unchallenged this makes very bab news foder for the foreign press..this what they keep reporting all the time sending a negative signals that we are unable to defend ourselves.KIANGA and his men must tell the powers that be that we are setting a bad precedent.ALSHABAD have a video ON THIER JIHADIST website chanting that they will one day reach nairobi,.WE need to target and strike the leadership of this rag tag oufit and see how far they will survive.WE kenyans in the diaspora are very concerned and very upset by the way our country is being taken for granted,..JUST as we debate we have been violeted in the last 36 hours by the same group .HOW LONG WILL THIS GO ON?
There are some hotheads amongst you that would not be entrusted to lead soldiers to war, I tell. This bravado being express here, this gung-ho dare that only gratifies our pride for the short term, lacks strategic substance and makes absolutely no sense after the explosions have died down. We must think beyond gangsteristic hot-pursuit tit-for-tat tactics, guys. A good number of you chaps are not Uniforms, this is not a failing, while some are, and probably because of being out of the loop of things, they express frustration at the seeming lacking in aggressive/visible/loud-statements response by our Jeshi. Spiderman is one such analyst, a civilian desk-jockey who theorizes strategy based on un-sifted Intel on his desk( sorry Pat no offense meant/ intended – I know you served, man!). But let us say, for instance, that we halt our pin-point designated assassinations, controlled subversive disruptions of the hostiles comms systems and intelligence and terror Cells, our abductions of high-value command figures in these thugs groupings, our covert hard-intel gathering by men on the ground for weeks, our targeted disinformation that breaks them up into small management fractious squabbling groups, our development of effective pseudo-outfits to rivals these thugs (hell, we have been doing this in Somalia now for a decade!) with our Civilian Intelligence Chaps; Now let’s continue to say that instead, I now send in a half-Coy of the Deltas into Somalia in response to some feeble, ineffective, gangster-like silly raid by a couple of dozen mad-crazed ill-lead misfits chanting Islamic bla-bla-blas. So we Kill a few hundred of them , probably a thousand or so, and then we extract by Helios back home. The news blars out our iron-fist response, and we drink ourselves silly. Now, in the Kill-count ? – a hundred youthful al-Shaba’s fighters, a few hundred mothers, a similar number of bystander innocent men, and create a couple of thousand orphans with hate and revenge imprinted in their hearts. Essentially, what have we achieved beyond the immediate gratification of “putting it” to them – likened to a short visit to a brothel? Come on, guys!! Have you forgotten that the Israeli, despite their murderous revenge to-depth reactive tactics lasting 60 years are still the most insecure Nation on earth? How many generations in Israel have fought this demonic war? Do you envisage, Spiderman, that the end to this senselessly ludicrous conflict will be brought from an Israeli Markova Tanks or the Katyusha Rockets of Hezbollah? These sort of indiscriminate testosterone-type reactive tactics only create Victims on both sides, and hence perpetuate generational violence. Around Kenya over the last 40 years are antagonistic, nihilistic, genocidal adversaries fighting their senseless wars, with surprising to many little spill-overs into Kenya. In Somalia, the population is neither antagonistic of Kenya nor do they show visible antipathy towards our chaps whenever they very rarely get “blown” during their Covert Insertions . We are rearming in readiness for the Challenges to our National Security which will inevitably result when we begin taking out the hydrocarbons and other minerals, and the greedy Caucasians flood in with their confusing drama of brother against brother. It is not against al-shabaab , Tapoosa, Karamoja, Oromo, or even a bandit-king like M7 that we are spending Billions that we can ill-afford on hardware and training. Eeissh!!!
TAFADHALI WACHA STORY MINGI….afande,
.wakenya wamechoka na kuteswa na kuthulumiwa na majirani adui….
na kuomba wewe kwa sasa ebu fikiria kama ria …how will you feel..?…we are talking things as they happen. now….put yourself in their shoes ….WHAT IS THE ANSWER?. TAKE STEPS TO SAFEGAUARD our boaders. period…
Pat, sii stori, man, ebu wewe jaribu uwake hii mambo kwa balance, bwana. Kuna njia nyingi zaa kuuwa paka,na pia kuna njia ile poa. Tena hakuna border sealed-tight dunia yote, ebu tazama mexico na USA vile majeshi ya America yanaendelea kuchekwa na venye watu wana-dedi mob pande zote za hio border! Sisi tume njaribu vilivyo, kadili ya uwezo wetu na kweli njia tunatumia na zile tunaendelea kuzinduo are quite effective. Mazee, tupe rope kidogo, joo!
I agree with Lt.Col. Nkarei not because we sworn to the same allegiance but the types of operations performed are standard for the prevailing environments. The best way of dealing with such militia, especial when they are you next do neighbors, share same ethnicity with your citizens, is via converted means. We have the fire power but no this isn,t the right situation for it. You have to be very tactfully when dealing with such type of insurgents. Once we amass at the border it will be a direct declaration of war to them. And boys we will be running in circles for a very long time. It will cause unnecessary attrition to our equipments war funds not to mention skilled manpower. Militias have nothing to loss. no established economies or societies. All members in the blog know that USMC tried employing force tactics and failed flat on their face, in Somalia. we have seen such incidents in Iraq & Afghanistan. gentlemen would you like the armed forces of our nation to go down same lane? Insurgent’s warfare is very tricky and it should be handle in caution. you have to understand that si kila mahali unaenda na kifua. The best way of dealing with them is via covert ops. Our hands remain clean and the job gets done. Tusijituwe wazi that we are fighting these Militias or else they will bring the fight to our capital. Its just a 2000bob bus ticket from where they are to Nairobi. What is being performed by our Intel. Boys is precise and to the point. They are a lot of rendition ops going on in this country. if any of you has links to Kamiti he will knows that that is so.
Risasi, Ole Nkarei, we hear you. However numerous press reports on border incursions into our territory are poisoning our minds and driving us to extreme rage. What is more, the same reports might be encouraging more hooligans into believing that here lies a soft target. Emboldened they are bound to try again and what do we get? More press reports in the international media that the borders are very porous. Men we are seething in anger. I feel like blowing off a number of these bastards. Just yesterday they were at it again and i am almost exploding in frustration. You know what i mean?
Yes i know of the covert operations, but even these must send the clearest signal and put a stop to all these nonsense.
Men just look at how some guys in other blogs are describing us as soft and well fed and thus unable to stand a war. Frankly i am unable to stomach the insult.
There are two main reasons why the incursions are going on in our northern borders.
1. is as I mention vengeance from the militias for their fallen brothers. They suspect that we are doing some ops at them but they can’t prove it. so naturally they will kill some of our own. Policemen, innocent civilian’s things like that.
2. somebody some where knows we are enjoying the show and wants to drag this country in to that war. When Shababa first sprang out Ethiopia played the super power of the region. Sent in troops and started booming the militia. Short minded as he usually is he didn,t have a contingency plan. He thought he would scare them off with his hardware. Well be my guest buddy and let’s see how they will run the show. Attrition toll has now taken best of his equipments and they is no organization that will compensate him. It was an act of charity and kindness to resolve peace in somalia. Kazi ya kanisa haina malipo. Like India and Pakistan bitter reveals india is enjoying its peace when the Pakistan army is busy fighting the Taliban’s. its given them peace in Kasmir. We in Kenya are observing how our north neighbor is conducting his operations and are learning his ways of maneuvers. At time the so called militia action in the north is actually the northern neighbor in disguise trying to drag us in the war. i.e we should retaliate as the blog members suggest and join the war.
They are looking for a reason to save face.
We will not fall for that trick. Mbona Americans are not joining the front i.e send an amphibious ship and deal with them. They to are doing the ops convertedly and training other armies to fight the shabab. Sasa wataka sisi tuingie
to have a clue on the types of ops our country has performed a good example is on my postings on “the Kenya Armed Forces pictures” blog . on March 27, 2010 at 9:11 am and on March 27, 2010 at 9:20 am by Risasi
Somebody talked about Israel. Now tell me how successfully have they been in combat incursions with regards to militia/terrorist like activities ? Israel failed to wipe out the Hezbollah in the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah War. When I heard that the Israelis are calling in their reservist, that’s when I knew kime umana. They flatted almost the entire Lebanon and at the end of the war they achieved nothing. The abducted soldiers are still in the hands of the Hezbollah as I type. kweli ama urongo jamani? Guys let us open our eyes and learn form the mistakes of other.
For your kindly information Israel has changed its tactics to assasinations just like we are doing it. This is how they now play their cards. An Intel team gathers the hierarchy information of terrorist groups. Names, house location and so forth. They then priorities them in a blacklist from the most wanted downwards. Now when a terrorist strikes Tel Aviv whether the list member is related to that terror act or not he gets assainted. an F-16 is sent to bomb him plus his family. Do you get me? as long as he is up in the black list any terror act equates to his death. Its just the same assignation tactics but this time it comes in the form of a smart bomb directed to the household of the men they seek to kill.
These are our jobs we know how to conduct them. I know Torror is busy taking notes. I wish him his best.
this is wat i have been taking about,how safe are our borders?
ma question is,where were the intelligent team,both military and police,does it mean no one new about this impending attacks?
it sound reduculous for the gov. to send investigation team to the affected area rather than sending troops to persue the agressors,wat a nonsence is that!!
am perplex too to hear that top security team convened a meeting to discus this issue and kadhi court,tis like fighting a fire which has already gutteted a propety down to ashes and trying to salvages an known from the debris.
kianga has failed us,fulstop.
The casualty numbers among the UPDF serving in somalia is still highly classified. On average from our observance data we have 5 black ambulances per week. We still dont know how high they stack them in there but a minimum of 2 inside every ambulance gives at least 10 fallen soldiers.EVERY WEEK!!!!! Compare this with the number of civilian and police casualties we suffer from cross border insurgency. Am not saying those lives dont matter the point is trading in a small number of lost souls for a bigger number is just not sane. And its not like we are not doing anything to counter these insurgents, we have covert ops on the ground. Most of them dont even involve killing. Analyze well the origins of Al shabbab. Previously it was a larger more united and hence outfit called the Islamic Courts Union. They were a force to reckon. How is broke up into splinter groups is not by the power of tanks, its called divide and conquer, entice this camp with goodies. Car bomb the leader of the other camp then dump the blame on the third camp and voila we have an implosion. Those who have knowledge fill in the blanks.
MYgod ..i dont know why these guys are insisting that they are doing something and yet we all can see what is happening…the MOMENT THIS KIANGA talked about cartographers when asked about border incursions …i knew we are in dogs.THIS MAN KIANGA will go down in history as the worst CGS IN CURRENT TIMES….that his spokesman keeps lying to kenyans anytime we have an incident is a well known fact.
I MISS the days we had brave men like DAUDI TONJE,JKMULINGE,MOHAMED ETC.these wazee would not have tolerated this nonsense
JUST GO AND TARGET the leadership of hawa magaidi and hit them hard…tosha kabisa.
KWANINI MULiCHAPA KINA SABOATI LAND REFORM THUGS so quickly and yet you cannot do the same to alshabab..who have declared open hostilities to kenya.?
Why hit the fly on the wall with a sledge hammer, in the end it would be you who would incur the huge cost of building a new house. There are better ways of beating the insurgency other than an all out armed offensive. The media reports the raids that have been made, what about those that are successfully beaten back? Dont forget our press is sensation news based. Anything that will sell papers and increase veiwership is utilized to more than is potential.
Comparing the SLDF to Al shabaab is not fair, they were secessionists bandits with no known ideology, all they knew was bloodshed and they were to be nipped in the bud ASAP, besides infiltration tactics were not bound to work on them since they followed their leader in a deity like manner beyond that the chain of command was non existent. The mission would be tactical with minimal casualties to friendlies. There was also credible info that they were funded, trained and supported by some bandit king somewhere and a message needed to be sent to him that such actions would not be tolerated. I had a squad in those mountains i should know. The things those pigs did were disgusting and inhuman. yet somehow the media forgot that they were the bad guys all over sudden we were the ones who were the human rights violators, not all soldiers walk on the straight and narrow but majority of good men endured and served with diligence out there, calling them human rights violators is an insult to every upright man in uniform, and those that have ever taken the oath head dress in hand to bleed for this country.
That is beside the point, if we are to attack al shabaab it would also be upon us to do the same to the OLF, SPLA the pirates and everyone with an extended family that dares enter this country illegally. These Al shabaab men are not a disciplined force, they have no uniform, no means of identification, they hide amongst women and children, build filed Hqs inside hospitals, schools and mosques. Some of them are even kenyans mind you. Unless we attack every somali and wipe them out the war against Al Shabaab will never end. The Americans tried fighting the Habr Gedr militia back in 1992 and lost that militia didnt survive long after that but as soon as they splintered new groups came up and took their position. What makes you think we can do any different? Its going to be a vicious cycle.
Why do you think they have never been able to launch a single suicide mission inside Nairobi? Yet as soon as Rwanda decided to send in troops in support of Ethiopia and UG grenade attacks in Kigali have erupted and have been steadily increasing?
Bwana, if the Kill-rate was any higher, Spiderman, it will inevitably be speckled with innocent, non-involved civilians, – ergo, we create generational enemies and an endless circle of war. C’mon, man, did you not see any action during your army days? Why are so bloodthirsty, guy? I know dang well you KNOW it ain’t easy, making these choices only God should make of who lives and who doesn’t. You know too well how this affects my chaps when this call fall on them, and they go back home see faces as young as those they wasted calling them “Mbuyu”? The civilians amongst you that are calling for a blood-and-guts response and calling Kianga all manner of insults( ignoring that whatever else he might b, the CGS epitomizes our Character of Men in Uniform), must be made aware that every life a soldier takes that will not seat well with whatever values of morality he applies, revisits that soldier every day of his life!! Therefore, the Morality of Arms must apply in the manner we project of means to violence for us to be any different from these murderous brigands, and for me to keep sending these young chaps in with a government license to kill! Nini baya na wewe, Pato? I am a product of Tonje, and this is a philosophy that even he propagated, na hii njia tunatumia/ tometumia na ambayo ina-inform direction ya strategy yetu kuwezesha amani Kenya kwa kujilenda into depth dani ya inchi zilizotuzingira, kwa kweli ni mpango ulizaliwa na ku-developed na Tonje mwenyewe. So don’t make it look that the Entire Military Command in Kenya has suddenly gone crazy and off tangent, asleep and incompetent, Man! The Military is a living breathing organism, evolving and changed rationally and logically! Tulia Pato, Olekoima. We are doing more than enough without causing an implosion in these countries that could easily suck our Nation into the maelstrom of the violence resultant.
Alshabaab a side,i tumble in some information that kenya is need negotiating with israel to procure UAVs and china for jets fighters.
sudan has already have WS-2ballistic missiles in its store.
every blogg i have seen on this subject is saying one thing…national security in kenya is seroiusly being undermined here…. CLEARLY SOMEONE IS NOT DOING HIS JOBO PROPERLY.YOU guys can advance all sorts of excuses but clearly these pple are able to punch holes into our people
I don’t mean this to be condescending or patronizing, but this whole response & containment strategy is one complicated and convoluted program with incredibly many pieces that must all fit together to maximize penetration/ effectiveness. It involves Civilians and Military Assets, pseudo-groups many who have been turned severally – some eating from several pots!! It is an extremely complex mosaic,; I only understand the bits that are directly in my ring of control or close to it. Need to know, layered clearances, hell, you are afraid of asking queries beyond what you receive directly!! Each component plays it’s designed role the best it can. Even a press statement that announces “a security meeting called to review and … etc” is all part of it. However, the starting point defines the strategy, and that is Containment & Control. SO – We hit them hard with precise deadly intentions, using appropriate quick and quiet infiltration tactics, hammer them harder than they’d known and cause the maximum damage directly to related “hostiles”, and then an extraction just as quiet and quick by a variety of means. Across the border , we flood the place with agents of disinformation moving their “stool pigeons” around the fire-fight site spreading all manner of rumor and planting all sort of ‘Evidence”. The RDF of the AP with a company of GSU /GD chaps quickly deploy to the border, intentionally projected in to remove all semblances that the hit was Military despite the awesome firepower we brought to bear being clearly greater than the RDF and GUS have! Then, you yourself scream your anger that “we get hit and respond with the GSU” – that is the beauty of the piece, Chinook! This low-grade attrition conflict remains just that, and is not tagged “military” which would escalate the preparations for offense by the Brigands and their financiers. However, it cannot be spill-proof, we take some regrettable casualties, and some casualties are exported home in forms of sporadic raids of a brutality that defeats logic – such as the one on Tuesday this week. It is like field-dressing a bullet-wound – there will still leaks no matter how good a field dressing you make!! Surely, does this give you Chinook and you Spiderman the justification to denounce and deride all our efforts and blood sacrifice for you and yours? Weka hii kitu kwa balance, jamaa! Wacheni ku-advocate ma-strategy ya wanamgambo, we just will not win this way, men. Eeissh!! Kweli hawa wakenya ni noma, bana!
Spider for a man whos been in the service you sure are burying you head real deep in the sand. Yes we all know that at times bureaucracy tends to stick its head into military affairs but rest assured that there is a war going on and in any kind of war casualties are inevitable. This is the best way possible to deal with the al shabaab threat, not a head on frontal attack. Even the mightiest cannot fight what they cannot see.
But then again i would not blame the CGS for those incursions. In my view the colonial government and the early independent administration are to share the blame for what we are witnessing. On the ground moist of the people in this area feel disoriented as to their nationality and belonging, this creates loopholes where the insurgent groupings can exploit. The ultimate key to victory here is not military rather it is socio economic. Ways should be looked at to fully integrate these outposts into the republic through development projects and boosting their economic potential. The policy of isolation of the northern frontier will soon not be useful, infrastructure development and increasing government presence in this area is the way to go.
Spider I think you have personal vendetta with the CGS. what did he do to you? Alikunyima pass during x-mas, when you where serving? Just a light moment.
I don,t k know what else you guys need to be told ,all the facts have been laid In front of you. privilege information that most Kenyans never heard about yet your still calling for military action. It looks like most guys haven’t been to the Kenyan borders. Hakuna sinyege hapo that ukivuka hapa then your in Kenya and vise versa. Part of Somali and Ethiopia on a horizontal line is in Kenya. if you were to draw one. Its an open area very hard to police. Tribes with the same ethnicity criss cross back and forth .unless we plant a soldier every kilometer it’s actually impossible to stop people from criss crossing into our nation. how has the Nation security fail then?
Ok spider wewe ulikwa mwanajeshi ungelifanya nini kipya kati hali hii ya al shabaab?
Spiderman, when were you last deployed anyway, armed kitted and ready to die? Are you truthfully expecting credibility from such amateuristic, half-baked analysis of intricate and sensitive military situations basing on third rated data from insecure heavily infiltrated blog-sites into which is injected daily compromised information? I read through detailed intelligence briefs, daily and as often as needed, from a variety of Agencies, our own and friendlies; I have immediate and direct access to real-time satellite high-definition photography and taped and real-time conversations taking place anywhere if the threat justifies it. I demand for and secure personal data of contributors on any blog-site, military and civilian. I have advantage of spot-on collated, sequentially generated analysis of heavy raw or refined Intel by extremely well trained, equipped and experienced civilian and military analysts in our own and of friendly Agencies. No suppositions, no back-tracks – all real, and happening. Like a lot of Uniforms on this blogs and others, we contribute only to encourage those of our Colleagues uniforms that haven’t access to classified data due to need-to-know, with bits that don’t compromise our brief. We are not apologist as Spiderman blithely states, nor ineffectual and uncaring as Chinook feels. Whatever simulation that are carried out here, are purely to start a chat- line .Weka hii mambo kwa balance bana!!
sawa sawa wazee kwa vile nyinyi ndio mnajua zaidi..hiyo mambo nime waachia mwendelee nayo..i will not blogg on this until the next time something comes up
Well let’s change the subject. We have been on this too long and i think some people are getting offended. I don’t think this should be the case. Let’s learn from each other.
Hapana bana, don’t walk away, soldier. We are brothers in this thing and your concerns are our concerns too. I reckon we are just asking for balanced and fair comment. No one is perfect, bana, and no matter what little good you think has been achieved, a lot of brave and good chaps have paid with their lives for it, many families still living proof of this, Spiderman! Just give your fair and balanced comment and let’s all move on educating each other, Pato. Anything else that denigrates their sacrifice is in my books dishonorable to any man that has ever been their brother-at-arms. Ama?
SAWA mdosi.point noted and thanks for all your efforts to bring sanity to this blogg.AND just to clear the air i have nothing personal towards ANYONE TOP BRASS IN our beloved motherland kenya..yaani i got upset when we were discussiing issues as kenyans here in UK and some the things they said are too graphic to say here about the failures of the leadersip to protect kenyan borders… THATS why i took a swipe at KIANGA…yaani some of us felt huyu jamaa hafanyi job yake vipoa.
ON that note i can see that there was a top security meeting by all the top guys in view of the latest incident at wajir and my sources tell me that something big is in the works to deal with hii maneno.ALSO kwa vile yule vice PREZI wa Kijana wetu huko uncle sam ana kuja june 7..wadosi hawataki jina mbaya kwa sababu ya security.SO LETS wait and see .
Comrades, let us discuss jet fighters or matters aviation where am more at home. Contributions on the merits and demerits of the hardware that we may acquire in future(F-16, JAS-39 Gripen, Chinese birds- am personally not recommending them as they have not been fully tested. C-295 – one of the best military transport planes. Lets compare it with the C-27J Spartan, Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules……
The HERCULES C130 is king of the park.i have had the privilage of organizing security and ground logistical back up for SWEDISH AIRFORCE C130 CREW who were on secondment to UN/ICRC /IFRC HUMANITARIAN missions IN Nairobi.for the eastern congo crisis betwen June 1995 upto december 1997.
The craft operated between JKIA kigali,ngara in tz,bukavu,goma and kisangani…carrying relief supplies and dropping these on sometimes 5 day contnous non stop missions.
THE capabilities of this C130 are amazing.it could do in one sortie all those drops continously without need for refueling .at one time the crew flew one 13 hour mission and they said they can configure the craft to do up to 17 hours with maximum payload on ferry range.
i was watching the RDU of the AP on action/deployement in wajir,the boys looks good than even the GSU,do you guys concur with this?
Do they too have separate barracks like their counterparts in GSU from the rest of APS flock?
There were plans to equip them with machine guns and choppers,any information on this?
AT the moment the AP SEEM to be enjoying massive funding and support from the government and the numbers have increased substantially. however thier command and control stucture is not as good as the GSU.and if you ask me if i was in trouble i would rather have a GSU come to my help than the AP.
Good question, Chinook. Remember we chatted a while ago that the Basic Fight-philosophy of each Unit is primarily tailored to its specific tasking? Defines the Unit? And that the training & indoctrination (after Basic School) flows from this philosophy? And that the Kitting, armament and equipment, Command &Control structures as well? If then you defined in general terms the GSU to be Iron-Fist of the Police(Law-enforcement) (similar to some SWART Law-and-order formation in the West), the RDF /AP is coined as the Counter-Insurgency Hammer-head Containment & Suppression Force tasked along contentious, volatile borders directly reacting / responding to Civilian and Military Intel. Any local situation that develops, say an local egress by Al-shabaab, we send in these very hard-nuts to repulse and then control the Contact-Zone. The GSU follow in hot behind the RDF/AP to deal with the Civil necessities of law-and-order (letting the RDF loose on the civilian population will be disastrous if the situation remains aggressively volatile and fluid). If the Brigands return in force, and expand their egress, then we aggravate our response with the deployment of an appropriate force of the Rangers operating into substantial reverse-depth off the contact-zone doing you-know-what and utilising greater means of violence and employing infinitely quicker response/deployment and enjoying dedicated close-air support from both Fixed and Rotary winged birds; if need be finally the Delta /CDU choir boys go in on free-fire engagement rules mostly resulting to action with extreme prejudice. If none of these don’t work, then some level of general Armed Conflict follows. The RDF have separate quarters , just like the GSU versus their GD counterparts for the above reasons of different philosophies. They are training in formats that will require a SAW, but I have not seen that this will be of the abilities of the GPMG used by heavier formations. The Helio will primarily be for Command & Control purposes and Medi-evac; all deployment requiring helio insertions will be provided by existing stock – keep it simple. And yes, they are damn good too!!
VERY good insight and in simple terms the GSU main SOP procedures are” fanya fujo uone” while that of AP is roughly samething like” fanya fujo umalizwe”
Those days we used to see APS idling away at chiefs centres/offices doing nothing are soon ending as their is a drive to transform them into a primary border guard force..hence the need to equip them with heavier guns and air mobilty..since they now rely on THE NORMAL POLICE choppers which are adequatetly busy doing other duties.
I concur with spiderman, they have mad skills but their command structure is full of loopholes. Yes the RDU operates different barracks but that is just about as far as their operational autonomy goes. I dont know about choppers but machine guns and armed patrol boats for a marine policing unit are done deals. Personally i think merging the AP into the Kenya Police Command is a good idea. They are after all trained killing machines and not political pawns.
On the contrary “D” if you analyze it to greater depth (theoretically of course), the Command Structure of the RDU/AP is uniquely separate from the General Police, in fact even more removed than the GSU which itself is essentially parallel. There lies the point of concern in certain political circles and the resolute drive to unify the two Forces under a Central Command. What corrupts irreparably the AP Oversight Command Structure is the incompetence of Command at various levels, which is an inherited problem. This unequal state of ability ( the young hot-shot RDU Commanders vs the old overweight politically-supported/promoted AP Commanders) is the weak chain in the development of the RDU /AP Force. I know though that we are fighting to give operational independence to the RDU Commanders from the general oversight of the AP until such as time as there comes through the AP Command Ranks chaps with Command sophistication and competence. And there really ought not be too much concern about the proliferation of different armed formations as long as their basic defining philosophies are markedly different/unique to each – such as in the USA where even Intel gathering is a function of a multitude of Agencies complimenting each other on entirely different emphasis and tasking. Heavy equipment for the RDU would be wholly unsuited to the purpose the RDU is intended, who in military terms may be defined as a sort of very light infantry shock-troops rushed into whatever breech that arises while we get our asses into gear
There have been reports (hushed from the public) of friction between the RDU command and the AP overall command concerning armament and operations tactics. This together with the simmering bad blood between the APs and the regular blue boys really puts a strain on their working relations. Granted inter formation rivalry is normal and in some cases healthily encouraged but if the rivalry starts to affect the core functions of the formations in question it becomes a problem. The regular police and some sections of the AP command do not take lightly the arming of the RDU. But i do not see a problem in giving the RDU machine guns considering the kind of work they are trained to do squad automatic weapons are essential. But choppers is stretching the line a little too much, command vehicles and unarmored troop carriers is more in their sight of mobility. Apart from filling in the gaps in a light infantry role they are also trained in policing captured and occupied territories and civilian control in these areas.
Dang right you are “D”. SAW integral Squad Weapon, no doubt, although it is not yet decide if it will be a British or American size, Choppers NO – simply confuses the design of the RDU. The rumors are true about the suspicion between the various police formations, very much coz of what I mentioned early post, but hell, “D’” even at Basic we all have scrapped with each other in the same Army, eh? But the Command deficiencies of the AP Oversight is a National Defense concern because it weakens a vital security link. But, Man, do you know how gratifying it is to read the richness of intellect on these blogs from Uniforms?
THE deficiencies of the command and control set up of the AP stems from the historical linkage on the provincial admin system right from the times they were refered to as tribal police by the british colonizersTHEY were futher compromised during the heady days of HEZEKIZH OYUGI who tried and succesfully set up the provincial admin and the AP as an alternative source of intelligence for political purposes. therefore the top brass in this set up are still politically inclined to be monoplized as we saw during 2006/20072008 and still now they are resistant to change.
HOWEVER the up coming leadersip is more open and its a matter of time before we see any significant changes.
JUST wondering how is our intell organized these days and weather there is good coordination .UNCLE sam has sixteen diffrent inteligent gathering organizations all employing diffrent assets under one national control.The nsis appears to rely heavily on military inteligence operatives. i know this is an open forum but am sure someone can throw in a few tit bits for our consumption.can we roll on?
Spiderman, your are wrong about the NSIS. There is some convergence and some integral overlaps but not what you say. But I would much advise you drop this line of inquiry right away. Here, not even eagles will dare go. And the flip side is that we would be soiling our commissions and country to discuss this topic this openly. Let’s stay where we have always been, Mate, eh?
AHA..was only trying to light a fire with a wet machstick…dont worry i know my limits on this as well and also know the works.
Sasa spider and friends mumuskia Shaabab confessing on the issue of his attacks? They said it is a revenge for………..This is what we have been informing you ever since.
Kenyan ace I notice you have precise info. in air matters are you in uniform? or do you fly for that matter ?or is it just a hobby?
Shika Kamba
Blog member plus Mr Tororo ji_enjoy na maroon commandos for the month end weekend. Spider I know ume miss hii mambo
kamata kichwa kamta mgongo eeh……………
NICE music …thanks risasi ..i bought the CDversion of the maroon production KENYA UNITE. on internet here in UK .and this cd has never left my car it plays all the time in the car and my wife and kids are sick of it whenever they ride in my car….hawa hawajui sisi damu yetu ni moja.
I also noticed that the RDU also have the same berret as the delta.
we’ve talked much of the army and airforce,where are the navy BOYS??/
Hi Risasi,
Smart fellow, smart contributions. You really got me on this one by blowing my cover very easily. Am a civilian but very very proud of our men and women in uniform. Hats off to you brave warriors.
On aviation matters, I have more than passing interest. For me it’s a passionate hobby borne out of unfulfilled childhood dreams. Am simply fascinated by flying(both civil & military) and I spend considerable time and resources trying to catch up with latest aviation news. It’s also my patriotic duty to morally support the defenders of our nation.
hehehe….those 7th battalion guys sure had fun. yeah here are the frogmen?is there no one out there to speak for them?i would but i dont look too good in white.
@kenyan-ace most welcomed. i notice two or three of your contributions that were handy during the Su discussion. esp. when you proposed the AWACS in precise. Have you completed your PPl?
@Double rotor Chinook what is it you want from mtongwe? pale nilipo fika niko na knowledge kiasi. Sema ni sikie
@ “D” jamaa wana cheza na ma Humvee kama kitu ingine . wapi Tororo ajione
@kenyan-ace most welcomed. i notice two or three of your contributions that were handy during the Su discussion. esp. when you proposed the AWACS in precise. Have you completed your PPl?
@Double rotor Chinook what is it you want from mtongwe? pale nilipo fika niko na knowledge kiasi. Sema ni sikie
Kenya Ace wewe ni mnoma. One day WHEN on IF we meet ill be sure to salute you. Your knowledge of military aviation is on point for a civilian. When push comes to shove the armed forces sure would use a couple of guys like you. In what other country in this region could you find such diverse human resources resources?
Chinook, Jasiri does indeed have great naval knowledge, his info on his namesake boat stuck in spain and its capabilities were very enlightening, i would suggest you use for now before some guy from mtongwe ajitokeze.
Heh, Heh, and you wonder why Tonje is venerated by our Military Establishment? I doubt there is any other African Country where Uniforms are as educated and international exposed. To fight a good war, you need an educated citizenry. See how fast we can mobilise?
Men, we are Kenyans!!
what happen? kuna nini? ha ah ha ha ha!!!
Congratulations Mr Tororo on your new acquired Armed personnel carries.
Keep it up njia ndiyo hiyo.
You will get there one day.
quite an interesting blog……am not a military man….but am so interested in the military instruments….am a computer scientist workin on a project of intelligent war machines….hopin 2 radically change the 21st century battle field scene….
the first 4th generation fighter planes are in the neighbour hood. 2 bad they are not in our hands of kenya. GOD HELP US ALL. one of our immediate neighbour has just added to her asenal SU30MK2. we have nothing at the moment that can stop that plane.
airforceone, feel free to read the earlier comments posted by members of this blog on this very issue. if you understand battlefield tactics you will realize we are more than capable of dealing with those SU30s, this issue has been exhausted. On the same breath did anyone notice those F5s in yesterdays fly past looked different. was it just me or did i see small forward canards on those birds. clarification please.
you are right D i think that is for some electronic stuff coz they were to small to be maneouver related. i told someone the K.A.F was sending a statement and he thought i was nuts! it reminds me of the small canards of the B1-B Lancer, risasi clarify tafadhali.
risasi
i wanted to know if the mtongwe boys can really defend our waters with the machine which they have,as they says,”where the waves goes,goes the navy or if they are realy under water machines”.
i have’nt seen the newly acquired anti tank machines in action-WZ-9,wat happened?
From wat i have observed,i have realized the kenya police are more active than any other police in africa as fer as their operation are concerned.
lets take the example of thr RDU/GSU of the police,thise boy can cause a mayhem even to an infantry in some of our neighbours solders wen it comes to action.the RDU can challenge the updf in battle field.
wat suprises me again is that the RDU are more well equipt than the GSU.
To airforceone as D suggested read through this page on Risasi,April 16, 2010 at 8:31 pm comments. for your answer.
To D you might have seen In-Flight Probes or
Conformal Tanks
To chinook the navy can defend vividly. No Subs’ yet if that what you were asking.WZ-9 are at Moi. they had a hitch but they will be in action soon . These are new birds still under warranty. WZ-9 are for the ranger battalions
. the air force will also lead a hand to sea borne affairs.
http://www.kenya.info/ally/peace/
The Chinese J-10 will not be available for export until sometime in 2014/2015 and Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, meaning that others might have to wait a little longer.Assuming that we go for this bird, is this time frame good enough then?. Procuring the bird and integrating it into the existing arsenal will obviously take further time. Just thinking a loud. What do you say guys?
separatelly, Ole Nkarei hit me up on raptor.301@gmail.com. we have something to discuss, warrior to warrior.
Hey Raptor – am IN, up to my ears, mate! Will be back in couple weeks, hopefully. Will reach you. And that F5 nose- bulge is not a Flight Probe or a Conformal Tank, guys!! There is plenty of Fly-boys on this blog to tell us “something!!”
Hi guys,
I’ve just witnessed a mighty show of power by the Americans at JKIA in the morning. Two C-17 Globemaster III’s were offloading some vehicles( to be used by their VP Joe Biden when he visits us). I was watching from a safe distance through the wire mesh fence but I got the feel of what it is to be a SUPER POWER.
what i saw on madaraka day was nice new modern jets – check out this link this is what i saw – if you notice the nose has been elongated slightly compared with the kawaida tigers we originally had very cute jet i must say – all with the modern avionics from Israel…hebu check out the new cockpit…
I have been following this interesting debate for over one year. It offers a very insightful to what goes on behind the barracks. The only thing i can say that you can have the best military equipment, military colleges and the rest but that does not mean anything if you have not being tested in the battle. Thats why i think the AP and GSU are the most battle tested forces in Kenya because of what they have to deal with unlike the Kenya military
that’s a big blog. read a bit. regarding the upgrades to the f-5, to my knowledge kenyan f-5 doesn’t have the 2032 radar and bvr missiles. it would be helpful if there is a link which proves that it does have them.
FROM what has been allocated in this years kenya national bugget for defence,there is a reduction of about 1.5 billion. kshs…it seems absurd that when we are living in dangerous neighbourhoods and when our next do guys are buying SU 30S THAT WE SHOULD BE SPENDING less on defence.what is going on here?
What happened to the guy who live at the fence of MAB? he posted his comment then erased them?
Seedlong What radars are the Kenya F-5s using?
SPIDERman Twende na mioango yetu. They are the ones that are trying to catch up.
chalo, The picture you posted looks like the F-5N for the United States navy aggressor squadrons. There suppose to simulate Russian fighters. Notice the red star emblem on its tail and the bluish camouflage like what the Russian use? this is a USN f-5 that uses the Emerson AN/APG-69radar similar in operation to the in F-16 radars. The AN/APG-69 has BvR capabilities and can fire AIM-7 missile.
hi again.
it’s an/apq159. it can fire short range aim9, but cannot fire bvrs like aim7 & aim120.
if you’re talking ’bout the jordanian ones, some of the jordanian f-5s were upgraded to an/apg-67 radar but they were still not bvr capable.
Do you know which series the jordanian F-5 belong too?
as you mention above earlier which link told you about the an/apg-67 radar to the kenyan F-5
jordanian fighters were upgraded with the an/apg67 radars. so there is possibility that these fighters got transferred to kenya. if not then they’ll have the standard radar suite of an/apg159. the ones kenya had before are standard suite of f-5, which is either an/apq159 or an/apq153. probably the former.
the link- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force
Modernization schemes continued with seven F-5Es sold to Singapore and some funding used to upgrade most of the remaining others with the AN/APG-67 radar (found on the aborted F-20 Tigershark, once an aircraft under evaluation by the RJAF), modern fire control systems, and WVR AAMs, thus putting the F-5 on par with more modern aircraft in terms of electronics. Despite this, the F-5s lack a BVR combat capability.
what you posted is an assumed hypothesis based on what you read on several websites.
Secondly huku jibu swali langu
……… what series did Kenya buy from Jordan?
thirdly out of all the F-5 that Jordan had (some upgraded with newer radars while some weren’t), I don’t know how you assumed that the F-5 with the an/apg67 radars were the ones that were sold Kenya. How did you arrive to that conclusion?
To add more, BvR maneuvers have been practiced since the WWII. Its not a recent feature only adopted to 4th generation fighters as you might think. The AN/APQ-159 which you state is with the older F-5 in Kenya can also offer BvR ranges.
not sure which series they are but ‘most’ of the jordanian jets were upgraded to apg67 as said earlier. so there is a high possibility that some of them were transferred to kenya. or else it’s apq159.
sorry, i don’t speak your lang.
apq159 and 153 are the standard f-5 radar suite. it’s not something i’ve assumed.
not sure what you’re implying by bvr maneuvers since ww2, but if you’re saying ww2 fighters can fire bvr missiles then you’re wrong.
yes, apq159 can offer bvr ranges, but it cannot fire bvr missiles. there are a lot of things which are needed apart from bvr range to fire a bvr missile, like enhanced processor power, datalink etc built into the radar to guide the missile.
i came here to ask about the link to 2032 radar since this is a kenyan site and you people may have the link to the updated info. on what basis where the folks here saying kenyan f-5s have them?
its good to see that foreigners frequent our forum. where do you hail from seedlong?
And why do you find it difficult to accept that the 2032 is here?
i’m from the states. it’s good to be here.
it’s because 2032 radar is a big upgrade. it’d be nice to see if that really is the case. like the others have done, turning vietnam era jets to fire some pretty lethal current gen bvr missiles is nice!
I will have to avoid some specifics as these are still new birds in our airforce.
Jordan is habitual for selling some of its F-5 in order to upgrade the remainder squadrons. upgrades are done by the Jordan Aeronautical-systems Company (JAC). The fundamental rule in upgrading is to “tailor make existing aircrafts that have air worthy frames accordingly to your own NEEDS while abiding to the end user agreements”. The phase tailor making indicates that this aircraft will be refitted for your own specific needs. upgrades are unlikely to be similar even thought they look alike and exist in the same series. 2 or 3 birds upgrade can go unnoticed by the world wide web while some Wouldn,t get the Series alphabet changed
the latest upgrade involving 23 Jordanian F-5 include fitting them with BAe LINS 300 laser INS , the Selenia ALQ-234 EW jammers, RWR ,HOTAS controls and latter some got the APG-66 or APG-67 radars. The APG-66 radar is the same radar that is being used by the F-16. these F-5 MLU made it similar or close to the F-16 in avionic performance. and after Jordan attained its F-16 simulations concluded this findings.
Out of the 23 F-5 Kenya procured 15 and further upgraded them with Israeli avionics and some got Israeli radars before being delivered. Clarifications When the tigers were in the hand of the Jordanians they never possessed any Israeli avionic for obvious reasons. The Kenya tigers that got the Israeli radars are denoted by the series EM similar to the Brazilian and the Chilean tigers.
The F-5EM or rather the Tiger III.
BvR: during The Korean War (1950–53) the AiM-7 Sparrow which is a BvR missile was used against the MiG17/19. BvR is not a new aspect in aerial combat.
BvR is not a new aspect in aerial combat limited only to 4th generation fighters.
i’m not aware of apg66 on jordanian f-5s. where does it say that’s the case?
an aim-7 kill on mig-17/19 in the 1950-53 korean war? impossible! where does it say that? further more mig-15 was the soviet fighter, and 17/19 wasn’t even used during the war.
any source claiming 2 or 3 fighters were upgraded for the kaf with the israeli 2032?
#1.Why do you think you should be aware of the AN/APG66 on Jordanian f-5s?
The differences between an F-5 that carries latest radar like the 2032 or AN/APG66 or the AN/APG67 is the size of its nose. 2032 or AN/APG66 radars have bigger antennas thus requiring a large and redesigned nose for the F-5, while the a AN/APG67 which is meant for F-5 upgrades offer oval antennas that can fit into the F-5. Designed to Fit the Aircraft Designed to Fit the Mission… , is the slogan for the AN/APG67
check out the pic,s of the Jordanian F-5 to get the answers. And for your information the AN/APG67 is a BvR radars. Jordanian F-5 have BvR aspects
#2.I might have misplaced my wording on the issue of the BvR. But all in all BvR has been active for a long time with the AiM-7,AIM-54 ,Kaliningrad K-5 among many this technology is not limited only to 4th generation fighters technology . you should know this its your country which conducted these wars. the types of aircrafts used or in which war the missile was fired is irrelevant at this point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-7_Sparrow#Sparrow_III
#3On your last question I already answered you. The Kenyan tigers of the EM serise have that radar.
we are following the steps which the Jordanians took. The Jordanians were expecting F-16s and started upgrading F-5 with similar radars and avionics. This makes it easy for the tech team when the new birds arrive.
hmmmm maybe i wasn’t clear but i’m looking for links to the info the people provided here. some solid proof. well, if you’re saying F-5s have apg66 then please show me the links. also apg67 is a bigger radar than apq159 hence a bigger cone. and apg67 are not bvr combat capable was made pretty clear in my previous link.
misplaced your wording? yes, i’m aware of bvr missile kills from the vietnam war. but not so in the korean war. and mig17/19 certainly didn’t take part in the korean war kind sir.
you didn’t. as i previously stated i’m looking for proof of that claim. if the kenyans did upgrade their radar similar to the brazilians then some nice links would be helpful. it looks to me you’re making up stuff to suit your desires. everyone does that since they wish their country had the best equipment, but what someone wishes and what is reality are 2 different things. we are having everything on the ground there and yet our generals are whispering about talking to the taliban and labeling them good and bad. such is the reality.
what stands firm is a solid link in this case.
YOU guys are wasting blogg value by going on and on and on about the capabilities of these used F5 sTHAT kenya bought from Jordan.we ALL know how this debate started way back in 2007/2008 and to date we have had over 935 contributions on the subject plus others..AND TO ME there is nothing of value to be added other than the general consensus that the F5 purchase should be coinsidered a stop gap measure while efforts are being made to get more state of the art equipment to counter the su 30s, and the mig 29s our neighbours are getting.
WE SHOULD now focus on the current events like the attack on the NO rally on sunday at uhuru park.TO me and a few others here in the UK we see this as a sinister event that points to terrorism against our people.LOBBING live grenades into a crowd of civilians is a terrible act that needs to be condemned and it my duty to ask all bloggers to condemn this act ..and i would not be surprised if the rug tag thugs next door are resposible.
Hi all. New to the forum.
Just to clarify the situation, the exact Su-30 variant offered to Uganda is Su-30MK2. “MK” stands for “modernized commercial” (commercial = export). MK2 is an upgrade of MK which itself is very close to MKK that was being sold to China. It doesn’t have either the N011M Bars PESA radar or TVC like MKI (MK-India). FYI, N011M is so heavy that MKI is a completely re-designed airframe as compared to MKK..
MK2 is equipped with Zhuk-MSE radar which offers detection performance up to abt 190km vs a 5m2 RCS (RCS = radar cross-section), and a rather basic avionics, ECM and ECCM package.
When discussing BVR target acquisition, it is important to remember that the target’s RCS is of huge importance. Frontal RCS of Su-30 is abt 10m2 whereas for F-5 it’s only abt 1m2.
I do not know (yet) which exactly F-5’s Kenya procured from Jordan, but if indeed they have AN/APG-67, that would give them up to abt 140km vs a 5m2 RCS.
However, if you factor in the difference in frontal RCS, Su-30MK2 only has a marginal advantage of about 10km. Even a single F-5 is therefore a threat to the Su-30, especially when flown by a skilled by pilot who can ambush the Sukhoi using landscape features and/or turn at the right angle capitalize on his bird’s low RCS.
With EL/M 2032 (its capabilities are assumed somewhere in between AN/APG-68 V5 and AN/APG-68 V9) and advanced BVR weapons like AIM-120D, the F-5 turns into a very potent enemy. The Sukhoi would (contrary to a popular belief, despite its weight and even without VTC engines) still out-manouver an F-5 in a WVR engagement, enjoying an advantage in both thrust and wing load, but having a better cockpit visibility and simply being smaller, the F-5 is by no means easy prey.
These conclusions have in fact been confirmed by the performance of Israeli-upgraded MIG-21’s in multi-national Red Flag excercises in the US.
I only hope these Jordanian F-5’s still have some reasonable airframe lifetime remaining.
Seems however that this discussion is sort of academic in nature because for a country with hardly any Air Force at all to start off with Su-30’s is idiocy. Not only do they have no Air Force, there is no national air defence; they can hardly operate their AA Arty. They have little idea about airfield security or base security. There just so many ways of preventing these Sukhoi’s from ever taking off that any serious adversary would have a hard time choosing the one he likes best.
YOU are mostly right on some issues but dead wrong on airfield or base security.I HAVE BEEN to entebe many times where the main so called airforce operates from and i can tell you that this is one of the most secure airports in east africaTHE military uses the old side while the commercial activity takes place on the modernised side.ENTEBE is an island and all approaches are easy to monitor and defend.
Entebbe is a peninsula. One way in and one way out – is it really an adavantage or a disdvantage?
Like, L16 mortar has a weight of 41kg and a range of 5.6 km. The whole of Entebbe town is within 5.6km from the old airstrip (12/30). A 41kg weapon isn’t hard to conceal, and 81mm HE is a capable munition. If you can do enough damage to the airfield to force the Sukhoi’s to stay grounded for a couple of hours early in the war..
That’s just one of the ideas. AGM-88 and JDAM’s aside..)
The Entebbe airport is indeed secured against a terror threat. But 1) Ugandans themselves have nothing to do with it; 2) we aren’t talking of a terror threat. If you think that the old Entebbe can boast top-class point defence (AA, CB), please substantiate.
And IMHO, should these Su-30’s indeed be delivered (which I’m not really sure of), Ugandans will be so dependant on Russian ground crews and merc pilots that any attack launched on Jan 1st, Feb 24th or May 10th, will be especially effecive, if you know what I mean!
am no flyboy all this talk about radars with fancy denotations sounds alien to me. what i know however is a basic F-5 when i see one. they spend a considerable amount of time on teaching us groundhogs how to identify aircraft on sight. now on the last madaraka day fly past those F-5s looked different. the nose was totally redesigned and bigger than the ones in the past years.i thought i also sighted canards on those birds but like i said i am not a flyboy but id trust my 20-20 vision any day. Seedlong there are many truths that are unwritten and undocumented and many truths that are not. Deterrence value is not one of our defensive strategies here in Kenya unlike in your country, we prefer to keep most of our recent military acquisitions hush hush. The political dynamics of the region demand this as a means to avoid an arms race. We are not too keen on a cold war scenario.
yes, there are a lot of stuff which remain under wraps when it comes to the military. but this is not an excuse for people to make stuff up which suits their interests. you know, there are a lot of people here in the u.s who claim the military is having alien technology. there are even popular movies made on that incident, including independence day. when the mysterious crash happened in roswell air field in 1947, there are a lot eyewitness to support the claim that it was indeed an ufo which crashed with aliens. but the fact remains that there is no concrete proof on that claim. only theories and eyewitness. if i were to follow your examples on your f-5s, then it means my country is hiding some pretty lethal alien photon & plasma cannons. see how absurd it sounds? all that stuff about area51, roswell is all just theories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_Incident
…………………………….org/wiki/Area_51
as previously mentioned, the apg67 is a bigger radar than apq159. so the nose will be bigger to accommodate the former.
Yes, these must be the ex-RJAF tigers with APG-67.
EL/M 2032, on the contrary, would fit in a standard nose cone, as can be seen on Chilean F-5E-III
It’s interesting that the 23 upgraded ex-RJAF Tigers were initially supposed to be sold to Indonesia but the deal was blocked by the US for political reasons:
SUDAN ARMY
APCs and IFVs
Fahd (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 50
OT-62 (TOPAS) (Tracked armoured personnel carrier) 10
OT-64 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 40
M113A3 (Tracked armoured personnel carrier) 36
M3 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 25
BTR-152 (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 80
BTR-80 (GAZ 5903) (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 47
Rakash (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 20
Boragh(WZ 501) (Wheeled armoured personnel carrier) 10
AMX VCI (Infantry fighting vehicle/APC) 5
BMP-1 (Infantry fighting vehicle/APC) 24
BMP-2 (Infantry fighting vehicle/APC) 20
YW 531 – Type 63 (Tracked armoured personnel carrier) 50
Walid (Patrol Vehicle) 100
ARMOURED FIGHTING VEHICLES
SALADIN (Reconnaissance Vehicle/AFV) 50
BRDM-2 (Reconnaissance Vehicle/AFV) 120
Ferret Mk 1/1 (Reconnaissance Vehicle/AFV) 60
LAV-150 Commando (Reconnaissance Vehicle/AFV) 55
AML (Reconnaissance Vehicle/AFV) 5
BV-206 (Reconnaissance Vehicle/AFV) 15
TANKS
T-55 (Main battle tank) 250
Type 96(ZTZ-96) (Main battle tank) 10
Type 62/WZ132 (Light tank) 70
M60A3 (Modernization of the vehicle) 20
ARTILLERY – 145 systems
Self-propelled guns and howitzers
• 155mm Mk F-3 (AMX) – 6 units (acquired 1984)
• 122mm 2S1 – 10 units (acquired 2003)
Towed guns and howitzers
• 155mm M-114 -12 units (acquired 1981)
• 130mm Type 59/M-46 – 75 units
• 122mm D-30 – 22 units (2002)
• 105mm M-101 – 20 units
MRLs
•122mm BM-21 – 90 units
•122mm Saqr – 50 units
• 122mm type 81 – 18 units
• 107mm Type 63 – 500 units (mostly mounted on Toyota 4X4 trucks)
SUDAN AIR FORCE
Combat Aircraft
Interceptors
• MiG-29 22 (total number acquired since 2003)
• MiG-23 2 (in service since 1987)
Ground Attack
• MiG-23BN- 6 units (acquired 2006)
• Su-25 -10 units (acquired 2008)
Transport Aircraft
• An-24 (Coke)/An-26 – 4
• C-130H Hercules – 4 (1978)
• DHC-5D Buffalo – 3 (1978)
• Fokker F-27 – 1 (1974)
• Mystère-Falcon 50 – 1 (1983)
• Mystère-Falcon 20 – 1 (1978)
• An-74 – 2 units (acquired 2005)
• An-32 – 1 unit (acquired 2001)
• Y-8 (An-12) 2 units (acquired 2002)
Training and Liaison Aircraft
Jet trainers
• K-8 Karakorum – 12 units (acquired 2004..also used for ground
attack)
• BAC-145 Jet Provost- 5 (1969)
• BAC-167 Strikemaster – 3 (1984)
Helicopters
Attack
• Mi-24 Hind – 24 units (acquired since 2002)
Medium transport
• Mi-8/17 (Hip) – 26 units (acquired since 2002)
• SA-330 Puma/IAR-330 – 12 units (wef 1985)
Light transport
• MBB BO-105 – 5 (acquired 1980, some serving with police)
As of 31 December 2009
(ISRAELI INSTITUTE OF STRATEGIC STUDIES)
BEEG EAGLE,
You have posted in the wrong site. We were on the ‘Kenya armed forces pictures’ blog not this site.This blog is currently discussing the F-5 radar upgrades for the Kenyan air force. Your posting is therefore misplaced. Move it to the right site as a continuation of your earlier post.
i must be concentrating on one blog for too long. where is this site that lead to beeg eagles post?sounds juicy. seedlong i only have a single question for you. is it not possible to fit a ELM 2032 radar suit on an F-5III?if it is then it doesnt warrant comparison to the roswell fairy tales now does it?
‘D”
Just type “Kenya armed forces pictures” and there you go. There is also the other blog titled ” Uganda army a hardened battle force”. Go to this site too and see what we have been discussing there as well.Alternatively go to the menu by the side above and click the appropriate site.
the roswell one is indeed ‘fairy tales’ for the rest of us, but there are people who think it’s the truth. not to mention the ‘eyewitness’ accounts. just because a radar can fit in a f-5 doesn’t mean you can built up tales of it being in the kaf. if every country’s online folks did the same then they can also say- “hey latest aesa radars can fit on the f-16s. so our country has them!” -while the fact is only uae’s f-16 has them. everyone will happily say what they like to have in their country’s planes. the discussion would turn into a riot without proper facts to back it up.
@mugwiira. yeah it looks like they are the rjaf jets.
I MUST jump onto this beefeater bandwagon…no wonder this site had gone slow kumbe guys are discussing serious things elsewhere…LOOKS like this seedlong blogger is proving to be an annecesary distraction…WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THOSE TALES ABOUT AREA 51 nor the longstanding CIA inspired conspirancy theories and holywood inspired features about aliens and ROSWELL….LET us talk matters concerning east africa in real terms.
BEEG EAGLE kindly give us a break we have a matter in hand. Mugwiira nice contributions’
the AN/APG-67 was meant for to upgrade the F-5 and has BvR aspect . Jordanian F-5 had BvR aspects.
seedlong my dear why should I spoon feed you with knowledge? Any good reason? You are exhibiting behaviors of a farm Hog that does nothing more then eats and sleeps on its excreta. take little time and effort, search the web and you will find your answers. You are posting sites on UFO and mysterious crash while you can,t search the web for simple information. I find it amusing that an American is critically concerned about what sub Sahara forces are procuring. (funguweni macho jamaa) I highly doubt you are from the states and if you are then they is an asylum that is missing its patient.
Ok read and LOOK at the pictures of PDF file from Lockheed Martin below. The radar offers two dishes, oval or circular ones. Why would you need to redesign the radardom if the manufactures offer you a fitting dish? call them for more clarifications
Click to access 7729.pdf
the truth shall always be. Have it you way Kenya doesn’t have 2032 or any BvR radar. I am no longer interested in your conversation as it’s been a one way traffic.
apg67 was a radar developed for the f-20. when the f-20 program was canceled, it found it’s way to f-5 program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-67
The AN/APG-67 is a multi-mode all-digital X band coherent pulse doppler radar originally developed by General Electric for the F-20 Tigershark program of the early 1980s.
The jordanian f-5 doesn’t have bvr was made pretty clear in my previous post. do i need to post it again?
…Used to upgrade most of the remaining others with the AN/APG-67 radar (found on the aborted F-20 Tigershark, once an aircraft under evaluation by the RJAF), modern fire control systems, and WVR AAMs, thus putting the F-5 on par with more modern aircraft in terms of electronics. Despite this, the F-5s lack a BVR combat capability.
the picture is showing a circular dish tilted upwards thus appearing oval. a dish can be steered mechanically, which you are unaware. a circular dish is appearing oval. see the picture carefully. the bottom is brighter than the top indicating that edge is closer to the flash of the camera.
well, a lot of hostility here. is it because of the fact that you can’t find a single link to substantiate your imaginary claim of 2032 radar? if you’re so good at searching, why can’t you find the link to it?
Risasi just because seedlong is “foreign” does not mean he does not know what he is addressing. Information does not “segregate” as long as it is the truth.( If we go by your criteria that only nationals of a country know what’s going on within it then I might not have known my information as regards UG since I work for uncle Sam’s DNI and as thus am his solider not UG).And yes Entebbe airport is one that is well strategically placed that’s why there is more than just the UG airforce operating from there discretely. But UG has another airbase that it operates silently. There are certain people on this blog who really know what they are talking about (olekoima) and there information can be verified though it may not have been public and then we have some crazy lunatics who are just after chest thumping and spreading a lot of fabrication (and even if its for national pride that does not give you the justification to lie) that’s why I have been following silently and only paying attention to those that I think have some knowledge within this field. But we need to keep some good standards within the blog as regards the information that is dispersed. And now am afraid of what is to happen since now we got a west African among the contributors ( to be honest with you I can never accept any information given by anyone from this area even when we get tips in the office from this region I always ask who the source was and if they are local I advise every one to take this infor with caution until we can verify it ourselves. You can never trust a West African)
Hi
about the grenade explosion at Uhuru park last sunday, there are a couple of theories doing the rounds ;
the first and most prevalent one is that It was a false flag move on the part of the No camp to gain sympathy votes…, especially with the support and undue influence from Obama himself via his comments on the draft
the second one is that it was extremists from neighbouring somalia trying to make their prescence known
Third one is The yes camp , knowing that the no Camp will be suspected of such desperate acts, did it so as to further their already widening lead in public support by gaining the undecided voters and perhaps those from the no camp
The first one seems a bit too obvious to me, knowing how politics is more of a chess game
Second one Is also interesting in the sense that foreign extremists could be taking advantage of an already volatile situation
The third one too seems most plausible to me seeing as politicians tend to be very calculating
I hope I can get some takers on this…Ive been folowwing this post and Im assuming that a break from discussing F5s is more than welcome
Seedlong,
Frankly, it will be near impossible to get links on upgrades done by Israel on Kenyan air force jets if indeed there were any. Israel is such a closed society and it is even worse when it comes to matters military.
Uganda did upgrade her MiG 21 fighter jets in Israel sometimes back to MiG 21 bis and we only got to learn of this from sources outside Israel.
It is therefore possible as Risasi alleges above that some Kenyan jets might have gone for further upgrades in Israel.
Among the jets procured from Jordan, three are F-5EM. I don’t know whether it is these that Risasi is referring to.
While it is not entirely impossible that a 2032 radar can fit into a F-5 plane i am not aware if the same has been fitted onto a Kenyan plane although there has lately been a lot of contact and exchange visits between Israeli and Kenyan military top brass.
Separately, in 2008, Jordan aeronautical systems company(JAC) contracted Rockwell Collins of USA to upgrade the avionics of the 15 F-5 jets that were being sold to Kenya.Again no further details were given on the exact nature of the Upgrade. I am looking for the link and will post it shortly.
Risasi, don’t run away. Take over from here.
http://www.rockwellcollins.com/news/page10599.html
Olekoima
There ARE F-5’s with the EL/M 2032 radar which are in service with Chilean AF.
It even fits in the standard cone unlike APG-67 which is bigger and (according to published information) 30kg heavier, thus requiring an enlarged cone. Look up some pics on jetphotos.
But as I wrote earlier, APG-67 is a potent radar. It is essentially a modifed APG-66 which is an F-16 radar. The ex-RJAF F-5E’s were supposed to be fitted with APG-67 prior to being delivered to Kenya.
I would not see a reason why someone would replace an APG-67 with an EL/M 2032.
Also, Rockwell was supposed to upgrade the whole avionics package, not just the radar. Russian ECM and ECCM suits have never been very good to be honest, and export variants especially so. That’s why the Indian MKI has a mix of French, South African and Israeli avionics while Malaysians have essentially gone for French stuff on their MKM.
Su-30MK2 on the other hand, is a “basically basic” modern Su-30.
I assumed that an ex-RJAF F-5 would be slightly disadavantaged if you consider the radar only. But its state of the art ECM/ECCM package might in fact give it advantage. We also don’t know which version of the R-27 missile Uganda may get from Russia. While R-73 is a very potent WVR missile, all but the most recent R-27 versions have been considered inferior to AMRAAM. The big advantage of Su-30MK2 is that it can carry more missiles than the F-5, which allows it to employ the by-the-book Soviet tactics of launching two missiles within a 3-4 second interval.
Of course, if the F-5 shoots all its missiles, it cannot run away from the Sukhoi, and would become easy prey unless it can use landscape features to hide. A light fighter is a light fighter however good.
But all-in-all it is a tight game even 1-on-1, and a great deal depends on the pilot.
interesting stuff !
i once thot this blog died a natural death until i came here jana, everyone is still here i see plus new entrants too..
i thot momento introduced a new dimension with these but it seems no one took him seriously…… ” quite an interesting blog……am not a military man….but am so interested in the military instruments….am a computer scientist workin on a project of intelligent war machines….hopin 2 radically change the 21st century battle field scene….”
its time we also thot about it as security “experts”, and honestly i respect you all for ur technical knowledge, but start thinking cyber wars as well as this will be the next frontier…. ever heard of Cyber Command under Gen Keith b Alexander ? i.e there is a need to urgently adress cyber security and issues related to such scenarios esp WAR !
ur take major ?
microprocessor,
I would suggest you start with these three concepts:
– Network Centric Warfare;
– Effects-Based Operations;
– Swarming.
RAND monographs offer some good reading. You can try on their website.
Mugwiira,
honestly…… THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH !
You may not know just how much u have just leap frogged me. i have been crazy about security issue and esp in the world of ICT. i have been wondering for so long how ICT can be applied in the world of security/war in terms of battle order. thank man, thanx a mill !
honestly now that ppl are getting bored with the F5 issue (Risasai has been doing a wonderful job for long now on bringing us up to date and now you,), i believe its time to look at the sectors u have mentioned even if fr purposes of learning. am not a soldier by the way, but military “ways” facinate me a lot.
i believe these methods are already being applied even in developing countries ? am thinking soldiers using more than just GPRS systems or radio technology, a situation where ground soldiers can access latest infor/intel via special “combat ready” laptops even in combat status, without having to go back to Hq for updates, via extremely secure links… etc thus very small platoons being able to engage enemy units with zero tolerance to “guess work/estimation” at extremely “high” speeds while maintaining low loss rates of combatants……just thinking aloud !
thanx
http://www.govinfosecurity.com/articles.php?art_id=2608&rf=2010-06-04-eg
Thanks Mugwiira,
However, does the APG-67 radar also posses the BVR combat capability?
Of course it does unless there are some pilots out there who can spot an enemy aircraft 80-90km away.
Normally, engaging a target outside of about 25km would be considered a BVR fight.
I wonder how this BVR/non-BVR question came up here. Maybe I need to scroll up to the beginning of the thread. It appears someone confused F-5E and F-5A/B (the latter had no radar)..
yes, i find it odd that people think foreigners don’t have interest in africa. africa is a big and interesting continent. also i learn a lot with these discussions.
@olekoima
israel has done upgrades on indian mig21, harrier, su30mki, romanian migs. those information are well known. it’s not true israel doesn’t publish information. 2032 on chilean and thai f-5s is also well known.
the source who said uganda upgraded their migs with israel, who are they? could you please point me to their article? because the fighters they got were mig-21bis from poland. latest news is these bis are heading to russia for overhaul.
f-5em is claimed by people here to contain the isreali radar without any links/proof. this is the center of the discussion.
rockwell collins is a company based in states which specialize in other less crucial avionics in fighters. they don’t do fighter plane radars.
the apg67 mounted f-5 which the jordanians have are not bvr capable but in general apg67 can guide bvr missiles.
i find this blog boring now
anyway,i have noticed the f-5s from jordan are not noisy as the former wen it moves in supersonic speed.
Chinook i agree with you. that the F5 purchase from Jordan by Kenya which actualy triggered this long standing blogg has now gone stale.
we .NEED TO MOVE ON PEOPLE…and i have this suspicion that this seedlong blogger is not who he really is but someone ELSE trying to portray himself and may be a local masquerading as an American
This F5 discussion has lost colour and flavour.THE FACT is we need better up to date birds.PERIOD.
Anyway I SAW THE other day in the local media that the KENYAN military will soon surrender the 2.6 GIGAHERTZ communications spectrum back to the communications authority for re-sale to the public.
i do not think this is a wise move owing to the fact that communications will play a very big role in a conflict situation and as such it is a major asset. THEY SHOULD JUST KEEP THIS SPECTRUM FOR ANY FUTURE EVENTUALITIES.any ideas why they do not need this spectrum now?
spiderman,
technology is ever mutating !
for no military setup will not give up any technology that might still be important to them UNLESS a better one exists or is being rolled out. those of us in the ICT know that most of the technology we are currently using were ORIGINALY military …..
Infact, ever heard of CERN ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN), they have technology (e.g comps) that are even yet to be released in the “market” for use by whatever sector, what civilians use ceased to be used there many years ago. consider that some technologies originally found in jet fighters were sold to motor vehicle companies and are now incorporated in vehicles.
think along those lines !
(on a lighter note: there is a Kenyan “Dr.” employed at CERN !!!!!!!)
This BVR/non-BVR dichotomy which keeps coming up in this discussion goes back to the times when the only truly BVR missiles used semi-active radar homing, and needed the aircraft’s radar to be able to operate in continious wave (CW) mode to illuminate the target.
Modern BVR missiles like AIM-120 or R-77, though, have a terminal radar seeker themselves. The only thing needed is a data link between the aircraft and the missile to guide the missile in its early in its flight; the later the terminal seeker is employed the less time the target has to react.
The data link is not a function of radar operation. Thus, for example, any F-16 with any version of APG-66 radar can be upgraded to launch AIM-120.
The same goes for APG-67. It would be weird, though, if the ex-RJAF F-5’s upgraded by Rockwell did not already have the data link.
Then, the Lockheed Martin prospectus expressly states that the latest APG-67 version, APG-67(V4) has been tested with BOTH datalink and old-style SARH BVR missiles. I’m not 100% positive, but I think the same goes for V3.
For some strange reason my comments here won’t post if they have url’s. Otherwise I would’ve given you the link. You can google up on the lockheedmartin site yourselves, of course.
Anyone knows which exactly APG-67 version these ex RJAF F5’s have?
P.S. Even if these F-5E’s are just a stopgap measure, what would happen if war breaks out tomorrow?
So ive been ignored huh?
we mainly discuses about military matters on this page
I didn,t log off Olekoima, I don’t see any matter for discussion . I find this guy fake, he is posting are based on our local African times and his language doesn’t tally with where he claims to be from.
Anyway Congratulation seedlong you finally moved you fingers and open a webpage. Assuming that Lockheed Martin tilted the radar dish when photographic it (I wonder why they would do that). take extra efforts to look behind the radar. you will see an oval metallic support structure which fits into the F-5. next assignment use Google search to acquire information on the capabilities of the F-5EM and the Uganda MiGs upgrade. Jordan had upgraded its F-5 to the EM series. The EM comes in BvR
Secondly read before you post whats the meaning for this:
………….the apg67 mounted f-5 which the Jordanians have are not bvr capable but in general apg67 can guide bvr missiles.
………….uganda upgraded their migs with Israel, who are they?
………you can’t find a single link to substantiate your imaginary claim of 2032 radar? .its you who can,t find the link . we know don’t need a link. we have the F-5EM. we are not answerable to anyone one on what or how we upgrade them..
Risasi, I’m kind of confused. I assumed Jordan, as initially planned for Indonesia, had their F-5E’s upgraded with a US radar and US avionics before selling them to Kenya.
However, you insist they were upgraded to the F-5EM standard. That is interesting, not only because it would be a departure from the original plan, but also because the F-5EM that is known to me was a Brazil-only joint Embraer/Elbit project. The Chilean F-5E with an EL/M 2032 radar and Elbit avionics is known as “Tiger III” or “Tiger +”.
If indeed Kenyan Tigers (or some of them) are Elta/Elbit-upgraded, they would need a designation of their own. Maybe F-5EM-K?
The Brazilian F-5EM have performed very well during Red Flag exercises. However, there is something which may be a cause for concern. It’s the fact that the 2032 package, for cost reduction purposes apparently, does not include AIM-120 integration; the Israeli actively-guided missile, Derby/Alto, has no datalink and cannot compare to AIM-120 or R-77 on range. Even though in practice – to this date – most BVR missiles are still fired from WVR ranges, a Su-30 with R-77’s would have a serious advantage over a Derby-equipped fighter.
You may wonder whether Ugandans will indeed pay for R-77. The rumour has it that the guys were almost crying that “ze Russians” wanted to sell them “too many” missiles.
the only link which you have been able to find is the lm link. if you are not answerable why did you provide that link? i know you like dreaming about imaginary radars, but you also just brazenly copy the brazilian em designation and apply it to kaf. you’re one a kind risasi!
can’t you understand apg67 is a bigger radar meant for the f-20. even f-20 is oval!
The new unit was larger than the original Emerson unit of the F-5E, which required changes to the bulkheads in the nose area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark
happy?
the meaning of that has been posted several times along with the link, unlike you who pulls out stuff outta nowhere. and the funny thing is it is you who is claiming some pretty unbelievable stories without links, and resorting to immature name calling when comes questions your claim. the irony is unbelievable!
and now i’m not from the states because of my language? god! have you visited the u.s, or do you base your view of americans by watching hollywood flicks? if you people are so concerned about my location then all you have to do is check my ip by talking to the owner of this blog. that should close this meaningless side-discussion.
@mugwiira- a radar upgrade is done by the manufacturer for obvious reasons, not rockwell. although datalink and radar detection are separate in theory, you have to upgrade or modify the old radar to perform the datalink operation.
here’s something from apg66 on the f-16 ocu update-
An Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU) was developed to modify the APG-66 to use the AMRAAM missile. The OCU is designed to provide the radar with the necessary data link to perform mid-course updates of the missile.
avitopcom/interact/radar.htm
add a dot before com
seedlong,
Check Greg Goebel on vectorsitenet for the OCU details:
“At the end of Block 15 production an “Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU)” was introduced that featured the improved P&W F100-PW-220 engine, which was fitted with a “digital electronic engine control (DEEC)”; a bigger “head-up display (HUD)” built by Marconi in the UK; support for the AN/ALQ-131 jammer pod; a ring-laser gyro inertial navigation system (INS); some structural reinforcement; and wiring to support future avionics updates and the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range AAM (AMRAAM), then in development.”
“Wiring to support future avionics updates and the AIM-120” doesn’t sound like a huge deal, does it?
Rockwell Collins, btw, are secured comms specialists.
I see no problem absolutely with an APG-67 on an F-5E. APG-67 even fits in the Pampa and the Korean A-50.
There’s more details on the APG-67 at f20acom. The difficult part with the F-20 was to find space for the CW illuminator (check on the same site), which, as I mentioned before, is standard on APG-67(V4), and not a big issue anyway when you have missiles with terminal active seekers.
I feel like you’ve reached the stage when you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you are tired of discussing KAF F-5’s, suggest what may replace them in the future.
For me, I’m hungry for details on the supposed F-5EM-K!
Well Seedlong, you will also have to provide links yourself for the posts you make in the same way as you would like us to do so.
For the Ugandan upgrades in Israel here is a link. It is not the best link, but it will make do as i post a better one later.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=490398&page=21
thanks for the link olekoima! that bird symbol is indeed ugandas.
i’ve always have given links to backup my statements. and please make sure you demand links from me, like i do. that’s the best way to avoid confusions in discussions.
@mugiwiira- i’m surprised you think that way mugiwiira. i’ve known about the radar upgrades to support the aim-120. i dunno why the site omitted the radar upgrades. maybe because it’s a general page which covers various f-16 versions in a single page and hence misses out on some of the details. radar upgrades to fire the aim-120 is what i’ve always known.
here’s another site which confirms the same-
The aircraft are to Block 15 OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) standard, fitted with P&W F-100-PW-100 23,800 lb thrust fans and upgraded older AN/APG-66 radar. The OCU is an upgrade applied to older USAF and NATO airframes and FMS exports new build and refurbished, and involves the upgrading of the radar and the weapon system software, installation of higher performance fire control and stores management computers, installation of a data transfer unit and fitting a ring laser gyro inertial system, either a Honeywell H-423 or Litton LN-93.
The OCU upgrades to the radar include a facility to slave the seekers of the all aspect AIM-9P-4 Sidewinder to the antenna boresight for dogfight acquisition, and facilities for datalink control of Amraam and alternately, if fitted, can support a continuous wave illuminator for the AIM-7 Sparrow (or similar CW SARH missile).
the sites posted before omits radar upgrades to slave seekers to the aim-9 sidewinder. also the radar has to be upgraded to support the datalink control for amraams.
http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-TNI-AU-94.html
Mugiwiira
Its not necessary that upgrades get a dedicated series like EM-K . the EM series from Jordan weren’t as advance as the EM in Brazil but were similar in many ways, upgrades have to be made to fit search standards. the EM ISN,T blocked to brazil like what you see in F16 blocks. Is more of a type of upgrade feature. I will use my links to get you info. On the other clients how purchased the other batch of the Jordanian EM series. The bird are mentioned in KaF site
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Kenya_Air_Force
seedlong
seedlong, on June 17, 2010 at 3:31 pm Said:
…………………..thanks for the link olekoima! that bird symbol is indeed ugandas ….I think you should have a license for being such dumb and lazy. These are common information available in search engines. By the way whats your alibi on the oval support structure of the AN/APG-67 radar snd its BvR? For your information the tigershark was designed to look like a shark ,it had a flat nose. finally I see you have realized an American word “dunno” wish you the best. Not being answerable to you doesn’t mean I shouldn,t post websites at will. Does it? I don’t know what makes you so dumb and lazy, but believe me it really works!
in an online discussion you need to back you statements with links/references. that is totally oblivious to you isn’t it? or else your crap about aim-7 in the korean war along with lots of other nonsense will be taken as fact. and why did your will’ chose to post the link in the first place?
the nose of f-5g(which is f-20 during development) was bigger than a f-5e because of the bigger apg67 radar. the radome was bulbous/oval to accommodate the larger radar.
only later they changed the shape from bulbous to the shark type to improve aerodynamic performance, with the same apg67.
The F-5G-2 was the designation given for the version with the engine change and completely new digital avionics. To accommodate these avionics a new fuselage forward of frame 138 was required. This allowed the avionics bays to be rearranged, and provide a more bulbous nose with a much larger radome for the new radar.
Northrop had developed a radome for the F-5E that improved the aerodynamics compared to the F-5G, and this had the same shape as a shark’s head. So the appearance combined with the name of the F-5E suggested the name Tigershark for the aircraft.
http://www.f20a.com/f20desig.htm
MAZEE…. huyu jamaa ni mdeadly. wachaneni nayeye. ..facts zake ni kali.sana …hamtoboi..just give him what he wants na hi story ya F 5 ZA KENYA iishie….lets discuss something else ..no bad feelings wazee.
the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Covert action on all spheres is the mainstay of the Kenya Armed forces. Thats what has kept us conflict free among bandit neighbors thus far. If it wasnt for western sabotage the T – 72 deals wouldn’t be public knowledge either. I dont get all the technical hullabaloo, whichever radar we use 1 thing is clear we do have BVR capabilities. This issue came up from the SU 30s Uganda acquired and questions as to whether we KAF can mount an adequate resistance to them. From what ive read above we either have the apq 67 something of the ELM 2032 both of which from general agreement are capable of launching BVR missiles. I suggest this issue dies off.
No D you do not have the BVR. The lying that is going on to try and prove otherwise is exactly why this particular topic has dragged on for so long. Lets stick to the facts and stop creating an imaginary arsenal so that one nation looks better than the other.
yup. as tororo said, you can’t do that. when you neglect evidence and assume stuff outta the blue, it’s the start of confusion in a discussion. why should the absence of evidence only favor your wish and belief? it can also apply to others. the su-30s which your neighbour has are equipped with newer BARS while published n001 radar is just a cover. the evidence for this claim? ‘the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence’. plus those su-30s are equipped with the latest rvv-sd. the evidence for this? like you said ‘the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence’!
i’ve been low reading this blog but i’ve got to come outand say ou people are making this blog boring. Seeflong, the Kenyan military is secretive, they posses bomb disposal robots no one knows about (see army day videos gn. Kianga in controll of one) this is to show you that not everything the Miliary of Kenya has can be proved with links. Links can be misleading esp in the cae of wiki where everyone can edit anything as long as you posses he know how. Risasi, me on soldier. i thought you had gained experience dealing withthe likes of spartan and Tororo(who now claims to work for uncle sam from some top secret base in entebbe, hehehehe) let’s move on to other things e.g. isn’t Kenya seriously challenged in the field of tactical air transportation? our DHC-5’s are old and of low capacity. shoul a war break out will the 20 para, delta, CDU and now rangers have enough transport to satisfy the war effort? years back there was talk of replacing them is the effort still underway or have they abbandoned those plans?
seedlong just because you say you are from America doesn’t give you the right to be a know it all and expect us to swallow all you opinions hook, line and sinker. you may have your say in things and thats respected, but dont insult our intelligence by feeding us with all this “give me the links crap”. If i tell you our MBTs are fitted with teh latest laser guiding techno you still are going to dispute it just because there are no links supporting it. there are plenty of things past present and future happening in the Kenyan Armed Forces that have been kept away from the public. Surely you are a smart guy, do you expect Kenya to just keep quite while a new threat emerges? We have to act to cover ourselves and if the bandit king west of the border tries anything him and his mercenary pilots will be in for a real surprise. Kenyan Uniforms have tried to inform you the best way they can. these are the horses’ mouths so to speak yet you do not accept. I suppose there is nothing we can do but agree to disagree on this and hope an opportunity doesn’t arise to prove you and Tororo (by the way hi nice to see you found your voice) wrong. Fact we have BVR, Fact we are Better that UG or any other army in the region in all matters combat related id like to see you provide links saying we are not.
PS your time codes on the blog put you far far away from USA. In fact by at least half a globe distance. What are you doing in a CAT timezone? whose kidding who here?
sheesh. after all that! i’m sure i’d be hearing the same thing if i was talking to an ugandan. saying how superb and awesome his military is with lot of secret stuff. what differentiates facts from fiction is proof.
if you’ve checked out the time zone properly, you’d have noticed i post during work. i thought i was already though this nonsense. go the blog owner and ask him to check my ip. that’s the one solid proof which would prove where i’m from. what’s stopping you people from asking him my damn ip if you’re so concerned about my location. are you afraid it would shatter your imaginary opinion about where i’m from?
Hey jasiri the DNI’s office is not in Entebbe (where did you even get that?) or anywhere in Africa. We have people who feed it information from there and we send people there to verify it. What you should have asked yourself is what the DNI is?
D’ I still insist that Kenya’s army is a “peace time” army just like every body else non Kenyan or the ones who are not trying to delude themselves knows. Why else would you have a thread on this blog that is debating how ready your infantry is to face the battle hardened UPDF? The military experts around the world who rank the UPDF infantry ahead in the region are not foolish. All this is best on training, weaponry (including technology), but most importantly execution (or more so the success attained) and it is this lack of “experience” that the Kenyan army lacks and will therefore won’t be ranked higher than the UPDF ( and we have already gone through this discussion about the rankings so no need to go back but for those who disagree with it I wonder what the C.I.A has to gain by ranking UPDF higher in the Region?)
Tororo,
You should’ve posted this one on the “battle hardened UPDF”-whatever page.
If, however, you have anything to say abt the air power balance in East Africa, you’re welcome.
CIA!!!you trust the CIA!!!?FYI these are the same dudes behind the bay of pigs debacle, MK Ultra and your ill fated march to the Congo. We going around in circles with this debate. I posted hard facts on military hardware and numbers some time back you didnt bother to reply. Yet here you are with talk of having better technology and execution!!! What technology?What execution?
Remember when your people accidentally armed an AA missile? You couldn’t shut it down, who is it that you called?….Yep you know the answer to that. This peace time army’s covert action has kept your rag tag band of ill disciplined thugs from even thinking of invasion all those years. Your officers are trained here at our military academies. You know and i know we are better than you will ever be. It is funny that it took some dubious seedlong character to make you find your voice again after you had been beaten black and blue on this blog.
Seedlong i dont have to check you IP, the fact that you ask me to tell the blog administrator to do it shows how shallow thinking you are. Dont you know he cant reveal such matters even if he wanted to. Am sorry you have to work the graveyard shift while most of your country men are fast asleep. You want facts? Read the blog from the top counter the order of battle given, covert strike plans and every other bit of info. BVRs will not change the course of war if UG decides to attack Kenya of vice versa. Those SU 30s will not take off. period. Hinging your hopes of a victory on 6 mercenary flown birds is clutching at straws mate.
Oh my God! Tororo, you still claim that the UPDF is a battle hardened force and that Kilo Alpha is a “peace time” army. I really wonder where you live but my worst fears have just been confirmed by your persistent denial of the most obvious facts- that the Kenyan military is far,far superior in all aspects as compared to the so-called “battle hardened” UPDF.
I really wonder how many of your boys in uniform can successfully go through the NYS boot camp at Gilgil let alone RTS Eld or KMA Lanet. My good guess is that more than 90% would drop out on the first day after meeting the drill sergeant.
Let me simplify the matter to you while leaving anything to do with hardware out for now. Military discipline is a vital component for any force worth its salt.This is one area where your “battle hardened” colleagues have a clear disadvantage. I would suggest to you that you should make available to them Machiavelli’s 27 Rules of military discipline before you call us a “peace-time” army. Have you ever seen our boys taking part in a drill? The way soldiers dress,walk, march and even handle their individual weapons tells you alot about their level of training and preparedness or readiness for battle.
Rewind to December 12,2004 – 40th anniversary of our independence- Trooping of the Colours by 20 Para. I wish you were there as the rare spectacle of precision marching would have changed your mind that we are a peace time army. It was simply a sight to behold as the boys under the command of Lt. Col. D.R and Maj. Ra….put on a spectacular show that left the Nairobi crowd asking for more amid wild cheers. I then fully understood about D Coy and realised that if it’s made up of such boys with nerves of steel, then it would be naive to all them a peace time army. Let me not talk about the underwater sea machines as Tororo might not know what a naval force is.
Now to hardware matters. I think we should stop debating on the kind of radar that our birds have. Let Tororo and his brothers try anything sinister with their Su-30’s and they will realise what it is to have a shot fired at you in anger.Gentlemen, you will vividly recall that we first wanted to acquire some ex-Saudi F-5E’s and had even inspected them and selected some before they were gobbled up by the Brazilian Air Force. We finally managed to get the e-RJAF birds in good time because the Phillipines was equally interested in getting them. Ask yourselves why would a country operating the Mirage 2000 would be interested in the F-5E. CAPABILITY, CAPABILITY of the F-5E is beyond dispute.
http://www.defencetalk.com/…/philippines-air-force-admits-no-fighter-jets-until-2011-a-4374-9/ –
maneno sasa is at the EM series or the TigerIII. they know what it can do with exp. pilots. the question is how many were upgrade to that status. 3 out of 15 were of EM series. the EM has proved itself in Brazil. they don,t need any other fighter for other 5 yres or so
To Seedlong The silly person’s idea of a clever person .have you wonder way people get uneasy around you when somebody tells you to be yourself ?………that’s the worst advice give to you buddy.
you post ridicules postings like BvR wouldn’t be BvR if fitted to F-5. and what cant be found on web pages dosn,t exist. A lot of items have been done and are not documented on web site as D has said. This is not the first time this radar has been used on an F-5. It clear that you aren,t happy on the issue of the 2032 in Kenya and its nothing to do with a weblinks or the sort it’s a personal issue. Unfortunately We don,t tell webmaster to publish what we have they do it for their audience. You may post silly comments and argue silly but that wouldn’t fool me. You are really silly. I have dismissed you.
P/S About I.P address it can be masked to appear you are in a different area. Try anther one. Your etiquette and language betrays you man.
Tororo after a good blog debate they finally posted you to America. You now work for DNI? This blog is getting interesting.
To TORORO you say the Uganda military is …………………………..All this is best on training, weaponry (including technology), but most importantly execution………… T-54 and used mamba apcs (discarded during the apartheid regime) are what you are referring as technology or what else do you have ? don,t worry I don’t ask for links
OH OH …someone should tell TORORO that those mambas are actually nothing but glorified cash in transit vans. which can be used for riot crowd control.VERY EFFECTIVE during those the apatheid era in CROWD containment .DEPLOY THESE against Kenya in a war situation and see how they will be blown apart.
it is amazing that someone who claims to work for the DNI can show such open backward luck of basic knowledge on MILITARY situations in EAST AFRICA.
May be seedlong can help him with links showing that kenya is the predominant power in the region with a trillion shilling economic budget for next two years alone.
hahaha. you think i’m an ugandan? is it what this is all about D?
it’s my ip man. it’s MY IP! it’s only unlawful when i don’t like it to be given. but since i’m ok with it, it doesn’t break privacy laws. and are you aware my country has different time zones? graveyard shift? you call mornings graveyard shift?
if there is a war between uganda and kenya, then i only support the defender, not the aggressor who initiated the war. the reason i’m here is for f-5. please don’t drag me into a kenya vs uganda online war.
@Risasi. dude, you’re a fanatic. just because you like something to exist doesn’t mean it has to. you’ve living in your own world that is immune to logic and facts. i bet you even think kenya has nukes since everyone has it, but won’t say it out loud because it’ll make you look silly. and this isn’t personal one bit!
my ip can be masked? wth? i don’t even know what it takes to mask an ip. this is getting really frustrating!
well fine, ok, lets assume i’m “masking” my ip, then check my first posts before this whole “where are you from” nonsense started. that should prove my location!
SEEDLONG…why are you so sure that the F5 s kenya acquired are not what they are ?..and i find it interesting that a so called american is spending hours trawling the net keen on finding about KENYAN FIGHTER planes.
YOU can dazzle the kids next door with your links but the disposition of your language and communication skills give you away.WACHA UPUZI BWANA.ndege zetu ni poa.
there are countless ways of masking your IP mate i wont get into most of them. With all your talk about wanting links i guess you know how to google. Bottom line is you are not Kenyan Uniform, you aren’t even in this continent so if guys with first hand info give you facts and you keep on disputing them too bad i don’t see why you are so interested in our modest airforce and its capabilities anyway. There are more interesting debates going on in the WWW that are more relevant to your interests. Russia’s new bird that is reputed to have the ability to kick the F-22 raptor’s behind shamelessly. Or China’s dominance of the defense industry. Analysts predict in a couple of years you guys will be the ones making clones of their products. So please spare us the BS and tell us why you are so engrossed in our business. Why not the India vs Pakistan blogs they are pretty healthy too.
what do they have, is the question. and is it a crime for an american to learn how his country’s creations are doing across the world? not to mention i’ve always had an interest in africa.
my language again? do i need to address people as ‘wassup yo bitches’ to prove i’m an american? haha. looks like hollywood and rap music is really projecting a bad image for this country. not to mention, how can you ppl even think of classifying 300 million people under a single stereotype? this is insane!
that’s what i’m saying, check my ip prior to this whole non-issue of where i’m from started.
pak-fa is dead meat when it meets the raptor. it doesn’t have sufficient stealth when compared to the f-22 because part of it’s engines is exposed. and even if those engines are covered by radar blockers as speculated by russians, they will still be inferior to f-22’s s-shaped duct. and when it comes to aesa, we are the best!
china is still reverse engineering russian and israeli projects. that itself shows how much backward they are to us. their reverse engineered jet engines are also not doing good. but their future growth cannot be dismissed.
pakistan is at a loss. it is playing a dangerous game for which i hope it will pay the price soon.
they are getting 18 jets from us, but that is inadequate compared to iaf’s soon to be 200+ mkis. also those 18 f-16s cannot engage in a war with india unless we give the go ahead. the technicians and maintenance staff are our boys to prevent leakage of tech to china.
i know what’s going on and my interest is broad enough to cover africa.
not you too? as previously said, check my ip prior to this whole non-issue of where i’m from started.
pak-fa is dead meat when it meets the raptor. it doesn’t have sufficient stealth when compared to the f-22 because part of it’s engines is exposed. and even if those engines are covered by radar blockers as speculated by russians, they will still be inferior to f-22’s s-shaped duct. and when it comes to aesa, we are the best!
china is still reverse engineering russian and israeli projects. that itself shows how much backward they are to us. their reverse engineered jet engines are also not doing good. but their future growth cannot be dismissed.
pakistan is at a loss. it is playing a dangerous game for which i hope it will pay the price soon.
they are getting 18 jets from us, but that is inadequate compared to iaf’s soon to be 200+ mkis. also under written obligation, those 18 f-16s cannot engage in a war with india unless we give the go ahead. the technicians and maintenance staff are our boys to prevent leakage of tech to china.
i know what’s going on and my interest is broad enough to cover africa.
Seedlong,
FYI, this “because part of it’s engines is exposed” stuff is not correct. PAK-FA (now officially T-50 btw) uses a novel radar blocker with flexible vanes. If it lacks in the VLO, that’s probably where side/lower fuselage is concerned.
There are areas of course where the T-50 is lacking. Especially the engine. “Article 117” is cr@p, and there is still no better alternative.
But let’s not discuss “T-50 vs F-22” here..
As for the Chinese, their design capabilities may be even more backward than you may think. However, they are very determined. And they don’t only reverse engineer, they also buy other people’s designs. J-10 is an Israeli design (IAI Lavi), and JF-17 is a Russian design (MiG LFI derivative).
Btw, I believe JF-17 may be a reasonable option for SSA countries, Kenya included. But definitely not with Chinese avionics, better buy French or Israeli.
D and spiderman what I mentioned above is the criteria that is used to determine the rankings of the army and for all sub Saharan armies, technology is less of a factor and that’s why it comes down to training and mission execution (and stop with we train UG officers because there are Kenyan, TZ and even Nigerian officers in UG cadet schools). All African armies are mostly graded on their experience of which the Kenyan army has next to none unless if you are to take Kenyan ace version of marching as experience (Lol).
Risasi go back to the time I got on this blog what would ….when I travel through Kenya…. Indicate? Or you could check my time posting. I wonder when people like you risai will stop with your fascination with the west. Concentrate on building Africa and please “get your heads out of the sand” as regards superiority in E.A. Kenya had ‘IT’ in the 80’s and you naively threw it away and I don’t think the other E.A nations are ever going to let you have it again. We all know who the west now favors in the region and it is tearing up some of you.
TORORO..the days we needed favours from the west are long gone.JUST LOOKT at the recent BUDGET estimates for each of the three east african countries for 2010/2011 and you will see that we KENYANS do not need the west.we shall finance the economic activity with mostly local resources and we can rapidly finance any military escalation with ease.INFACT we have reduced our military budget by 1.5 billion this year because we feel the threats in this region are properly covered even after the guys next door have bought the su30.
Spiderman, so have the other nation’s budgets. Its only Rwanda with a projected deficit and Burundi that may depend mostly on Donor funding So nobody is really begging anyway
If you are in pursuits to please the west at this time then you are a little late to late pal. The cold war is over. Egypt won with flying colors and benefited from both sides.wake up. The new alliances between the west against the al Qaeda. Update yourself.
About Kenya kids in Uganda schools. ask yourself why aren,t the Uganda kids filling up the empty spaces in those school?
@ Tororo
Yeah its clear who the west favors, its evident on this blog too. But the west will never help you. They have never helped africa ever!!40 years of neo-colonialism brought us nothing but civil strife and handpicked puppets who stand by as your resources get stolen. The west is the biggest beneficiary to african despotism and corruption. Why do you think they are so eager to do business with you now? The same reason they were so eager to commit genocide in Iraq. Oil cash Tororo open your eyes and smell the pollution. Nothing has changed in UG same old M7, with his cronies in power. At least china and other eastern bloc countries are development partners they stand to gain but with them the relationship is symbiotic. They get something, you get something. Dont even make me laugh about you saying you can overtake us the budgets were read barely a week ago. Deny this UG Budget+TZ budget+Rwanda+3/4 Burundi budget = Kenya Budget. Economic muscle. Our debt per citizen is lower than what US owes china alone per citiizen. If you are too dumb to understand this am sorry but you really need to increase budget allocations to your education sector, if you can…oh wait, your president spent it all on 6 jets which you cant maintain and/or afford to train ugandan pilots to fly them for the next 4 years. Tororo i suggest you shut up coz i have you number any day any time. WE are superior and before the arrival of those SU 30s even you acknowledged that. If you were uniformed you would realize that 6 jets dont win wars. US had hundreds and hell war in Afghanistan and Iraq aint over yet. And beleive me you are no US and we are no Afghanistan.
Now to more worthy opposition, my dear seedlong, sup dude?howz it hangin?….listen i dont care where you from, what you do or anything about T-502s vs F- 22s. That doesnt concern me. What i want to know is on what basis are you contesting our ability to defend ourselves against potential enemies. Whats your experience on the aviation field, Marine?Airforce?….blogger?Dont give false hopes to our Ugandan friend. I suppose since your country has been taking part in a war every decade you guys should have been unstoppable in vietnam, panama, gulf 1 and 2 and Afghanistan. But experience isn’t everything hollywood over emphasizes the heroics of american forces. Thats a fact. I am in uniform. I have trained with SAS in the dirt bushes and earned my green berret through sweat and blood. Ive been in the shit as you call it covertly and overtly and not once did i meet Chuck Norris out there. I put it to you man for man a grunt from D coy is as good if not better than the elitest of the elite in Delta force. Anyway the F-22 is a cash cow for lockheed, the T-50 costs 1/3 less. that means for every F-22 that flies the russians can put out at least 2 T-50s. I doubt you can survive a war of attrition of this sort. Same situation right here in East Africa. At most UG has 15 combat worthy aircraft in its hangars including 6 SU 30s some Mig 23s and Mig 21s. We fly 33 F-5s. Together with our superior logistics organization and higher mobility really their infant airforce will not be a factor in an all out conflict. I suggest you find a worthier cause for your cyber charity. Being on Tororos side is a waste of your time.
Giving false hope to a Kiwaani Nation is plain dangerous.
You’re 200% right, D.
Oh and seedlong does not have to take what you tell him cause some of it is total BS. Let’s stick to the facts I have always said. (Oh by the way there is a gentleman here olekoima told me that there are people who post “out of this world” scenarios and it is up to you to tell what is the truth.) Just because some one is in kenya and they claim to be in the army does not mean they will be giving you the absolute truth
MR DNI so what is your point?TELL US how you think UG army can move into kenya and win a war …give us hard facts …
Spiderman war is unpredictable that’s what I have always said and even with extensive planning and power things can still change (Iraq, Afghanistan). If war broke out, the outcomes may be very different from what everyone envisioned. My point is to let everyone know you can not chest thump and proclaim victory just because you march better at military parades
D you got your own Ass on that my friend. Speaking of education why are there so many Kenyans in Ugandan schools? You should have gone to school there for you to understand that a budget also should be in correlation to a nation’s poulation – idiot (I will always call a spade – A SPADE). Your army ain’t S*@# and you ain’t S*&^ . stop with the F*%# denial. It won’t make it better or change the situation as it is. The west is simply siding with the strong and that’s how they have always operated. When you were stronger in the 80’s they sided with you, now they only lecture you on what you should doing. LMAO
TORORO… the reason we have about 40 thousand Kenyans in ugandas education system is because our secondary schools are channing out so many eligible candidates such that our 10 public universities cannot take them all in.
REMEMBER we changed our system in late 80s such that our graduates come from 8 years primary,4years secondary,then 4years university. WE did away with the 7,4,3 system.65% OF al students from Kenya in the Ugandan system are those that failed to make it into the highly compatitive Kenyan system such that they go to Uganda for the two years high school education as a stop gap measure then seek greener pastures elsewhere.MY figures may be wrong but tell me which other country in EAST AFRICA produces every year over 270 thousand primary education graduates ,then another 150 thousand secondary education graduates ,then over 20 thousand university/college graduates every year?
About Kenya kids in Uganda schools. ask yourself why aren,t the Uganda kids filling up the empty spaces in those school?
TORORO,
here are some numbers for you to crunch..IN 2008 there were 705000 thousand certificate of primary education graduants in kenyan schools.OF THESE 493000 THOUSAND GOT ADMITTED INTO secondary education the remainder over 200000 got absorbed into private insituitions and others found there way to study elsewhere like uganda. due to competition AND lack of space.
IN 2009 THOSE FIGURES ROSE by 15 % .The point is that the rate of developement is so rapid that there is no comparison with UG.
TORORO
FURTHER more kenya has over 90 %literacy level amongst males over 15years and 79% with females of same age group
WE are ranked 128 in the world index with over 85.1 % literacy while uganda is ranked 164 with literacy lkevel of 66%.
NEED i say anymore?aaa dont forget these are 2003 figures and am sure we are doing much better.
I noticed that there was an issue of F-5E’s thrust-to-weight and wing loading on this thread which was not fully resolved.
This is a fact: on high sub-sonic and lower supersonic speeds, F-5E is probably the most manouverable fighter aircraft TO DATE.
Wing loading parameters are only useful when you compare aircraft of similar aerodynamic design. F-5’s aerodynamic configuration allows for very powerful wing mechanization, which reduces manouver speed.
Higher manouverability reduces kinetic energy loss, thus less thrust to compensate. The rate of climb is still worse of course, but in practice, most dogfights tend to be in horizontal.
After the collapse of South Vietnam, one F-5A was captured and brought to the USSR where it took part in mock fights against MiG-21’s at the Vladimirovka AB. The F-5A won ALL engagements, even in VERTICAL, which forced the Mikoyan engineers to introduce aerodynamic upgrades to the MiG-21. None of these upgrades, however, could stand up to F-5E which has a larger wing and more powerful engines than F-5A.
That doesn’t mean that F-5 was a better design than MiG-21. The latter with its delta wing was, like the Mirage, designed to serve as both a fighter and an interceptor. The F-5 was a born dogfighter.
But interestingly, near-subsonic manouverability is also one thing which matters for BVR engagements. Except when you face a 5th gen fighter with supersonic cruise; though in East Africa, that’s not a consideration.
But what I was really trying to show is that you can’t compare aircraft so simply.
And then, there are many more things which matter, such as missile versions/specs, tactical setting, weather, pilot skill etc.
So while we are trying to figure out whether the Su-30 deal goes through, I believe KAF should start war-gaming extensively to identify possible vulnerabilities and work out countermeasures.
I wonder however if the guys across the border will do the same. My concern is that these new toys may blind them and cause them to do smth stupid like they did in 1979.
Sorry, I meant “reduces time to complete a manouver” in Paragraph 3.
Mugwiira I doubt these planes were bought with Kenya in mind. These were purchases made in accordance with the UG plan of modernizing its defense. And when you go to buy something new why spend on absolute technology if you can afford something better. So I don’t believe a war could break out unless some aggrieved people feel there is something for them to prove
Tororo,
Military planning starts with identification of threats. Then you determine the capabilities required to counter these threats. Only then do you decide on the equipment you need to attain the necessary level of capability.
A “threat” does not only mean an “existential threat”, but also a “threat to interests”.
You do not buy Su-30 to counter insurgency threats such as LRA or ADF, you have light combat/trainer aircraft and attack helicopters for this purpose. Neither do you buy it to provide for air defense in case of aggression, in which case an F-16, a MiG-29 or a Mirage is absolutely sufficient.
Su-30 is a heavy multirole two-seater fighter with a range of 3,000 km. Aircraft like Su-30 or F-15 are only owned by handful of nations which are considered regional powers. They need to project power far beyond their borders where their interests lie.
Either Ugandan leaders have no idea what they need, or they consider their country a “forward-leaning” regional power. When a nation procures heavy strike fighters, every prudent military planner would assume that its military objectives have changed.
This is a complete game-changer as far as the region’s strategic landscape is concerned. All of Uganda’s neighbours would now need to adjust their force planning accordingly.
This is why Western donors are worried abt the Sukhoi deal, not because they are stupid, or because they want Uganda to be defenseless.
“I doubt these planes were bought with Kenya in mind” – national security is not based on assumptions. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
@Mugiwiira
oh, so that stuff about the radar blocker completely covering the engines is confirmed?
the s-shape inlets can attenuate the incoming em waves much more efficiently than a radar blocker because of repeated reflections in the duct.
the chinese future growth cannot be underestimated. they now have tons of money in their disposal afterall. we’ll see how their j-xx comes out.
@D- haha. good one brotha!
please, don’t drag me into the war. i’ll not take any sides here. i hope there is peace between you two. why can’t you two just get along. it’s not like your enemity is historic in nature right? like the blood feud between israel/palesntine or india/pakistan. and it’s a pleasure meeting someone like you.
it’s not a cash cow. out here when you pay more you get more, simple as that. theirs may be cheaper, but i wonder how much they can afford. we are the world’s largest economy afterall. they simply don’t have the much needed hard cash to compete with us.
seedlong what betrays your camouflage are two main things
1.. The path that leads to this blog is seclusively and narrow. This is a small blog for somebody to stumble into. This blog is not advertised on web banners. To get here you must have precisely searched for information pertaining Kenyan F-5, Kenya or Uganda militaries. or somebody seconded you here. You had a dedicated mission in mind. Nothing more. Most members will agree that, thats how they arrived here. This is not a broad discussion on African militaries. don,t fool us by saying you were gathering information on African militaries. You came here with a precise mission . I would like you to Show us links on your previous contributions on other blogs that relate in African militaries.
2.when we talk about you wordings we are not referring to the use of slang words but to how you are arranging your words and sentences.
i don’t like calling you a fool but what’s my opinion against many.
i have talked about african affairs before like a passing commentary, but this is the first time i’ve discussed this much.
i came to this blog when researching about newest entrants, the india’s lca and pakistan’s jf-17. indias lca is supposedly fitted with the 2032 radar. but what lead me to this is blog are the critics of jf-17. the critics abbreviate that fighter as Junk Fighter since its JF. when i typed that hoping to find some indian pov on that plane, your blog was there on google.
my sentences? i dunno what’s odd. that’s how i’m i guess. and no body’s said that, except you.
seedlong, on June 19, 2010 at 10:31 pm Said:
i have talked about african affairs before like a passing commentary…………………………….simply show me the Links as you put it, where you posted this passing commentary.
“i came to this blog when researching about newest entrants, the india’s lca and pakistan’s jf-17” come on seedlong not again pakistan and india are in asia not africa buddy
are you this stupid or your making special efforts to be come one
i thought i said it was just a passing commentary. it was just passing quick comments on an im session.
as mentioned, i found this blog because of “junk fighter”. search that on google, your blog shows up.
man! your buffonery of trying prove something which i’m not is quite retarded. are you that much dense that you can’t even understand what it means to check my ip in the initial posts. btw, aren’t you the fag who hit on me by asking where i’m from, first. i can’t help but notice all this started because of that. i guess this is a lesson hard learnt for me- never give out personal details over the internet!
seedlong you are a pain and at this rate you risk being irrelevant to majority on this blog…just back of if you cannot say anything of value to our discussion
Risasi All this just because seedlong says he is in the US and not Kenyan or from E.A. all I see a guy who has put up legitimate questions. So I guess I would have gone with the same kind of scrutiny if I didn’t have a sign on that is recognized by people in Kenya. Let me tell you this there are people in the US who study world regions (geo, political and economic) so I would not be surprised if seedlong is one of them. Contrary to what you see on TV not every one is about Hollywood and Wall Street. Even an island as obscure as Vanuatu has an expert on it and they are American. So give him straight answers and stop diverting to where he is from.
@tororo- i think risasi have never left the cocoon. for him it’s all about kenya and it’s neighbourhood. so when someone says something which is contrary to kenya’s interest, that person is automatically labelled kenya’s enemy from the neighbourhood. if i was like him then anyone who says something bad about my country would automatically be a russian or chinese. but i’ve seen people even from our closest allies who don’t agree with us often. hell!! you don’t even have to cross the borders. we have plenty of bleeding heart liberals who love dissing our own military. it’s all here in America!
@bugman- last time i checked it was your pal risasi who was diverting the blog with the non-issue of where i’m from. next time atleast try to act as if you’re impartial when you call someone’s statements “irrelevant”.
Seedlong I don,t see any of your personal info in this blog. and if anything it was out of you own accord .no gun was pressed on your skull to reveal them. You keep on crying that we should check your initial i.p. what’s so difficult in masking that too? Dealing with you is like Rapping a woman who is very much willing. am done with you. lick you wounds and move on. I wouldn’t ask you any thing any more. If you wish you can stay and chat on stealth matter with Mugiwiira be our guest. if feel still want to continue and give a better fight its up to you. we constantly rub shoulders among countrymen and foreigners but we maintain respect. Most of the blog members are unhappy with the upgrade that has been done by our military and we argue it out but don’t disrespect each others. have a blessed Sunday and week
adios amigos
Tororo aka Mr DNI as SPIDERman puts it.
Hollywood, wall streets ,stereotype lifestyles where do they come in? in this blog. I merely asked him asked he to show his previous contribution in other blogs as he claim to be doing.
I have posted my comments in several blogs and if you ask me to show you I will. Its that easy. i will tell you the subject of the blog and the date I posted. It’s that simple. in the DNI you must have be taught or heard about i.p masking. Most terrorist cell uses them to send emails around the world. VPN – Virtual Private Networking. Its that simple
It seem that you understand Seedlong better then many of us or are you trying to recruit him for more fire power. its up to the both of you.. You feel like I am unfairly asking his authenticity and his proceedings. I actually can,t figger out head or tail of his postings. What do you deduce from the following sequential ?
seedlong, on June 16, 2010 at 4:36 pm Said:
yes, i find it odd that people think foreigners don’t have interest in africa. africa is a big and interesting continent. also i learn a lot with these discussions.
seedlong, on June 18, 2010 at 12:23 am Said:
in an online discussion you need to back you statements with links/references. that is totally oblivious to you isn’t it?
seedlong, on June 19, 2010 at 10:31 pm Said:
i came to this blog when researching about newest entrants, the india’s lca and pakistan’s jf-17
seedlong, on June 20, 2010 at 4:41 pm Said
as mentioned, i found this blog because of “junk fighter”. search that on google, your blog shows up
the list goes on whats you conclusions.
To Mugiwiira I got info. On who bought the other Jordanian EM series. Fancy a wild guess?
Thailand? Just a “wild guess”.
Risasi why would you assume that seedlong is masking his ip or even think of him as a terrorist targeting Kenya? Judgeing from his comments he does not seem to be spewing out the same rhetoric as al-shabab or even alkieda. So unless there is a new terrorist group with other motives against Kenya I would not think this guy is a terrorist.
And judging from one statement I can now almost declare that he is indeed in the US. -we have plenty of bleeding heart liberals who love dissing our own military – this statement tells me seedlong is between the age of30 – 55, white and most likely leaving in the mid west or southern states (seedlong you can tell me if am wrong on this. And one other thing without going off topic and debating issues that don’t pertain to this blog, I don’t think all liberals like to diss the military. I think everybody is proud our military but we are not proud of the people who sent them their. The military were simply following orders. And I also hope you are not a tea party activist)
Oh risasi – yea I do have a better job than you and you calling out mine is not going to make your crapy one better so get over it.
There is no better job than working to defend your own country….i dont know how you feel proud supposedly working for a foreign power and no one knows how and why you left your country in the first place…then landed this so called good job with the DNI.
The issue of i.p come up, as he was stating it as an alibi for verify his posting stations. Neither did I call him a terrorist. I was merely referring to articles that YOU might have pass through showing how its easy to mask and terror cell are just but examples. Go through my posting again if a need be. I don,t see how his age, tea party affiliations, color of skin fits in this discussion. lets LEAVE seedlong out of this. He regrets revealing his identity. he will CONFIRM if he still is interested in the discussion.If you feel you have a good job, then lucky you but just know its a God given attribute. my point was you seemed to know and understand him match better and faster. I have posted his comments above for you to expound more.
TORORO,RISASI….IT SEEMS VERY strange that a supposedly smart Ugandan who has a good job with the DNI cannot even spell the name of ONE global jihadist group correctly.who is kidding who?
Precisely Spiderman that’s what I have been talking about. Their language and posting times betrays them. Today he wakes up at 4am to make a point that he exits in a different time zone. Let him continue doing so as long as he doesn’t get tried. You are in the U.K Pat and at times we don,t share opinions on matters mbona I didn’t call you an imposter ? These people think that hii kazi tumeanza leo?
why would i mask my inital posts. am i a psychic who can predict a fag like you would ask for my details later on? if i’ve known you were a lunatic, i’d have never given out my location. besides, why is this even being discussed in the first place? this nonsense has got nothing to do with this blog. what you are is a loser who is spamming this blog just because your crap about your imaginary radar has been exposed.
what do you mean “following sequential”? you don’t even remember what you wrote? didn’t you ask how i found this blog? it shows up on google with those keywords, moron. and the rest are responses to your drivel. next time read with your eyes open. but then again the problem isn’t your eyes, it’s your head.
@tororo- this risasi guy is a complete jackass! he assumes stuff left and right without any proof to back it up. what’s worse i just discovered something really depressing. the guy who first brought out this whole 2032 radar thing was none other than this idiot. it seems i’ve been duped!
i better not confirm or deny what you wrote, not while there are lunatics around.
i ain’t a liberal, but i’m willing to accept that the secret wmd making mobile vehicles was indeed a scam either by iraqi defectors who gave that info, or by the government, or both. this is another lesson learnt for us- never take big decisions on flimsy proof! how very apt since this is whats going on in this blog- arriving at a conclusion with little or no proof.
Seedlong Don’t let this dude “work you”. There are some lunatics on the blog who ruin it for everybody else when they have a nice mature debate going on (usually when the crazies get off the meds I just follow the debate silently and sort the truth from the non truth. When I came out hard on them I was called cruel).
We don’t need to be mislead by the Iraqi curvelball’s of this world. Oh by the way am not a liberal either more of an independent
Raisi do you realize that the US has three different time zones? Secondly my point on tea party activists was directed at seedlong and not anybody else. And am proud of my Ugandan roots,(The reason I chose Tororo as a sign on other than some crazily made up name) they gave me the edge to get this job. Spiderman don’t even question my spelling of the terrorist groups if the fools themselves can not do it. You sometimes have them spell it as Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaida or even alkeida ( the al-qa being more common outside of the US) but either way every one knows who you are referring to regardless of the spelling used unless your boy scouts have a company with a similar name. And by the way I was never chased from UG like I said before am in the region once or twice every year and for less than $1000 get people to spill secrets. So yea I am proud of my job (don’t want to rub it in anybody’s face since someone says it is god that gives… but if someone feels offended by it and calls me out then….)
Tororo
your stupidity and level of ignorance never ceases to amaze me.FIRSTLY the USA mainland has 4 time zones and not three you idiot…plus 2 more for ALASKA time and the last one being HAWAII that is 1)easttern standard time(EST). 2)central standard time( CST).3)mountain standard time(MST).4)pacific standard time(PST) ,for mainland USA then the rest( AKST) alaska standard time then lastly Hawaii standard time(HST)
again for a chap working for an intelligence outfit your level of knowlege is very much wanting and i am almost writing you off into the dustbin ..and am now convinced you are another fake imposter….
RISASI
hawa jamaa ni mafala sana am sorry to say and am loosing my patience with them…
TORORO
SEEDLONG
MY apologies for souding off and calling you names but you can understand my frustration at your blatant display of basic facts wrongly…IF YOU cannot give precise information on the country you allegedly work for then that leaves room for massive speculation
IF this SEEDLONG is in the states WHICH TIME ZONE is he operating from?
THE 48 states of the mainland USA have time zones as shown earlier ie EST which is 5 hours behind GMT,then CST which is 6hours behind GMT,then MST which is 7 hours behind GMT AND lastly PST which is 8 hours behind GMT
what makes me wonder is your allegation that you can buy secrets with $1000 and if that is how you gather intel for your DNI boses then am sure you feed them lots of roughshod gathered from the streets with no value.NO Wonder you think UG can win WAR with kenya.
AM prepared to give seedlong some benefit of doubt…but for you…
WAKE UP man…am now on your case and lets see how far you can push me.
HEY does anyone know where is ole nkarei?may be too busy after the rumored promotion to big things?…brother we need some of your sanity inputs here …
@tororo- the risasi guy is a very weird one. i first thought he was a decent guy, but when he claimed aim-7 kill in korea, and i pointed it was wrong, he came back saying he “worded it wrong” or something. that was when i came to know about part of his loser personality. after that he just went ballistic on me calling names. this is one crazy guy!
@spiderman
there are also daylight saving time added to the time zones which are seasonal.
AM aware of that man SEEDLONG…. that .the daylight standard saving time only occurs twice a year..that is 2 a.m the fiirst sunday of April and 2 a m the last Sunday of
October.BUT this does not diminish or increase the basic time zones in the USA mainland.
BTW, I heard Jordan is also keen to sell their Mirage F1CJ’s. At abt 8mln per piece. I would think these may be okay for Kenya.
I was told Libyans in the 80’s didn’t care at all about the MiG-23’s their pilots were crashing almost daily, but spent a huge deal of money sourcing out spares for the Mirage F1’s despite the embargo.
Spain also has F1’s for sale, but these are upgraded and more expensive.
Just thinking aloud.
This quickly developed into a pissing contest. In the long run it doesnt matter, we who have the knowledge know new fighters are on the cards for the Kenya Airforce. Thats a fact that if anybody disputes despite NOT being in any site ill personally mozambique his/her sorry behind. Anyway JF-17s have been looked at and tested, F-16s block 50 or 52s have been mentioned on some documents and Mirage F 1s have also been touted for the job. God knows we can afford it. What is it that seedlong said about being a strong economy?….Thing is if E. Africa was the the world we would be china – economically. In the event of a war our own pilots (unlike others more accustomed to using mercenaries) are trained in flying more than the F-5 our economy allows us to quickly mobilize and acquire anything we need. Those f – 5s will in in less than 5 years time be relegated to a support role.
IF I was doing the buying for KAF ..i would go for the F15 strike eagle or the MIG35.
these would cover all threats in the region real or imagined…
no spiderman, it’s not twice a year. that’s not how daylight saving works. i guess kenya isn’t used to daylight saving. daylight saving starts from a particular date and ends in a particular date. the dates vary each year. also apart from mainland and alaska we own islands which are in both the oceans. in the pacific the islands are on both sides of the international time line.
@D- yup, money is the driving force in today’s world. and i hope kenya gets the tried and tested f-16s.
seedlong ..you could be wrong … because my understanding of this is that
daylight saving time is not observed in all the US territories but ONLY on the MAINLAND USA and a few islands..OTHERWISE DAYLIGHT saving time is NOT repeat is NOT observed in Hawaii,American Samoa, Puerto Rico,Virgin Islands,Guam,some parts of the State of Arizona ,part of the State of Indiana,
The Navajo Nation(Indian reservation) due to the fact that it crosses three different states also participates in part but not fully.
And as earlier indicated daylight saving time USED TO occur in April and October. prior up to year 2006 but from 2007 up to year 2015 the schedule will happen between march and November because it was moved forward by three to four weeks during spring and and extended by one week in the fall.
AND please be aware that although am a thouroughbread Kenyan ..am at the moment leaving and working in the EUROPEAN UNION .
yup! daylight saving is not applied everywhere. i was only talking about the different zones when referring to the islands since you left out the island time zones before.
regarding daylight saving, you said it does not increase the time zones since it only happens twice a year, while it does increase/add an hour from a particular date in march to a date in nov.
oh you’re in eu. nice!
my point was to let TORORO be aware that he cannot get away with obvious facts wrongly presented and that claiming to work for an inteligence agency on an open blogg like this one is a one way ticket TO thy kingdom come..and that there is no way he could not be aware that USA has more than three time zones if he was a genuine contender for a job in the DNI.Uncle sam does not tolerate this kind of clumsiness.
@spiderman
Yea a piece of shit in the UK or wherever is going to tell me how time is told in the US. Such a dick head. Why would any one be concerned with Hawaiian or Alaskan time zone ( if you are mentioning those territories the you forgot Puerto rico) there are three recorgonised time zones and for anything the EST is used as standard followed by the regional times for anything that is to be followed nationally. So don’t question my time telling shithead
GO SUCK YOUR own d… ass…ole and then read my post at 09.57 pm…and then crawl back to the hole you were chased from IN ug
i dont give a rats ass what you think of me because i know you are a flash in the toilet with an ego the size of pea.
it is clear you are a fake who is abusing uncle sums hospitality and since you have no substancial information to offer i will ignore your crazed half witted shenanigans and run of the mill exclamations .HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW the country you claim to work for…. ngombe hii infact i dont have to stoop much lower by going on with this exchange with you wanker.
Spiderman If you or your job were worth anything I would gladly stick out mine to prove it to you but I guess we all know that you ain’t shit.
i dont have to disclose to wankers like you what i do but i can tell you what you claim to be doing ..idid it for real between 1983 and 2005.
am now in the consulting business…and settled out of harms way because of what i know.
Being consulted by who butt plug? Its clear you are a mental midget with an IQ of a fence post. You were born stupid and I can see you are exercising your birth right. With such intelligence I don’t think they would even put you in charge of snake control in Ireland. If you were twice as smart you’d still be stupid.
Tororo, on June 22, 2010 at 12:42 am Said:
@spiderman
Yea a piece of shit in the UK or wherever is going to tell me how time is told in the US. Such a dick head
no no no no no not grammatically up right. Read it again please. it sounds like Chinese. Poor guy he has to wait until midnight to reply.
I can see MR DNi has graduated from Yes to Yea. FYI its “suck my dick head or suck your dick head” and not “go suck a dick head” he now posts in Ante Meridiem times to prove his location. Your former posting betrays you buddy. The only place you can get in the DNI is in the janitor room papaa. As for seedlong with an I.Q the size of a peanut I wouldn,t be surprised to see Breaking News “seedlong got ran over by a parked car”
Tuendele kwa lugha ya taifa na ki mombo tu wachane na hawa wapubavu. People don,t even know the time zone from where they claim to earn their bread and butter. Shida ni kwamba ndege zetu kuwa upgraded. Hiyo ndiyo kinacho wa uma sana
SpiderMan Mugiwiira & D. when you get a advance jet you will need to have a fast jet trainer like the alpha jet or a similar craft for your pilots. Otherwise you will be subjected to crashing. I think that’s what happened to Libya with the Mig23. huwezi toka kwa propeller to jet .uki agalia hata Britian they will go from the tucano halafu kwa Hawk (their advance trainer) then to fast jets. India tried without an advance trainer and they ended up calling the Mig21 “flying coffins”. Will soon hear this at our 9 oclock neighbors. For the F-15 I don,t think the usa can accept. The F-16 mimi huzi ita toys. MiG35 thumbs up any day. Lakini nafikiri they are still limited to india. Unless MiG29 upgrades which is still a fuel guzzer as for Tom I think alipata that extra stone ama baado?
HOW about the Tornado?
sija sikia offer ya Tornado uku have you?
NO.. news on tornado… was just
thinking that if one is shopping around then surely all options are open…so why not consider the tornado as well…am sure the germans and british would not mind selling of their old stock since they are all gunning for the EURO FIGHTER
the Tornado is mainly a bomber orientated bird. a squadron ok lakini fro air defense matters its not a good dog fighter. maoni yangu lets kill one bird with one stone tupate a popper fighter/bomber in that case MiG35or F-18 the new one called super hornet ni kiboko. as long as tuko na fighter pilot as CDR lets hope he will dedicate something nice. Pia walee wazee wame anza kupunguwa the rest guys akina Mwatete Tangai have a good military background. D vipi kwenu how is your CDR?
THE Tornado version F3 is true interceptor and heavy bomber as well.it can do mach 2.27 if configured for interceptor role.
THE RAF is retiring its last squadron in 2010/2011.
we can do with 12 of these such we can use for both attack and interceptor roles.
this blog is loosing its value with inclusion of other bloggers like seedlong and tororo,this is why i have gone mute for some time,can’t this guys lets go there mediocrity utterances and contribute in healthy discussions.
lots has been said about the KAF tigers,can anyone tell me if the KAF hawks 52 are still in operation or they were retired?
Tuwache mambo ya kuitana mamboro na mikundu hapa….kama mtu ametoka kuana TV akapata matusi wacha atafuta pahali pengine pa kujifunza kutumia hayo maneno. We are proffesionals gentlemen, tuonyeshe hawa mentally colonized american wannabe africans mahali werevu wetu umefika.
I think the JF – 17 is more of a fit for us. The F-16s are in my opinion overated, Id rather have them support the F-5 than vice versa. Remember in development they were rivaled by the F-20 which is an upgraded F-5. The general agreement is that the F-20 was a better plane all round and it only failed due to political reasons.
Chinook you are right about the advance trainers, the hawks 52s are still active in this department. They can also be used as a ground support/attack aircraft so that the F-5s take on a primary fighter role. Primary flying training is done on the tucano, before advance jet training on the hawk 52 and finally graduation to flying F-5s. Apart from that The best pilots are taken overseas to log in good hours on F-15s, F-16s and MiGs. Id like someone to ask me for a link on this.
Unlike most of our neighbours our pilots are combat certified right here at home. We don’t rely on mercenaries.
ha ha ‘D” mambo gani tena? ok kweli sisi ni ma professionals not guerillas in uniform. Kama alivyo sema D F-16 ili ina uzwa ama for export its not all that good. that why wapata Pakistani opted to develop JF-17 rather then buy more F-16. i personally feel an upgrade tiger hiko mbali na F-16 kwa mambo mengi.
chinook Hawk 52 kitu nyengine spare is in pounds. na pia kidogo ni mzee so flying them ovyo will bring unnecessary budget constraints. by the way the air chief Maj. Gen. Tangai was a former Hawk pilot. hatawacha zikuve hivi hivi.
we have see mambo mingi they was a time Ethiopians defected with their MiG23/21 we kept them in wajir FOB for some times the same pilots were willing to tells us the strong and weak points za MiGs. when i see guys bragging ati they have acquired MiG23 mmh i just laugh.
do you guys know that mrussi(russia) mwenyewe has tested the F-5 in russia against the MiG21/23 na aka kubali kuwa tiger ni bora zaidi?
SAWA SAWA WAZE poleni kwa kuleta guard yangu chini.. lakini hawa mafala wa ni fanya ni jam viriski sana.
kwa sasa nitawalenga. kwa vile naona walitupa mbao kitambo.
IN MY VIEW if those hawks are still in store perhaps they can be used for short range interdiction missions while the F5s are prioritised for air superiority and heavy bombing missions
twisting events,someone tells me that kenya air defence radar system its not effective and with m7 with his new birds can over fly our air space without beind noticed.
i also get reports that the hawks are air unworthy that why they hadly fly
oh oh.. i dont know how far the air defence system was upgraded for Kenya but from what i can gather it is only TZ in East Africa which has the most modern air defence radar followed by Ethiopia.
Perhaps the current air boys can tell us even though the SU 30 IS NOT STEALTH CAPABLE so i reckon even the most basic air defence radar can detect it what we should worry about is how we can intercept it after catching it on radar..because the thing does speeds in excess of march 2..it will be well into our airpspace before it can be intercepted and engaged..perhaps a proper ground to air anti aircraft missile system is the answer as well or better still once hostilities break out the idea to prevent take of by heavy pre emptive strikes on all enemy ground assets such as comms systems and runways.
THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED by deploying swarms of F5 tigers working in tandem with the hawks and the MD 500s ..my friends we are talking total war…
further to this when TZ got the system through the British government loan of about 45 million pounds in early year 2001..it was supplied by the BAE systems and commercilaliy sold and called the “watchman”…there was concern why TZ was acquiring a military type radar for civilian purposes and the Tanzanians said they need to monitor effectively their airspace for all purposes both civil and military.IT was hard to justify the cost for tanzanias economy and their was even a hint of corruption on the deal which was being pushed by Mkapa and the then finance minister KIKWETE.
Chinook ni radar gani ur talking about? ile at MAB? ama. spider when tz was aquiring its radar ambayo it was full of corrution story. wali kuwa wana taka kushinda ili iko MaB. i think at that time you were in the forces when the Dash-8 arrived. late 80 early 90. was a new radar was also installed at MAB. plus the Civil aviation radar encomposed the whole country. Radar zina kuwa integrated that MAB can use civilian radar at Jomo kenyatta for survelinace purpose. our civil aviation Radar i think a german not sure of the name encampas as for as seycells island from Moi airport Msa. so its an integration of radar not just single unit
it true that the MAB radar encompases the Nairobi approach as well as the MSA approach .HOWEVER we talking about late 90s TECHNOLOGY THEN AND thats why am not sure if any investment was made to these systems to counter emerging threats.EVEN though AM NOT WILLING TO DIG DEEP HERE in case we compromise national security
What former Posting? All my postings are between 10 am and 5 pm EST. I can waste my time at work answering assholes like you. If there are any other times that I posted it is either on the weekends or my free days on a Tuesday or Thursday try to prove otherwise dick head. And homo shit are you talking about – FYI its “suck my dick head or suck your dick head” and not “go suck a dick head” – what? You are such a fag.
Truth is you are in some aids infested slam in Kenya and am not
This is directed @ risasi
For those who are offended by this exchange but are not party to it am sorry but I don’t accept insolence from anyone
WAKENYA …
Wacheni huyu wazimu kabisa. hata usijibu mambo yake kabisa mpaka hii blogg iwe poa
@chinook- don’t let your patriotism cloud your judgement. this blog is losing it’s value because of a certain spamming jerk.
@spiderman- ok.
with f-16’s planform construction and a well hidden engine it’s rcs is low. add aesa to it and you get a mean fighting machine. pakistan is getting jf-17 because of its fear of sanctions. we will impose sanctions again if pakistan tries anything which is not in our interests. in that scenario, those f-16s would become hangar queens. pakistan took a wise decision to move away from the u.s. an inferior bird which can take to the skies is better than a hangar queen.
seedlong actually the main reason why there is concern for the su 30 acquisition IS THAT it changes the whole game in the region.
lets suppoose they get the latest avionics and radar for those six su 30s
let me say in lay man terms..this is a craft that will be able to track 15 targets and attack 4 at the same time. if all six are airborne we are talking 24 targets which can be interdicted rapidly.
We are talking a craft that can track a large sea based object more than 300kms away and engage air targets more than 120 kms away
We are talking a mach 2 air superiority fighter that can take off from UG and within 6 to 9 minutes be approaching NAIROBI and still be able to engage targets taking off from the main airbase at NANYUKI…that is why patriotic KENYANS on this blog are searching for answers
i do not think the F 16 can even the game unless you can demonstrate how even though i dont think the su 30 has any proven combat engagements but the F 16 has MANY PROVEN combat activities in the middle east but with support from many assets including AWACS.
the n-001vep on the mkk can track 10 and engage 4 air targets. this is a big capability. but f-16 with aesa will be able to handle this. the aesa radar is superior to the n001 both in processor capability and range. that coupled with f-16s rcs means that it should be able to track the sukhoi first. also with the latest longer range amraams, you’d get a first shot capability. but there is a problem- cost.
the block60 with aesa costs around 80 million each. but that cost may have included development costs. but you probably may have to pay royalty to uae. so lets say the cost is between 70-80 million. that’s probably the cost of 2 su-30mk2. when you pay more you get more! if you could swallow that bitter pill and manage 8 jets, kenya would no doubt be the king of its neighbourhood.
Am back.
First things first.Am shocked that this Tororo guy is still on this blog spewing profanity,never evolving and always sounding gay.He talks like somebody who has had a dick in his mouth.He talks of iq the size of a post telling me he is talking more about his ass than the people he is reffering to.
Second,i believe the subject about these SUs should be dropped.War execution involves is a combination of many elements including intelligence,economic power, land power,sea power,training and morale,just to mention a few.Its not a matter of debate that except the much overrated SUs,they lose big on everything else including airpower.I dont know how six un supported jets can overun our airfoce with more that 35 jets,milan airdefence missiles,over the top intelligence capabilities.
The much touted Sus ability to track and take out 4 targets is a cosmetic element conjured to make the plane menacing.What am saying is,even the best pilots of any airforce have never tracked and taken out a many targets unless they were dummies floated to be taken out.
There is a difference between whats on paper as a capability and whats technically possible.
I hate to repeat myself but let me say this:Am an army man and can only so much talk for the army.When i look on the other side,all i see is junk equipment t55s,t62s and a few a.p.cs suitable for 1970s museums.I’ll bet you my life if those modules are not taken out by our 50air calvary within 10 days of hostilities.I will also bet you my life if the first batch of u.p.d.f elements are not driven back to their bases by our first line of defence (the A.p police) right before heavy weaponly is deployed.
Mu7 is a soldier but not a good one obviously.He is a man who creates circustances to fit his plans unlike our planners who create plans to fit circumstances.Am telling you here and now that if engagements happened at the common border, (not likely) but create a scenario where the criminals in U.p.d.f make an incursion to steal a cow for food from the pokot the way they have done and an exchange ensues leading to a skirmish,it would be a reccurence of the 80s where our A.ps drove these thugs deep into ug without calling out the army.
The A.ps have heavy calibre guns to knock out the Russian junk tanks in updf inventory.
Troro that one is for you.
I still dont think any F-16 whichever block is worth its tag price. for 80 million we could get 5 brand new JF-17s with enough quality to deal with those pesky MiGs. And thats inclusive of training, spares and after sale services. Tell me something seedlong what do you the possibility is of a consortium of nations and interested parties approaching northrop with a proposition of resurrecting the F-20 programme? It was a private venture and i think with upgrades that bird would give most modern jets a run for their money.
this JF -17 IS NOT YET PROVEN and less than 20 have been produced? for pakistan airforce? i dont yet know the details….regarding the F20 i was under the impression that one series of the F5 is actualy a pimped up upgraded version of the F2.0
Bwana Spiderman they is nothing to worry as long as you have well planned strategy. Every unit should know what to do and do it correctly to the letter. Plus the 2032 beats the Su radar in many aspects. Apart from this tuko na a lot of intel and info from the Americans and the Brazil on F-5. The Brazilian used it in the red Flag exercise and had an impressive Kill ratio. An integral system can perform if put in action and executed as per the letter. ask your self in the Kosovo war The F-117 stealth was brought down by SA-3 Missile (1963) what happened?. BuK is much more effective then the SA-3.
it’s a whole integration of system that are going to be place in action that will make the differences. They is a lot of briefings that is going in the AF within the past months. Lets wait for board number 2,s out comes. As for the Block60 F-16 that’s out of the question they are locked to the U.A.E
the JF -17 has not been put into action but it is a collection of the short coming that the Pakistanis Af got from the F-16. and if you look at its evolution The Fc-1 has ruminate for a dropped project Northrop Grumman and china. . I think it will fare well
it would be expensive, D. first they have to set up a production line then modify the f-20 to carry the latest avionics. it also would require political support to re-start the program. all this is assuming there is an order for more than 100 jets. although f-20 is cheaper, f-16 can carry more payload, has more hardpoints, and has more range. so many nations may opt for the falcon.
and i agree with spiderman, jf-17 is still maturing. the jet’s host country china, has rejected it in favor of the j-10. the chinese avionics in it is not very modern. the pakistanis themselves are aware of this and are negotiating with the french to provide avionics and weapons. and let me tell ya, the french ones do not come cheap!! the 15-20 million price tag is for the bird with chinese avionics. if you opt for the french package, then expect the price to shoot up. but jf-17 with french avionics would make it a pretty lethal bird, which would make it attractive for kenya if it is willing to take the risk of inducting an unripe platform.
GIVE me the money and i will snap up the J-11 or the J-10. prefarably the J-11 which has a better combat radius .this can cover the entire kenyan airspace with ease..although the J-10 has better avionics which were clandestinely designed by an engineer with links to an ISRAELI avionics company.
There was some controversy on this but as usual always denied by israel to please the west
at the last count more than 120 are in service in chinese military and the cost will be far less than an F16.
one man idiot
Look here dick head the Kenyan army has never crossed into Uganda for any reason not even when the NRA was at its weakest when they had just taken over in 1986. The only reason the NRA never went deep into Kenya during 86-87 is because people within the MRM/O advised M7 that attacking the insurgents (who he was after and not Kenya per say) would be seen as him trying to expand his Marxist/ Socialist idea and he would draw the US involvement. M7 at the time was being watched closely by the US since it is belived that he had got support from people like Gaddafi (which is partially true). But lets fast forward to 2007 museveni sends trops into Kenya to whip the Rioters what did your faggot ass do mr one man army? Nothing. He takes over migingo sends all your troops away what have you done? NOTHING. He calls you mad jalous- still you ain’t done anything. So shut your bitch ass up.
Didn’t u get spiderman’s advice shit head?
DUDE IF YOU CANT REFRAIN FROM INSULTS, IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER WAY OF PUTTING ACROSS YOUR VIEWS APART FROM USING FOUL LANGUAGE I WOULD ADVISE YOU KEEP AWAY FROM THIS DISCUSSION. THIS IS NOT A PORN BLOG WHERE YOU CAN TALK DIRTY FOR SELF GRATIFICATION. WHAT ARE YOU 12?JEEZ I REALLY DOUBT THE DNI ARE PROUD OF AN EMPLOYEE WHO CANT KEEP HIS COOL. THAT IS IF YOU HAVE EVER BEEN OUTSIDE THE CONFINES OF THOSE HILLS IN TORORO. LIKE I SAID BEFORE AND I SAY IT AGAIN THE UPDF IS A BUNCH OF UNDISCIPLINED THUGS.
tororo
you are dragging me into your conversation on matter that i would not wish to respond to.
FYI,wat happen in 2007 was politics and it was known to kenya political head,he new and probaly gave his concent.
about migingo,do you remember at one time kenya APS were sent to the high land in the presence of updf and were able to to lower the ug flag and raise kenya flag b4 the the order came from the political head again to with draw the ap’s?
Did you know that the updf war plan at that time.how they planned to respond to the war and even set operation base ,banning of mobile communication and who was heading the operation were known to kenya intelligence?
to make it was the copy of the documents was in the hands of one of the kenya media,wen felix,updf spokes person was contacted,he was suprised how the information was leaked.
wat kind of army is the updf,if all your classified information on war plans were in our hand even b4 the war begun,could you pple manage the war when all your plans were at our disposal.
plz take away your stupidy in this blog i really dought whom you claim to be.
back to the topic,the su30 are good fighter and we should not assume this,they can rake havoc in kenya air space and lots of distruction b4 the f-5s respond.
the KAF should not sweep this under the carpet,its high time they wake up and look for ways to counter this arms race.am sure m7 will not stop at six,wat if he gets another six?
i was in mtongwe recently with an i dea of seeing for maself our naval machines but was disapointed with wat i found at berth.
we need to improve our sea capability too
Our BUKs are more than capable of dealing with the SU30 threat should it arise. But i have always been a proponent of newer brids for our airforce not because i have no faith in the F-5s at their current state but because i fear their airframes are nearing their use by date. i give the older F-5s 4 years tops before they are beyond safe flying age and the ones acquired recently have at most 7 years of good service left in them. I would not go for 2nd hand jets of whichever make for the same reason. That leaves Kenya with a choice between the JF-17 and the J-10. personally i prefer the J-10 but its costs are prohibitive. The chinese are not as constrictive with their EULA. So even if we get the JF-17s we could ship a couple out maybe to Israel to have them tested and installed with improvements. Just because its unproven doesnt mean its not good. Thing is we need to buy new jets soon so that by the time the legendary F-5s are no longer airworthy our pilots would have enough experience on whichever bird we settle on. This is what has always set us apart from the rest, the quality and individual talent of our personnel. Chinook i dont think the navy will get attention anytime soon. there is just no viable threat at the moment.
The navy was sending to send two ships KNS NYAYO AND KNS SHUJAA to France for systems upgrade and and refurbishment
OOPS….SORRY GUYS THE ships sent for refurbnishment are KNS UMOJA AND KNS NYAYO. not shujaa which is still roting in spain.
THE FRENCH COMPANY DOING THE JOB IS KNOWN AS FINCANTIERI. remember we neede to tackle the piracy menace as well.
SPIDERman
i think you are mixing yourself,the naval ship -shujaa is here with the navy,the one rotting in spain is jasiri
i wonder when the two ships you talk about were sent for up grade,wat you talked about was only muted but since then i haven’t heard of any KN vessel which left for refitting.
the planned refit was factured in 2008 and was to start mid year 2009 for 12 months meaning that those ships should be getting back to Kenya now if all was done on schedule..
SORRY for mixing up the names . ..and thanks for correcting me .you can check on the WINNER of the tthen tender to reffit the ships FINCANTIERI which is an Italian naval ship builder with subsidiaries in France.
There seems to be confusion on the exact nature of refurbishment for
Those two ships as the latest information from JANES DEFENCE inteligence SUGGESTS that after the refurbishment the two ships were to loose their missile systems which were ment to be transfered to the VESSELS IN SPAIN.. AFTER being placed in storage for future use.MY GOD… what realy went on here?
HOW on earth the navy agreed to this kind of tendering is to me a joke and the guy who was at the centre of all these negotiations in non other than the current KNS commander Mwathethe who you will recal before his rapid promotion when Murungaru was minister in charge of defence was the guy incharg of naval procurement and was also seconded in Spain to oversee the final construction of the INFAMOUS KNS JASIRI.. NOW … to me in retrospect i think the Kenyan tax payer has once again been done in by this seemingly suspicious deal.
There seems to be confusion on the exact nature of refurbishment for
Those two ships as the latest information from JANES DEFENCE inteligence SUGGESTS that after the refurbishment the two ships were to loose their missile systems which were ment to be transffered to the VESSELS IN SPAIN…. AFTER being placed in storage for future use.MY GOD… what really went on here?
HOW on earth the navy agreed to this kind of tendering is to me a joke and the guy who was at the centre of all these negotiations in non other than the current KNS commander Mwathethe who you will recall before his rapid promotion when Murungaru was minister in charge of defence was the guy incharge of naval procurement and was also seconded in Spain to oversee the final construction of the INFAMOUS KNS JASIRI.. NOW … to me in retrospect i think the Kenyan tax payer has once again been done in by this seemingly suspicious deal.
I COULD PROVIDE YOU WITH LINKS TO THE FEBRUARY 15th 2010 ISSUE OF JANES DEFENCE INTELIGENCE BUT AM AFRAID this a subscriber only material and you need to pay up and log into this kind of information.YOUR VIEWS ON THIS are well come
D I’m only responding in “kind”? Do you ever read the comments I’m responding to? Don’t tell me what to do or how to respond to something that I think is vermin.
Chinook what war plans are you talking about? How come this is the first time I’m hearing about it. Is this not one of the many Kenyan media fabrications? One of the many that they tried to use to rally the Kenyan population but only managed to convince the idiots in the slums? Oh by the way what flag is flying on migingo right now? – Uganda’s. So who is stupid here?
And by the way D’ I take my job very seriously that’s why I don’t respond or do anything concerned with this blog when I get to my desk. My dedication changes from UG to US and that’s why I have been able to last at my job
BEFORE i forget ..the current navy commander has been at one time at DOD as chief of systems and procurement…so that means something and i hope he knew what he was doing…. but i guess i am not that confident when you look at FIASCO caused by the SPANISH deal .
The navy has been swimming in murky water for sometime now especially when it comes to procurement matters. The saying that for justice to be served it must be seen to be served rings true in this regard. Am not really big on criticizing the brass and my record on this blog will tell you this too but someone at the navy is really doing a FUBAR job. One of the things that made me want to join the military was when we went for a tour of mtongwe Naval Base way back when i was a kid, KNS Shujaa and Umoja are sister ships and they were brand new back then. Boy did those boats gleam and glisten.
Anyway i think its about time we started conducting this blog with a degree of self respect. Kenyan Uniforms on this should know that this blog generates a lot of interest most of it the silent type. Keep your cool or else someone important might spot you. Tororo i apologize if i seemed a little bit hard on you but i have to say before you came along insults were unheard of on this blog.
Why would they strip our most powerful attacking ships of their main arsenal? KNS Nyayo and KNS Jamhuri are getting old. They didnt look too impressive when i saw them 10 years ago. Ive not confirmed what you are saying spiderman but i hope you are wrong.
INFACT i was puzzled when i got this through janes defence ..let me attach part of the artcle what the artcle says here VERBATIM..
( Navy procurement
Requirements A number of patrol craft and auxiliaries were procured from the Spanish shipyard Astilleros Gondán in the 1990s. The US has made funding available for a series of coastal surveillance improvements, including new patrol boats and coastal radar. Six new fast response interception vessels were delivered to Kenya in October 2006 by the United States Government to help combat piracy and drugs and arms trafficking. There has been much controversy regarding a KES4.6 billion contract awarded by the Kenyan government in July 2003 to Euromarine Industries in Spain for an oceanographic survey vessel, construction of which was sub-contracted to Astilleros Gondán. Construction was suspended on 18 July 2005, when the ship was 90 per cent completed, awaiting the result of an investigation regarding the contract award. By September 2006, the vessel had been given the name Jasiri and outstanding problems were reportedly resolved by 2007; however, the ship has yet to be delivered nearly five years after the August 2005 delivery date. A recent visit was made to the vessel by representatives of the Kenyan Parliamentary Defence and Foreign Relations Committee to look at the vessel. It is now the subject of on-going litigation through the International Arbitration Court in France.It is likely that Washington will be approached in the near future to consider the donation of further Archangel craft under the US Foreign Military Grant scheme. This would enhance the capability to project a security presence further from the shore, as these craft have better handling characteristics at
Navy procurement
Modernisation The Kenyan Navy’s two Nyayo-class fast attack craft – missile will lose their surface-to-surface missile (SSM) systems as part of a refit that will effectively reduce the vessels to a patrolling configuration. A spokesman from Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri, which will work on KNS Nyayo and KNS Umoja, told Jane’s in October 2008 that under a refit contract the craft will complete a work package at its Muggiano shipyard that will see the four launchers for the Oto Melara/Matra Otomat Mk 2 SSM system removed. The dismantling operation will be completed by European missile manufacturer MBDA, and the systems will be placed in storage for future use. The ships are to return to service in 2010. There is a possibility that the weapons will be fitted to Kenya’s large coastal patrol vessel being procured from Spanish shipbuilder Astilleros Gondán. During the Nyayo refit, the vessels will be fitted with a Furuno navigation radar in place of the existing Decca AC 1226 I-band system; all other navigation aids and telecommunications equipment will be provided by Fincantieri. Each ship is fitted with four Paxman Valenta 18CM diesel engines, which will be refurbished to allow a maximum speed of 40 knots and range of 2,000 n miles at 18 knots. Fincantieri will also give the hulls additional stiffening and the ships will then return to Kenya under their own steam in early 2010 with an expected service life extension of 15 years. The gun systems on each ship will be refurbished under )…….SO MY FRIENDS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE ABOVE that only the missile capabilities were to be disabled such that the vesel will be patrol capable but offensive or defensive..
i have edited some of the material for obvious reasons and please do not worry about me talking about the top brass …i know my limits and i ate my kiapo HAPO KITAMBO which binds me as well for a considerable period… but since we are on an open blog it makes sence to exercise caution for some of you great guys still serving our beloved motherland. KENYA.
“D”,RISASI
are we getting anywhere with thisUG versus kenya EXCHANGES really ?i think we have made our point largely to any right thinking individuals….maybe we should await any fresh information and take it from there…ooops by the way has the grenade incident in uhuru park been resloved?there is rumor of foreign involvement…
CHINOOK…could you please let us know if you still have any concerns after reading part of the answer on the navy…?i have endevoured to quote janes defence although some serious players may want to dismiss anything attributed to them…BUT at the moment i have no reason to cast shadows in that direction…unless some of the navy boys themselvs tell us what went on.
YOU say you were in Mtongwe and you did not like what you saw…WHY IS THIS SO.?…thanks again for pointing out the errors i made earlier.and for the rest of the blogg ..my apologies for being conservstive with MOST OF my information.
@chinook – I guess “without being noticed” was not worded correctly. Because if it was about radar detection as such, the MiG-21’s currently in service with the UPDAF would be much more of a threat then as its RCS is much smaller.
Shouldn’t be about ultra-low height penetration either. Su-30 is not the best aircraft for that at all.
So if your source is well-informed, he was probably talking about the Su-30’s EW capabilities. Su-30MK2 can employ two types of active jamming pods, SAP-14 (D-F bands) and SAP-518 (G-J bands). What is interesting is that both are marketed for export as individual protection jammers whereas during the Ossetian War (you’ll have to trust me on that one, sorry) Su-34’s with such systems were used for group protection. This probably means that export version are limited in capability. With both pods, Su-30’s EW capabilities are said to equal those of USAF EA-6B, but personally, I would subject that to doubt. To fit 6 x Su-30’s with both SAP-14 and SAP-518 will be very expensive. Moreover, an aircraft with all these pods attached will be extremely limited in its fighting capability.
Jamming however IS an issue which has to be considered seriously.
@SPIDERman – be careful to take this “track 15 targets and attack 4 at the same time” too seriously. These track while scan (TWS) capabilities of modern fighters’ radars are a terrific advertising spin, but of limited practical use. The reason? The dirty little secret of BVR missiles, even the data-link active terminal seeker type, is a low kill probability. During the Kosovo war, AIM-120 was only abt 50% against early-export-version-very-limited-self-defense-MiG-29’s. One should not assume more than 30% against a more modern aircraft.
They figured it out pretty early in the USSR, and THAT’s precisely the reason why the very Su-30 carries so many AA missilies, and why Russian BVR tactics include launching two missiles almost simultaneously.
BVR combat is still abt picking yr #1 threat, and concentrating on it, not tracking everything and shooting everything blind.
YOU SAID “THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED by deploying swarms of F5 tigers working in tandem with the hawks and the MD 500s ..my friends we are talking total war…”
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Offense is the best defense, and appearing a “good guy” is a non-issue here. That’s why the Su-30’s have been a very bad idea in the first place. They are a provocation, and they raise the threshold of high-intensity conflict in the region much lower. They require from Ugandans themselves such a standard of overall military preparedness which they can neither achieve nor afford.
@Risasi – so who has those other ex-RJAF F-5’s with EL/M2032?
@mugwira..so you recon that the NIIP… N011M BARS pulse doplar passive electronically scanned array radar is not that effective or what?my sources tell me this a highly advanced radar system anyway thats why i concluded that the SU30 though it has an impresive fact sheet …we are yet to see or hear its muscle in actual combat even though there have been some tragic spectacular crashes. involving this craft.
you are right though that ug by acquiring this craft is a big deal that recquires massive preparedness in a conflict situation.
I meant that this “track so many targets and attack so many targets” thing is of limited importance for modern BVR combat. It doesn’t matter how many targets you engage if your missiles don’t hit, and then you run out of missiles.
In the late 80’s, before arms became Russia’s only serious non-commodity export, Russians military analysts themselves wondered why Western radar manufacturers put so much emphasis on these figures.
Note Su-30MK2 is equipped with Zhuk-MSE, not N011M BARS like 30MKI.
D’ like I said am only responding in “kind”. Some how you have failed to notice that all this was provoked by some other person and I would answer them in a language they seemed to understand since they were using it before I did. I understand the blog has people who are definitely not happy with it but unfortunately there is no other way that I can carry on “our conversation” with the instigators and also I have never been the type to back down from anything
TORORO,
This Tororo guy with a peanut brain full of matoke has literally insulted everyone on this blog and other blogs ive been to.The most common denominitor about his insults is that they are porn and gay oriented which suggests he is a faggot or some gay head in porn industry.I for one have no respect for this lunatic.these are the idiots who feed my ever growing appetite for Kenyan tea made in kampala state house while i clean my Gun and train a new disciplined batch of ugandan army after dislodging exisisting criminals and their cattle rustlers counterparts.Every sane person knows that Ug cant feed the u.p.d.f they have to steal cattle from the pokots.
Now,anybody with common sense would NEVER argue that we did nothing when u.p.d.f was invited by politicians to wreck havoc on armless civilians.It was a marriage of convenience between dogs with big tails and the tails happened to wag the dogs and not the other way round.Thats what criminals and thugs do.To the contrary , everyone noticed that Kenya army was busy clearing road barricades,feeding the hungry and protecting innocent civilians while u.p.d.f thugs masqueraded as kenyans and rooted kiosks and condom parlours.
As for migingo,the tone was set by our c.g.s when he said the issue was never a millitary issue but that of catographers.If anything,we already knew there was a deal between the dogs to wag their tails (should i say a deal between the tails to wag their dogs) on this subject.Any sane U.p.d.f general is aware that u would never afford to defend migingo millitarily (unless its done with bananas) if it came to it.
On a very mature subject,ive asked you to tell me what U.g is supposed to bring to bear as their heavy bambardment capabilitiy,swift intelligence and reccon abilities,heavy anti tank and anti merchanized units destruction abilities,heavy aerial bombardment,trasport and mobility, i can go on forever.
One thing i know for sure is that the likes of you in updf will bring a cocky attitude,ignorance that you dont need apcs for mobility you can walk to mombasa,carelessness in that those lyrics t55s,mambas and t62s that have been used against Ugandan population can make a difference.
One of our plattoon leaders said it best when he said that Ug is led by a Bandit king who has confiscated all elements of state and created a police state with a police army whose only effective use is against armless and innocent civilians and political opponents.Such ‘Kings’ are only out to consolidate their power.
You are of the “one man army” fame. Why didn’t you start to show your commitment to have tea in KLA by showing the UPDF in Kenya what you are “made of”? I’m guessing you are just a scarecrow with no heart and all talk so shut the F up
@mugwiira.. as you can probably see now thousands of views have been advanced on this blog and others on this issue from all coners of the web since the debate started…on this KAF/ KENYA/UG situation..some of the views border on the extreme bizareness of incredible self belief.while others are plain daft.
HOWEVER WHAT am wondering is if any powers that be are takling notice of these concerns and what steps are being done to remedy the situation.
As far as I know, the Europeans are trying to explain these points to the UG’ns but no details have leaked.
Uganda cannot pay for the Sukhoi’s from its budget. Oil revenues, under the most optimistic scenario, will not be enough to pull this through for some 3-4 years, and there are in fact still too many questions as to how this oil can be commercialized. Moreover, they already have an-IMF approved plan for spending the “oil money”. The only option is to pay from FX reserves, but in that case the reserves will be drained to an extent where they can hardly cover the IMF requirement of 3-months imports. This can endanger Uganda’s monetary standing and undermine the UG Shilling in the current tight macro environment.
But it seems unless there is a “hush!” from the US, the deal may still proceed.
What’s worth noting here is that Russia has no material interest in East Africa. If it did, and if Uganda’s actual defense requirements were taken into consideration, they would have offered Uganda smth else instead of Su-30’s, maybe a MiG-21 upgrade and Yak-130’s. Instead, because they don’t really care what happens in this part of the world, they just act as a drug pusher selling cocaine to kids.
Tororo,
There is currently no flag flying in Migingo island. All flags were removed last year to pave way for the joint survey which is yet to be fully completed after the Ugandan team abandoned work mid-way to consult the authorities.Please update your records.There is definitely no doubt as to who owns the Island and we also all know that there will never be a war over the Island.The leaders are just playing politics, but they know they are buddies hence no shot will be fired. In short there is no dispute.
spoken like a true Gentleman and I agree with everything you just said.
i just told you guys the same thing.Migingo was never an issue let alone a millitary one.It was a phantom,a diversion,a tail wagging by our leaders who play daytime opponents and night time lovers.Between Kampala and Nairobi,alot of phone calls were made at the height of this issue and mutual coexistence was acclaimed.the leaders had to hush and ignore the issue.Thats what differentiates a politician from a real soldier.A soldier vows loyalty to a flag,a nation,a people while a politician vows loyalty to his political eminence.
I noticed that most guys here are very skeptical towards MiG-23, which is not really right. There is MiG-23 (Flogger-A) and MiG-23ML/MLD (Flogger-B), the second being a completely re-designed airframe, lighter, much more agile and easier to handle. In 1976 when it was introduced into service, it was second only to F-15 among tactical fighters. After the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, Americans tested MiG-23MLD against the F-16 and F-15, and were surprised how capable it was.
In mock fights organized in the USSR, the MiG-23 which su$&ed against the F-5 was an early 23M. 23MLD, on the other hand, when flown by experienced pilots who knew how to use its thrust advantage, did consistently beat the very agile MiG-21bis. It was also found that an experienced pilot flying a MiG-23MLD had good chances against a less experienced pilot flying a MiG-29.
The Angolan MiG-23ML’s flown by Cubans did kick some South African asses in the Border War.
It seems, however, that Lybia was unlucky enough to order many 1st generation 23’s. I understand (but I’m not absolutely sure) that these are the ones they gave to M7. Not a good gift at all because these aircraft are not worth upgrading.
Does this explain why the MiG 23s in Ugandan inventory have not been flying often?
At least the MiG 21s have been spotted in action with one crashing in December 2008.
It seems they are also not in good condition and expensive to operate. Never saw them myself anyway, unlike the 21’s.
Another MiG-21 crashed into Lake Victoria in 2003; it was flown by a merc pilot from Belarus.
IAI also upgraded MiG-21’s for Romania, and those were crashing all the time, too, even though Romania has operated Mig-21’s for a long time. The Israelis have extended and reinforced the wing to increase payload, and there’s a rumor that handling has changed. This rumor originates from Russia however, so it can just be rubbish and an attempt to sell MiG’s own upgrade, 21-93.
The mig 23 MLD flogger export version K is a formidable plane if fitted with high end specs and flown by an all round pilot.
However we are not sure which versions UG has ..does any one know?
The libyans had over 130 migs and are retiring all their stock in 2011 and have ordered the SU 30 AND THE SU35 as their mainstay fighters deliveries are due ..if not already started..THE current stock of migs are mostly in storage or used for training purposes while others are given away to supposed friends..most others are just parked junks used for target shooting somewhere in the libyan desert
Remember the mig 23 was one of the most widely produced fighter planes in the world with over 5000 units manufactured.IT is therefore easy to get parts and cheap to maintain in all manner of versions…hence most emerging air forces in the world found them cheap in order to get on the market.
Here is one reason Uganda needed to buy those high-tech SU-30MK2s. Perhaps the reason why Kenya should also upgrade.
http://www.bookerrising.net/2010/06/does-uganda-need-high-tech-jets.html
IT seems an interesting angle from this booker rising blogger but he forgot to bring in the other geo political players in the region like KENYA TZ RWANDA ETC unless he thinks we are not a threat.
I think he did not foresee a threat from fellow East African brothers on account of the coming integration/EAC.
“Our country faces a dilemma similar to that of Israel”
Mwenda is a humorist!
There is a difference between these two questions:
A. “Does Uganda Need High-Tech Jets?”
My answer: YES!
B. “Does Uganda Need Heavy Multirole Strike Fighters?”
My answer: WTF?
DOES anyone know the explanations why the FORMER soviet UNION used mostly if not all ODD numbers to designate their military fighter planes? eg
mig17
mig19
mig 21
mig23
mig25
mig27
mig29
mig31
mig33
etc etc?
You could say the same for the US with even number designations except for the F-5 and the F-117 stealth.
Oh i forgot the F-15
It has been a Soviet tradition since as early as 1930’s to give ODD numbers to fighters/interceptors, and EVEN numbers to attack/bomber aircraft.
There some deviations though, like Su-25 (attack/ground support) because it is “small” or Su-30 because it is for export only. Russia itself will be replacing its Su-27 with Su-35’s until the T-50 is ready.
May be seedlong can tell us….even though the soviets were always keen on naming nearly all their military productions with project numbers…in order to help mask the identity of their scientists..
WOULD it it be marvelous to have a super african state that includes kenya,ug,tz,rwanda,burundi,drc,?…we all are majority linguistiscallly connected via bantu, kiswahili…languages and our peolples have very unique cultural links…instead competing..
BY THE WAY RWANDA is working on to build the most modern airport in this region and kagame has already secured funding for the most powerfull radar system for this project.
he is thinking along the lines of competing with nairobi to lure away airline hubs from nairobi.SOME western analysts think that after the 2007 fiasco and the uncertainity of 2012 ..KENYA may be loosing its regional eminence with a weak political dispensation of current affairs
Because of lack of direction on foreign policy we are being blamed for things we are not like habouring genocide perpetrators and massive corruption which is killing our ranking in world events.
are you talking about the standby brigade?
http://www.easbrig.org/
Here is a thought….we all know our current administration is a bit….timid. Looking at the wider scheme of things, oil money, UN forces pulling out of DRC, the river Nile treaty the EAC federation and such like maybe M7 wasnt dumb when buying those jets. See Kenya has always taken a leaders role in the region but of late we have turned to a more subdued role. M7 being the most senior leader in terms of years in service naturally had to step up to fill the vacuum. With all the events happening he knew that most of the new threats would come from outside the EAC namely Sudan, A lawless Eastern DRC and Egypt. Kenyas current admin would not respond to calls from him to stock up in arms in readiness for any eventuality. Instead he bought jets by himself, backed off on the migingo saga and hoped that the net regime would be a bit more aggressive in such matters. The SU-30 deal did cause a lot of discomfort among the brass, sort of like the way it has done on this blog, M7 knew this was going to happen and his timing of the deal gives whoever is going to take over next good time to plan his strategy. All of the front runners on the 2012 made a hell lot of noise about the migingo issue…I think M7 reverse psychologied us.
The EAC is a very good idea especially if handled in a professional and mature manner,away from the usual rhetoric by leaders.Not only will this spur growth in the region, but we stand to gain a lot of clout and command in the international arena.The competition you are talking about will indeed be very healthy as none will want to be left behind thus proving to be the engine to drive development. May be we could also look at one big defense shield for the region-the stand by brigade?
I can see the Blog is still alive. Wapi mzungu? i have a belatted post on answering on early question posted on the type of Migs in Ug. Here are the detail. twenty servicemen from the Ugandan air force, including two pilots, went to Libya for a training course on MIG-23 in 2005. Uganda was OFFERED 5 MiG23 (MS,BN and the UB version) nambia got
2 Mi-8s and 2 Mi-24/35, and D.R.C(zaire) AF 2 MiG23 MS and the UB. versions
Uganda MiG23
2xMiG23MS(‘Flogger-E), 2xMiG-23BN (‘Flogger-H) and 1xMiG23UB(‘Flogger-C) (twin seat trainers)
Performance:
Range 2000km
Radar: RP-22 (NATO: ‘Jay Bird’) radar improved version range of 35 km
Weapons
6x missles of the following.
AA-2 8km infrared homing
AA-7, 35km Semi-active radar homing
AA-8, 8km infrared homing
The MiG-23BN (‘Flogger-H) Is mainly a boomer and has no radars but a laser rangefinder and the PBK-3 bomb sight. a payload of 3000 kg
It uses Gravity bombs and ground attack rockets
MiG21 (5 to date)
The UPDF AF operates 3 types of MiG21: 1xUM (trainer Serial no: 9307), 2xBIS (Serial no:9811,18) and 4xMF (Serial n:903,6,7,17).
Range 1200km
Radar
RP-21 Sapfir (NATO: Spin Scan) (MF) range of 20 km
RP-22 Sapfir (NATO: ‘Jay Bird’) radar (BIS) range of 35 km
Weapons
Interceptor modes
4x AA-8
2x AA-2
drop tank
ground attack mode
UV-16-57 rocket packs, two 500 kg and two 250 kg bombs or four S-24 air-to-surface rockets.
This deference between the Bis and the MF is the frame and payload. The Bis can take higher G. the MiG21 have been considered for upgraded to MiG-21-93 in russia. This upgrade will involve dual-screen HUD, helmet-mounted target designator, advanced flight control systems.the Kopyo pulse-doppler radar, smaller version of N010 Zhuk airborne radar used by the MiG-29, this will enables the aircraft to the beyond-visual-range Vympel R-77 air-to-air missile.
N.B
the Libyan MiG23 in Ug. had no BVR capability The avionics suite is basic. And it is not clear how many MiG23 have actually were delivered and are in operation. 5x Mig23 were the numbers that they asked the Libyans The MiG23MLD which is also referred as the MiG27 was not sold
the MiG-23MS is a less agile airframe in a MiG-21s weapons systems and hence not real advance at all.
Its has impressive appearance and great acceleration but no notably better than its predecessor, the MiG-21. it also has poor maneuverability then the MiG21
As for the SU30 details have been early posted. Initially Ug was interested in buying 6xMiG29 before the LUKoil deal came through.
The initial purchase cost for a Sukhoi Su-30 is around $40 million, for a fleet of 6 that would be roughly a quarter of a billion dollars. They would also need modern weaponary, base and support facilities, training, maintnance and many other additional purchases and expenses. It would end up costing over a billion. Let us put in mind Russia is aware of regional politics and knows how to play its card Last year it almost cancelled a sell of MiG31E to Syria after re examing the domestic situation in Syria. .i think the MiG21 upgrade will likely settle the deal. Lets keep our ears and eyes open
Just a few short ones:
1. Don’t count on a “oil-for-jets” deal.
2. The only country in SSA where Russia retains reasonable influence is Namibia.
3. Don’t count on UG oil anyway before 2013 at least.
It is very hard to tell why exactly the MiG-31 deal fell through. Either lack of money, or Israeli pressure, or both. It also seems Syria was planning to get money from Iran for this procurement, but it’s not clear how exactly.
P.S. There was a nasty corruption scandal in Russia with these MiG-31’s where they were sold for “scrap” from the National Reserve, and then re-sold as “airframes” to the manufacturing plant at a price way higher than that of “scrap”. Criminal investigations are underway.
Risasi,
So this BVR combat capability is not actually out of the range for most countries? What was this argument from Seedlong then?
By the way, how many of the Kenyan F-5 jets are fitted with the EL/M 2032 radar?The three EM series? What about the others? Are they on APG-67 radar? Mugwiira says these are BVR combat capable also and perhaps even better if i read his post correctly.
To be very precise, I was trying to say that a lot depends on the missiles available.
now that we’ve almost agreed that the Ugandans are not so keen on a confrontation with us as they are with the Sudan and Congo, isn’t it time we reevaluated our arguments? First with the reduction of MONUC troops won’t this present a new security challenge for the country? if so is there a way that EASBRIG can intervene to create a buffer zone between the Congo and western EAC? Coincidentally what are the terms of the mutual defence pact singned between the greatlakes region countries? 2. Somalia. Isn’t anyone the least bit concerned about this powder Keg? Leaders in Mandera have now started making funny noises, Al-Shabab is getting stronger and bolder. they are mastering techniques we really dont want them perfecting. Isn’ it time someone decided to put EASBRIG to use in Somala as a PEACE ENFORCING force? Focusing on hypothetical conflicts and ignoring the real and more potent ones might really catch us flat footed.
Jasiri,
Would be happy to discuss EASBRIG. However, I guess “kenya-armed-forces-pix” thread would be more suitable. What do you think?
Oil is not always a indictor of a good arsenal. if that was the case then Nigeria would have a super arsenal. During the cold war countries like Egypt and Ethiopia were given latest weapons by the Soviets. But how did they perform during wars?
BvR has been there since the 70’s with the sparrow Aim-7 and the Aim-54 missiles. but what has changed is the engagement methods
.
Initially Bvr missiles would engage by following the reflections of the attacking aircrafts radar on the target. the attacking aircraft would illuminate the target with is radar and the missile would follow the reflection. The disadvantage is if the attacking aircraft was attacked during the engagement then it would have to take evasive maneuvers and hence move away from its target and the missile would be lost.
In present days BvR missile are controlled remotely by sending the bearings of targets acquired by the radar to the missile via a data link. When the missile reaches the vicinity of the target it turns on its radar and puist the target. It should be noted that missiles carry small radars due to their size. a typical missile radar range would be 25-30km.i.e if a missile has a range of 100km then the 70km traveled will be done by remote and the rest by the missile purist systems..
At the moment we can say there 3 specie of F-5. The older ones that were upgrade by a Singapore firm in early 2000, the Jordan batch which is split into 2032 radars and APG-67 radar crafts. don,t confuse the EM series with the one that might have the 2032. the EM series were a advance upgrade version of the F-5E with the APG-67 radar. i.e all Jordanians F-5 had the APG-67 radar. It would be cost effective to upgrade EM series as they already have advance avionics. this is why they were sort after by many countries. All the Jordanian F-5 to Kenya i.e 15crafts have BvR capable radars i.e APG-67 radar or the 2032.
upgrades have been done what remains is to fit them with BvR missiles.
The choices range from Alenia Aspide, PL-10, Derby Rafael coupling them with Python 4 or AIM-9 Sidewinder for short range engagements
this topic will never die out,it goes and comes back like boomerang.
do we have any equipment on oder at the moment,apart from wz-9 and the Nora B52 and 2S7pion.
many would consider this as a classified information but we can discuss it at length.
are the 35air calvary helis still active are some were lost?
olekemia and jasiri
welcome back
lastly,the famous NYS are now being transformed to an armed unit,i don’t know which role they gonna play.its like kenya are quikly reorganising it self in defence man power,not to forget the new kids on the block,the RDU AND THE RANGERS FOR THE ARMY.
I was told out of all the MD 500’s ever delivered, only abt 10 are serviceable, mostly from among those 8 which were supplied as a part of US military assistance in the early 90’s.
I may be wrong however, this is just what I heard.
This however isn’t bad at all compared to Ugandans who are left with a single serviceable Mi-24.
It seems there will be no R-77’s in the Su-30MK2 package if the Uganda deal comes through. An EL/M 2032 equipped fighter with Derby/Alto may have an advantage then.
NOW that kenya ,tanzania ,uganda,burundi,rwanda are moving fast towards economic intergration how can the armed forces of all these countries intergrate now that they have basic diffrences in training,recruitment and military postures?
its a hard sell, first off they have to agree on a single commander in chief. Logically you cannot have a united army with divided leadership. Differences in training regime and ideological indoctrination inside the East African forces is also a huge impediment. Its not that its impossible though, it just needs time because such a force has to be built from scratch, a dedicated East African Brigade under the leadership of the rotating chairmanship with strong counterbalances to ensure abuse of this force is not possible, easier said than done.
Hallo Guys. Just back in, getting my head up for a short breather, and then back out. Got that Stone too!! Now, Combined/Joint Command / Armed Group? Not for me, and I am certain not for a whole lot of front-line fellas too. They know that the Unit has a specific Personality and Character that takes years, blood and guts to develop. This is what defines the Unit, and then too the larger Formation, passed on and cherished – the Esprit du Corps. Like I have stated very emphatically on my previous posts on this same topic, this necessary indoctrination is what makes the Soldier and marries him to his calling of deadly intentions, so that he will dispassionately and very efficiently use maximum deadly force without compunction, and sleep the snooze of the innocent. You chaps must recall your induction at Boot Camp in Lanet? And subsequently follow-through combat & staff schools? Now, recall just how identical was the approach and methodology during each of these phases? You reckon TZ with it’s UJAMAA specter and the Bandit-king’s bush brigands of “more is better” , and General K’s Gum-boot gendarmerie with their ever stifling genocidal propensity/history, would ever induct into Kenya’s Military Training Doctrine? Not in thirty years! This whole Standby Brigade-thing and the idea of a joint EAC Armed Group / Command is just Politics that suits the moment in Politics. Whileas we may never fight a full-scale war after integration, but we will remain distinctly and uniquely separate. Hey Jasiri, sent you a cipher, no reply. Risasi, that BEEG EAGLE fella has got you dunked in his tail-pipes, atakuchoma bwana, watch your six, mate. Proud of you chaps, Risasi, olekoima, One-man-army, “D”, Jasiri, Tororo, welcoming Mugwiira(when did you decommission, man?) Seedlong, Pat(UK), Chinook, for growing this site – specific desks now cropping up tasked to keep tabs on the site in you-would-never-guess-which Organizations!!
Never mind the few EAC chaps training out of KMA and other Basic Schools in Kenya – just plain token, to suit this particular moment of Intergration. From Basic, the Indoctrination takes particular hues that are perculiar to each Nation, and eventually define the Formation. Lets not get caught in this Web waived by the Political Class and which is appropriate for this specific moment – we are Soldiers for a purpose!!
welcome back major.i realize youve been missing for a minute.
I applause what you said above that beside everything else, we are soldiers.The fabric that threads us together from the smallest unit to the entire armed forces of kenyais based on many aspects including purpose,character,identity,discipline,philosophy so on so forth.I want to remind you that a soldier is not a man in uniform holding a gun.There is the soul that lives in every soldier,every unit and its built over many years.
what am saying here is that an east african army in my opinion is out of question.May be an eastafrican police force to maintain law and order.The reason is,for an army to be constituted,it has to be given this soul and we CANNOT strip the Kenya army part of its soul and integrate it into an evidently reckless,thug like and unprofessional souls that lives in some of our neighbors forces.Like Nkarei just said,unless we build a force from scratch.
i agree with you fully major and my article above is directed to those suggesting we chop off some of our men in uniform and cambine them with those from neighboring states to form a joint force.
When NATO was first constituted over sixty years ago, it was primarily underpinned by British and French Forces with the Americans at “point”. Purely political, driven by the euphoria lingering still of their massive defeat of the Axis in WWII. And despite the essential Military designation of it’s purpose, NATO’s establishment took no great Military justifications into consideration, and hence the Structure for the effective integration of these two distinctively and also historically competing British and French Armies was never fully defined. So that the necessary entry into NATO of their once-joint-enemy West Germany finally collapsed this fragile union leading to the French removing their Forces from the Joint-Structure and reverting to a constructive engagement mode with NATO. This remains to date the position in the Unified Europe where NATO has expanded outwards for Geo-political strategic justification while remaining militarily a loose formation of distinctive and separate Nationalistic Armed Formations. The EU members of NATO’s engagement in any activities under the egis of NATO is distinctively and essentially a National Prerogative, whether it is defined as a humanitarian tasking or as an aggressor-role such as is their activities in Afghanistan and Bosnia a few years ago. The flip side is that it has lessened /obviated Military Conflict between NATO members, although conversely it reduces too the ability of NATO to undertake rapidly-evolving war on a massive scale with as formidable foe such as the Soviet Union. For this reason therefore, and considering that our situation in this part of Africa is generally still evolving and unpredictably fragile, Kenya will maintain independence of Command and Structure, while leaving the Integration matrix to its Socio-politico facets. Your take, chaps?
UNDER president SARKOZY, the french are no longer acting “aloof” but from 2009 they have opted to fully join the NATO command structure.
SEE ATTACHED LIONKS
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2009/03/france-to-re-join-nato-core/64252.aspx
I HAVE previously posted some information on the Kenya navy ships which were supposed to undergo some so called upgrades. CAN SOMEONE TELL TELL US …what really went on and are these ships back into Kenyan hands ? THE ATTACHED LINK SHOWS the original information on the subject:
http://www.fincantieri.it/cms/data/browse/news/000254.aspx
FOURTHER INFORMATION on this not so clear deal is here :http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Naval-Construction-and-Retrofit-Markets/Kenya-Kenya.html
CORRECTION
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Naval-Construction-and-Retrofit-Markets/Kenya-Kenya.html
Pat, your queries at kinda obtuse, man. To what purpose do you ask for such leading information? Are you inviting us to partake in possible espionage, man? Shouldn’t you respond like everybody else to National Security pre-eminence? Do you consider it not significant that this blog now attracts all flies like a pungent dung-hill? I know certain friendly organizations (and some not so friendly) who have now dedicated desks poring over this blog and others in which Uniforms and former Intell Operatives from East Africa are throwing stuff around, angling to catch unguarded morsels, not least of which could be used to develop profiles of contributors necessary to compromise and turn them. If you have any chaps you know in Intelligence (Kenya) ask them, mate. I find it very inappropriate and am greatly distraught that questions which seek to localize military ability and to identify specific military capacities are bandied about in this sort of forum. Despite the thirst for Information, and the right-to-know, do consider that disclosures of a national security nature need to be couched in some necessary caution. On such matters, I think generalizations and intelligent suppositions is what should take place here – we can fill in the blanks for ourselves!!
FIRST AND FOREMOST I forgot to congratulate you on the deserved new heavier “stone” that you have recently gained..to me it is extremely gratifying when people of such calibre are given the recognition and promotion that they have earned without undue pressure …so kudos for you SIR!
NOW to my point the reason i have revisited this issue of KNS IS BECAUSE in the recent postings by one CHINOOK…he indicated that he was in mtongwe recently and did not like what he saw…this got me going …and by the fact that we have been done in by alleged dubious deals involving the KNS
ANYWAY as you have rightly indicated am quite capable of getting this information from elsewhere and indeed have DONE SO..thank you.
RISASI,MUGWIIRA”,D” and others
NOW THAT we are moving towards full economic intergation on the region. and UGANDA is acquiring the much touted SU 30 maybe we kenyans can look at the MIG 35…for our own needs and also for projection power and support in the region. see attached link
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig35/
see video of mig 35 in action here … please .let me not be accused of trying to sell russian technology….am only posting this for comparison purposes
SU 30 video
so guys what do you think? i hope people with slow machines may not fully appreciate these you tube videos
am using a quad core 750 GIG MEMORY [P 8250 intel pentiam proceser) WITH RAM of 4gigs and HD MONITOR
I BETTER LOG OFF NOW….GHANA is on the pitch now versus URUGUAY…cannot miss this one
Heard heady talk about 35 Units F-15E Strike Eagles first batch delivery early november! Hush-hush whispers also of shave-off delivery of some ex-IAF similar designation and Units with a similar date-line too. Now, that would be something you fly-boys will like. May be just hot-air / wishful expressions, but not uncharacteristic of present strategic thinking in Planning circles at MoD. Risasi?
Ole nkarei
you’ve woken me from ma sleep and almost jumping of ma feet.
do you mean wat you are talking about,kenya procuring the birds you’ve mention??
i wish DoD could think the way you’re
Might be nothing to it, mate. Certainly it is strategic thinking being bandied about. How substantive, or immediate, I donno. But, yes, I have sniffed it, and Iam sure some uniforms have too have caught the smell of what’s cooking!!. Not sure just yet if the Ex-IAF Units will preceed the others, though, but if there has been recent heavy cross-training in the IAF or the US on these birds or similar, then……!!
i simply CANNOT believe it…but if that comes to pass then i will sleep easy for the rest of my life.MOD acquiring the F15 STRIKE EAGLES is a major statement and no joke.This is a mainstay USAF fighter that has proven itself again and again .
HOWEVER IT DEPENDS which version they get and the armaments etc
the attached link gives the statistics of all variants present and current.THE best option is the stand alone one which does not rely on major AWACS support.
INFACT .for me it is now time we got those birds while we have a user friendly regime in white house….
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/fighter/f15.html
more links to this aircraft……
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f15/
and videos for comparison purposes
THIS IS AWESOME MAN…. we need this bird and this will be money well spent my brothers..
Strong smell too about dramatic cut-and-thrust activities brought about by the Nile Waters Debate / Fall-out, drawing in the usual middle-east protagonists and their Patrons. Talk of Israel going rabid trying to open an aggressor-type Covert Intel Front contra Egypt/Sudan with Kenya as the fulcrum – events in the Sudan not removed from this either. Now their Opposites are not seating it out neither, and working to force a wedge into relationships of States in the Highlands of East Africa, and that the delivery of the SU30MKK is just a tip of this strategy – see the reactions in this blog to the news of the SUMKK? So that the ex-IAF / USAF deliveries is the “Cut” and the UG riposte is the “thrust”. Taking into consideration the expected near-exponential expansion of National Economies projected to ride on the Oil and Natural Gas / Mineral exploitation / inter-trade in the region in UG and Kenya, and GoSS going independent this year, seems certain we are all heading for very interesting times in this region. Olekoima – your take?
SIR ole nkerai…i also heard those whispers about 4 months back ..but i assumed it was kama kawaida tu…wataongea halafu chapa zita lost tu .. ama……
i posted something breifly on the preference for the F15 but i think risasi was doubtfull if uncle sam would sunction such a deal.
SO LETS WAIT AND See
@ ole Nkarei – I’m a foreigner, based in UG, thus my nickname (mugwiira).
Have remained in standby reserve since almost the very day I was commissioned as a Lt in my home country’s Armed Forces.
Not on any official duty, but never forgot what I was taught.
Not a flyboy either, was trained in a different field altogether. My interest in combat aircraft has more to do with my childhood/personal background.
Came to this site in the aftermath of the Sukhoi story looking to discuss force balance in EA. Having been in EA for some time, I knew it had to be a KENYAN site. Agree with your description of TZ, UG and RW armed forces 100%, and with your geopolitical analysis of the Great Lakes situation.
You are wrong on NATO however. NATO has a well-developed force planning process, and very well-defined interoperability standards. This force planning is about each NATO country allocating a significant portion of its forces to serve under the unified allied command. These units are given very specific assignments in implementation of the NATO integrated defense plan.
Such level of military integration has no historic precedent, even in the Warsaw Bloc.
The British/French competition had limited impact on the NATO capability. One country which contributed almost all of its forces to the force planning process, and accounted for most NATO frontline troops was West Germany. This is why Americans, Brits and French never agreed to the early Soviet idea of a neutral unified Germany (Austria-style) – they knew they could never take on the Red Army without German re-armament.
Ironically, just like Bundeswehr, the East German army – Nationale Volksarmee – also was among the most combat-ready armed forces in the world. One almost forgotten aspect of the Cold War is that any conventional war in Europe would to a large extent be a German-on-German affair.
The French withdrew from the NATO military (not political) structures in protest against British-American dominance in the unified command; both SACEUR and Deputy SACEUR were Americans at the time.
I can assure you, as of now NATO is much better prepared to fight a war against Russia/Belarus than vice versa.
As for the EASBRIG, it is a political thing, and a very crude implementation of the same principles which are behind behind the NATO Response Force (NRF) and EU Rapid Response Force (EURRF). I will write a lengthy post on this today/tomorrow.
I AGREE in toto that NATO ORGANIZATIONAL STUCTURE is very well planned and distinctively operated and therefore it is really one of the reasons that most member countries notably UK/FRANCE/SPAIN are scalling back on major military expenditures due to safety in numbers
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/structure.htm
IN THE UK in recent times there is even talk of plans to have a joint naval command for UK AND FRANCE NAVIES which is not very popular with the publics of both nations where historically there navies have had very troubled encounters..the most recent was when CHURCHILL ORDERED the sinking of a french battle group during the second world war just to prevent the Germans from getting their hands on those ships THAT HAD TAKEN REFUGE on an island in the Atlantic north of the African coast
MUGWIIRA
WHY do you think NATO continues to exist and expand now that the Warsaw pact/BLOCK as it existed previously is no longer a threat?
HOW would the military balance swing if their is a real RUSSIA/CHINA and all former soviet space military re-allignment? ..bearing in mind RUSSIA STILL HAS THE LARGEST STOCKPILE OF heavy nuclear missiles and they still maintain a full compliment of strategic nuclear forces operating from haddened bankers 1500 miles outside moscow?despite shortcomings in their economic strengths?
Hey Mugwiira. I had you pegged for a Meru(!!) chap from basic school with that same moniker. Are you an indigene of UG? Military Science studies required extensive studies on the responses / reactions arising out of the events of WWII particularly within the Military Establishments of the existing and emerging Military Powers in Europe in the fifties and Sixties. Driven by the implicit realisation that eventually for this Region there would be an imperative to unify our various National Armed Groups, and hence the study of “how”, and “what-ifs”. Your take on the background, structure and development of NATO are encapsulated in the entire subject, and I KNOW you are right about the Dilemma of Germany (West and East) forces on the Opposing sides of NATO. However, having faith that our Military Science programs are comprehensive and pretty much up-to-scratch, my prognosis on NATO posted earlier are I reckon very spot on, notwithstanding your corrections, on a SWOT analysis basis alone. I will be very interested to read your further posts on this subject, though.
sir ole nkarei
THIS LINK PROVIDES YOU WITH detailed information on some of your suppositions as shown earlier:
Click to access 20091129_DGAED_Servicos_BrochuraNSO.pdf
Hey Pat. Pls stay with my Call-Sign, buddy. I get “sir-ed” enough off the Blog, bwana!!. And thanks for the Link. Studied NATO in School to detail, and remember I scored pretty good. What we looked for was not the glossy stuff, but rather we probed for Weaknesses, Strengths, rigidity of structure / organization from basic /defining or underpinning philosophy to the continuous quality of boots/leadership/equipment/integration/ etc… Critique of it’s essential nature, to establish if the module is relevant still – and for us “how”. For such for a military student, has greatest relevance, in effect. That NATO is comparative the most effective Cross-Nation Armed Group of recent times is just not debatable. But…..ain’t the whole story, as I am certain you must know.
some links to supposed current status of russian rocket forces
http://russianforces.org/
I HAVE recieved unclassified but credible information that the ultimate DESIRE for the upcoming GOSS leadership after the upcoming referendum is to at first strengthen links with Kenya at very high level and eventually join the larger EAST AFRICAN community.
THEY see no future with the north and as such they are mobilizing all the south Sudanese in the diaspora to actively engage themselves WITH THIS process and vast majority are ready to JOIN east Africans in this venture.I Happened TO meet a number of their operatives in the north of England who were meeting to strategise on the upcoming self government plans.
IT seems that all these deals on weaponization by UG SUDAN ETC is a preamble in preparation for any eventuality.THE SU 30 FOR UG,THE MIG 29 for sudan and now the rumored F15 strike eagle for Kenya should
d be looked at in this prism.
@ ole Nkarei – I’m not a UG citizen, but have stayed around for some years. In all honesty, I have not met a single Ugandan, either uniformed or not, who will be able to contribute substantially to a kind of discussion we have on this site. When you start discussing strategic matters in UG, you are met with a mix of naivety and cockiness. There are many UPDF units which are good infantry, but it seems the country is still run like a large guerrilla-controlled area.
Going back to NATO. You are absolutely right that NATO has basically lost its strategic direction, and all the “transformation” stuff has not helped much. Its operational capability is still unrivaled however, and Americans/Brits are trying everything they can to improve C4ISTAR and PGM interoperability/integration. In this particular are, the French are co-operating nicely, though others are dragging their feet somewhat.
It also seems that politicians and militaries in Europe have very different perceptions and attitudes towards NATO, which is not making things easier, too.
NATO’s integrated defense plan is a sacred cow for the Alliance. It also keeps busy very many staff officers who would have nothing to do otherwise. The Ossetian War has actually helped them a lot because there’s now much less talk that the force planning process is a Cold War era dinosaur.
The whole standby/response force idea which has been picked up by AU and led to the creation of EASBRIG was initially born in the West as an ADVANCED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE concept.
It all started with the first Gulf War. Before allied forces could be deployed in SA, that country itself had to be defended in case of an Iraqi offense. For that purpose, Operation Desert Shield was launched; an expeditionary US air task force of F-15E’s was sent into SA , followed by US airborne troops.
However, it was clear that while the F-15’s proved a powerful deterrent, Western airborne/light infantry was not good enough to stand up to a mechanized force, even if the latter was less advanced.
European expeditionary capability was also realized to be inadequate.
Therefore, while Americans went ahead to experiment with various light/expeditionary force configurations first with use of JANUS software simulator, then in field exercises, the Europeans started working on a force catalog for expeditionary operations.
(There’s a funny story featuring JANUS software where it was “presented” by the US to Ghana, but Ghanians never learned how to use it.)
The EU established a “Helsinki Headline Goal” of 60,000 troops deployable within 60 days, and capable of operating independently for a year. With rotation requirements, it meant 180,000 troops, which is too much, and while the catalog is ready, the EU still has no real power projection capability. This is only made worse by airlift limitations, exacerbated by A400M delays.
In the US, in the meanwhile, force experimentation, instead of “upgraded” light forces, has produced “downgraded” airlift-capable mechanized forces, now known as Stryker brigades. The latter, despite all the good Iraqi COIN publicity, are far from the original goal of being able to take on a “true” mechanized force. The current forces mix is thus referred to as “Interim Force” in the US.
Looking at the sorry state of European efforts, the Americans in 2002 proposed the so-called NATO Response Force (NRF) which had a double advantage of being under the NATO (read: US) umbrella, and practically workable.
NRF builds on the NATO Combined Joint Task force concept with its HQ arrangement, utilizes NATO high-readiness forces (HRF), and is a tri-service (joint) task force capable of not only low-intensity operations, but also deployable as an insertion force in high-intensity secnarios, including CBRN (read: nuclear) environment.
NRF involves abt 21,000 servicemen in total, has a ground component which is a brigade-level task force with a light infantry bn, abn bn, mech bn and arty bn, plus HQ and support units. Its air component is an expeditionary air task force capable of 200 combat sorties p.d. The naval component is a carrier battle group.
The EU, feeling that NATO was gaining initiative, introduced its own concept of “EU Battlegroups” which are basically reinforced light bn task forces capable of rapid deployment in low-intensity scenarios. One such BG was actually tried in the DRC (Opeartion Artemis) in 2003.
While there are arrangements on EU-NATO co-operation, there is potential for conflict here because both draw on the same forces (NATO HRF) for their expeditionary capability.
Another example of a “rapid response force” is the CSTO Collective Rapid Reaction Force in Central Asia involving Russian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz and Tajik forces. This force is not “expeditionary”, but still a capable Russian-equipped and financed regional airborne force with good tactical an reasonable operational mobility, well-supported by the Russian Air Force. Field exercises have shown that Russia which leads the arrangement puts a lot of emphasis on interoperability and air-ground coordination – which is good.
The AU standby brigades look somewhat strange against this background. Their creation seems to be driven not by any tactical/operational considerations, but by an AU tendency to mimic the EU, and by the European proneness to finance everything that mimics themselves.
EASBRIG in particular also enjoys support of the Americans who are interested in Southern Sudanese oil and view EASBRIG as a good proxy for the future.
It is quite characteristic that if you go to the EASBRIG website, you will find a lot of diplomatic documents exposing the bulky bureaucratic-parasitic structure on top of what seems to be a very basic form of combined military arrangement, but very little info on the brigade’s ORBAT, its projected expected combat capability or deployment options/requirements.
The unit only features light infantry with hardly any organic arty, which means it cannot be used as an insertion force. Air support arrangements are unclear. Deployment options seem to be limited to chartered airlift (which means junk aircraft with merc pilots are here to stay). I also do not understand why a military observer unit of 120 observers is ORGANIC to the EASBRIG. MILOBS missions are a different thing, why band everything together?
It seems to me that unless one nation takes lead in EASBRIG (which to me is improbable), it will have little added value, and may only see use in some low-key peacekeeping missions.
That may be for the better, because it’s good to be friends with Americans, but not at a price of being their proxy.
@ Jasiri – EASBRIG is not even supposed to be used as a “PEACE ENFORCING force” except “intervention, for example, in genocide situations where the international community does not act promptly”. The latter is a legally useless definition, smuggled in, I suspect, by Rwandans who will cry “genocide” at every opportunity, especially when their cattle herds in North Kivu are at risk. Nor is EASBRIG equipped/organized to enforce peace.
@ SPIDERman
Nobody knows for sure why the need for NATO enlargement. The most plausible options are that 1) they need to keep themselves busy, and 2) the US wants to use new NATO members to keep the EU in check. In Russia, many think the purpose is to “encircle Russia with NATO bases”, but I’m far from sure.
I should also have said “conventional” when I wrote about NATO operational capabilities. Russia and the US are still on nuclear parity, but that’s subject to change as the US CBM capabilities grow, and as Russia’s Bulava SLBM program turns out to be a disaster.
You will note that in 1993, independent Russia’s first military doctrine REVERSED the old Soviet no-first-use nuclear policy. The most recent edition of this doctrine makes this first-use policy even more assertive. This is nothing but a sign of Russia’s CONVENTIONAL military weakness which has to be compensated for.
And, please don’t think of Russia and China as “friends”. Nuclear mines were only removed from the Russo-Chinese border in 1991!
Ough.. Will take a break and come back on F-15 and MiG-35..
Mugwiira. Overkill, buddy, but so very spot-on. Are you still active? There is no immediate urgency in Kenya to actualize this Standby Brigand thing at the present nor do I smell anything remotely in this direction in the next five or so years – a lot will depend on the direction that present realities on possible conflicts between states in this EAC will take. It is vital to bear in mind that the imperative of the times is trade-integration between these states, which with time provide safeguards against local low-intensity conflicts developing into mindless conflagration such as the Hutu/Tutsi Genocide of the past 100years, or expanded conflict between these states. Essentially, then, all socio-politico facets of governance have subverted to this economic objective of trade-Integration of Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya, Rwanda, Burundi, GoSS, eventually Ethiopia, DRC, Somalia. More even so, the damn thing as presently constructed makes not one Military sense at all!!
I would think the F-15E for KAF story is some sort of directed misinformation. USAF Strike Eagles will remain in service till 2025 at least, same for the Israeli F-15I’s.
MiG-35 is essentially a development of MiG-29K (carrier-based) which utilizes its reduced airframe weight to increase payload and fuel capacity. It also features an upgraded version of RD-33 engine, RD-33MK, with reduced weight, better thrust (afterburner especially), digital controls and (at last!) increased service life (the original RD-33 was a real pain in the ass in this respect, that’s why the South Africans trashed this engine when it was was considered for a Mirage-Cheetah upgrade, and never seriously considered MiG-29 for purchase).
It is indeed a very capable aircraft, especially the way the Indians want to have it, with EL/M 2052, French cockpit avionics, Israeli ECM/ECCM, but that way it will very expensive, over USD 40m/piece, which I think is not practical for a smaller country.
mugwiira
I differ with your your assumption that F15 story is sort off some disinformation tactic on this blog.EVEN though i have some suspicions that this blog has been and is being perpetuated by inteligence operatives within the region.THAT does not mean that speculative information is not accurate.
The fact is SU 30 is being considered fro UG and due to the potential change in air balance of power Kenya IS OBLIGED TO respond in kind
you HAVE TO be more assertive if you want to bring up this disinformation angle and more evidence to back p your theory.THE fact that the F15 is still a main stay US fighter is not enough since there are very many variations that have been exported to friendly regimes world over and at present the geopolitics of Kenya and USA fit that bill.
@ SPIDERman – there’s a big difference between F-15A/B/C/D, and F-15E. The latter is a different airframe, even if similar in designation/appearance. There is no country which plans to retire the latter, and new F-15E’s are just too expensive. So, unless there’s some kind of confusion here, I don’t find the idea believable..
There are only five countries operating F-15E, each with its own tailor-cut version, with an individual designation: the US (F-15E), Israel (F-15I, Israeli avionics), Saudi Arabia (F-15S, downgraded radar), South Korea (F-15K, upgraded, AESA radar) and Singapore (F-15SG, similar to F-15K).
Also, concerning your Southern Sudan report, I feel that those expecting NS to aggressively prevent SS from gaining independence, are wrong. There is no political will in NS to do this; the idea would also have little popular support (if that matters). NS, however, has its own clients in SS, and they will rather attempt to keep SS permanently unstable. What the Southern Sudanese need to think about is their own governance capacity so that they can’t be taken advantage of.
@ ole Nkarei – in standby reserve. Not in employment of any sovereign country.
Fully agree that political/military integration in EA is a pure theatrical performance on top of a more solid economic integration process. I only argue for maximum sobriety, as taking seriously things which were not intended to be serious can have dangerous consequences. In the security domain especially.
The export sales of the F-15E is strictly controlled by prohibitive EULA sanctioned by the US senate, however the same case does not apply to F-15A/B/C/D and the F-15i variant owned by the Israelis, ergo i have to admit if Kenya is in no need of a fully loaded later variant F-15. Apart from it being a case of complete overkill to acquire such an aircraft, the cost is also way prohibitive. A more feasible scenario is a toned down version of the F-15i (since the deal is said to be with the Israelis anyway). These kinds of transactions take place all the time. Take for example the Ugandan acquisition of the SU -30 which in essence is a modification of the SU-27 that the Russians built as a response to the F-15. Anyway it has since come to light that those ugandan birds cant fire the R-77 missile thus reducing their capacity to strike at range. All factors considered it is not entirely impossible for Kenya to buy F-15s. And with the abilities of this jet even the basic F-15A version we would not need a large number of them. To me the MiG 35 is more of a long shot.
THE mig 35 Could be a long shot but it the Russians can easily sell this craft faster than the American would sell the F15 which may require congress approval where by due to poor human rights record of Kenya and bad publicity there could be opposition to this deal.
Israel is looking to offload some Ra-ams so as to contribute more resources to pay off for the second batch of 50 F-35s set to arrive late 2012.
D, please note in Israel F-35’s are set to replace F-16’s, not F-15’s. They are not replacing F-15I’s (Ra’am) in the nearby future. First F-16’s, then F-15A/B/C/D, then F-15I. Even in the US, it is not clear what will replace F-15E’s and when. I’m sure come 2030 they will still be in service..
The F-35’s will not be delivered till late 2014 at best.
A UMBER OF F15 have been known to have serious structuaral problems leading to crashes
THERE have been more than 13 incidents involving these planes including one where the plane broke apart while in flight over the state of Missouri leading to grounding of similar craft.
see attached links-
http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2007/12/major-structural-problems-keep-f-15.html
THEREFORE if Kenya is to buy these craft as said they must ensure they are not more junks which have had historical problems.
I ALSO note that there have been some discussions elsewhere on this rumored purchase …please check out the MaSHADA forumns on the subject which was never concluded
THE LINK BELOW should read a “number” not “umber”
my link ON JULY 3 AT 1050 AM SHOWED AL the F15 variants to date and for your information Kenya can afford these birds..all that is needed is the leadership commitment.
i still stand by my postings on the last comment.
this blog has been running for the same subject for two years now and still there is no conclusion…so either it is a massive disinformation racket at play or just some low level activity at manipulation of views at play by some players..but for now this line of bloging may be counterproductive.i will revisit this later .
No disinformation, buddy, tis the real thing. Your skepticism on this equipment-transfer, Mugwiira, is not based any contemporary strategic analysis, I assure you. Certainly, this sort of thing runs counter to established and known positions, but that ignores that the Geo-political map has altered considerably in the past two years. Second biggest consumer of Hydrocarbons in now China, though the USA still consumes roughly 60% of total output. The Saudi sands running out in about 30 years, and little progress to phase out this dependence on Hydrocarbons despite the Obama Hype. Factor in that even the demand for industrial minerals is not any longer traditional, what with this Space-Age consumerism and that practically all of these are concentrated around the Great lakes region in unimaginable quantities.. The Resource-chase changed and heightened by realities that have also altered. Way i hear tell is that the F-15E would cover the Greater EAC including the expected entrants of Ethiopia, Somalia and GoSS. Also explains both the numbers envisaged and the delivery dates for the first batch. Talk is that they will not exactly be the souped-up version main-stay birds in use with the USAF but substantially superior to whatever variants the Arms merchants of the East (Ukraine, Russian, and China) are able to off-load to any players this region. Keep sniffing, you might validate this info, Mugwiira. Are you into some private outfit operating in the Great lakes area? Probably with GoSS?
OLE NKERAI…..FROM MUGWIIRA s POSTINGs on this blog one can deduce that his former military orientation was/is basically eastwards and he is probably still serving as he stated somewhere that he a Leutenant ,,,,very few officers retire or leave their commissions at that stage unless for other reasons.
i have thrown a deep feeler here in the diaspora and elsewhere and it seems the F15 discussion has been ongoing for a while and the acquisition of the F5 WAS INdeed a stop gap measure
bearing in mind the historical military connections between KENYA and the on goings activities regarding war on terror …theF15 deal should never be discounted.
here below is a list of USA arms sales to selected countries including Kenya 2006 and 2007
i have excluded 2008 and 2009 for obvious reasons will give you more links later for current and years 2002 up to year 2005.this list is not exhaustive but should serve as an indicator to the kind of deals Kenya Does WHEN IT out sources for military equipement.
http://www.newamerica.net/publications/policy/u_s_weapons_war_2008_0
http://newamerica.net/publications/policy/u_s_arms_recipients_2006_07_africa
@ ole Nkarei
I apologize if my “disinformation” statement appeared personal. It was not intended that way.
It seems I would need to clarify the reasons why I doubt the information on F-15’s.
The story is not very new indeed, even on this site, but there are some important details which were introduced in your post on July 3, 2010 at 9:18 am:
1. 35 units
2. F-15E Strike Eagle
3. Delivery Nov 2010
Source: “heady talk”, “Planning circles at MoD”.
From the phrase: “also of shave-off delivery of some ex-IAF similar designation and Units with a similar date-line too” – I deduce that both these 35 units and the suggested ex-IAF additions are PRE-OWNED.
I’ve had a lengthy discussion with SPIDERman, and did my best to show that:
1. The F-15E is a different airframe as compared to F-15A/B/C/D, therefore the latter cannot be converted to the former.
2. There are no nations which have plans or motivation to retire/sell their F-15E’s.
Therefore, the message AS IT IS is highly improbable to be correct. Either there is a confusion/distortion somewhere (wrong F-15 version?), or your source was not truthful (for whatever reason).
Just wanted to explain why I have remained skeptical towards this particular piece of information. It’s not on the grounds of strategic analysis. I’m not in the “it’s impossible because it’s impossible” camp!
Even though no nation plans to retire any of its F15 until 2015 to 2025 THERE IS PLENTY of surplus stock with many SQUADRONs… already taking delivery of the F22 and some active units scaled down in some states and with a lifetime production of over 1400 units produced there are man F15 E in storage across bases in the USA and Isrea..l. so exporting some at short notice is no big dea.l
SPIDERman,
PLEASE MIND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN F-15 AND F-15E!
They may not be as different as F-18 and F-18E/F, but they still pretty different.
am rering to F15 E and all variants
PARDON THE ERROR AGAIN I MEAN REFERING AND NOT RERING which means something totally different….
35 f15s of whatever version seem incredibly ambitious and not credible given that in the past the number of fighter jets kenya procured were very minimal.Not at one time did kenya procure such a high number of jets and given the cost,its wild to think that kenya can come that close.Think of it this way,Kenya has about 38 fighter jets that’s in service counting the f5s procured from jordan.What shift in millitary thinking would make them double this number with such highly touted f15s.It basically means procuring a number of jets that outnumbers all jets kenya has owned since independence.
Significant to note that f 15 is not a far fetched idea what i challenge is the numericals.If uganda can afford Sus kenya affording f15 is not far fetched but not 35 of them.
WELLCOME anonymous critic
part of the reason we need to modify and modernize the KAF
airforce is partly outlined by the attached link which actually is outdated and not accurate.
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/cafrsu/kenys120.html
Welcome aboard, Anonymous Critique. I didn’t take offense at all Mugwiira, nothing offensive in your very elucidate postulations on this touchy subject. The skepticism about this transfer is understandable if one looks at it from the conventional lenses. But like Spearman appropriately points out, there is plenty of these units available in the USA, from Formations taken delivery of the newer Raptors and other similarly designated Airframes, and from Units yet undelivered and held in reserves for whatever reasons. The IAF for one is off-loading to take in a newer inventory with projected deliveries early March 2011. As for the number of Units rumored – 70 Birds, the contention that these may be outlandish speculations is really not borne out of a careful study of the realities that arise of a beefed up EAC, which will attract the good and the bad in equal measure. Certainly, the effects of Economic (and some level of Political concordance too) will be felt and assessed far beyond the borders of the Great Lakes. Ergo – Threat Matrix has facing Kenya in the new Geo-political realities present and envisaged has clearly outgrown such consideration as the previous ToR and Weapon-Acquisition of the KAF. Strategic considerations are not just informed by Historical factors alone.
SPOT
ON ole nkarei
KENYA has been considering many options while shopping for aircraft and even considered the FC1 EARLY 2009…BUT the su30 deal by ug changed all that
THE CHINESE were to supply these in exchange of fishing rights of unspecified time frame..which was too ambitious for the rest of east african coast due to in ability to police and customize this kind of activity at sea and also the somali pirate phenomenon along the east african coast made this ” buy the jets for fish” deal a very daunting and unviable preposition for NOW.NO fisherman are willing to risk being hostages.
http://www.armybase.us/2009/01/fc-1-jf-17-is-the-most-popular-chinese-military-exports-to-africa/
does any one know how many HAWKS are still in service for the KAF? THIS information seems missing
mugwiira…anonymous critique
those F15 eagles INTENDED acquisition makes sense when looked at that Kenya expanded its claim of the sea coast by submitting CLAIM IN 2009 FOE MORE nauticle miles of the indian ocean
we need o be able to defend these ares robustly as well and F 15E S CONFIGURED FOR maritime patrol are THE IDEAL CRAFT.
at the moment we are using two pairs of F5 TO PATROL THE area ..but it is not effective.
see attached link-
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/naval/jni/jni090630_1_n.shtml
BRAZIL SAYS IT ALL HERE kenya is in a region where she needs TO EXERT ECONOMIC influence and power in the region….
You should ask for some Super Tucano’s with a 50% discount!
Kenya and Brazil operate different type of Tucanos
TORORO
SEEDLONG
there was time when we fall out with Tororo over time zones in the USA ..i hope he is now ready to listen to the voice of reason and agree that there was something not right by perhaps looking at this link for information purposes..
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/time-zones.htm
Our Fly-boys gone AWOL, got cold-feet? Kinda ominous, I should imagine, considering the subject now on the table, eh? Logical deductive suppositions all part of this game. Anyway, two things preoccupy planners, one being the muscled incredible potential of an Trade-integrated EAC in both resources and markets for in-board products, and the imminent and diminishing returns in further investments in the traditional Hydrocarbons sources of the middle east – whatever is there has been taken already, and we are witnessing a cut-throat chase to ensure continuity of socio-economic growth with clear protagonists drawn between the newly developed/ing and the old developed. This transfer is but a statement of Intent, a claim to the wider EAC Resource-base, and we need to see it for just what it is.
KINDA of wondering where these glorious fly boys are as well. …too shocked at the developments or what?we really some inputs from them…there is lots of material posted for them to digest and deliberate…
Talk about these birds being exorbitant and therefore unsuited for our purposes, are shallow in consideration. Not withstanding that the Strike Eagle is cheaper than the SU30MKK by about Ksh 80Million per Unit, a cost-benefit analysis of the Strike Eagle beats the SU30MKK hands down( and I aint a fly-boy). Moreover, a lot many other considerations would determine suitability, not least of which would be the triangulations of our strategic relationships with the source of the various competing Suppliers of the Airframes. Kenya will not be cutting off strategic linkages of her Future from that of the USA any time soon regardless of our politico class and the fourth estate antics, nor the Armoured Units procured recently from the East – though the Ukraine is only “East” by historical reference anyway this days.
Numbers only:
Vietnam is getting its Su-30MK2 package at abt US$45m/piece.
F-15K(SG) package cost South Korea (Singapore) abt US$105m/piece.
Kenya’s defense budget 2009: US$581m.
Military assistance US to Kenya 2002 thru 2009: US$84m.
In traditionally defined terms, there’s no “East” or “West” these days.
But the multipolar world is here. And it’s not going to be nice. It’s not absolutely cool to be friends with the US anymore, but you can’t be friends with China either because they will chew you and spit you out.
It’s Year 1880 again.
@ SPIDERman – KAF BAE Hawk 52’s are not to be seen these days. I am not an insider, so obviously can’t know for sure, but as far as I understand, they are grounded because an engine overhaul is needed, but it’s very expensive, and the funds have not been budgeted for.
The airframe life of these Hawks is also expiring this year. It may be extended, but again after a major overhaul – which is expensive, too.
Considering the costs involved, it may make more sense to just replace the Hawks.
You’re absolutely right to raise this issue, because IMHO, from force structure standpoint, new AJT’s are a more pressing KAF requirement than new fighters. No use bringing new fighters only to be crashed just because you have no advanced trainers to train your pilots.
True what you say Ole Nkarei about Ukraines ideological leanings. You will recall the intrigues that preceded Viktor Yushenko and his orange revolution’s accent to power. At one time he was even poisoned and shock and behold a former Russian KGB agent was apprehended and tried for it. There is also a pull and tag over the Russian black sea naval fleet which is docked at Ukranian waters. Kweli flyboys wako wapi?
D,
Your information on the Ukraine is not correct, especially where this hapless chap’s “poisoning” is concerned. Try to check with other sources than CNN! ))
Spiderman
The issue on time zones is kinda complicated especially if you live in the time zones that I didn’t mention. i.e Eastern , Central and pacific. The MT is big but not given enough prominence. What I mean is say the president is to give a national address- it will be announced that it will be at 9pm EST/6 pacific or 9 EST/7 Central on National TV or website, so it is up to the people who don’t leave in the mentioned time zones to figure out what time it will be for them locally. And it is for this reason that I also don’t put any emphasis on the “minor” time zones. I have even missed flights because of these different time zones. The whole thing is even getting complicated because before PCs would automatically adjust the time when it was spring forward or back but for the last three years they kind of changed the “springing” date so with me I just wait for the announcement on TV or at work _ I really don’t care since it only happens twice a year.
Mugwiira, your assumption is that these birds are a one-off payment on a one-off delivery. That is utterly incorrect. The figures you quote are gleaned from sites that also serve to obfuscate facts to specific ends – also factually incorrect. Your information on the Hawks in KAF is also but intelligent conjecture, sadly not borne by facts. Furthermore the CNN has been an aggressive agent of American Military / Intelligence Manipulation of American Masses for decades – which allows them to massacre and continue the mindless massacre of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghan men and woman without any noticeable moral backlash developing from their supposedly civilised population. Surely you do not mean that an worldly-aware and educated African like “D” and the rest of us should source vital / sensitive information from the CNN?
@TORORO
ok man it seems now for once we are at least on the same page….
@ole nkarei
I THINK buddy you ve misunderstood comrade mugwiira…it seems he was advising “D” on the negative perspectives of relying on the CNN
HE SEEMS TO SAY cnn is not the best news source
HOWEVER i totally agree with you that the bauk of western media has been employed to manipulate events to suit a particular purposes
NOW the best of these IS THE Rupert Murdoch news empire run via news corp..
HERE in the UK they vertually orchestrated a news agenda that send britain to war agaist massive public anti war sentiments
more recently the same news machine run a massive campaign to drive labour out of power …as you know they own the sky news juggernaut ,a host massive circulation dailys and tabloids whose every day leading news items were to hammer the labour leadership and it worked
IN the US we have the fox news network,and you know that they even bought the dow jones index and since then hardly a day passes without the indexes reading negative numbers
The same news machine is at the frontline in driving the mass military industrial complex that is still vastly perpetuating dominance of all key events that ensure that this compex is in constant state osf production
and dominace of world affairs
@mugwiira and @”D”
THE issue of ukraine has come full circle..in that the prevoius regime that came to power via the so called orange revolution through manipulation by western interests has finally been rendered mute
The current leadership has opted to use a multi pronged approach and is keeping close ties with RUSSIA and has renewd the black sea fleet base contract for a furtrher 25 years…against steep opposition with the prowestern forces
This alone makes it very hard for UKRAINE TO JOIN nato Iin the near future
for matter at home the F15E saga for kenya will soon play out i hear ..most likely soon after the current political dispensation on 4th of august.
The only skeptism i see is that there is no money factured in the recent budget for any rise on military expenditure and perhaps on that score mugwiira may be right to conclude that this is a red herring desigend for disinfor mation puroses…
EVEN THOUGH i still beg to differ
@TORORO
ok man it seems now for once we are at least on the same page….
@ole nkarei
I THINK buddy you ve misunderstood comrade mugwiira…it seems he was advising “D” on the negative perspectives of relying on the CNN
HE SEEMS TO SAY cnn is not the best news source
HOWEVER i totally agree with you that the bauk of western media has been employed to manipulate events to suit a particular purposes
NOW the best of these IS THE Rupert Murdoch news empire run via news corp..
HERE in the UK they vertually orchestrated a news agenda that send britain to war agaist massive public anti war sentiments
more recently the same news machine run a massive campaign to drive labour out of power …as you know they own the sky news juggernaut ,a host massive circulation dailys and tabloids whose every day leading news items were to hammer the labour leadership and it worked
IN the US we have the fox news network,and you know that they even bought the dow jones index and since then hardly a day passes without the indexes reading negative numbers
The same news machine is at the frontline in driving the mass military industrial complex that is still vastly perpetuating dominance of all key events that ensure that this compex is in constant state osf production
and dominace of world affairs
@mugwiira and @”D”
THE issue of ukraine has come full circle..in that the prevoius regime that came to power via the so called orange revolution through manipulation by western interests has finally been rendered mute
The current leadership has opted to use a multi pronged approach and is keeping close ties with RUSSIA and has renewd the black sea fleet base contract for a furtrher 25 years…against steep opposition with the prowestern forces
This alone makes it very hard for UKRAINE TO JOIN nato Iin the near future
for matter at home the F15E saga for kenya will soon play out i hear ..most likely soon after the current political dispensation on 4th of august……while
i think the last time the HAWKS were seen in public flight formation was 2002….and currently they saidto be in storage…..??
The only skeptism i see is that there is no money factured in the recent budget for any rise on military expenditure and perhaps on that score mugwiira may be right to conclude that this is a red herring designed for disinfor mation purposes…
EVEN THOUGH i still beg to differ….
Mugwirira – my apologies. I forgot to look, jumped, got shot in the process. Hot-headed fools gets you killed dead, how often I heard this adage! Owe you a cold Tusker, mate! Anytime you want o collect.
Pat, the birds’ procurement, as with such huge Military Hardware procurement, will be either ( 0r both of) long-term vendor-guaranteed easy credit-lines, or bilateral arrangements which will both obviate necessity to crush our budget-structure and also (importantly) ensure delivery of batches of these birds entirely unrelated to capacity to procure. Bear in that this transfer is not essentially an arms purchase – there are self-interests on both side being served by this transaction! And some of the Units will not have plastic covers on them to warrant the Price-tags of factory-new. It is do-able and infact practical and logical response to the unique challenges we envisage to preoccupy our attentions going forward next 20 years.
guys i have been trying to dog every nook and crany for the f-15 rumours but havent got exact responce.
i believe this post is not just a mere public relation to counter check the recent procument by m7 on the sukhos(su-30mk2)
myself am not s ure but if indeed this gonna be true then,the arms race has just begun in east africa.
anyone with link regarding to this info. plz?
Two other Kenyan helicopters in the same zone were also fired on and the windshield of one of them was hit. On 9 January Kenyan helicopters participated in an air raid against Somalian Islamists in Hayi. A ground fight also took place around Amuna between Kenyan soldiers and Somalian Islamists who were trying to cross the border. The Kenyan ministry of defence sent reinforcements to the border crossing points at Amuna, Liboi and Hulugho. Newsflash alert sent to subscribers on 16.1.2007.The Kenyan government has given strict instructions that no information on Kenya`s direct involvement in this conflict should be leaked to the press. The Kenyan military intelligence services have also asked Kenyan diplomats to deny reports that a rocket from an Ethiopian aircraft aimed at a column of Islamists in the South of Somalia had crashed into Kenyan territory.
i found this intresting,some of operations taken by the army covertly.
Chinook, buddy,you got it backwards. The SU30MKK’s are essentially a reactive ploy, a knee-jerk type reactionary response by M7 to what has been in motion now for quite a while, unknown to him earlier, and which he gravely fears is potentially an imminent runaway situation for him. The balance of terror has not been in his favour any time in the past, but these birds, the T-72, the meatier Air Calv, the beefier Airborne Abilities, the expanded Airlift and Troop Carrier abilities, the Deltas and other infiltration-tasked formations, direct conversion of previously paramilitary-type civilian formations in the Armed Forces , heightened Command /Control/ Communication Military Structure, aggressor Intel- and Counter-Intel, recent declaration of the EZ on Indian Ocean, M7’s loss of pre-eminence and influence on future events in GoSS, GoSS’s increasing inter-active interface with Kenya, Expansion of Economy and growth in Trade, ect. Heck…the list goes on. That is why the numbers of these SU40MK2 are so token, man – not catch-up, else the numbers received and expected to be delivered would have been substantively more than just those now rumoured. And then we would know of concrete, written-down delivery agreements, a paper-trail that would validate these intentions. And then we would be running around like a sick chicken playing catch-up by any means including smoke-and-thunder type of reactive activities!!!
According to information obtained in Nairobi by The Indian Ocean Newsletter from a Kenyan military intelligence officer, the Ethiopian army had indeed been accompanied by American military advisors when it went into Somalia. One or two advisors were affected to each Ethiopian platoon command and enabled to improve the coordination of the forces combating the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC). These advisors were from the American Special Forces (the Delta Force commandos) under the orders of the Pentagon Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC). They have sophisticated communications equipment enabling them to receive orders from American military vessels sailing off the coast of Somalia. Before the conflict, the military intelligence services of Kenya, Ethiopia and the United States had drawn up a list of the forces, equipment and positions of the UIC militia, which they had tended to overestimate.
Kenya was subsequently the only IGAD country to have advance information of the air raids against the Islamists in south Somalia. American and Kenyan aid, and not only in military intelligence, has been indispensable in ousting the Somalian Islamists from the Ras Kamboni zone where they had taken refuge. After the air raid by an American AC-130, an American Special Forces commando was sent on the ground to support the Ethiopian army. At the same time, the Kenyan air force intervened using unmarked helicopters to oust Islamist militia hidden in the forest around Ras Kamboni. It was then only after a bloody battle that the Ethiopian army managed to defeat the Somalian islamists, by that time completely surrounded.
this article i got from a source that was privy to somalia operations
@ chinook – it has since long been a standard procedure for the US to send in Ranger/Delta forces to do forward reconnaissance for “allied” troops. It’s funny that the very guys whom they led in Afghanistan against the Red Army, have taken over these tactics, and are now on the opposite side in Somalia leading HSM forces.
The US did it in the DRC for UPDF/RDF, and they are doing it for UPDF in the CAR.
During the 1st Congo War, US special operation forces on several occasions came into visual contact with the French commandos who were there as “advisors” to FAZ.
The US SPECOPS forces would however rarely engage in actual combat to avoid exposure of US involvement. The latter would be a PR disaster like it was in Ossetia where the Russian Army came upon a dead US “ex”-Ranger, and paraded his passport on TV.
I wonder whether HSM has managed to lay their hands on some SAM’s by now. In an air defense saturated environment, the AC-130 is a disaster which it has proven to be in Vietnam.
THERE is No indication that the HSM in HORN OF AFRICA has acquired any sams and if that happens am sure the will be some serious repercussions for them from all the big guns in the region
THERE is No indication that the HSM in HORN OF AFRICA has acquired any sams and if that happens am sure there will be some serious repercussions for them from all the big guns in the region
Those chaps in the ranger units in KA wil definately take them out..
Old stuff, Chinook, Mugwiira, check the blog from the top, on this thread and also on “UG battle-hardened etc..” there is some open and to detail posts on this to depth early this year. Quite a number of Uniforms in Kenya have first-hand licks into this confusion around the Great Lakes since 1993. But on the Somali Theater, guys, there are still chaps on the ground around there and I am loathe to put too much out in the open about goings-on there just now, eh, Chinook?
Mugwira, sharp looking out mate. But my info was not necessarily gleaned off CNN though i have to admit it is from a public source hence prone to errors due to certain interests though not CNN. Thing is something DID happen to the chap and it was not of natural causes. True there has been a change of guard in that particular former soviet republic but the fact is Yushenko was openly anti Kremlin.
Its is in fact true that the SU 30s were indeed a counter to what Kenya started, the numbers, capabilities and timing of acquisition of these particular birds says this. 6 aircraft is barely half a squadron, broken down to the regular lead/wingman combat flight formation you have 3 elements, basic military doctrine implies that you should keep at least 1/3 of your total force in reserve. If M7 does that only 4 SU-30s will be up there, against the heavier numbers of F-5s i think they are easily overwhelmed in aerial battle. Unless they are meant not as air superiority fighters but for AWACs or high speed, precision ground attack role. But hey am not a fly boy just thinking out loud.
Somalia still is a hot spot where things change by the minute. Lets not give the bad guys ammo….
Off to earn my keep. R & R over. I reckon i stirred up the pot some, eh? Keep the it burning, and please don’t call the CAS too close least you burn the chaps in-theatre. This whole region froths with action, and lotsa boots on the ground in a variety of places working for you. Generalities and intelligent suppositions is all that is needed, really – any person can fill in the blanks themselves, so please keep it calm. Catch up in couple of weeks.
D,
The exact causes of this poisoning were never established, neither by criminal investigators, nor by the panel established by the Ukrainian parliament.
The US media however, were smart to always put “poisoning” and “anti-Kremlin” close together, which made the conclusion seem obvious to many.
The man you referred to as a “Russian KGB agent” was in fact the chief of Ukraine’s own security service at whose country home Yushenko dined the day before his poisoning. Just think of it – an opposition presidential candidate meeting the the country’s security chief privately ONE WEEK before the election. Smells conspiracy, doesn’t it?
This story has escaped CNN’s (BBC’s, Sky’s) attention completely, whereas the point that Yushenko was an anti-Russian (indeed) democrat (indeed?) was hammered into everyone’s head.
Mugwira,
These things always have a hidden link in them. Thing is if you warent direct part of the dirty job youll never know what really happened. Hell even personnel taking part in different stages of the same black op rarely see the whole picture…security in ambiguity. Eg am more of a recce and observe chap, all i do is look and report then let guys like Ole Nkarei do the spade work. Point is anyway someone clearly had ulterior motives in this matter knowing which side is which is the real test. Am glad am not a member of that Ukranian parliament panel or any of those criminal investigators. Sometimes its better not to know. But your angle manes lots of sense.
Belated summary
I am not Awol wazee, kazi mingi
1.Spiderman: SPIDERman, on July 6, 2010 at 11:16 am Said:
A UMBER OF F15 have been known to have serious structuaral problems leading to crashes
the F-15 structure is not that bad have you seen this clip.
2. mugwiiraits Israel will disposing most of its Eagles after it acquires 100 pieces of F-22A/F-35. With the F-22A its capabilities will be catapulted far ahead. Although the F-22 is not a replacement of the F-15 its capabilities surpass it by far. i.e if you had an F-22 you wouldn’t need a F-15. when N.korea started its mischievous games of lunch missile across Japan. The USAF sent about 12 F-22. That was enough for air superiority fighter against N.Korea.
3. anonymous critique i its not the first time Kenya has bought equipments that can be referred to as “rare” or at the time procurement , were owned by few countries in Africa.
Navy
Gabriel missile unveiled in 1962 went into service in kenya in 1976 jamuhuri class vessels the only african country to have it at that time.
Airforce
Short Tucano unveiled in 1989 enter service Royal air force same year and in Kenya 1991 only country in africa.
Hawk Mk 50 unveiled in 1977 entered in service K.A.F in 1980 the first african country
Dash 8 unveiled in 1984 service to KAF in 1990 the only african country
Z-9 gunship. The only country in African
Army
Vickers Tank Kenya and Nigeria in africa
MD500 only country in africa
Nora B-52 only country in africa
Most of the equipments posted above were regarded as High valued items at time of procurements
. It will not be the first time to double a inventory i.e 35 F-15 against existing 25 F-5 pieces. They has be previous double or more procurements then what is in the armories examples. 110 T-72 against 70 Vickers , 120 Russian/ Chinese IFV against 50 pieces that we had
nothing is imposible
welcome risasi
Are u confirming too that indeed KAF are acquiring the 35 birds?.does the procument gonna be for new birds or used like ex -jordan?
Bye the way,i have been in mombasa for a week now and my ears are defening by the roaring sounds of the f-5s every day. i wonder weather they are in normal test flight or its a reconnaissence going on seemly along kenya -somalia border or may along the coast line,thats for u risasi
sorry,i ment by the way not bye in my second paragraph
Chinook, I plead with you to drop this fixation you seem to have with the Somali Theatre. This sort of chatter is dangerous and worrisome, and completely unnecessary, the sort of stuff that in-theatre chaps dread. What is it witcha what is going on there that keeps you slobbering about Somalia like this, mate? Did you not hear the Al-Queda has started an On-line ENGLISH NEWSPAPER, for crying out loud? The most sophisticated and organised hidden enemy the world has ever seen, and you reckon them to be stupid Bedouins seating under some desert camel tent in the Ogaden? The Twin-towers came down ten years ago, and Al-Queda grows and stands stronger every year despite the murderous violence thrown against them by the most powerful and relentlessly brutal Military Power the world has ever known. Unless you are looking for a body-count, your brothers in body-bags, please stick with the generalities and intelligent suppositions. Come on, kenyans, let this line of inquiry go, and if you cannot then sniff around quietly with your pals presently serving! Stuff that is currently going on regarding what the Uniforms are doing anywhere requires integrity against compromise; But stuff we have done in the past is unlikely to lead to a body-count unless from very vindictive and murderous chaps (and we know how to deal with them too!), Eh, buddy?!! See you soon, hopefully.
This blog reminds me of a sensible joke that I recently shared with an American college mate. we were discussing the latest spy swap between the Russian and the Americans and the Dismissal of a General McChrystal from Afganistan among other current affiars.
The joke is called “The Cat Discovered the Bird Under the Pile of Cow Dung”
And this is how it goes.
A little bird was flying during a breezily winter. It got so cold that the bird froze and fell to the ground. While it was lying there, contemplating about his misfortune and iminate death a cow comes by and dropped some dung on it. the birds Curses and tells himself what a disgraceful state his death will be in. As it lay there in the pile of cow dung, it begins to realize how warm it was. The dung was actually warming him up! He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy.
A passing cat heard the little bird singing, and came to investigate. the cat discovered that under the pile of dung lies a bird. the cat promptly dug him out-and ATE HIM.
The morals of the story are:
1. Not everyone who drops $hit on you is your enemy.
2. Not everyone who gets you out of $hit is your friend.
3. When you’re in deep $hit, keep your mouth shut!
They chinook they no problem in the grammar bye or by as long as we understanding each other. at time we are in a hurry to pass a message. I am not confirming the F-15 deal but the General staff always discuses on ways forward and future weapons of each units. Previous Proposals have been made like CN-235 , C-295 ,C-130, F-16, Alpha jets, K-8, Aero L-159, relegated USN fighters F-14 or F/A-18, JF-17 vs JF-17 II (check it out guys it looks promising).
are you in uniform? You have precise info.ask surgical questions and are always at the right place at the right time. The tigers at the coast are performing touch and go by maneuver and sea trials. but when was that again. So tell me about mtongwe under what auspices were you in until they array the fleet for your inspection? What did you see in the inspection? Leaking pipes broke doors or bare electric wires smoky engines what did you see. I would like to get your story.
And secondly to Mugwiira, on July 7, 2010 at 7:08 pm the cost of used aircrafts from a reputable country will not be as you quoted. The price you posted are from The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) show rooms .And good example is the cost 15 F-5 from Jordan.
Used is fine, but as I mentioned earlier, that should be F-15A/B/C/D, not F-15E, because nobody is retiring the latter, neither the US or Israel.
F-15A/B/C/D are being replaced by the F-22 in the USAF inventory, but they are not being retired from IAF because the F-35 is set to replace the F-16’s, not the F-15’s.
FYI, Israel has not ordered any F-22’s, they may never be able to get these, just like Japan. The “real” F-22 is prohibited from export, and while the Israelis and the Japanese have been pushing for a downgraded F-22EX version, Boeing has not produced it.
As the F-35 is not really suitable for long-range intercept and deep strike missions, they may eventually end up with something like F-15SE Silent Eagle instead.
The stealth capabilities of the F-15SE and the F-35 are not at par. The F-35 is still way ahead in this department though its range and payload are wanting compared to the F-22A and F-15 of any designation. I also have not been able to gather any info on Israel getting the F-22 but as these things go am sure the will eventually its just a matter of the right “things” falling into place….loudly!!
Still on the topic of airforce acquisitions i hear from little tweety bird that the Hongdu L-15 is under evaluation by some flyboys as a possible replacement for the Hawk 52. Basically a couple of our guys may be over there test flying them as we speak.
D,
I just wonder why spend money on a crude copy (L-15) if you can buy the original (Yak-130 / Aermacchi M346)?
Mugwiira, i wouldn,t use the word NEVER it comes to isreal vs US relations.
Secondly the F-15A/B/C/D (known as Baz in the isreali AF) are air superiority fighters while the F-15E is the same with ground attack capabilities.
The F-15E has two seats a pilot and a Weapon Systems Officer, conformal fuel tanks mounted along the engine intakes, Dark camouflage for the USAF. there several variants the Strike. the F-15i Ra am isreali, F-15K Slam Eagle S.Korea and the F-15s for the Royal Saudi. For some reason the US imposed a limit on 25 F-15E to the isrealis and 70 pieces to the Saudis. crap policy.
Another Eagle has been released and its export license will be released by the end of this month (july). Its called the F-15SE. Silent Eagle.it is semi stealth i.e radar-absorbent material and has an internal weapons carriage. this will be the replacements or and enhancements for Airforce that operate the F-15A/B/C/D and E (Strike Eagle). Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan, and South Korea, among others new customers. Royal Saudi has made an intrest in it and is very high in the negotiating table. Isreal is still skeptical and will prefer a full stealth aircraft
What isreal would needs which ever way you look at it is the structure a downgrade F-22. this wouldl be fine to them. With there creativity avionics wouldn’t be a problem and you will start reading about F-22i’s. it would be a match for the real F-22 due to lark of researching funds but it will be somewhere above the Eagles. The ball of contention comes across when the Saudis got there F-15, five E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft and eight KE-3 refueling aircraft and now the Silent Eagle is with horizons’. This makes them per with Israel and have a numerical advance aircraft advantage. The two nations don’t intend to fight but Its very easy for Iranians to infiltrate Saudi and learn more on the F-15/AWACS /KE-3 sorties which will be the core operation when Israel strikes Tehran.
See how the iranians are confident on preemptive strike against them by isreal and why isreal has delayed the strike on the nuclear plants in iran. The story goes on and on. again I am not concluding an F-15 deal In kenya but merely correcting facts. Some isreali F-15 might be on offer sooner rather the latter and will attract many clients.
http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-9784-israelnews-israel-eyes-f-22-raptor
Iran fields the strong ToR M1 air defense system with S-300 missiles as its air defense backbone. The Israelis are wary of that. This thing has massive capabilities.
http://defense-update.com/products/t/tor.htm
Stealth is a good way to defeat it though. Thats maybe one of the reason they are holding out for the F-22. Remember Iran is the west’s sewage waste. They all would like to deal with but the stench from stirring up that muck puts them off. Coming too soon after the Afghanistan/Iraq debacle i doubt the US are going to do anything about Iran, militarywise that is. If they need a bogey man for the job Israel fits the bill, they have their own agenda against Iran problem is if they sell them stealth capabilities that will soon after be used against Iran it could raise a whole lot of public relations headaches for them with china and russia. Note that Israel has been quick to deal with anyone who even talks of Israels demise. Ahmadinejad (sp) didnt help matters much with his wipe Israel off the map comment, to me it tells alot Israel has taken this long to respond.
About the L-15 Mugwiira, i sort of thought the same thing but quickly realized its just an evaluation, it might be an arms for something else deal and maybe the L-15 isnt that bad. It being a copy doesn’t necessarily make it crude.
I was under the impression that the US congress had voted to stop any sales of the F22 TO ANY FOREIGN nations including Israel
ANYWAY as long as the war in Afghanistan is ongoing….the Americans are not willing to see another war front starting in the middle east..FOR NOW
SPIDERman
I also don’t see any foreseeable war between tha Arab states and Israel. But what make the Israelis nervous is the fact that Saudi has a numerical advantage F-15 and the U.A.E has the best Blocks of F-16. The problem will be if the Israel gets the F-22 which the US can indeed sell why shouldn’t the other close allies have it too.
On regards to the Iranian/Israeli warfare during Operation Orchard the booming of an empty desert areas Shaldag special forces were also used, it was alleged that the Syrians had be supplied with advance Radars from Iran I think the S-300. this was a dress rehearsall to test them by isreal. And it passed in flying colours. This send strong signals to Iran on its airdefences.
D.
The Guizhou JL-9 Mountain Eagle and L-15 Falcon will be reviewed. This is a routine review. We need an operational first jet training squadron and program that is pocket friendly. Hawk spare are sold in sterling pounds.
The mountain eagles armament capabilities look impressive…to me its more suited for a COIN/Light Attack role than jet training.
I find it hard to think that Israel would want to own both the F-35 and the F-22 at the same time. Especially considering that the F-35 was developed as a way to reduce uncle sam’s allies interest in the raptor. However i dont think the F-35 can go toe to toe with the PAK T-50 reports indicate despite many an american’s denial that the T-50 would show the F-22 dust.
I would like to send my condolences to or Ug brothers over the booming incident. Like I told the blog members this terrorist are only 2000Ksh bus fares from our capitals. this ops are better done covertly with clean hands. Its unfortunate Ug has to pay the price for being peacekeepers. May those innocent souls rest in peace.
Hey Para Chap you seem to be familiar with aerial warfare. one thing I can say is that people shouldn’t be in a hurry to procure fighter aircrafts. I feel so because once the F-15SE and the F-35 will be in the west they will be a lot of good stuff laying around for good friends to buy. I feel emerging economies like India, Brazil etc will now settle for stealth or semi stealth fighters this will reduce the demands of 4th generation fighters. India made a mistake it shouldn’t have placed large order on 4th generation fighter as they seem to be getting obsolete in those spheres faster then they enter services. Russia will offer the PAK T-50 a very low price. We haven’t talked about china which I know will make a copy at half the price. Let’s see what transpires. Good day
Stealth,super cruise,short take off, super maneuverability….the 4s of the lethal fighter. A summary look at most 4th – 4.5 generation fighters shows that most of them are capable of between 2-3 of the above with stealth being the common hold back in this class of fighters. We wouldnt do badly with short take off capabilities and super maneuverability in the form of thrust vectoring in our hangars. Risasi you are right in a few years time 4th generation jets will be very affordable for us….The Dasault Rafale is not attracting any buyers so far from the export market. Once the French have the F-35 they might want to offload some of the used ones they have.
Risasi aerial warfare is an interest out of my worst fear of aerial bombardment out there in the field. Id rather face hails of bullets, tanks and mortar that a well aimed free fall bomb. Those things give me the eebie jeebies.
D,
Concerning the L-15, there’s yet no full info abt this AJT, but I would be cautious abt its capability judging by the difficulties the Chinese have with their J-10 and J-11B programs.
The J-10 has had numerous delays because of poor component quality/reliability. The J-11B, even despite being almost exact copy of Su-27SK, has not been successful. It first flew in 2007, but the Chinese Air Force is adamant to receive these, and instead stick to the license-produced Su-27SK – even though the J-11B is claimed to have more advanced avionics, and vastly enhanced ground attack capabilities. The biggest problem is the WS-10 engine – the Chinese copy of Al-31F. It’s notoriously unreliable, and can hardly make even 300 hrs. The J-11B has also suffered from radar, cockpit avionics and even HMD failures.
Also, the French will not buy an American-produced fighter aircraft. It’s just can’t happen. For political reasons at least.
Thank you for your contributions guys. They have really kept this blog alive for almost three years now.
@ Risasi and ‘D’, I was just wondering about the L-15 falcon and the JL-9 mountain Eagle, both these birds appear to be still in development and might take long before any is available for export. In the interim what are we going to use as an advanced trainer if the Hawks are grounded as they appear to be? The reputed Janes defense weekly says that the Hawks are due for retire this year( unless of course they are upgraded).
Debate on F-15 acquisition has been raging above. Someone intimated that Kenya is interested in about 35 of them. Well i’ am not sure of the numbers, but i did see some report about the interest on the birds. I’ am still looking for the link though and will post as soon as i find.
Incidentally the same debate has been on the Mashada Forums blogs.
However, i concur with Mugwiira that it might be the F-15 Eagle and not the Strike Eagle that Kenya may be looking at here. Either way, the bird is un-rivaled in this part of the world. Look not even mighty Egypt has this kind of bird. It will indeed be a first in Africa.
@’D’, i doubt your allegation on the capabilities of the PAK T-50 viz a viz those of the F-22 Raptor. How were the comparisons arrived at when the PAK T-50 is still in the prototype stage? Six of these birds will be available to the Russian air force sometime in 2012 whereas 168 F-22 Raptors were already in US air force service as at May 2010. What is more, by the time the Russians have a sufficient number of the stealth,the US will be on a 6th generation fighter not forgetting an even more improved Raptor. My take is that the US is far a head and with a bigger economy to boot.The Russians can only play second fiddle for now.
Quite true Mugwiira, the French out of National pride or politics will not buy American produced fighter aircraft. They have traditionally produced their own fighter jets so what has changed now? They did not even partner with fellow European countries to produce the Eurofighter Typhoon instead choosing their own Dassault Rafale. Besides, they have the technology to make quality and competitive fighter jets. Perhaps they may need to look at their costs and marketing.
Guys i don’t think the Israelis will be getting the F-22 Raptors any time soon. Not unless Russia has sold enough PAK T-50s in a manner likely to threaten the Jews state. Besides, the F-22 Raptors are restricted to US air force use only and further production appears to be on hold.
Israel will get the F-35 Lightning IIs same as Saudi Arabia which is expecting 72 of them. These will do until there are enough reasons to supply the Israelis with the stealth fighters.
With the F-35s in their arsenal, the Israelis might then consider offloading some of their older F-15s.
Olekoima, Yes, some of your hunches are right.
Reliable reports have it that KDF has taken delivery of the first of several dozen F-15 jet fighters from Israel.
Perhaps discussions with S. Arabia hit a snag since the monarchy is a member of the Arab league and may not want to be seen as siding with a country involved in a war in a fellow member country of the Arab league, Somalia. But the United States could also deliver some of the F-15s.
It is instructive that KDF is involved in major equipment acquisitions that also involved policy changes. The Chinese Steyr trucks, for instance, have been dumped in favour of Ashok Leyland trucks from the defence division of Ashok Leyland Defence Systems (ALDS, http://defence.ashokleyland.com/)
Also, Israel has just taken delivery of F-35 stealth bomber versions.
THE us congress voted to outlaw any sales of the F 22 TO any foreign nation ..and that will not change now FOR fear of starting a new arms race in the region
and as far as i know the S300 Russian made missile defence system has not been sold to any country in the region as well
THE Iranians had even paid 800 million dollars part payment for this system in 2005 but RUSSIA has declined to deliver due to US pressure and the deal to scrap the defence shield in Poland. BUT things may change if RUSSIA FEELS that it is not getting a good deal on this
But the defence shield treaty with Poland has already been signed earlier this month in fact…ive just been wondering why the russians arent objecting to it as vocally as they used to.
THAT WAS A WATERED DOWN version that was signed recently by USA and Poland…but i also believe Russia has been shortchanged here.
Well fellas,what do you make of the recent attacks against uganda and what options are available to uganda given the decentralized state among the al shabbab.Is it even possible to wage war against them given that they would never wage war at the front lines but within the population dissolving themselves when convenient and coming back when the dust settles.how do you fight those lunatics?
the mandate of Ug In Somalia is peacekeeping. Peacekeeping has different rules of engagements. They need to change it to a peace enforcing mission. This will take them to the ranks of the Ethiopians. Again its going to be more mess and an up hill task. Who will pay for the ordinance used ? UG tax payers?
A times you have to let things mature in its own way. Just like a teenager passing to a phase of childhood to adolescents. Let them fight it out among themselves until they feel the need for a peaceful solution. When the present Gov,t of Somalia come to Nairobi the warlords then had reach that stage of maturity. But concurrently external force came in trying to make a homeland for jihadist, grow poppy and set up training schools. once the Somalia realize the benefits involved in growing poppy they will never turn back or want any authoritative force or a central government ever again. Therefore at the moment what we are doing or how were are playing it is to train more Somalis to go and redeem their country. Train thugs to go and do a thugs job.We hope that in due time they will regain control of the country and since they‘re our boys we can hope for a good regime there after. We have seen positive results of some factions that are making head way. They is no hope for the present Somali Gov’t. This matter needs to be resolved by the bullet rather then by the ballot. External Military forces and aid should come as a guiding partner rather then an occupying force.
P/S
Intelligent reports on the Kampala bombing are pointing toward self perpetuated actions by the UG,s. In short the bombing was done by UG,s. Either by religious lunatics or some force somewhere. Let’s wait and see what unfolds in the days to come.
kudos to kenbatt12 boys for wat they are doing
hi all,
kenya navy special boat unit v/s CDU…..?
Dont undertand their differences … arent their roles not the same esp considering their training ? that means redundancy right ? not necessary in our setupi guess
Microprocessor,
The Kenya Navy Spec. Boat Unit is a contemporary of the British SBS and the American SEALS…they are more adept to special land warfare…CDU concentrate of marine targets…major difference enough said…..
Taking out the Al-shabaab will not be helped by a rush of blood and mass drop of troops in a shock and awe type operation. Its better to recce the guys, eliminate key targets one by one. Just like the insurgency in Iraq, the playing card system developed by the Americans was ingenious but in my opinion ill timed, they should have implemented this plan before and early during the main invasion and right now we would have been talking of a different story.
These are men who attack and slink back into the population, turning the population against them is the key to victory. Id say divide and conquer, take the country back sector by sector. While maintaining precision attacks to take out strategic targets. When one section is cleared implement people friendly reforms in the area and its sphere of influence while moving on to the next sector, with a little bit of luck the civilian populace in the next area will be in need of changes and might turn against the terrorist to get the changes they need. Easier said than done but bombarding the hell out of Mogadishu would just martyr these buggers and put sympathy on them
ISOLATE SOMALIA by sea air and land and enforce total blockade then target the leadership of these thugs …where will they go?
have the four main east african countries comit lets say 40 thousand men to move area by area cut all trade links and only allow humanitarian goods then tell me if the people will not turn against these terrorists
WE JUST NEED GUTS like m7 has then we shall get somewhere otherwise this is the time to deal with these guys now now now now or never
Well this might be very costly though. Who will fund the war effort. We need the support of the AU and UN here.
I reckon they may not have a problem with this.
However how feasible is your suggestion? Is it bankable?
Some powerful guys at the security council might veto this move.
SOMALIA has no friends anywhere who ca veto any move against them
THEY HAVE UPSET EVERYBODY FRONT RIGHT LEFT AND CENTRE through piracy and now want to make life difficult for east africans
all we need is UN backing t o enforce peace
then stop all money going into somalia through western union etc…
carve out areas of influence like the way the coalition forces did in iraq then enforce peace by all means.
KENYA CAN PACIFY THE SOUTH, UGANDA THE CAPITAL AREA AND ETHIOPIA THE NORTH AND CENTRAL SOMALIA
after five years let therm unite when they are ready to talk to one another and the terrorists are no more.
http://dissidentvoice.org/Feb07/Petras18.htm
I still think the top guns of the al shaabab need to be taken out of action first, precision strikes are necessary to avoid collateral damage as much as possible. A blockade would only work with desired effects if essential commodities of food, water and medicines plus other humanitarian aid reaches the populace. Remember you would need the same civilians for intel during the main thrust of the operation, alienating them in the beginning will not help matters much. Sanctioning the whole thing might not be as easy as it seems, a CIA backed government is in there for reasons and not all of them good, if the UN is forced to back this uncle sam has to donate a lot more than its signature on the resolution i doubt they have enough confidence to let east africans handle this themselves or they have too much pride in them to let us take all the glory of a possibly successful effort. The chinese on the other hand have been courting the arabs for some time now, an indirect approach by america might just give them the opportunity to oppose the west without actually opposing them. By refusing to rubber stamp an offensive on somalia the chinese will be telling the arab and muslim world “see am your friend” while still saying to america “i am not against you just not with you” diplomacy is a double edged sword.
Lastly an operation of this magnitude to me is a little out of AU’s financial muscle, unpaid royalties from member countries is still a huge problem thats why the AU forces on the ground already are making do with very little basic gear. In there just 2 broken down or badly damage APCs mean a huge logistic headache for the brass…trust me ive been there and seen it myself.
you isolate somalia you loose the support of the VERY important public. depanding on the kind of setlement you want this can be an expensive decision…guys the key to peace in somalia lies in somaliland. we can send in a regional army, tanks, ships, fighters and all. all they’ll do is finish al-shabab and because of the chaos a new militia will rise. when ethiopia invaded somalia in 06-07, it set free the al-shabab within the ICU. if Uganda invades in ’10 it will set free the global jihadist within the al-shabab. Instead of trainning somali troops we should train somaliland forces. then we invade pacify the country, pull out and leave the somaliland troops to peacekeep and reconstruct. we kill al-shabab and hizb-ul-islam, the somalis unite under one force(somali force) and all of us are happy . However if we choose to do it the Museveni way we will be sucked into an insurgency we can’t escape and Iraq will be better than somalia. remeber Somalia’s problem is not military and can’t be solved with guns, it is social and only they can solve it. someone MUST DISSUADE museveni from invading because that wil be exactly what the al-shabab want. and by all means let’s keep American invovlement in Somali neglible if we want to look credible in the eyes of Somalis. i can give the finer details of this to any Kenyan uniform interested.
i applaud museveni for what he is standing up for his people
am pretty sure if uganda was boredering SOMALIA. WE could be seeing units of UPDF on the offensive inside alshabab held ares by now… that is the mark of a true leader who stands up when his people are threatened.
AS THE ATTACHED MAP SHOWS we need to move fast and contain this menace now before we are swallowed into the quagmire of sustained jihadist ideology like the middle east is now facing for decades
since the z-9 gunships were procured,its now almost 8 months and this choppers haven’t taken to sky.
wat could be the problem?
YEAH man @chinook….we are also thinking why we have not seen these machines in action ….although am told by my sources that there were some reconaisance test runs in the northern districts for six hours only by one of the machines some five months back to this date.
Also the maintenance crew for these machines are at present undergoing intense orientation on this craft as well
I understand they were seen flying. Don’t know how many of them, but there doesn’t seem to be any serious problem. Z-9’s should be okay, they are license-produced Dauphins, not an an indegenous development (apart from avionincs).
They did fly as late as last month that i can confirm lakini these things take time for orientation. Designated pilots for these birds logged in sufficient flight hours in China before and after delivery of the choppers. I dont see any reason for alarm.
z 9 beautiful choppers …
@chalo
while i appreciate your time taken to post this comment…i must say it is too short and does not add any vslue to this subject as intended…
COULD YOU PLEASE KINDLY ELABORATE
WHAT HAPPPENNED TO the great F15 E story?
any developements on this and are the SU 30 NOW flying in UG?
You don’t hear about the Su-30’s now. It seems, they’re still looking for the money. This won’t be easy. Apparently, M7 wanted to use the $404m which they wanted to charge to Heritage Oil in capital gains tax. We’ll see how the story develops, but legally, they’re not entitled to any tax whatsoever.
Reports coming from the Farnborough air show indicate that the Chinese have approached the following governments in Africa to purchase the JF-17; DR Congo, Sudan,Egypt and Nigeria. Kenya is not mentioned anywhere concerning a possible JF-17.
On the same note, there was a high level visit to Langley led by the VCGS last month. Langley, the home of Air Combat Command has recently retired some F-15’s after receiving F-22 Raptors. I initially received the news of the possible purchase of the F-15 with a pinch of salt but I think nothing is impossible. We need to acquire such capability to drive us for the next 20-25 years and expand our sphere of economic and political influence beyond our borders.
@kenya ace
IT is true the chinese are working overtime to sell these JF -17
INFACT i can attest that the chinese and indians are buying massive quantities of special titanium alloys and metals from two Manufacturers based here in the UK.
these SPECIA L METALS ARE THE ONES BASICALLY USED TO PRODUCE AIRCFRAT ENGINES AND FRAMES…
i do security consulting work for one of these companys here in UK and they had a stand at fanbororough air show..AND ONE of thier manufacturing plants in the north of england is now working overtime to meet the demand with three cycle shift system
The INDIANS through thier aquisition of the steel giant CORUS are also on the act…such thier sheffield based plant is not producing enough and they are sub contracting for more production to the manufacturer i work for .
IT is good news to hear that the VCGS was visiting langly and am told more visits are planned for august and september for the main defence staff boss himself
ALSO there are plans to set up two aerial surveillance operations in africa using the UAVs from uncle sam.. to target terrorists in conjunction with a selected un named african army….
THE case against ugandas SU 30s
http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/20/716086
ANY NEWS on the F 15 Es?why the silence on this string of late?
@ Spiderman
Am also wondering why the trail has gone cold concerning the Eagle.
[…] Kenyans have also taken delivery of a squadron of fifteen jet fighters which were acquired from Jordan, even though they are obsolete fighter jets to revamp its fleet. Kenya’s neighbor, Uganda […]
Buying a 4th Generation Fighter isn’t like strolling down a Supermarket aisle with a trolley and then queuing up to the Cashier, then casually walking out to your car and asking the Kanda-ya-mkono chap to push it into your car boot, chaps! There are serious protocols to go through, in this case involving congressional hearings / authorizations by various sub-committees to get through. The Package itself varies depending on requirements and agreements, not just simply being the fighter-unit, and this needs to be put together to complete each Fighter-Unit, there is training of new handlers specific to these Units, and the cross-training of other crews, reconfiguring holding pens / hangers / bunkers for the new units, taxiing lanes, etc. I am not a fly-boy, but I imagine it is one complicated preparations job that takes quite a while to complete. Those Eagles are coming, Spiderman, that you can bet your life on it.
“Our economy would not sustain a squadron of F-15 unless we mobilised for war – which then means essentially that war become the primary recepient of Government expenditure.” – Maj. ole Nkarei, on September 4, 2009 at 8:59 pm.
Are we mobilising then? Or just more cloak-and-dagger stuff?
Damn right we are, Vitruvian. We are at War, buddy, a low-grade real war of attrition, our very nationhood at risk, fighting for our survival as a Nation. A country of one-people-tribe-language-religion-culture-history has imploded at your very door-step, and no logical reasons exist for the genocide that continues inside it. A good 45% of their population has immigrated legally and illegal to your door-step, and with it the incomprehensible rivalries that have destroyed their home-land. The World looks on, unconcerned at the human catastrophe that is Somalia, all manner of Organisations run riot fanning this catastrophe for reasons not too difficult to discern. A Economic versus Ideological/religious/cultural conflict taking place outside your doorstep, threatening to engulf your house, your farm, your life and consume it. Vitruvian, there are men at harm’s way right this instant, as you write your acidic rejoinder, children whose fathers haven’t been at home for weeks. You think Kampala happened by chance, because there was a lacking of closer more appealing targets near Somalia? So, yes, we are Mobilizing, for a war unlike any other previous known before this century, where the enemy is everywhere even within you. No secret here about this, check the budgetary allocations etc,and indeed this build-up is gradual but make no mistake about it, it is a preparation for War
Indeed, Colonel. But cut me some slack. I’m a civilian. And I am, in fact, on our side. Acidic rejoinder? Surely not. Certainly not. I lack no appreciation and admiration for the men and women risking life and limb to keep my 2 kids out of harm’s way. Like SpiderMAN, I’m merely seeking reassurances as your two posts were contradictory, though many months passed between. It is comforting to know that you and your brothers-in-arms have the best tools to do the job.
I am not a uniform and my knowledge of security matters is very finite. This blog gives me some insight into that realm, scratching the surface though it may be. Noms de plumes & d/misinformation notwithstanding, this blog reveals a great deal. To a lay person like myself.
Your original post, however, had a point – there are other options out there and the F15s, despite (or due to) their outstanding performance and near-perfect combat record, will cost us a penny and then some. Not the most logical – or frugal – choice, in my humble opinion, though I’m hardly qualified to make such an assessment. Yet, I am not questioning the sagacity of such a purchase. I am, in fact, relieved to know that the decision has been made to pump some hard cash into some serious hardware. Soldiers are fathers and mothers, sons and daughters. Not cannon fodder.
Doubts have been raised, however, as to the efficacy of using air strikes to tame the Somali situation. Uniforms in this blog (including yourself) have pointed out that CI, black ops & the like was the way to go. Aerial operations to be limited to chopper insertions, extraction & support.
So what’s up with the F15s then? A counterweight to 6 Su-30MK2s (the owners of which are soon to share a common currency with us)? Apprehension about a belligerent Misr disgruntled by a more equitable apportionment of our common waters? Polishing the armour to defend our share of the DRCake? Anticipation of a Great Lakes implosion? New strategy to smoke the ferrets out of their Somali burrows? Are we on the brink of a regional war?
Yours is a valued opinion on this blog. Your military scenarios are a fascinating read. Can’t wait to read whose back sides the F15s might be whipping tomorrow.
Keep up the good job, Colonel. Sword in one hand, pen in the other.
Right on man…just needed some reasurances…
will be soon making personal contacts back home soon….just working o my possible itinerary..at the moment is roughly LHR-AMSTADUM-NBO-MOMBASA for rr then reverse after dash to ELD VIA KSM
dates unknown ….but for need to know only…
ONCE on the ground i know how to find the people i need to see for a chit chat….
@Mugwiira….Those tanks were very much tracked armor with western built config. My job entails mentally processing data while moving at 15km per minute.
@ blog Ok …..the F-15 might looks good and has a good track record but I still stand with the Fc-1 as the best fighter for our Airforce bila shaka. Buying the Fc-1 will be the wisest way we can spend our finance.
@risasi…
i have a hunch what you saw is part of this….27th august activity..the ZW 9 may also appear…
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000016211&cid=4&ttl=Grand%20plan%20for%20August%2027
apana hivi ni vivaro hapana chopper
i meant to say the new z9 chopper will appear for 1st time in public on 27th august uhuru park fly past new kenya constituition launch
I have been following conversations in The nairobi chronicles from the time i stumbled on it. i must say that it’s been an eye opener and has given me a third dimension view of current affairs and press in our country. kudos all. you are great minds and patriots.
@vincent
please well come and contribute where you can…and pass on the message to other well meaning east Africans and friends…
@vitruvian @ole nkerai
THE colonel is very right we are at war with a very well entrenched enemy
THE war started when IN 1991 SIAD BARRE was allowed to land in Kenya when he fled his colapsing country..WE TOOK him and his entire entourage to safari park hotel where he dined and slept for months at Kenyan tax payers expence…. finally when the image of our country became too turnished we let him go to west africa ..he never paid a single cent..FOR OUR HOSPITALITY
THE TRANSPORT plane he come in with his group was left on the tarmac at JKIA where it stayed for years until it rotted away..
when THE COLONEL SAYS 45% of SOMALIS ARE IN KENYA.. just imagine that another 20 percent are in the diaspora…and of these more than 10% got there using Kenyan passports ..HOW WAS THIS POSSIBLE?..
SMART kenyan somali lawyer smelled he could make MONEY…SO sometime in 1992 up to 1997 he set up a very smooth operation at corner house he..made links whereby any Somali national could get all papers needed to become Kenyan then get passport to anywhere ..
HE was charging these guys ksh 250,000(thousand)..for birth crtificate,school docs,employment docs,and a passport .also you get an elaborate CV and to enable you start life anywhere..
WHEN floods of Somali nationals starting turning up at international airports with KENYAN passports.. red flags were raised and soon after IN 1995/1996/1997 the USA, BRITAIN ,Canada and other western capitals introduced the stringent visa requirement REGIMES we see FOR KENYANS today.
THE lawyer at corner house had made so much money that when the Kenyan authorities zeroed on him after many complains..he skipped to Canada where he lives happily
THERE are hundreds of Somalis who i meet here in the UK and they claim to be from Kenya but the moment i go deep ..they usually beat a hasty retreat and simply get away from me..THERE are some who avoid me at all costs because they think i sitll work for the system in kenya
THE CRIME waves involving guns are directly linked to gun runners from somalia,and the piracy and terrorism problems are direrctly impacting our way of life…
SO i agree with colonel ole nkerai we are at war…
Just for the record – I’m a patriot and brimming with national pride. Now that we got that straight…
My original query had to do with the F15s. It was my impression (from this blog) that air strikes were not the best way to handle the Somali situation and I was interested in knowing what had changed the Colonel’s assessment regarding their purchase. Please read my response to the Colonel above. Beyond that, I agree with you and the Colonel regarding Somalia. I am distraught at the utter lack of political will in the past to deal with the issues as they arose. And now we have to deal with the consequences.
Yet this will be an unconventional war. As the Colonel said, the enemy is not only among us, he is also within us (and I hope this was not merely a response to some perceived defeatism on my part). This could be a bloody and protracted war. But should it? Certainly, any solution to Somalia must be comprehensive. Clearly, diplomacy alone will not do the job. Gun-boat diplomacy then? Backed up by a comprehensive rebuilding and restructuring programme for the country, else history will repeat itself.
But who, outside or within the region, is willing to make such a commitment?
@vitruvian
WELL PUT …but such things like this where by a AP POLICE sergearnt WHO HAS been suspected of committing a crime and is in lawfull custody of the police and is forcefully rescued by his heavily armed colleagues from KILELESHWA police station like what happened hear makes me wonder who is really running the security systems in the country….ARE THE AP these days above the law?
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/APs%20snatch%20colleague%20from%20police%20station%20/-/1056/977934/-/q0cf3cz/-/index.html
this is a very disgracefull….and worrying thing to happen in modern day Kenya.
Dang it all, Vitruvian, you are a hard target to hit, buddy! A pretty smart one too, I dare say. I owe you a coupla cold Tusker Malts, and you are Kenyan through and through for sure. My apologies, I guess one get defensive from habit, shooting at whatever first sound that breaks sound , sighting your ears, so to speak. Most times, it works and keeps you alive, what your ears heard is what your eyes then see, but sometimes …! Anyway, this situation around us is evolving faster than we ever anticipated, as recent events will no doubt validate. Our Strategy cannot therefore be focused solely on the Brigands of A-Q which as has been suggested by other Uniforms here too the proper work-plan is “quiet-work” albet aggressively heightened and to greater depth, and which is what we are running with now. But there is a clear aggravation of military intentions by several not-so-benign parties in the region that we must reactively respond to. Do not for one instant imagine that we shall allow UPDF to roam around Somalia the way they have been doing in the Congo and CAR with the results we all know so well. And with their anticipated revenue streams from Oil Exports and a still adventurous bandit-king (sorry Tororo), the dynamics change, in the long term. UPDF in Somalia with a weapons-free mandate isn’t desired by Kenya, . So, those birds have now become viable tool. Moreover, like Risasi said a while ago, these Units will be from stores already in use from Formations that will be taking newer-generation fighters more attuned to the their theater and purposes – price tag is not that crazy, and a lot of this will be bilateral under-wraps too. Make no mistake, the entire Centre of Africa rotates around Kenya into the next 50 years or so. And the Emergent Economies have made this very clear – China, India, Brazil. The unequal fascination the Old Economies have on the Social Political Foundations / growth of Kenya is yet another pointer too – they don’t care that none of the Chaps around us even bother to pretend to have a social /Political growth agenda !! So if Kenya doesn’t robustly and substantially grow our Offensive ability, and are weak, the momentum for growth in this region too will be weak. So, a counterweight to 6 Su-30MK2s? – YES! Apprehension about a belligerent Misr disgruntled by a more equitable apportionment of our common waters? NO!! No realistic Military threat from MISRI, more likely a diplomatic and financial push using their Western Backers. Polishing the armour to defend our share of the DRCake? – ABSOLUTELY SO YES!! 45% of the Rwandaise Economy is looted from the DRC, with which they are rebuilding their tiny state before the rest of us wake up to their thievery. Anticipation of a Great Lakes implosion? – Not at all, coz DRC is soon joining the EAC and likelihood of an implosion will gradually recede as their local situation / history of conflict gets swallowed by the new realities and possibilities of the expansive EAC – same thing will result with the Hutu / Tutsi fratricidal arguments with their entry into the EAC. New strategy to smoke the ferrets out of their Somali burrows? – NO but to keep envious eyes at bay, by taking control of the skies in Somalia. Are we on the brink of a regional war – Doesn’t seem imminent from this distance but always at the back of a competent Strategist. You should be working in DoD, Vitruvian, from the questions you frame!!
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/APs%20face%20arrest%20over%20raid%20to%20free%20colleague%20/-/1056/980020/-/pmy3t7/-/index.html
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/news/InsidePage.php?id=2000016398&cid=159&story=APs%20face%20tough%20action%20over
You flatter me, Colonel, and thus risk inflating my vanity. Rain check on the Malts!
KENYA submitted an extended claim to the UN for an expanded economic exlusion zone in the INDIAN OCEAN to cover 370 nauticle miles from the current 200 from the Kenya coastline..,there are efforts of exploration for hydrocarbons in the arid and semi arid areas of Kenya, there are plans to increase the available power generation capacity by over 400 megawatts,there are plans to link south Sudan by rail either directly from Mombasa and or a purpose built port in Lamu…
Kenya is rapidly implimenting its side of the EAC intergration faster than the rest of the EAC countries..ONLY Rwanda is matching the pace while TZ is dragging its feet on work permit and labour related issues
ALL this IS will at one stage need a robust projection of power and ability to defend without undue distraction from the going on activities in Somalia
Uganda has troops marauding in CAR trying to crush the lords resistance army.they have an ongoing poorly co-odinated and executed so called disarmament activity in KARAMOJA areas in the north east led by the rapidly promoted LT COL Muhoozi..and now they have been given the mandate to increase their presence in Somalia
WE have THE South Africans who will decide within the next 24 hours weather to deploy their navy to the East African coast and soldiers in Somalia
ALL this activity cannot go on unchallenged.
WE need to show the world we are no joke and we can rise to the occasion
have you ever wondered why men who beat up their women always get angrier if you try to stop them?See this guy figures hes in his domain and has the power to do as he wants. If you try to stop him he senses his authority has been undermined and if you antagonize him enough the guy might just turn on you….that is if he has the means.
Ok think of Kenya as the guy and somalia as the wife….all the others are the bystanders and neighbors. Its that simple really.
PS the above post should not be misconstrued as an endorsment to spouse abuse on my part. Its a bad habit.
Heh, heh! Nice analogy “D”. However, true to Kenyan form, this husband is polygamous. He has another wife from Juba and turned on his antagoniser there 5 years ago, with extreme prejudice. There’s also this really hot babe from Kinshasa he’d like to have fling with. And everyone has the hots for HER. From Brussels to Benguela.
He is king of the pride and the maneless upstarts view him with envy. Question is, are they lion cubs bent on usurping his throne when they come of age, or mere hyenas content with scrambling for his leftovers.
@ Risasi – I didn’t doubt your training; ran out of ideas and thought of ERC 90 Sagaie for a moment.
With more effective leadership those ‘cubs’ could out outgrow the lion especially if the lion poisons itself….but that is very unlikely, especially with the gradual implementation of the EA federation. Even though it is never said Kenya is still going to benefit more from this federation than any other country individually. And since military integration is also a long time from being reality the better economic times lead to more military modernization and whoever maintains the bigger financial develops her military and civilian structures faster and stronger.
I have noticed a lot of ambiguities on this thread, especially with regards to this hot babe that everyone, all the way to Benguela has the hots for. My only question is, If hypothetically, Kenya did have a prescence in her backyard what would be the reasons, and is there any backing from the west in this regard…secondly, are you guys so Naive as to think that the powers that be will ever allow her to be at peace…ever??..given her capabilities(read wealth).
Also does Kenya have a chance, given its geographical location away from her, to actually dominate the already present elements there?
Mr Nkarei, some insight please
IF you ask me…
Her capabilities, Alehandro. And no, they will not give her up willingly.
The guy with the biggest carrot wins (could not resist the pun).
Fortunately, we have choices today. We can look west. We can also look east. And they are not (necessarily) mutually exclusive.
The ambiguities = a wealth of opinion.
And we await, with bated breath, for insight from the Colonel.
Welcome aboard Alehandro – that moniker is Portuguese. The Future of Africa looks already delineated into these following spheres. 1. Europeanized Arab North around Misri (Misri is Arab only by name these days) 2. West-Africa revolving around Nigeria (if the arabs don’t finally succeed to implode this great Nation and hence extend their sphere into West Africa). 3 Caucasian-dominated Europeanized Southern Africa with RSA as Fulcrum – Unless Angola can rise up to the leadership of this block and force the Caucasians into retreat). 4. The entire Waist of Africa, founded on the immense natural wealth of the Congo Basin but rotating on Kenya. In careful studies of the rapprochement of recent times, and pronouncements of the anxious and uneasy Old Economies, as well as the direction of financial and diplomatic egress of the New Economies, you will no doubt see this clear delineation of Africa. Other Regions in the world are taking shape, generally growing Mass and Numbers for efficiency of utilization of Resources present and future. Nation-states as we know then are destined to subvert themselves to these Blocks, as an essentially strategy to avoid a chaotic scrabble for resources mostly driven by speculative future needs. This is the future. So Vitruvian and Alehandro, does this picture of the Belle-femme and the amorously greedy man “D” painted acquire some little light? By the way, we have had boots in DRC for over a decade doing all manner of things. Permanent and fully established fob in the Ituri region. In no small measure the stability that is emerging in this region, including the reluctant but rushed withdrawal of the “tall man” last year, is a result of this fob presence there. Clearly the old economies that have created this maelstrom of savagely and genocide in this entire region for over 150 years, will not just get up and go. But you know the saying about the only thing that remains unchanged being change itself
Every one is courting DRC and the fact remains that the gateway to its splendor has been and always will be through Kenya. Alehandro you cannot alienate Kenya in a bid to get to the Congo and hope to be successful. remember its all business, profits, power and greed and the key to all these is to minimize risks and expenses to maximize gains so far the Chinese are going about it the right way. The port of Lamu through the northern corridor via south Sudan straight through northern Uganda into Rwanda and finally DRC itself coupled with improved infrastructure and capacity from the Mombasa port via central Kenya, central Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi and finally again DRC is very strategic. The rapid expansion on the EA federation has made divide and conquer tactics by major external powers almost impossible….and for a good cause too. Its now a bigger and richer cake and he who has the means to access it through Kenya gets a bigger portion.
Sure someone could opt for development of the Dar port for this purpose but it just does not make sense economically to do that. The longer distance and inferior handling capacity of this port (which by the way is almost one third of Mombasa’s current handling capacity) will be a huge headache. And if say the west decide to do it the eastern block would quickly capitalize on this and bank on Kenya. Its a simple case of business savvy.
The colonel puts it correctly those old economies will still run the show but in a different way. It just has to be more equitable this time.
On a different note if you guys have noticed my absence of late its because of preparations for the 27th….Cant spill the beans yet but i can tell you guys one word…..HUGE!!!
“D”
i hear too that 27th august is gonna be a huge game changer…JUST HOW BIG ..NO IDEA..i have asked for a good audio visual coverage from my former collegues AND discreet shots for my own personal collection…tunangojea sana… long live kenya…
Thanks for the input guys,I had always wanted to join the armed forces, but someone told me ati I have cracked teeth , so I couldn’t make the cut….in retrospect, that was BS, but regardless, I doubt I could handle the physical requirements, so Imma leave that to the experts…nevertheless I’m very much interested in Its making sense that the Tall fellow needed to be pushed out, however is Kenya doing so out of its own desire to get a share or in the best interest of the Femme fatale? and had there been no Tall guy/ Expansionist neighbour next door, would our presence still be there?
If anyone can be willing to add; apart from the usual suspects frolicking under her skirt, and by usual, I reffer to elements mentioned severally in the public domain such as the mass media..so apart from them, who else are having a covert prescence… u can use ambiguities if you like
As for the 27th parade, Its a high time we flexed our muscles a bit, not to show our regionalmight, but for the sake of our very own doubting Thomases. Kudos
@ Alehandro, ole Nkarei
In Portuguese it’s Alexandre, in Spanish it’s Alejandro.
Alehandro looks like a butchered variant. Intentionally or mistakenly?)
Norm de plume, most likely. Just as odd as mine or yours, for that matter. But he is welcome, content most of the man rather than size of his name, I reckon. @Pat – Spooks forever, leopards that never change their spots, eh, Pat? Second nature to you, with the life you have lived, but let’s cool it with this “pictures” things, get us all into trouble, Kenyan!. Share ambivalent info, still educational despite lacking too much specifics (photos are such) that would endanger etc etc.. We can fill in the spaces for ourselves. 27th August will be our Statement of Intention as a Nation, in all our aspects, social, politico, economic. And you see how we in Uniforms interpret these and our roles in these, if you watch and read between the lines!!
….OK I WILL HOLD FIRE as long nothing crazy crosses my arc of fire afande…now i can see why these guys are practising at night….for the 27TH AUGUST parade…..
@ Mugwiira, the spelling is intentional
@ spiderman, if the spirit touches you somwhere, pia unaweza tuma vitu kwa inbox…i wont share, promise :-)..Tom doesnt have to know..alehandrosans@gmail.com
still, somone chose to ignore my question earlier
NICE try alehandro…i dont know why am tempted to pronounce you as ALEKHANDRO..just my instincts…but sending maneno to your sanduku(g amail is) a one way ticket to leaving an easy trail to my real identity….bwana…it is too early for that…wacha wale wenye abillity ya kujua wajionee..
..anyway am confused for once…are you talking about the tall fellow who people suspect knew who downed a bird carrying two big wiggs in1994 or the one who did not know what to tell obasanjo when cornered to explain what he wants in eastern congo … until his cousin who keeps winning elections with a 93% majority fished him out to save his skin?am confused …sijui kwa nini sielewi your lugha hapa mbele afande…
The later thin-tall man, Spiderman. He is the centre of every sinister Old-economies plots in the Great lakes. Not surprised if he had a hand in the Kampala event, by the way. And he did down that plane, I have read the hidden reports. An expansionist with a vengence, seeks to re-write history and remake the social order of the entire Great lakes Region. The reaper of death, the sower of destruction. Could have stopped the events of 1994 cold – but needed martyrs to hold a collective guilt-rope over the majority he rules. The man from the Slopes of Aberdares is too gentleman, will not consent to a robust reaction to this fella – wish he did! Eeiish!!
@ Spiderman, im too patriotic to pronounce my name that way..plus I was talking about the uhuru park rehearsal pics, then again Ill just have to wait till 27th
What I was asking is, had the tall fellow and his war mongering neighbour not have been courting, albeit rather forcefully this Fair lady, would we have still had a prescence there..Ie what are the motivations for our prescence, and does it go beyond the scope of the aforementioned two?
I agree with Ole Nkarei….his main aim was to get power…and to make omlette…you must break eggs…very sad….especially since arguing with the official govt position on 1994 is treasonable…..thats some serious guilt….
Can he remake the social order of the region really?? care to elaborate further without arousing too much attention sir?
someone please take ood shots for the likes of i who can’t attend because of reasons unaviodable. by the way 35 f 15 should be looked at in this terms. some of this planes will be cannibalized for spare parts and hence the large number. plus with such large projects being undertaken we might want to prioritize air defence. by the way now that the south africans will be steaming up our coast isn’t it time the K.N took it’s job seriously? it won’t look preety for the KNS Shujaa pictured sailing alongside the SAS Amatola.
Seriously? 35 F-15s? Hot-damn! Hata thelathini!
Meaning?
Meaning that I’m impressed by the number. Both in terms of willingness to spend and Congressional approval. And projection of power.
these birds are a waste of time . we should just proceeded with the china deal.
@Risasi,
But why do you prefer the FC-1? Why not the J-10 even?
Will the FC-1 be a reasonable counter measure to the Sukhois?
If we’re really getting these birds, this blog has come full circle. It started off as “Kenya buys junk fighters”
@jasiri
the SOUTH AFRICANS ARE NOT COMING until after they sort out completely their industrial strike problems…
THEY WERE TO ANOUNCE ON WEDNESDAY …BUT NOW ON hold…
saiors are slow people. a year is fast enough and it gives our navy time to adapt. procurement and reffiing(incase it’s secondhand) of a warship takes long. if the react now by the time the SAS Spioenkop and her sisters will be strutting up our beach we will have something adequate. anyway i like this new development. it’ll make the mtongwe lads wake up.
FC-1 are starters then definitely the FC-20. This is an American ploy there more than what meets the eyes guys. With reference to the Su27/30 against any “new” fighter that we will poses it all goes down to the training school. Let me respect guys on your discusion on current affairs. when you are ready then we will open the subject on a broader lengths. Nothing more then just a discussion . kufahamishana tuu. Yaani gumzo.
But in the mean time just pictures this. you use to date this girl she was pretty e.t.c. You looked a model couple pamoja and all applauded on the match. but they is a draw back. when she wakes up in her mood , then ndugu yangu siku hiyo ni ujipange boss, no food, no conjugal right, no conversations . you have decided to move on get a woman that you can control and who does a fair share of the women chores. Sasa she comes back saying she has realized her mistake and wants you to give a second chance. What will you do???
I dont know bout other guys here but if it were me id play them both…..their benefits combined will be a great advantage plus ones disadvantage could be countered in the others strong point and vice versa….In plain terms the Chinese are not as political as the yanks they want to do business. Hell they sell the yanks a couple of their new birds if only the latter knew how to ask. Most of their technology is backward engineered and slightly tweaked western or russian hardware. Note this does not necessarily mean that its bad equipment.
D your a player bwana ……..it needs time, dedication and finances ha ha ha
D looks like our teachers were brothers. we share the same philosophy,hehehe. the chinese may not be as political but unles the FC-1 deal has a TOT included i wouldn’t buy. reason being chairman mao has very itchy knuckles and when he starts raining blows all over his backyard-probably with Patel- supply of critical parts for our birds might be a headache as they will be prioritizing for their own war effort. by then since we anticipate massive growth in our economy, we might feel that impact heavily and this will severly resrict our defence efforts. Now uncle sam is bad mannered, but at least the possibility of him fighting a war on his backyard is as remote as shabab holding democratic elections. i say we go thro wid uncle sam, in this region we live in we will always find a new position to squeeze his balls anyway.
we could do both like d says, the eagles for heavy combat and show of force displays and the fc-1’s for harassment low grade warfare u know, bullying neighbours, scaring shaba etc
@Risasi,
Agreed, let’s go back to this after the current affairs debate.
Anyhow i tend to also agree with ‘D’s assertion of double play.
Alehandro – an ambitious Nation such as Kenya, with pretentions to regional leadership requires assurance of the very two things that brought the Murderous Colonialist to Africa – raw material for industrialization, and markets resultant from Industrialization. Everything you need, will ever need, is found in stupendous quantities with the Fair Lady. The Old Economies know so, and so do the New Economies. Ergo -we need to lock them out, or at the very least create a third alternative paradigm that builds on our common identity and heritage first (including the horrible relationship with the Old World of 700 years) and secondly on the competition between the New World and the Old World for the wares of the Fair Lady. And you are right, GoSS is simply a replication of the troubles the Fair Lady has undergone under the amorous hands of the Old World. A critical mass develops when we can with a consistent ability thwart and repel some, not all, of their insidious plans and activities to keep the Fair Lady and GoSS – and by extension the rest of us, in perpetual turmoil and degradation and self-loathe at the seemingly unlimited ability of the African to dehumanise himself . So, the Man from Aberdares Hills initially reached out to the Tall-thin man and tried to wean him away from the Old World’s clutches, and failed – he was too far corrupted by his Genocidal involvement to feel safe otherwise. So a small Observation Mission, that had been sent to the Ituri and Kivus for the AU, then received a changed Mandate, muscle and greater local command discretion, and with rules of engagement that allowed “everything”– and that is what we have been doing ever since with the Fair Lady, and GoSS, and Ethiopia ( they held Pluralistic elections this year as a pre-condition for entry into the EAC!), and Somalia ( this confusion in Somalia at the very least keeps out the “bad man” from getting greedy fingers on her wealth). Selective take-outs with extreme prejudice that alter dramatically local situations allowing for new fresher approaches to the perennial debates in these areas, precision spanner-in-the-works of Old World schemes fronted by their Commercial Interests, smoke-and-thunder to move populations away from hostile groups, Intel Collection to facilitate Political discussions, training of counter-weight groups such as in Puntland and Lower Somalia itself, etc, etc.. As concerns the Tall-Thin Man remaking the Social Strata of the Great Lakes, first of all he has now re-written the 1994 Genocide History, created a collective Guilt of the Majority that he uses to great effect, installed a superiority complex amongst his Tutsis that explains their sometimes insidious activities as their entitlements, has warped the Education System that ensures the domination of the Tutsis in Rwanda’s National affairs into the future unless a reactionary forces gain pre-eminence. He has tried to assimilate both Kivus into his National Economy ( “general” Ikunda and his exploits) by terror and war, and were we not there he might well have succeeded. etc. etc.. A true student of Machiavelli.
Imho, it will be China, not Kenya which will benefit most from EAC. De-industrialization of East Africa will proceed.
Export-oriented growth has never taken off in Africa. Import substitution has been an anathema (thanks to the Harvard boys!).
What we have in Africa are large but non-competetive retail economies, with non-tradeables driven growth (construction, retail, telecomms) and little development/industrialization.
It has been mode dejour to talk about 9/11 being a watershed event. In my view, the real watershed event was 9/15 (2008). Since then, the transition from a capital-overabundant world to a capital-stripped world has been irreversible.
For Africa, with low savings rates and high dependance on aid, this will be a new economic Ice Age.
In EA, Kenya will likely fare best, UG worst. Rwanda will limp on, until soil exhaustion makes it implode in a way not seen before (no later than 20 years from now, but could be much faster).
The tall-thin man has been a disaster for his own people (if the Hutus are to be considered “his” people), and for the people of Congo. No way could he’ve captured power without provoking that latest round of genocide in ’94. The way Westerners talk about his regime reminds me of how they talked abt the USSR in the early 30’s when Ford, GE and others were doing nice business with “Uncle Joe”.
May sound like plenty of doom and gloom; but, economicaly, the 10’s will likely be very different from the 00’s for objective reasons, and ignoring the risks may prove costly. Africa’s biggest threat going forward are not Talibans, but RUF’s.
@ Risasi – I suggest FC-1 first, MiG-35 later.
They share the same Russian engine (the RD-93 may not have been perfect at first, but has been in use for quite some time, and has benefited from many improvements), and the FC-1 was even developed from a Mikoyan project abandoned in 1986.
They both offer good value for money.
And you have two diferent suppliers.
Lastly, the Yak-130 and its derivatives (L15) were designed with the MiG-29 and its handling character in mind.
I have some news that will kill this debate about a viable jet once and for all.From a very reliable source ive learnt that what Nkarei said above is no bluff.This man knows his cards.Kenya airforce is up for a massive upgrade which includes 35 f 15s from the U.s.This is in line with the expected kenyas influence in this region.I cant wait.The much touted Su’s are rendered toothless by whats coming soon.Its the positioning of Kenya as a superpower in this region.I bet ya this is coming!
This same information has just been posted in Wikipedia. I wonder how credible Wikipedia is, but there you can read the same thing. Incidentally it also says that Kenya’s armed forces are now more than 63,000 strong. We can only wait and see. Anyhow thanks for the information one man army and Kudos to the Colonnel.
But Wikipedia can be edited by practically anyone. It might very well be true, but not necessarily because it’s on Wikipedia. The changes were made yesterday (24th) by one “Plnliyayi67”.
However, KENYA JUU!!!
VERY interesting times indeed…mungu atusaidie sana…
I CAN SEE how and why the kenya government was able to raise 79000 security forces to deploy during the referendum activity…THESE NUMBERS TELL OF A VERY DIFFERENT ability and capability of kenyan leadership if they want to do something…they can indeed deliver…
I ONLY WISH THE SAME ZEAL AND determination could have been shown ile wakati wa mzozo wa migingo…
Well they didn’t see the need. They preferred to give diplomacy a chance and it worked. As regional leaders we don’t have to appear like bullies. We need to ONLY resort to force when all else fails. In addition, it didn’t appear as if there was any tension between Kenya and Uganda so as to warrant a deployment of any sort. All that hullabaloo was actually a creation of the press. M7 and kibaki are buddies hence there was no need to spill blood and harm the EAC spirit.
While i largely agree to some extent…the court of public opinion which is still out does not agree with your assessment of the situation…WHEREBY the public were so enraged that they almost resorted to take mattes in their own hands.
THE press was reacting to this pressure and even today there are bloggs that keep bringing up that issue sircarstically..
EVEN NOW as far as i know uganda is yet to officially renounce its claim to this piece of one square mile of real estate.
HOWEVER THOEE ARE matters stilll pending…
CAN Someone categoraly(categorically) tell us we are soon entering F15 territory and how soon?
Im very excited and ecstatic to hear that recent development…Im however curious as to the cost of acquiring them. Knowing America, to get such expensive equipment, there has to have been some serious concessions made with them (perhaps resource related)…anybody willing to shed some light on that….because I think its some serious overkill economically for us
Also on the Somali Issue, I read the other day some Somali Proffessor’s theory that states that Kenya and Ethiopia are more interested in instability in the horn of Africa rather than a Stable region due to clamour for unification of the greater Somali region as seen in the past….could there be any basis in this?
Kindly shed some light gentlemen
It goes without saying that a stable somalia with a gluttonous appetite for a larger somalia would mean an effort to annex part of kenya and ethiopia.You know the history of this.Its obvious that even if this may prove to be a very difficult assignment for them,the people will definetely be on somali side since they are of that blood line.The instability that can result would be catastrophic to our dreams as a nation.
…………………………….that kenya and ethipia are celebrating the mess in somalia is not a good assessment.Kenya for instance bears a heavy burden {read 400,000 refugees} among other things you may not see.A stable somalia is in the interest of every one in this region (you saw what chaotic somalia can do read Uganda),the million dollar question is,can a stable somali coexist with neighbors without laying a claim to someones territory? I bet ya i dont think so!
Since our prominence cannot be build on fearing what a lunatic neighbor can do,thats why ive advocated here and elsewhere for strengthening all elements of our forces (we have resources) such that should anyone be foolish enough to dare us,a baptism of fire and thunder would befall them .
Those who sugest that instability in somalia works for Kenya and ethiopia may be right if you argue that stable somalia will claim a large somali land but you see,this is reverse engineered thinking.Lets not stop them by inflicting or supporting chaos but by making them think twice when they peep on that barrel.
As soon as it gets the chance, Somalia will concentrate on rebuilding the country, not its military. And it has to rebuild practically everything. It will be decades before Somalia can develop a standing army of any significance, particularly one that could possibly pose a threat to Kenyan or Ethiopian territory, in which time we too would have increased our military advantage. And by which time it is reasonable to expect that Somalia (and Ethiopia) will be part of the EAC, more concerned with other matters. I don’t think we need worry about a Greater Somalia and should instead focus on bringing peace and stability to the country.
i know this PnLiyayi chap na kama ni yeye who wrote it then it’s more than credible. but the military needs to buy some always pads mazee we are haemoraghing information :-P. as regards to the cost, stand assured that they may not be as expensieve as they seem. Kumbuka we have a user friendly regime in washington and most probaly our FMI credits will play a part in the aquisition. by the way did you think that vp Bidden was flirting with Kenya for show? bigger things are in the making too. for now IMARA JUU ANGANI.
HOW long has this blog existed wajamani?…SOMEBODY just posted me a link and what a i read makes me very proud
to be a KENYAN…
CAN SOMEONE ASK THE KENYAN NETWORKS TO POST QUALITY VIDEOS SHOWING THE MARCH PAST ON 27TH AUGUST?
[…] shoddy projects, do you still think it would be unwise to buy one F-15 for 7 F-5s in our arsenal? Kenya Airforce buys junk fighter jets The Nairobi Chronicle __________________ "A Life Without Purpose Is A Life That Has Been […]
mazee imagine flying what I can call old rusty junk war cans disposed by other countries ,putting the lives of
I understand there was no fly past due to the weather, Im not disappointed because just knowing that weve got some proper jets lying around recently acquired is comforting enough. Plus the frogmen and the well armed KWS is enough to give our covetous neighbour the chills..ama?
But still, 1 f-15 will cost us a billion kshs, what about 30 of them??
Alehandro my bro, this things are secondhand-n not derelict as stinger thinks- and even so kuna kitu inaitwa Foreign Military Assitance so we actually may be paying less for them than tou would think.
so we’re buying second hand f-15s?
Naturally, we can ill aford brand ne F-15’s in such large quantities. maybe a few of them in the mix will be brand new, who knows?
does anyone have videos of the various units of the armed forces as they matched past?
i can pay gold for these man!
RWANDAS DILEMNA..
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-27/rwandan-government-slams-united-nations-report-alleging-genocide-in-congo.html
GUYZ..DUE TO THE HEAVY DISCUSSION..I HAVE STARTED A DISCUSSION FORUM FOR OUR ISSUES. …A BLOG IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS DISCUSSION AND MUCH MORE….I HAVE PUT A FEW OF OUR DISCUSSIONS ON THE NEW BOARD…IT HAS MORE FLEXIBILITY SUCH AS PICS AND VIDEOS…
PLEASE GO TO: http://nipate.com/viewforum.php?f=3
LETS SHIFT OUR DISCUSSION TO NIPATE.COM…EVERYONE SHOULD GET A USERNAME…I HOPE TO GROW THE FORUM TO ATTRACT HEALTHY DISCUSSION.
THANKS GUYS ..AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME ON THIS BLOG.
@ Admin,
A brilliant idea. We have in the past toyed with the idea of starting such a thread. I will give it a try while still maintaining presence here. Let’s try it guys. Might be a good forum after all.
AM remotely monitering this new site and so far the traffic there is low…however am soon jumping in but will keep my links to this blogg active as well
The traffic is picking up. We have ten users so far..meaning most of the users on this blog have registered.
It is surely a good step since one can post new topics..can post pics and videos easily etc
We dont want the site to be like mashada where there are many silly discussions.
The traffic is picking up at http://nipate.com. We have ten users so far..meaning most of the users on this blog have registered.
It is surely a good step since one can post new topics..can post pics and videos easily etc
We dont want the site to be like mashada where there are many silly discussions.
Reply
you guys have deserted to some place new? anyway the f-15 story may have some meat in it. Sample this http://www.google.co.ke/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=FGj&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=sudan+tribune+%2B+kenya+%2B+gration+%2B+ambassador&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= Ex-Air force general who helped train risasi’s forefathers turns diplomat and is now being posted to kenya. Call it a conspiracy theory but i’m looking at this with interest.
I don’t gossip, Jasiri. The rain-clouds have yet to form, but as surely as earth turns daily, the rain-storms are coming. Chaps are testing out this new site by name of nipate.com, not deserting but is worthy a try, Jasiri. With caution, though.
Jasiri, as-you-are, man. Stay the course, on nipate.com – hell, even the Nairobichronicle was initially a fleabag publication in content at the start. We all build it, and chaps like this issuing blogg-off instructions were plentiful in the Nairobi Chronicles during the earlier days. Stay, and put in your bit, and quality shall emerge too.
@Jasiri,
We are still very much around. We will not leave this blog. However, we are just sampling things out there. Might be another good forum to interact with the populace.
It will take more than smileys and a fancy design to kill this blog. We are still very much here.
Don’t think much of the direction this new site we were invited to is taking, especially in the past two days, particularly the Administrator’s preoccupation with ethnicity. I am simply out of my depth in such a discourse.
Me thinks it was better to redesign this blogg rather start a new one with a mixed bag of strings.
Athough it looks a WELL THOUGHT piece of work but the multiplicity of interlocking subjects and topics leads to stiffling of variety in thinking?…i dont know…
ALSO there is the chunning out of topics by nairobi pundit and one nairobian..who to me for all purposes is one and the same.
I THINK it would make sense to take down those strings that have no reactions after seven days
now back to earth …
The journey for the economic emancipation of south sudan will bigin soon with the launching of tenders by the KG for CONSTRUCTION of the Lamu port
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Countdown%20starts%20for%20Lamu%20project%20%20/-/1056/1010332/-/y0kawk/-/index.html
TOPIC; THE PROVINCIAL ADMINISTRATION KENYA
Now guys in the know.. this could be a hot potato but my main concern is how the central government will deal with this item which has heavy security implications for a functioning kenya
In my opinion we need to retain this much like the system worksd in the USA
IE
1)we can make the DOs,DCs AND PCs operate like US marshalls to enforce government policy and crime prevention
2)we can merge them into the police or paramilitary units to deal with cross county crime like the national guard in the states
3)they can be made into border guards to deal with immigration and control issues,customs and taxes.
etc..
ANY ideas? am getting stuck..
I am not in the know but it would be foolish to lose experienced people. The question is, what to do with them (Saitoti seems to have plans of his own). The duality of regular/administration police is already a matter of confusion. The regular police are to be deployed at national level. The AP are to serve under the civil authorities of county governments. Yet each service is (to be) commanded by a DIG and the new katiba is clear that only the pertinent Cabinet Secretary may issue instructions to the IG or his deputies. In writing. The AP, then, are expected to serve 2 masters and what happens if and when the 2 masters issue conflicting commands? Then there is the perrenial problem of conflict and rivalry between the two services due to overlapping jurisdiction. This has already led to some ridiculous and dangerous situations. With so many thugs out there, the last thing we need is cops taking pot shots at each other.
The idea of state marshalls is an interesting one but what would be their mandate? Something similar to the US Marshalls?
The customs people need a dedicated service with people specially (re)trained for the task.
It is unfortunate that the Police/AP division is constitutional rather than statutory. Any fundamental reforms would require a constitutional amendment.
What a nice welcome to Nairobi. Our new mils are in perfect flying condition, i feel like a vip 🙂 . anyway i think we should read this http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1011128/-/cnpo15z/-/index.html. so does this affect the grant given to Kenya to build some road in the rift valley?
on the question of A.P Vs Police i personally think that the A.P should be re-trained and re-deployed as a purely border guard/coast guard force. we could even furnish them with old SISU 6*6 to deal with the Shabab, merilles and adventurous Toposa. that would mean when the military is called in, no questions asked, it’s a major storm. That in essence would necessitate a small domestic defence industry. i don’t see why Kenya can’t attempt this. we have the Britts who are falling all over themselves to be relevant again, if we buy the schematics for the Vickers Mk3 then do a major makeover for it eg. Install Passive armour like the Magach/Sabra replace the royal ordnance L7A1 with the Rhein metal L44 smoothbore and a 7.62 slaved to the main gun, install a new catherine thermal imager with a Knight mk3 FCS, obviously that would mean a new redesigned turret. we throw out the continental diesels for an MTU, some new tracks for the increased speeds. V shapped hull bottom for the minefields, a Radar Warning Reciever/Infra Red warning sytem with smoke grenade dischargers slaved to it to trigger automatic smoke discharging ama we go with the russian Shtora system? we give it a snorkel for amphib ops and river crossing et voila! new powerfull “Kenyan” tank. a downgraded version to be marketed aggresively within the E.A.C and subsequently COMESA block. Africa has a huge rotting armoured corp and someday they will need replacement. with projects like LAPSSET and the soon-to-be-built rail link to Uganda we can afford to arm twist neighbours to buy kenyan plus it be a big boost to ational security as no one can dare attack us when we supply them with armour. Ole Nkarei please furnish us with a cost benefit analysis. Mugwiira and spiderman tell us ’bout the implication of going independent.
I cannot comment on the technicalities of a Kenyan tank, but we need to set up the industries to support such a project in the first place. We also need to thoroughly upgrade our infrastructure, nationwide. I dunno, but starting with tanks, we might be biting off a bit too much to chew.
If iron and coal are the bedrock of industrial manufacturing, if gas, oil and thermal are to meet our energy requirements, if water is the lifeline that will turn this nation into a breadbasket, we must still exploit these resources. No-one, not even the Chinese, are willing to transfer such knowledge at the moment. They are interested in getting the resources out, in raw form. And if that means building a spanking new port and a superhighway, so be it. Do we have the capital, technical know-how and general capacity to exploit these resources by ourselves? Probably not yet. So we need to learn. Local capital, though, has become a force to be reckoned with.
We already have a nascent arms industry, albeit miniscule, but lest we forget, this is the most profitable industry on the planet. Contractors such as BAE, Boeing, Raytheon, Thales, Norinco, even Denel, will not stand idly by while we slice chunks out of their delicious pie. Perhaps we ought to focus first on upgrading to heavy manufacturing, if coal and iron permit, then apply the acquired know-how to armaments when we are confident enough. Concurrently, we have to develop electronics, machining and fine mechanics. Engineering in general.
An old subject, this, so I will revisit my earlier post on it. A defense industry component of a Armed Forces Strategy only make sense when in effect one is faced with imminent aggression at any level about that we face, or an active export policy such as the Israeli, Swedes and Chinese and others have. Because these are justified by productivity and consumption of the products that are churned out. A peace-time Fighting force that trains to develop Excellence of strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control -such as Kenya, cannot justify the massive capital needed by theses sort of industries. However, this excellence of Strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control also develops a deep ability to technical understanding of equipment and weaponry. Indeed part of our General Planning involves detailed training and exposure to the manufacture of basic equipment used by our Forces, from a diverse sourcing. Kenya has therefore a well-developed pool of knowledge that would quickly be brought to bear in the event of an imminent armed conflict in terms of a rapid program of armament manufacture. Coupled with this are very concrete and vital agreements with several Western Countries specifically in contingent of this eventuality. In the “D” Coy of the Paratroopers, as Risasi and others will attest, every man has the training and capacity to personalize his weapons, by making sophisticated alterations and improvements that suits him!!
Certainly, preparedness is the key to victory for any fighting force, and we in the Armed Forces of Kenya, within the limitations we face, are definitely cognizant of this indeed
i know it is an old subject. it was meant as a tasty diversion from the politics of provincial administration. desired effect achieved.
When Chris Murungaru dramatically canceled the Land-rover re-supply / refitting tender and “voted East”, and the police force received land-cruisers instead, the largest Rover factory in Britain closed down inside a year, with the loss of approximately 2500jobs. Rover subsequently went into merger to salvage itself, and other related events also followed consequently. The short of this is that the greatest spur to economic growth is government expenditure since Government is the largest corporate body in any country with the most money. IN the West, Government spending revolves around their Defense Industries, which survive only because of an intricate and expansive export policy to ensure consumption of the Products beyond domestic. It is a warped Subsidies regimen that they operate, and millions of their people depend on these Defense Industries. Any abrupt changes in traditional client-market result in substantive disruption in their National Balance, and are treated as hostile actions by friendly governments. Hence responses are similarly couched and intended to reestablish the status quo of supply prior to the disruptions. All manner of methods are used including their pliant Media that dish out persistent disinformation to a gullible international population. As Vitruvian puts it, a lot more preparedness needs to first be assured, of the Infrastructure to secure and domestic copies of the Equipment we intend to produce as well as the Indutrial Capacity to complete the production. We need therefore to ensure Kenyana becomes a virtual and real fact of geopolitical considerations to divert the response of the old-economies to our intentions to independence from a destructive approach to a proactive engagement, such as Israel has successfully implanted over the past 60 years. Be patient Kenyans, one small step after another is wise.
i will not go deep here … but only to ask what happened to the Kenya railways workshops in nairobi?
did YOU KNOW that they had the most advanced meturlagy forging and pressing machine in africa second only to south africa?
This machine had the ability to forge metal into any shape and form ant it was installed by german engineers in the late early seventies and eighties.
the original nyayo car engine block and parts were forged and pressed here…SO WHAT happened?
that facility suddenly broke down and no one had been trained to service and repair it.
ALL THE SERVICE MANUALS DISAPPEARED and when they tried to do something about it the cost was too high and at that time the moi regime was now in bad books such the condittions impossed were unpalatable…the race for democracy multy party politics kicked in and soon the railway was looted to the ground by succesive hand DIRECTORS.
…the rest is now history.
The thing about customizing weapons either at individual or national level is there has to be an express need for it. The justification of spending taxpayers money on a yet to be proved project has to be overwhelming and the outcome has to be more or less guaranteed. That plus the cost and logistics puts such heavy work out of the reach of the kenyan industry for the moment….however gentlemen i do know a neat trick to quite down a semi auto assault rifle. Just field strip the thing and drill three holes 1.5 mm apart near the front of barrel. Voila!! the noise goes down by more than 75%. If you add a silencer to it i assure you the noise of the empty cartridge hitting the ground is louder than the actual bang of the gun…..pretty cool.
If I get shot by a civilian with this terrifying contraption, I know who to blame! C’mon “D” these are ‘trade secrets’, man!
That’s good to know, “D” 🙂
Mi-171/Mi-8AMT finally adapted in the K.a.f transport group the Mil
is a heavily modernised version of the world-famous Mi-8. The helicopter are designed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant and are produced at the Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant. The Mi-171 can carry up to 37 service passengers on light seats, up to 26 people on chairs, loads up to 4000 kg internally and externally, up to 12 injured in medevac missions.
Complimenting them with Mi-35P Hind attack is now an imminent option.
Ulan Ude clips
risasi, figured as much when saw ’em flying around last week. they were completing their acceptance trials weren’t they? lakini this new trend of facing east is really suprising. i expected it but not to such magnitude. by the way there’r rumours doing rounds in our naval bases that we are now proud owners of a submarine! i’d like to question the practicality of that but seeimg how the armed forces has been on a shopping spree i wouldn’t be surprised. can anyone confirm this please.
Submarine? Haven’t heard!! Damn! Cannot make sense, Jasiri, not at this juncture. You sure it’s not the usual mill around idling violent men? Will ask around. Damn!!
A Sub? wow. By the way, what became of the KNS Jasiri? Any news?
@ Jasiri good eye shot on the Mi-.congrats my friend we though this birds will blend in with out being noticed. are you guys leaving on the perimeters of our AFB ‘s?
now you get my point when I disagree with web members who insist on website links to confirm the existence of items in our arsenals. Mi- were are flying in K.A.F and no website even wiki has highlight it. 77 pieces of T-72 came into the country unnoticed by the public and world before the 33 balance tanks were spotted. What is on the webs is not the absolute.
@ the submarine deal I doubt it as the Navy always procures on the sixth year of each decade i.e 1966,1976,1986,1996.2006 and the next arrival will be in 2016. may be an order has been placed but I can,t confirm. Plus its not easy to hide one as the it has to be afloat entering and leaving Kilidini. There times Asian friends come in and dock at Mtongwe before heading on.
Watch the sky new Gunships are coming from the East conversion completed last year. This part of the government is growing. Kenya is not rearming against anyone, but our 30yrs Debts are over the cash is there and if the same amount is converted into Eastern hardware we talking of larger consignments.
actually it wasn’t that hard to spot them. the turbine noise from the Mils is different from anything commonly flying around in westlands.
I also doubt he submarine deal seriously! for an effective sub force we need to have at least two in service to complement each other. two subs will elicit a noticable spike in defence budgets or at least in naval infrastructure. the may not neccesarilly be based at Mkunguni (Mtongwe) but that would leave them only three options. Manda bay, which i heard is being relocated by the way so its a no. Shimoni, to underdeveloped for comfort or Msambweni ideally the best but also underdeveloped. assuming that headache is done with, we now have the issue of tactics.For the K.N to develop effective sub tactics it needs at least three warships ASUW capable. As far as i know no ship in the Kenya navy has the necessary infrastructure to carry out an anti submarine operation. hii story is just idle talk i believe.
I hope the air force will go for the Kamov KA-50. the tricks this bird can do border on fighter jet abilities. but if it’s east i figure it’s the Z-10 coz kuna wakati you air men were swooning over this bird.
@risasi
I am aware that in the early 1980s the US goverment paid for the widening and deepening of the mouth of Kilindini harbour two reasons-
1) to allow room for the entrance of any type of us submarine into the port without it having to be on the surface.
One event like this indeed happened in mid 1986 during a night time visit by one large us submarine
2) During that period odf deepening of the port the same mouth was also cleared of second world war anti submarine netting that hard been laid down by the British royal navy in 1941/42 to trap any german u boats that could have tried to sneak and attack any ships in the harbour.
http://indicatorloops.com/mombasa.htm
i have not not got wind of any news that Kenya navy is getting any subs and to be honest i do not think our navys operational disposition can sustain a submarine vessel of any sort.UNLESS we have had a massive leap in our training capability. i could be wrong.
0
futther reading for history buffs here
http://www.coastweek.com/codes.htm
@risasi
thanks for highlighting the previous sequential time line of KNS procurement practises..However am not aware of any succesfull purchase by the Kenya Navy in 2006 other than the projected upgrades of two of their ships that were sloated for mid 2009
the other main purchase from spain is still mirored in corruption and and other litigation issues and worse still no delivery of the oceanergrapher ship whose procurement was presided over by one major general mwathethe.
THE latest pictures of KNS JASIRI still laying idliing away in a spanish port
sorry people the above link has an error as i have combined
two links by mistake..
The correct link for the KNS JASIRI picture taken on 22nd august 2010 in Spain is again here by attached
@olekoima
Any more queries? you can see how we are wasting tax payers money by letting this ship just iddle away at the finished goods end of the shipyard in Spain
i wish the government could sort this out once and for all.
HATA kama wazee walikula ….there is no justification for this thing to continue this way.
Our men and women in service need equipment in order to full fill the constuitional mandate of protecting our borders and oceans..this kind of wastage is not justifiable.
THE KNS jasiri must be delivered home soon?
No, i’ am contended now. Thanks SPIDERman.
Hey, “D” – your response to the below cited 30 Man Platoon Outline? Anyone else want’s to put in their two bits?
Manning
1 Officer, 1 Sergeant, 2 Corporals, 2 Lance Corporals, 24 other ranks
Weapons.
30 x Individual Weapons/Carbines (5.56mm)
6 x 40mm UGL kits, or 40mm launchers
2 x GPMG (7.62mm)
2 x Long Range Rifles (8.6mm)
1 x 60mm Mortar Hand Held
2 x MAW, – Alcotan / Panzerfaust / 84mm
M72 type LAW and M200 type Rifle grenade issued as required.
3 x ATGM Posts held for Anti-armour mission
Communications
30 x PRR
6 x PRC-148 or 710 type multi-band hand held.
1 x HF Manpack
6 x Commanders GPS sets (PLGR) and PDAs
Night Vision
30 x NVG and IR Weapons pointer
4 x Weapons mounted Long Range Night Sight
4 x Thermal Weapons sight
6 x Light Weight Laser Range Finder
Organisations –
organised by mission, transport and operational requirement.
2 x Multiples
Each multiple is 3 x 5 man teams. Each multiple Commanded by the Platoon
Commander, and the Platoon Sergeant.
3 x Sections
3 Sections of 2 x 5 man teams, or each section as 3,3,4 groups.
5 x Sections of 6 men
6 Sections of 5 men.
Transport (as dismounts)
5 x 6 man APC
4 x 8 man APC (2 spare seats)
3 x 10 man APC
10 x M/WMIK crews (2 Sections of 5 vehicles)
With Baited Breathe I await!!
@ spider ya the harbor was deepen but it unsafe to run a sub under at that debt still vise vie the traffic Secondly the navy has a custom of celebrating all thier purchases with family and friends. They will go for boat rides every Dec 10 to celebrate navy day. The Sub would be noticed.
what you guys could be taking about could be a Midget sub or ASDS for Spec. Op. if I were to think aloud. KNS Tana or Galana could pose as Mother ships. Spec. Ops equip.always goes unmentioned. Such a purchase could pass unnoticed. The Kenya navy Spec Op has been upgraded a lot from a diving unit to a Spec Op fighting force .noticed their gears and equipments in the 27 Aug. parade.
the 2006 arrival would have be the KNS-jasiri. you know how the story goes . just like the KAF L-159 Alca that almost materialized under a half wing CDR , Jasiri orders were done by a CDR who wasn’t a seafaring officer am sorry to say so. internal affairs i wouldn’t expound more. But at the moment Tangai ex- fighter pilot and Mwatete former Principal Warfare Officer for KNS Nyayo and latter the Fleet CDR are promising good procurements as you can see.
the 2016 boat will be one of a kind if it is implemented at the present moment.
@Risasi
iam told this KNS jasiri is due to be delivered soon after all the issues concerning it have been resolved recently
BUT i can see that it is clasiffied as a naval survey vessel.and can also function as a coastal patrol vessel
SO what is the main difference with the current kns FLEET?
@SPIDERman, This namesake ship baffles me. it’s issue was at one time being handled by the highest authorities, C-in-C and Spanish royal family level. hey resolved the issue and the ship was supposed to be delivered. that was early this year, i don’t know what happened next. I think part of the complexities in delivering this ship arises from it’s ambiguous classification. when you look at it’s picture the corvette has gun and missile mounts in it’s superstructure yet it is classified as a Oceanographic Survey ship. No wonder the K.N rushed to appease astilleros gondan when they threatened to take the matter to the court of arbitration.
@ ole Nkarei – a scout pn, isn’t it?
Have always been puzzled by this British way of having multiples in place of squads.
I have the following question: who will man the 60mm mortar?
Was also wondering about the GPMG’s: are these a) the lighter individual weapons, or ) the larger crew-served ones? If a is correct, I’d think two per pn is not enough. If b is correct, they will probably need to go to a separate weapons squad together with the mortar.
Isn’t a 8.6mm sniper rifle too specialized a weapon to be organic at pn level? In many terrains, engagement distances are such that anything but the SVD is excessive..
@Mugwiira. You are one switched-on dude, I tell you! I hope when push comes to shove, you will be in my corner. This is the new thinking in kDoD. A very aggressive tasking, it does look, no? Before I respond, I wonder if “D” and the others would offer their insight into it.
@ole nkerai
i think what you have put up there is the typical search, strike and destroy posture with direct and discreet over kill formation i deal for the NORTHERN FRNTIER DISTRICTS kenya..
looks very deadly but what set up will you have for back up and extraction fall back position if you engage a superior numbered force unexpectedly?this what JK would have told us to plan before execution
You guys make me proud to be kenyan, and I dare the UPDF to qualify!! Just a quick one, Spider. JK was an absolute spots, and no Military plan is complete/approved without just that. Let’s see what the others make of it too.
Almost 10 to 12years ago just to add on i think you may recall when one platoon of KA chaps got caught out while on a training mission somewhere in the northern eastern area.The officer leading the team failed to properly interprate the rules of engagement causing the over 200 rug tag thugs they had met to take from the ka chaps their weapons and transport..
IT took the Deployment of other assets including an over fly by F5 tigers over the thugs known area of operation before thugs returned the KA equipment.MOI was very upset i recall..
I COULD BE WRONG but i believe that officer who was in charge ended up loosing his job after a court martial inquiry?
I am kinda averse to water in depths greater than my ” Nakumatt Karai”, infact I just cannot understand why a perfectly normal chap like Jasiri would chose that vector to wage deadly war! Me, I want my feet on firm ground most of the time, but don’t mind floating a while to get to some firm ground! Anyway, the Channel was dredged, but only to increase the displacement capacity so as to take larger ships what were then starting to take up both Military and Maritime shipping. Made all the difference between Dar es salaam and Mombasa, killed off the later to a secondary port of call. From a working paper I espied a while back, it is determined that Kilindini / Mtongwe are not suited for a Sub-base due to several factors, the most critical being the length of the egress-channel and the size of the mouth of egress into this channel that makes it kinda hard to defend – a Covert teams like our CDU can quite easily shut down this channel tighter than a Champagne Bottle. Moreover Subs do not enter Home Ports submerged for obvious reasons. Then it appears that the Reef at Kilindini coastal areas is just too close to shore, raising turbulence and making defense against submerged hostiles near impossible – sonar is compromised to a large extent by this factor. As for Kenya taking on a Mini-sub for possible use in Covert Insertions along our Coast, I haven’t seen or heard this suggestions made. We have yet unused capacity to successfully and as often as possible carry out covert insertions and extractions along the coast to the Entry of the Red Sea, both Sea, Land and Air borne. Until I see a greater Surface fleet foot-print, very much like the sea pirate Jasiri indicates above, I would discount Subs joining our spearhead. No Services gripesintended here, Jasiri!!
Col, for a ground hog you are pretty knowledgeable about naval matters. yes the coral formations on the mouth of the kilidini channel make it IMPOSSIBLE for a sub to egress the port while submerged. it clutters the sonar and makes it almost similar to Risasi doing his thing at night with his FLIR n RADAR jammed shut except in this case risasi can actually see where he’s going as opposed to the sailors aboard a sub.
Mtongwe also presents another challenge like Nkarei puts it because of it’s funnel shape. a single sub with a skilled captain will CLOSE DOWN the port of mombasa and Mtongwe N.B just like the situation the russians faced during the cold war in relation to it’s northern fleet base of severomorsk.
for the millionth time col, i am not neither have i been a serving member of the kenya armed forces. i’m just a civillian who knows a little too much about the military.
Col Sir, Beegeagle suggested that I contact you with the following query:
What is the serviceability level of Kenya’s 22 F-5s, Hawks and Tucanos and the flight hours ? Kenya seems to have kept its fighter fleet serviceable through thick and thin and retained a high standard of training on the type – conducting air to air firing training.
Obviously, new fighters are needed, but still the F-5 seems to have been sustained for a long time in Kenya as a viable fighter rather than a parade plane.
I am surprised we have not seen the Hawks in action.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Beegeagle sends his regards and complements.
it seems like uncle sam has succeded in persuading evan not to sell S300 missile systems to IRAN
are we seeing a shift in dynamics and is it preamble to an isreali pre- emptive strike here?
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/kremlin/22-09-2010/115034-russia_iran_s300-0/
@ ole Nkarei – I’m flattered, but will probably be just a burden (outside S2/G2) if things get really tough.:)
This new TOE is indeed very aggressive. They won’t apply it force-wide, will they? Because it will be like turning the whole Kenya Army into one large specops force.
ole nkarei consider these views as well on you formation
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=63000
Oops.. Wasn’t this a bit unfair, ole Nkarei?
Suddenly, I am less impressed.
me too ..i am thinking of how to respond to this new information.
BUT LETS SOLDIER on …with caution
Hey, “D” – your response to the below cited 30 Man Platoon Outline? Anyone else want’s to put in their two bits?
Manning
1 Officer, 1 Sergeant, 2 Corporals, 2 Lance Corporals, 24 other ranks
Weapons.
30 x Individual Weapons/Carbines (5.56mm)
6 x 40mm UGL kits, or 40mm launchers
2 x GPMG (7.62mm)
2 x Long Range Rifles (8.6mm)
1 x 60mm Mortar Hand Held
2 x MAW, – Alcotan / Panzerfaust / 84mm
M72 type LAW and M200 type Rifle grenade issued as required.
3 x ATGM Posts held for Anti-armour mission
Communications
30 x PRR
6 x PRC-148 or 710 type multi-band hand held.
1 x HF Manpack
6 x Commanders GPS sets (PLGR) and PDAs
Night Vision
30 x NVG and IR Weapons pointer
4 x Weapons mounted Long Range Night Sight
4 x Thermal Weapons sight
6 x Light Weight Laser Range Finder
Organisations –
organised by mission, transport and operational requirement.
2 x Multiples
Each multiple is 3 x 5 man teams. Each multiple Commanded by the Platoon
Commander, and the Platoon Sergeant.
3 x Sections
3 Sections of 2 x 5 man teams, or each section as 3,3,4 groups.
5 x Sections of 6 men
6 Sections of 5 men.
Transport (as dismounts)
5 x 6 man APC
4 x 8 man APC (2 spare seats)
3 x 10 man APC
10 x M/WMIK crews (2 Sections of 5 vehicles)
With Baited Breathe I await!!
……i had to bring that post closer am using a very tiny screen with limited time. Kupotea sio kwa ubaya duty calls i answer. On to the issue at hand. Looks like a spec ops or recce platoon. Might also be an airborne element. 1 officer is fair enough but for a platoon that size 2 sergeants are optimum, 4 corporals and 4-6 lance corporals. Add 6 specialized troops (snipers, demo experts, SIGINT and Radio operator/Foward Observer etc). Everyone is a rifleman so Primary weapons loadout looks good, add 30x sidearm preferably semi auto pistols just for the fun of it.
The rest of the weapons look good only that i would prefer 7.62 mm chambered sniper rifles. I would go for 6 sections x 4 men each (machine gunner teams and specialized troops not factored into main advancing element) in 4×8 man APCs.
Recon Plat. guys! kinda like the USMC element. You know, going forward into the future, large formations have no attraction as war evolves into very rapidly prosecuted maximum force of very quick and sharp exchanges. Firepower capabilities have grown exponentially, and One Uniformed well trained Soldier carries enough on himself to counter-balance a half-platoon during the Korea hostilities of the fifties. And this ratio is going to get even more pronounced. So, at the kDoD the new strat-thinking is along in this tangent – very compact, specialists and special armed / trained tightly segmented Units with radically increased independent Control of aggressor-action, but within a larger Formation C / C. Such would be extremely easier to mobilise and deploy / extract by any means available and just as easier to keep supplied during deployment in hostile sectors. In terms of cost-benefit, it will cost a hell of a lot for a single-unit (Soldier) to train / equip / maintain / motivate, but the amounts spent will be greatly optimized by better utilization and dispersal. Damn! Interesting times ahead, Yo!!
Looks like an advanced ranger team. Good concept I would standardize the rounds to 5.56mm. get read of the GPMG and change it with the latest in the armories the IMI Negev or FN Minimi. 1 PRC-148 per man team for accountability. vehicles of choice Land Rover WMIK or Jackal 2.
good concept small segments can recce before engagements.
It seems you guys have abandoned nipate-anyway,one question. I was informed and also read that the 5.56mm is too light for serious work at 200m+. Is it wise to leave the proven power of the 7.62 nato which is still lethal at up to 800m?????
@ admin
Kindly change the heading of this blog. It’s too demeaning and an insult to right-thinking and patriotic Kenyans.
The display by our flyboys on Sunday was not done using junk fighters. Those birds are capable of instilling fear in both friend and foe by the noise of their engines alone let alone the superb skill that I saw and the capability of the weapons that they carry. And they really move very fast. I wonder what will happen once we get our hands on the 4+ Generation Eagles………only time will tell.
hello guys, just wondering…
Is there a systematic way this disengation would have been done peacably considering a split would involve personnel and equipment? story on the standard…
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000028411&cid=517&story=Sudan%20army%20mutiny%20in%20southern%20oil%20state,%2050%20killed
I have to say an f-15 or the upgraded strike eagle or the euro fighter or Dassault Rafale or the sukhois or migs there is no contest in speed or close combat dog fighting capabilities between an f-5 and those aircraft. true these planes entered service in the 80s and i think before that but you got to remember the f-5 was a quick replacement to the ageing f-4 phantom during the early days of the vietnam war. I do love historic airplanes like this they are nice to see in action but in a real time war they would not stand a chance against one of newer aircraft. I am a big fan of the f-5 but i feel this article isnt right. I do hope the airforce sees and upgrade similar to the t-72s that the army saw or the very brand new sniper rifles they got .
Hi guys, what happened to mv jasiri,and the f-5 purchase was really a waste of tax payers money.wud support if we up graded to f-15s and above.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warandpeace.ru%2Fru%2Fnews%2Fview%2F49224%2F
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviationunion.ru%2Fnews_second.php%3Fnew%3D178
[…] Roughly 18 Northrop-built F-5Es and Fs represent the major combat capability of the Kenyan air force. Nairobi originally purchased F-5s from the U.S. in the late 1970s; in 2008 Nairobi spent $23 million to acquire another 15 used F-5s from the Jordanian air force. The Jordanian jets were reportedly in poor shape. […]
Where are those F-5s there is no info on public pedia known as wikipedia as well as my links says limited F-5s are grounded (supposed acquired).
I have read all your comments about the F-5 that u our kenyan brothers seem to glorify and someone mentioned about 400 being used in the US airforce inventory!am surprised that you can even quote the US Airforce website! The United States Airforce stopped using the F-14 tomcat years ago,wat do u think they need the F-5 for???lets be serious. You go on about being in Kampala in 48hours,i dare to do so……dont you know the road to Kampala??come and lets see how u do it.Uganda has acquired the latest in Sukhoi aircraft technology and as i type,i witnessed the delivery of more aircraft today at the Entebbe airforce base.You might say am lying,but it happened this afternoon.Uganda boasts of up to 12 Mig-21 aircraft,8 Mig-23 aircraft and will as of June next year have 8 SU-30 MK2 aircraft.Am not boasting,but please do the maths on this one.Meanwhile,bear in mind that our Mig-21 aircraft have been upgraded to Mig-29 status by the IAIof Isreal.Please make comments based on facts,not egos!!!!
Kamikahoantony
it seems you are too ignorant or simply very stupid.
WHO told you that USA does not operate the F5?
the F5 is still used by all the air forces of the USA as a first gap trainer and also aggressor training aircraft.
A total of MORE 2200 F5 werre built and most of them are still in service in various countries in EUROPE,ASIA,CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
@kampikaho Anthony join me at this.
http://eastafrican.userboard.net/login
most of the bloggers have moved here
regards
The Crane
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Whoever may come here and read, Kenyan Air Force should by 2015 purchase F-16V Block 50+ variant. The reason is the only technologically advance enough and with-in cost for a future Air Force upgrade still going strong is F-16V (latest variant showed at Singapore air show in 2012). Other than F-16 based on merit and the the cost Russian Yak -131/133 and Pak-China FC-1/F-17 are the candidates.
F-16V/C/D Variants complete kit and package without life cost of maintainence is $45-65M based on new airframe or US Stock Inventory with very low airframe life.
YAK-131/133 which is advance trainer as well as can be used as a light Attack and is much and advanced than F-5 variants. Total cost 15M just the plane with weapons etc $18M
FC-1 Block II Cost $20-25M including weapons, Block III with AESA would come into production by 2016/2017, All Block II would be upgraded to Block III in terms of avionics- Radar.
IF Kenya wants to super save money even though knowing the neighbors have Sukhio 30/Mig 29s than YAK 131/133 vriant of YAK 130. OR IF kenya wants a potent 4 Gen and by 2017 4+Gen Fighter and can spare between 20-25M than FC-1/F-17 Pak-China.
Lastly F-16 is an expensive advanture with $45-65M dent to the pockets on every single plane. Have your say sane people only F-5 is a dead meat by next couple of Year no matter how much you upgrade it it cannot station a decent powerful AESA radar. Ture you can upgrade it like brazilians who have the mot modern F-5s out there but you still need to spare atleast $5M dollars on each F-5 and these F-5 that jordan has i believe already sold to brazil if you get the rest are alteast 22 Years old think why would you operate a 22 Year old airframe at 20Year airframe life is over for most planes rest is in the hands of luck unless you spend money on a junk for refurbishment by US which doesn’t make sense.
This story appears to be written by a person who did not do his/her research on the topic.
The F-5s that the Jordanians purchased in 1989 were not the same as those used in the ‘60s or ‘70s.
Many countries including Brazil have made upgrades to modernize this airframe; such improvements could be made by Kenya with little expense.
The author makes a big deal of the fleet being over 20 years old but this is about the same age as the USAF F15-E, Strike Eagle and somehow we keep these flying.
Some have commented that Kenya should by some Gen 4.5 fighters which is also somewhat impractical.
Kenya needs to determine if they want expensive tarmac ornaments (like the Ugandan SU-30) or something that is cost effective and meets the nation’s defense capability needs.
A few years ago the US Congress had the Government Accounting Office study the operating costs of each of the airframes in our inventory, the F-5 A.K.A. T-38 is still used and costs less than $2,000/hr to operate whereas the F-15 costs ~$12,500/hr to fly and the smaller F-16 costs ~$6,000/hr.
I have seen estimates that the SU-30 operating costs are also in the range of $12K/hr.
What would Kenya get for $23M and $2K/hr fly costs?
-Supersonic & highly maneuverable Dogfighter
-Many inexpensive upgrade possibilities (Brazil) to include air refueling, and upgraded avionics
-Supply chain, ground support and training requirements common with current aircraft
Advanced Fighter Jets, which cost $50-100M, to buy and $6-12+K/hr to fly don’t do any good without millions per pilot in training, and a fortune in ground support training and supply and infrastructure.
If it were my call, I would go for the most modern F-5s that I could get my hands on and save the corruption talk for the areas where it is actually a problem.
[…] […]
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I just saw a T-38 on the line the other day, still a great plane and its cousin the F-5E is still used as an aggressor aircraft.
Aleem and some others made some good points but I think that the F-16 Block 50, or the FC-1/F-17 could be prohibitively expensive and may be unnecessary for the mission of the Kenyan Air Force. The YAK is relatively cheap but it would still require retooling and retraining every Airman the acquisition of one aircraft would cost nearly as much as all the planes purchased from Jordan.
Recent history has demonstrated that the Kenyan Air Force is far more likely to operate in support of ground forces fighting terrorists in Toyota trucks with AK-47s than going toe to toe with the latest generation of fighter jets.
I think that it is appropriate to focus on the concept of appropriate technology; you need to start by identifying the capabilities that are needed not what looks sexy on the tarmac.
The F-16 is a killing machine in the sky but like any superstar soccer (football) striker it can only be used to its full potential if it has the training/support infrastructure on the ground and coordination with other players in the air, otherwise it’s just another sexy plane on the tarmac.
The Jordanian F-5E/Fs provide a familiar weapon system which your airmen are proficient at maintaining, they are simple to maintain and inexpensive to fly, this translates into a sustainable/effective weapons system with a high readiness rate.
The Chronicle Staff would do well to consult with actual Airmen or do the research which I (all open sources) did before publishing their next piece on combat aircraft.
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LOL.. people in this day and age still fly F-5 junks. I hope Ugandan Airforces’ Su-30s shit on them and wipe them out as soon as they take off.
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Rich Switzerland still uses the F5. Google for proof.