Kenya Airforce buys junk fighter jets

Reports in Kenya’s media indicate that the country’s airforce will spend US$23 million acquiring obsolete fighter jets to revamp its fleet.

A Kenya Airforce F-5 fighter jet. Picture by Wikipedia.

A Kenya Airforce F-5 fighter jet. Picture by Wikipedia.

According to the Standard newspaper, Kenya will replace its own aging F-5 fighter jets with 15 F-5s being disposed by the Jordanian Airforce. The government will pay Kshs1.5 billion ($23 million at current rates) for acquisition and transportation of the craft from Jordan. The money will also cater for spare parts and the training of Kenyan crews.

The $23 million price tag for used, obsolete fighter craft may raise more than a little eyebrows. Kenya’s economy was badly affected by violence early this year following disputed elections in December 2007. Though the government has pledged to rebuild vandalized properties and to compensate those affected by the clashes, funds are difficult to come by. Government estimates put the reconstruction budget at Shs31 billion ($500 million).

Corruption allegations in government circles may hinder the flow of funds from traditional donor nations. At the same time, uncertainty caused by political wrangling is expected to slow down investment, further undermining economic performance. Rising food and oil prices are hitting the population especially hard, further worsening the effects of poverty and 60% unemployment.

The F-5 fighter jet was developed by Northrop Corporation in the 1950s as a light combat aircraft. During the Cold War, the F-5 proved popular with allies of the United States especially in the developing world. Kenya acquired its F-5 fleet in the 1970s and 80s and probably wants to replace its aging aircraft by acquiring the same model elsewhere.

However, the last F-5 was built in 1989, indicating that the Jordanian jets are at least 20 years old. Airforce top brass are yet to explain why they could not buy new fighter jets that are readily available in the international arms market.

This would not be the first time that a purchase of military hardware in Kenya is causing scandal. An ally of President Mwai Kibaki was forced to resign several years ago, after it emerged that a ship the Navy had ordered was a converted civilian vessel. Kenya’s Police force has also come under heavy criticism for buying oversized, second hand helicopters from Russia, and whose maintenance is becoming very expensive.

Within East Africa, Uganda, has experienced a “junk helicopters” scandal. The government of President Yoweri Museveni bought obsolete helicopters from Russia at above-average prices. One of the helicopters crashed in 2006, killing among other people the new President of Southern Sudan, Dr John Garang.

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1,464 Responses

  1. I have a feeling this might spill over into the African commercial aviation market as well especially for the regional airlines.

    A lot of tier 1 airlines are shedding their gas-guzzling, aging aircraft for newer, more fuel-efficient ones and it is not a stretch of the imagination to assume where these planes will end up.

  2. I understand the concern for transparency regarding this fighter deal given the history of corruption, especially under Moi.

    However, the F-5 is still a front line fighter in service in the air forces of Turkey, Greece, Spain, etc. It has a proven combat history and is less expensive to maintain than modern combat aircraft like the F-15, Tornado or Mirage. Obtaining 15 aircraft with spares for $23 million is a baragain considering one new F-15 costs for that $30 million each. The F-5 is far from “junk.” In fact, the US Air force still has 600-700 in use as trainers.

    Kenya needs to upgrade it’s jet fighters but on a budget. It is a strategic country in a growing neighborhood of instability.

    • my friend,the point you are putting across is very pedestrian.it’s like comparing an ibm 486 pc with a toshiba satelitte laptop.

      they are all in the market,but one is obsolete!!!!!!!!!

  3. i agree with dan – what’s all this about f 5′s from Jordan are crap planes – the f5 tiger is still a force to reckon with – with speeds of upto mach 1.7 -it can rival any fighter jet in the world when dogfighting – ask the swiss and the turks who still have many f 5′s in their inventory – what people need to know is that the Kenyan airforce is buying the latest version of the f5 family which is the f 5em – this version is still the same model as the old ones but with modern avionics – this jets can also refuel midair like the f5em’s of the brazillian airforce – so go kenya get the planes. Yes dan maintaining them is cheaper – and boy can those planes move !!

  4. hey guys we need new stuff from cooking oil to combat planes.the year is 1986 my first time to see our air force f-5`s during ask kapsabet show.it was also the year which the last of this tigers assembling contract was expiring! almost 3 decades down and we still see them.at least the ministry of defence ought to allocate cash to better fighters even if not latest.go for russian mig 23s and others.lets update our forces please.thank you

    • what people should know is that with modern avionics,the f-5 will be as good as any other fightet.for as long as the airframe hours are within limits.we should upgrade our equipment considering the potent threat of al shabab militia

      • Going by the fact that Kenya we are still in the third developing countries and that our armed force is one of the very best established in central and east Africa, talking of acquiring these 15 jets will mean a great boost to our force giving the fact that i being a pilot in the Kenya air force and flying this f-5 with all the knowledge what it actually can do on combat mission leaves no doubt but to directly go for these avionics configured crafts…..kudos kenya just go for it…n get me as one of the delivery pilot…i just love it…

      • Going by the fact that Kenya we are still in the third developing countries and that our armed force is one of the very best established in central and east Africa, talking of acquiring these 15 jets will mean a great boost to our force giving the fact that i being a pilot in the Kenya air force and flying this f-5 with all the knowledge what it actually can do on combat mission leaves no doubt but to directly go for these avionics configured crafts…..kudos kenya just go for it…n get me as one of the delivery pilot…i just love it…no more rush and waits in the line to fly for training with extra 15 crafts…just cant wait

      • “modern avionics”? seriously? modern comes nowhere close to describing the avionics in these planes. “modern” avionics can drop precision-guided munitions, “modern” avionics can interface with other friendly planes in the air, “modern” avionics can take advantage of advanced weapons like the AIM 120 or at least the AIM 7 sparrow. the best these can do is drop dumb bombs and fire off a few early-model sidewinders.

  5. buying an F5 today as your top fighter is like buying old ford cortinas and peogeot 203 and you expect them to compete with top of the range BMW”s , toyota VX and subaru imprezas. for Gods sake the ethopians and the ugandans are flying the SU27 and MIG23 respectively and we pride ourself that we have an airforce. the truth is our airforce is more geared towards providing V.I.P services to govement dignitaries than being combat ready. thats why the V.I.P section of the airforce has top of the range executive jets ( the dash series ) backed by the Y12.while the fighter section makes do with obsolute F5,s that are almost 30 years old and out of production.

    • Uganda doesn’t have Mig 23s…save us the bar stool tales. Ethiopia yes…UG, wacha zako

      • Look out for the new fleet UG has. its only seen in Egypt and Algeria. They have brand new Sukhoi Su-30 from Russia, which are comparable with the American version.

      • Which world do u live in? Uganda has had MiG 23s for over ten years. And now Sukhoi MKII. Better revise your basic Int.

  6. we should learn to change with times. the F5 is outdated and obsolute and if thats what our commanders are ordering for the airforce, it means that their military knowledge is also outdated and obsolute. one shudders to imagine what they are ordering for the other services. it is not a question of money because our neighbours i.e ethiopia and uganda are purchasing better equipment and yet our economy is far bigger than for the two countries. we are just not taking our security seriously.

  7. um… why do we need them again? the only real wars have been civil, so unless we want to light ourselves on fire…
    For this reason I think I will be able to live with the fact that we got F5′s instead of some hot shot modern avionic BVR wallet dissolving army candy!
    I mean why spend for the latest and greatest? I’m content with the F5′s.

    • The risk from our very own neighbors is very real, considering that resources are shared..like the lake…when things become thick, countries will start thinking of themselves..look at the way Egypt is bullying the great lake region countries over how usage of the Lake’s waters…expect more of these issues in the future.

      The problem is that it is civillians who are pushing for these army supply tenders and only have profit motive, not Kenyan interest at heart..that is why we will always have shit army and naval equipment….its not the first time either…the other day Murungaru wanted us to have some Czechoslovakian jets that were crappy in the eyes of the air force that was set to put them to use.

      unless the elite starts thinking of the country, and our military stops wasting time drinking tax free beer, as well as the recruitments being majorly from central kenya (hence the mentality of the recruits that the military is a place to relax)..we will never be safe from any of our neighbours

    • Benjamin a thief do not warn you that I am coming to steel from you tomorrow. With the upcoming external and internal pressures the country is facing today, we really need the modern hardware in our Kenyan millitary. Actually you will not believe the fact that Uganda Army (UPDF) is the most powerful in East Africa today!!! Let us catch up with our neighbours. Maybe they are restucturing to take over Migingo!!!!What shall we fight back with?? Rungus and matchets because the machines we have do not work any more????

  8. the fact of the matter is that we need to feel secure in our on country and thats why we need a fighter aircraft that can meet the modern challenges of todays warfare. by the way u dont need any modern weapons to do civil war. in the rift valley they were using bows and arrows and in rwandas genocide the most effective weapon was the panga. so we can light ourselves up weather we have modern weapons or not. kenya being the most powerfull country in this region economically also needs to be the most powerfull militarilly. thats why we need 2 have the best fighter aircraft that can outfly anything our neighbours have. our neighbours are busy arming their countries with modern stuff while we are still depending on techonology that went out of production 30 years ago. (F5). THAT DEAL STINKS OF CORRUPTION. and thats why some people are ready 2 compromise our security by buying cheap and outdated stuff for our military.

  9. steve the f-5 is ok. you can imagine that the usa had offered them to taiwan against the chinesse until late 80,s. if they were not worth it wouldn,t that be sucidal. for east africa the f-5 are dam good and the airforce has more the 30 years in dealing with that craft. when it comes to fighter the pilot carry more marks then the planes i.e u can have a sophsticate plain but if ur guys are poorly trained it no good. and training comes with time. in the force they is over 30 year experince with this craft. about the mig 23 i think u meant mig 29. its endurance time to stay in the air is infact lower then the f5. let me enlighten you on tactics. during the ethopia/eretrain war the the ethopia new from the russian that endurance time of the mig 29 was less then the su 27 and mig29 burns tons of fuel during climbing. so during dog fight the ethopians toyed with the eretrian on high low manuevors . the mig 29 ran out of fuel and when they had to turn to base thats when the ethopian nailed them. so tactics of the pilots and training carry more then 60% of a war

    • Seems you know something. Now can you tell us about the range of F5s compared to Ugandan Sukhoi Su-30??? Haki Migingo itaenda na hakuna kitu Kenya Army itafanya.

  10. These are very old planes ill suited for modern warfare. During the cold war, the F5 was dished out like candy by the US to counter the roughly equivalent Soviet Mig 21, another very obsolute plane. All users of the F5 are getting rid of them (this explains why Jordan is no longer interested in the damn things). The Turks, Greeks, Taiwanese, Norwegians, Saudis, Koreans, Swiss, Dutch, Canadians, Pakistanis, Singaporeans, Spanish, Philipinos etc etc have either fully disposed off these planes or are in the process of doing so. If they are used, it is often for recon, lead in training, targets, etc etc NOT as a frontline fighter. The decsion to purchase these relics is nothing short of bizarre!

  11. risasi, pole i took long 2 answer you. you dont mean 2 tell me you buy out dated equipment then u say u will rely on tactics? yes tactics work but combined with the mordern equipments its even better. the f5 lacks the range, the speed, the radar and even the avionics 2 survive in todays combat enviroment. most combat planes of today have digital multi functions cockpits while the f5s cockpits is dials and many poimter needles, this increases the pilots workload. it is also a fuel guzzler and thus spends very little time in the air and has a limited range. it is an aircraft of yesteryears and i must admit it was good during its day.

  12. Dan, Chalo and Risasi seem to be the only knowledgeable lot to have offered comments on the F5′s. The F5 is still in active service today in the US Air Force and Navy as a tactical fighter. You don’t need to offer comments if you cannot do basic research even on the US Air Force website where factual information is freely available for anyone who’s interested. Someone talked about obsolete avionics not bothering to find out which version of the F5 is being bought! Those who fly or have flown F5′s will tell you it’s still as good as when it was commissioned and when you talk of aged aircraft, B52 Long Range aircraft that were manufactured in 1952 are still in active service in the US Air Force among other equally old aircraft like the Black Bird that was commissioned in 1961 and still in active duty!

    • now you are talking my brother someone needs to impact sense to these guys talking negative of this great deal for Kenya…let them consult me for the knowledge on capability of this aircraft will even take them 4 a ride if they talk to kianga as am a f-5 pilot in Kenyan air force

  13. I disagree with all these issues about the F5′s being old. What may be old on those planes is only the external frame the avionics weapon systems are all up to date.
    Apart from the Oil rich gulf states and the developed world very few countries can afford to purchase brand new and quality fighter planes.So what happens is countries like Israel have come up with ways of Modernizing Old fleets for some countries and i belief thats what has happened with the F5′s

  14. Norway is buying 48 F-35′s at a price tag of 4 billion US dollars. This is a population of 4.5. With or without Nato, they can kanyanga Kenya like mavi ya kuku.
    Kenya should buy the swedish jas Grippen!! and give the f5′s to the anti-stock theft unit or askari ”karae”.
    Faida gani kununua mitumba when you are living in neigbourhood like ours?

  15. I have never flown nor am i an expert on military jets but i have profound interest borne of unfulfilled childhood dreams. I follow the subject religiously and in my opinion DAN,CHALO & RISASI have goodviews.why are we always reluctant to upgrade our fighter jets inspite of ready threats in our belligerent neighbours who are better equiped?F5s are best left for training fighter pilots

  16. guys i believe we’ve missed the boat by the river.we should ask ourselves why the jordanians are selling those relics.our fighters were bought ages ago,but have never been upgraded,even the avionics.if the country could afford to waste 10 billion shillings on a stupid referendum whose outcome was obvious,then i believe we can modernise our airforce.the operative word here is MODERNIZE not buying junks.by the way another referendum is on the way and it wont be free.get the point?

  17. nasema kitu gani wewe!!! am back from my vacation.
    Kenya has added more to its list . Z-9 from china for your information. why Kenya bought the so called relics ? these Jordain aircraft are well maintained and are up to date .they sold them after a confirmation of a supply of f-16 by the US. these birds are just a gap filler before new Chinese jets come along they server the purpose.(or now may be US fightr with Obama in power). they have a mid-flight refuel system upgrade avionic and in board flight system. look around and tell me who has that in east, central and part of south and north Africa.

    • we Risasi wacha porojo mingi. Unless kenya is buying J-11′s from China, i’d rather we stick with our skoshi tigers. J-17 are lso a good find and i’d bet all my 2 eggs that that is what Kenya will opt for if they trully go for Sino warplanles. Lakini mukununua J-10′s we are screwed! to me those were just an ego boosting machine for the chinese. With the same engine as the MiG-29 (Saturn Lyulka AL-31F) that burns a ton of fuel just climbing, we might suffer the same fate as the Eritreans!

      • jasiri very true we do not need Chinese military hardware from guns to aircrafts, these guys just copy and mass produce everything they come across

    • we Risasi wacha porojo mingi. Unless kenya is buying J-11′s from China, i’d rather we stick with our skoshi tigers. J-17 are lso a good find and i’d bet all my 2 eggs that that is what Kenya will opt for if they trully go for Sino warplanles. Lakini mukununua J-10′s we are screwed! to me those were just an ego boosting machine for the chinese. With the same engine as the MiG-29 (Saturn Lyulka AL-31F) that burns a ton of fuel just climbing, we might suffer the same fate as the Eritreans!
      by the way what advantage does an air-to-air refuelling system provide to the airforce when we don’t have tankers?

      • I can,t say that Kenya is buying J-17or not. but its a good options as it is an upgrade of the Israeli F-16 built in china. The mig-29 burns fuels as its meant to climb abnormally fast. So if you lift its nose there goes the fuel dial.

      • By the way the Eritrean Air Force has managed to procured 6 Su-27

  18. reply 2 risasi, wellcome back from your vacation, its only 3 three f5″s from the jordanian collection that have mid air refueling and for your infomation kenya does not have airborne fuel tankers. we simply cant afford them and they are not of strategic importance 2 us. so the quetion of mid air refueling does not arise. the chinese z9 is acttually a light utility helicopter with little combat use, they will most likely be used for shuttling top brass around. pls this info is available in the internet for everone to see.

  19. common men its not personal. dot be so tha way…. for inform fighter can perform mid flight refuel among themselve. and also for low buget airforces there avoilable kits that can tconvert their normal cargo plane to tankers and back . Z9 will beused for shuttling top brass around .wats wrong with that? you just want them to stay in th hangers?in wartime they wil be used for logistics shipments.

  20. Guys, I dont mean to rub your noses in the dust, but I gotta hand it to some of you for ignorance. You all ought to read what risasi has given, man knows his thing for sure. But as a Military Man, I can tell you without contradiction that our Armed Forces is without equal in these parts. Our Air force had complete Air dominance at present in the East African skies. Bear in mind what Risai says about the balance of power being tilted to the Pilot than the plane – it works similarly with all ordnance. In Simulations we have repeatedly carried out yearly, on the board though, our Armed Forces are shown to be entrenched in Kampala City within 48 hours of engagement and to wipe out all active organised resistence in Kampala within 72 hours of jump-off from the border!! Ask any military officer who has engaged in our War games at DOD, if you reckon I am blowing smoke.

  21. i have never had fighters perform mid air refuel among them selves, its simply impossible, maybe converting cargo planes might make sense but i we dont have that capability. to answer tom, i like your patriotism an i also belive in my country but in war things are different. never underate ur enemy an dont think ug can be such a walk over, in my estimate war between the two countries can never have a clear winner an might end up being long an costly to both sides. the only advantage we might have over them is to stop their goods passing in kenya, esp oil. having air dominace over them i dont think so coz they are known to fly mig 21 which are equal to our f5s and also mig 23 which are far better than f5. their ground air defence capabilites are also fomidable. their tank force is obsolute consisting mainly T54 an T55 most of which are grounded due to poor maintance, but they have a large infantry force, far larger than ours and most of them are battle hardened. its been nice corresponding with you guys an i finally rest my case an end this correspondence.

    • “Guys, I dont mean to rub your noses in the dust, but I gotta hand it to some of you for ignorance.” Never say impossible buddy. Tafadhali don’t be adamant bout things you know little of. How do you think carrier based aicraft refuel?

      • WE do not need air refuelling in order to wage war with uganda from the main fighter base IN nanyuki….. a fully prepared F5 bomber can take off from Nanyuki…and drop ordnance in kampala within six to seven minutes of flying time.likewise we can sort out most of somalia from wajir forward base and sudan from lokichogio….

  22. we

  23. Wisdom Archived?

    Declassified
    thanks Tom for the good word you passed across. And for Steve it was a pleasure in the conversation . wish you the best in your endeavors. i like to inform people esp. when matters pertaining military ignorance and second hand info that floats around.i understand due to lack of first hand information people would always create and rely on rumors and hear say to fill in the vacuum. its natural.

    what Tom told you is a tip of classified info. and i will shade more light on it and anybody how wish to enlighten himself let him do so. mweneye macho haambiwi tazama.

    yes there is corruption in Kenya and the military system. but do you think that the military is stupid or naive in decisions making and procurement? items would be purchased slight above the normal selling price due to kick backs and so forth. but is the staff worth it?.

    kDOD does a lot of classified Ops that don,t reach the common mwanainchi and it is in this ops and exercise that deter any large minded neighbor from any act of aggression.they was a time when our western border neighbor was bring alot of trouble? being an immanent guerrilla he wanted to extend his empire to our country? to make the long story short, boys were trained in Libya with intentions of crossing our border in the west into Kenya. to achieve this ambition a package of an anti aircraft system. a radar and missile batteries and guns. was establish by our western neighbor meant to deter the then 82AF. Most of their MiG,s were grounded at this time. do you remember those guys and those days. and ask your self what happened to his ambition. why he change direction and went to Congo DRC to make trouble thereafter . why did in,t he go on to achieve his ambition? .well this what happened . one Sunday evening we sent 2 fighter across the border to test his new acquire air defense system. at around 5:30 – 6:00 pm local time when his solider were queuing up for supper rationing and most of the anti aircraft guns were unmanned , our “Cats” (nick name for F-5 tigers ) flew above them at a very low speed and height that the ground crew could definitely recognize the black,red and green ensigns paintings at the tails of the above air crafts. the F-5,s rolled over and did low speed maneuvers. when they realized what was going on, sounded alarms and scramble to there anti aircraft Guns. the Cats turned and headed back home. no bombs drop no guns fired but the war was over. their radar operators only managed to recognize “clumsy images ” on their screens.. that’s just some of it

  24. Su-27/MiG -23 vs F-5
    the Ethiopia Su-27 and Uganda MiG 23 are good in paper. can stay longer in the air and can go a great more distance.it has big engines and can climb and mover fast when need be. but they have a big shortcoming in the air which is virtual to us. they are to big and bulky for any formidable dogfight with a F-5.

    they need a large turning radius and without “thrust vectors engines” they can,t out perform an F-5 in a dogfight. the F-5 has one of the best weight to thrust ratio most fighter don,t have and can turn more quicker at short radius then them..i would therefore guess therefor strategy is to hit the F-5 at a distance well before any dogfight.this is KNOWN. tactics to counter such a strategy is also known.

  25. JUNK WARS ???
    the F-5 that Kenya bought from Jordan were top in there arsenal. Jordan sold some of its F-5 to Singapore to maintain and upgrade this ones. they then sold them to Kenya after they secured a deal of f-16 and their boys were confidant they could manage the new birds and not like scrap as it has been mention above. this fighters have come in as a bridge before Kenya can purchase and manage effectively a new fighter(normally in a span of 5 years). Chile Singapore Brazil turkey Swiss among many all modifying the F-5 until their airframes were air unworthy and could no longer take it anymore. even as latest F-16 were being procured upgradings of F-5 were going on and by the way these are not poor countries. they also have other aircraft’s in there hangars like Mirages, F-4 etc. why were they doing this ? is it just a shear love for this aircraft?or maybe they have too much to spend? maybe? you tell me. Iran not forget it with all it oil wealth has even add an extra tail to the F-5 and using it despite all it American embargo’s.

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/256431/irans_new_saegheh_fighter_enters_service/

    now ask your self what is it that this air force generals some in NATO spheres know about F-5 ,that they would only part with it after it physical structure can no longer support it, a last and final resort.why is it that they gave more life to this aircraft. i mean just take any other aircraft put in a digital screen a good radar on its nose ,computers and BVR missile under its wings and use it. so simple not so, but why the F-5?

  26. flight fueling Mr Steve:
    about mid flight refueling between fighter has been done since early 1920. this is done by simple pods called buddy tanking pods.

    how do you think the US Navy operates with out KC tanker in the deep sea in case of an eventuality.
    first you have to know why we need to refuel a fighter. i guess your answers is to achieve a long distance and time endurance. but this is just part of the story when it comes to tactics.for Evey aircraft to take off it has a maximum take off weigth.this is the amount of load it can take off with.i.e fuel plus ordinance. but the military has managed to go around this.it has been realize that once an aircraft is airborne and extra loading can be done to surpass its designed maximum takeoff weights.therefore with this in mind suppose a max. take off weight of aircraft is 1000kg then an aircraft can be loaded with 900kg of ordnance/weapons and 100kg of fuel just ample for take off. once airborne it can be filled with more fuel for its mission, share tactic Mr. Steve.
    below are some of refueling pod that Kenya is considering buying

    http://www.sargentfletcher.com/bus_dev/flyer_28_300_bbs.pdf.

    http://www.sargentfletcher.com/bus_dev/flyer_34_000_wp.pdf

    God willing you will see at this years end jamuhuri Day parade what you tax money has purchased

  27. Wisdom Archived?

  28. Seems like very many Kenyans are ignorant of our airforce ability! Thanks risasi for confirming all those stories my cousin (R.I.P.) in the airforce used to tell me while growing up.

  29. Going thru this debate made an interesting read. I gathered that an upgraded F-5 could match an SU-27?? Why can’t Kenya talk to Turkey? They assemble F-16s am sure we could get a better deal from this NATO partner.-Risasi sema.
    Mid-air refuelling for who- is Uganda Kenya’s major threat?? I think not Ethiopia has all it takes in the region we need to mordernise- our economy in 5 years can sustain a modern force. Andy

    • Yes Mr Andy was out of the office. About the Turkey F-16. In order to purchase them a node from the Pentagon has to accompany it. Although Turkey manufactures these jets the USA still has the right on the END USER AGREMENT.

      The F-5 vs Su -27 as in “Kenya vs Ethiopia” the F-5 has high chances of bring down the Su-27.
      one thing you have to bear in mind when the Russians were building this aircraft they had they own goals in mind. The prime goal was to encounter the USAF F-15 which has similar dimensions and range. At that moment Russians hadn,t a similar fighter. these two country being superpower ,long range ground and air radars were available to assist these aircraft in shoot down each other at a great distance. That’s when the Beyond Visual Range Missiles were developed. If by any chance they encountered each the F-15 and Su-27 were of the same dimension. This will again go back to the pilots to achieve any credible results. The Russia knew this and to change the balance in a dog fight. they developed the thrust vectors system in there Su-27.

      This is changing the direction of the jet thrust to help the fighter turn at a tight angle. Just like a motor Boat with an outboard engine. at this junction the new Su-27 has a great advantage in dog fight then most modern aircraft.

      But bear in mind Dog fighters a rare in the Superpower sphere due to longer range radars, long range missiles and radar jammers .these make fighter fight a great distance apart. All this are tactics and strategies.

      During the Iraq wars the Iraqis had good jets will maintained but each time they tried intercepting Allied Fighter, for every one fighter the Iraqis sent to the allied the allied would respond with 3 more fighters other then the one to be intercepted. They could see the iraq airforce take off well before they reach a engagement distances. They would actually contact the Iraqi pilots and tell them “we are six your are only Two would you still wish to engage”. This demoralized the Iraq air force and went out of action until the end of the war. That was the Allied tactics longer range radars to assist there fighters to avoid any eventual dogfight.

      Back to our main topic. In the east Africa and Africa as a whole will lark that sophisticated airborne system that would help those bulky aircrafts achieve there potential. a dogfight is the only way that would settle down the scores . The Ethiopia Su-27 looks similar to the Russians Su-27 but lark the thrust vector system. which is again very complicated and expensive to maintain. A malfunction could send the aircraft to the moon or straight to the ground. Therefore with out the thrust vectors system the Mig-23 and Su-27 are bulk and large fighters unsuitable for air to air combat.. According to intelligence report, Ethiopia has 15 Su-27, Uganda has 5 Mig -23, and Kenya has 25 F-5. Work out the mathematics. assuming that all three countries will have the resource to maintain and keep them airborne worthy)

      • risasai,

        increadible videos. tha data on ethiopia, uganda and kenya airforce jets. i believe we have less than 7 functioning f5 and hawker hunters were originaly 30 ? the HH am not sure how many are air worthy tho but am not sure they can fit in modern battle theatres. i have not seen them for so looong even in air shows. i have never been a fun of any chinese product. so to mention the purchase of their jets makes me shiver…its not worth it. go for quality and time tested products. look at the army truck and the Y12 planes ? jeeeez.

  30. Well, with all this jargon going about a 30-year old piece of junk one is left wondering whether we guys are serious about our safety!Mach 1.7! which serious airforce today dons fighters flying this slow manze?And, this days ‘stealth’ is the in thing bana, if not, then mue na some reliable radar-jamming system which I can comfortably say,hatuna! It then boils to either having radar poa na junk,or fighterz poa bila radar poa coz we aren’t like kina States or Russia who have both and more.Kenya’s option is aquiring better fighters, kitu ka Grippen au F-16 hata ka these were the ones being bought as 2-nd hand.So those guys mooing about the F-5′s good thrust-to-weight ratio and/or better fuel management as tactics,mmtashtuka!!!! You think the nerds responsible for developing this things hawajafikiria hio story?ditchini that mediocrity coz it has no place near a country’s security issues bana!!!!!!!!

  31. l have been following this discussion very closly,l dont know much about the F;s,Migs…name them.Bt being a private pilot(trainee)n hoping to fly for the Kenya aiiforce sometime something is realiy biting me offf…Cn this small country by the name Uganda bring us down!Hey Risasi,impact some knowledge in me.R you working with the airforce?

    • Is that a US Airforce/Navy A-10 Warthog in your college? How did it get here? I didn’t know the US military gave donations outside the US?

      • waona hiyo pic peke yako chronicle? where is the pic of the worlds meanest close air support warplane?

  32. 2 Andy
    nime relux . am waiting for guys to Ji_enjoy then niwapashe.
    Risasi

  33. it was a school trip to the US,they dont belong nor donated to our college.

  34. which warthogs are patrick and chronicle talking about?

  35. Sorry all,

    Patrick left a link to his college website, http://www.skypathaviation.org/.

    On the front page is a picture of what I initially thought was an A-10 Warthog. When I asked him about it (above) he said the picture was taken during a field trip to the US and that the aircraft was not in their school compound.

  36. ya seen the bird its A-6 USN intruder/prowler . its a carrier based jet . folding wings. the frame was used for many missions from jet to jet refueling to radar jamming….

  37. The Motto TUKO IMARA ANGANI still stands
    Never judge a book by its cover
    KAF is still and remains the most prepared Airforce in East and Central Africa despite the few F5
    All you need are good pilots and good tactics.

    • our f-5′s have largely been for entertaining the prezzi at public holidays.
      with the new katiba,am sure you know that we will only have 3 public holidays.your guess is as good as mine,after that,the fighters will continue to gather dust in a bunker somewhere in laikipia

      • Your idiotic opinions are not only offensive and derogatory of our Uniformed Services and the Tax Payers who maintain them, but also more critically they are of no value to anyone including yourself. Typical glib remark on extremely serious issues that trivializes them and insults the intelligence of those who per chance happen to read them. There is a wise saying that one needs to cogitate before putting one’s mouth into any gear – you would be well advised to use this wisdom, mate! Please give us a break, buddy!!

  38. well, this has been the most interesting debate i have read of late. risasi and tom ole nkarei … i strongly believe u are former soldiers (air force and army respectively), therefore i respect what you say. ole nkarei i have read ur blogs on security on other sites, risasi this my firts time to meet you. am abig fan of airforce jets and navy battle ships. never made it to air force nor navy. all those not believing risasi i will encourage you to google “F5″, and see for ur self ! did major mwangi, one time sqd cmnder of f5 retire from KAF ? learnt alot about Kaf during Gichangi and Eshekety period at nanyuki. all the best to KAF guys, we love u !

  39. risasi,

    i remember the incident u described above of ug guys at the border. din’t they call u ppl at one time to go and disarm a misfired anti aircraft missile coz their guys couldnt do it ? tell me something about the indian jet fighter going by the name LCA Tejas LSP-02, can’t we buy it as our next generation multi role fighter ?

  40. To
    Ernest Komu, on April 9th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Am trying to understand your debate but I am not get a full picture. You mean that kenya should buy a stealth fighter? How many country do you think in Nato have stealth technology let alone the third world countries and oil rich states? About march 1.7 that the maximum speed the jet can attain but its not practical in a normal fight.
    1. the fighter will burn off it fuel very fast.
    2. turning at these distance incase in a dogfight the pilot will encounter very high “G” force (more then X10 gravitational pull) that the pilot will definitely black out.
    About Grippen au F-16, the f-5 are bridging gap for a procument of either Chinese Fierce Dragon or Vigorous Dragon.
    About the thrust to weight ratio and fuel this is not commercial based but an aspect of the f-5 that has made it loved by many.

    • Risasai,

      Noticed that the unit cost of one Chengdu J10 (vigorous dragon) jet fighter is $28 million USD i.e (2008 exchange rate) but $41 million USD (export version, with parts and maintenance) well it looks tough but isnt also still under testing ? the JF-17 THUNDER (CHEN FC-1) aka FIERCE DRAGON unit cost is US$15-20 million (estimated) but the J10 is described as a 4th generatin jet while the JF-17 is a 3.5 generation plane. but really how good are these chinese jets ?

      • A late reply but FC-1/F-17 is a 4 Gen and J-10A is 4th Gen as well and J-10B is 4++Gen. Thankyou anything else you want to know my name is Aleem, a PAF Pilot currently on Mirage V.
        aleemtally@gmail.com

  41. To
    Patrick, on April 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Its good to join the airforce make so hours. It thinks in your blog your asking how Ug could harass us.
    But I will tell you something
    1.This is the first time Ug has achieved a full military scale Force. i.e a functioning AF and ARMY at an almost professional standard. They might get trigger happy about it.
    2. This is not the first time our neighbors have claimed our boarders as I know.
    During Mzee time. Amin claimed up to Naivasha at the same time Tz claimed up to likoni Mombasa and Somali claim the north part all at once. Now do you see any similar Political environments within our country at that time and this time?

  42. To
    microprocessor, on April 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm Said:

    LCA Tejas LSP-02 is still an experimental based aircraft. It would not be advisable to buy them at this stage. Let them get airborne and have its on track record. Kenya will always buy products with a reputable track record like the T-72 tanks which the public is not fond of were the Tanks that would have lead an invasion of the Soviets into Europe during the could war. You can imagine the dediction employeed by the soviets at that time.

    Such mistake of buying new products have been made by countries like Zimbabwe AF when it purchased Chinese prototypes Mig 21 after it was placed under embargo from the west and could not operate its Hawk jet. The Mig 21 failed to deliver during Congo war. They secretly asked Kenya to purchase Spares for there Grounded Hawks being similar to KaF ones because.

  43. those who are trying 2 compare SU27, to the F5 are simply day dreaming. the SU27 was meant to compete with the F15. the su27 is superior and is armed with BVR missles (r27) among other missles that r far superior than the sidewinders that the F5 carrys.todays dogfights is more f tecnology than pilots tactics. risasi pole sana wen u argue 4 the F5. THE F5 HAS NO PLACE IN TODAYS AIRSPACE. IT BELONGS TO THE MUSEAM. BRING IT ON, AM READY TO ARGUE WITH FACTS.

  44. PLS LET US NOT FIGHT TODAYS WARS WITH YESTERDAYS WEAPONS.

  45. Since I don,t have enough time on my hands, today I will answers microprocessor. Tomorrow I will be on Airforce one,s case. The name suggest he might have been in the airforce so I expect more solid facts and a sensible agument.from you Mr Airforce one, Brace your self

    . I like to hammer in all the fact and leave no doughts. Sawa?

    In you Blog Mr microprocessor you mentions Kenya has only 7 F-5. Now add the 15 f-5 that we are all debating about procured from Jordan. Plus 3 which need some maintenance. To add on this are 12 Hawk Bae. Which are used as a light attack aircraft.

    About the hawker hunter , they were sold to Zimbabwe. One remains in store as a souvenir

    http://www.ourstory.com/thread.html?t=355326

    initially Kenya had more then the 7 F-5 you talking about i.e 5 F-5e(single sitters) and 2 F-5F(double sitter) .it had 12 F-5E and 3 F-5F most of them were lost in crushes. This was mainly because these were the first supersonic jets they had acquired. And the boys were excited about the speed. That was on the surface. But to declassify more, intelligence reports posed that we were indeed at a war. A nearby country was sponsoring the boys to crush them deliberately so as to reduce them numerical. When this was suspected one of the airforce high chief borrowed a page from the Israelis. During the isreali/arab war isreali pilots were so scared of the Arabs Surface To Air missile that they ejected when they merely so smoke coming from the missile launches. They didn,t wait for the missiles to lock on their aircraft , they just ejected. Therefore a pilot fastening lock system was device to lock the pilots to avoid them to ejecting, Kenya also did that for some time until guys complained about it. Our pilots if you heard back then could not eject from the fighter if anything happened.they were locked to the cockpits You must have heard about that. the system has now been reversed. Mambo ni mengi nduguzaguni.

  46. Mr microprocessor
    Our Chinese Stuff:
    One thing you ought to know is that under the table the Chinese and the west trade a lot. They just fool us in believing that there are enemies. And if they will ever fight they trade will still go on still. lately The Germans have supply submarine engine for the to Chinese Submarine, some thing that you will never hear in the local daily.
    Back to the ball of contention. As I told you Kenya always buys equipment with a solid track record, lets start with equipment that you familiar in.

    1. The Chinese trucks called STEYR.

    http://sinotrucks.net/en/quanqu1.asp?ClassCode=19

    (right corner)
    Bought by the army to replace the Mercedes 911 trucks
    This is a license-built version of the Austria Steyr truck used by N.A.T.O for logistic. Very reliable very strong

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Suisse/vehicules_a_roues/Steyr_heavy_truck/Steyr_heavy_truck_pictures_gallery.htm

  47. 2. The Chinese Harbin Y12.

    is a Chinese military built version of the twin otter

    made by De Havilland Craft, the same company that manufactures the Buffalo. The Y 12 uses Canadian Pratt & Whitney engines

    3. The Chinese Harbin Z-9 Chopper.

    http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/16954

    It is a license-built version of the French Eurocopter Dauphin,

    Anther NATO product

  48. 4. The following proposal:
    a. J-10 Vigorous Dragon

    Was a improved version of an Israeli F-16. the Lavi.

    the Americans simple told the Israelis to halt the program as it would “interfere” with the American/Israeli military aid. The Israeli sold the blue prints to the Chinese and are closely behind its developments.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/31/world/israelis-decide-not-to-construct-lavi-jet-fighter.html

    http://www.wrmea.com/archives/April_2007/0704042.html

    b.the FC-1 Fierce Dragon

    http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/gallery/fc-1_28.htm

    is a joint program between the Chinese and the Pakistanis.
    They reengineered a Pakistani F-16. the F-16 that the Americans sold to Pakistanis could not march the India airforce they were simply toys. Pakistani was under an embargo for testing a nuclear bomb.so they could not upgrade them. together with the Chinese they copied the F-16 and improved all its short comings.

    http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/soc.culture.usa/msg09103.html

    I can guess your next question. And the answer is we simple can’t afford the original versions but we still need standard and proven equipments.
    good day.

  49. i hope Mr Process i have answered ur question on how good are this stuff.

    • Well, i will take that for now. dint know the jordanian planes are already here ? thot the deal is still being worked upon. the army track has already killed many tho, and i thot i read that the y12 has some missing essential facilities and that is why we lost akina dr bonaya godana ? did we already buy the z9 kwani ? a firend of mine lost his cousing to those chineese plane…he has been bitter that they could only bury his ear ! i hope we can afford and maintain those chineese jets ! kns jasiri…fishing boat or real battle ship ? i have seen many of its photos…looks tough tho.

      • Sorry about your friends tragedy. Crashes and accidents are some time inevitable. even the first world nations do suffer from accidents and air crashes. You cannot fly an aircraft with missing essential parts. I wonder which part those are. Y12 has proven itself and 10years since it was procured its still flying. I think it’s a good record, a single fatal crash although none would have been better. Below is a composed article on KNS JASIRI MOMBASA.

  50. ok airforce one tell me why yout think the f-5 can,t take down a Su27

  51. KNS JASIRI MOMBASA:

    http://elrincondelinternauta.blogspot.com/2008/08/jasiri-mombasa-corrupcin-y-mejillones.html

    http://www.pbase.com/acnielsen/kns_jasiri

    The Kns Jasirir is the third Military ship that has be bought from Spain by Kenya, unlike the popular rumor; it has never been fishing or a civilian boat. It belonged to the Agencia Tributaria of spain which is similar to the US Coast guard in charge anti smuggling and drug traffic.

  52. its sister ship in action.0:23, 1:23 seconds in the clip

  53. After it was bought it was taken to a Spanish company which builds commercial ships for hull stretching to 85meter and Refit some basic marine electrical system on the extended area. It will be mounted with various weapons systems from reputable European companies. This is not the first time Kenya has done this. Kns Nyayo/Umoja which was built in Britain by Vosper Thornycroft , has a cocktail of weapons from different reputable European companies other then Britain the country that built it. this includes Its navigations and communications system from the Netherlands Signaal, its Fire systems ;76 mm oto melara super gun (used by almost all NATO frigates) and its Otomat/Teseo Missiles from Italy among many.
    It’s a common practice.

    KNS NYAYO (right) and KNS SHUJAA participating in India’s International Fleet Review Mumbai India .

    http://forum.apan-info.net/Spring_01/photo_pages/01-0447.08_2.html

  54. See the comparisons

    http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=888256

    http://www.pbase.com/acnielsen/image/78367213

    KNS NYAYO/UMOJA

    Nyayo and Umoja are 20 year old Corvette and still have no match in the eastern side of Africa expect from Egypt, South Africa navy of late and
    American and French Djibouti-based ships.

    Am surprised in Europe citizens are campaign for their countries not to go to war but its reverse in Africa Esp. Kenya.

  55. see for yourself the so called fishing boat

  56. Thanks for the info Risasi. Does anybody know the fate of KNS Jasiri? I read somewhere that the authorities are keen on having it delivered to the country save for a few bottlenecks such as cost which have skyrocketed to Ksh6 billion up from the original 4 billon.

  57. well well i have followed this conversation for a while now and i like what risasi has been saying about our inventory in the military – the Kenyan inventory is one of the best in africa – however some guys have complained about us buying alot of chinese military goodies -apart from them being cheaper they are also well tested over time – you should see what mugabe got from them as well as the sudanese – i watched an exclusive video about the chinese military and what they have and upgrading and seriously will as kenyans have a miltary partner to look up to for a very long time.

  58. Thanks chalo for the compliments, I say now that Mr. Kenyatta has given cash to kDOD its all kudos, keep popping up once in a while to be up dated. As for Olekoima the deal on the “fishing boat” is still on .a lots of negotiations are still going on. The problem come when they was a breach of contract between Kenya and euromarine. We all know what happened. Somebody somewhere called it a scandal and funds were halted for its development. To make the matter complicated Sri Lanka became interested in the boat and were willing to cough more. Anyway those are by goners now.

    Hey Major Tom what’s kDOD’s verdict on the new India military trucks? When is there E.T.A? By the way do you know Col. Kisoso. He is from your area I guess.

    What happened to those fellow bloggers who were drum beating for Su’s and Mig’s against the F-5. Has the trail run cold?

  59. Gentlemen, we have a situation, Somali !!!!
    Your take please. i think we should hold our horses first as we go about rebuilding our arsenal on land, air and the sea. these fellows have nothing to loose coz dying as a bomber gurantees them “7 virgin ladies in paradise”. Are we ready/prepared to take on these fellows ? a friend reckons they give ethiopians a rough time, i thot the ethiopians walked away to give AU fellows a chance? my fear is immigration and police have already sold us out to these ppl via eastleigh…right inside the capital city. they can do whatever they want whenever they want. Are we ready really ? retired Lt-Gen Nkaissery quoted last week concerning corruption destroying our preparedness as far as equipment is concerned … so, what to do ?

  60. I hear from a relatively reliable source that Kenya was given \acquired cheaply 32 Chinkooks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cTFqOCJhhA and 8 F-15 fighters from the US..Also in the arsenal is 300km range missiles..Does anyone have this info??…Doesnt this tilt the regional balance of power..Should we expect a arms race in East africa since this effectively neutralises Ethiopia who were the only formidabble force??…Isit true that Kenya has a reserve force of more than 500,000 soldiers??

  61. Chances of Succes in Somali by Kenya Forces are high. The ability and the Know-how is there. To do this it requires a Peace keeping ++ or rather a Peace enforcing mission. Similar to the one sent to Sierra Leone by the ECOMOG and mainly the small
    Guinea Armed force. I know by now your saying the Americans tried and lost but I will explain our advantages as you read more. Most Somalia’s have benefited from Lawlessness in there country in one way or other and returning them to a normal and peace life isn’t a small task. It’s denying many a way of life. It will not be ready accepted.

  62. To achieve this, a Trophy prize exist in the name of Mogadishu. He who controls the capital calls the shots. More or less. That fair, I hope it will remain that way. I feel this will elude us from any Guerilla like warfare or insurgences. Which sends many military confrontation in circles.

    To achieve this two things need to be considered.

    1. The occupant
    2. The Host

  63. The Occupation force.

    To maintain peace or achieve peace for Somalia, a good Armor and Air Calvary battalions are needed. At the moment, Kenyans Armor Battalions are at there best. The Air Calvary is there. A well shielded ground force with an effective air support from a Calvary battalion is the key word. Therefore in paper it can be done spectaclly. But the mentioned equipments need to be compensated for. These are weapons meant to defended the Kenyan Sovereignty bought by the Kenyan tax pays. Therefore the big question is not how it will be done but who will finance operation. There several choices. The Kenya tax payers, the Somalia republic, the United Nation , AU or well wishers.

    If the United Nation is involved then a second army mainly a western nation will have to be there. The U.N will never trust an African country with an open United nation Check. On the other hand the Somalis have a negative perception of the west and this will taint our image. I will explain this latter. As for the AU and the Somalia government they don’t have the supporting cash for the Operation. Let’s hope this will changes. The Well wishers are good financer but there funds can stop prematurely with change of government policies.

  64. The Host.
    The host nation holds the silver bullet. There perceptions towards the foreign army? This is where Kenya has a big Plus over many. unlike the Ethiopian which fought the Ogaden war against Somalia, Kenya has never had direct military confrontation with Somali and Our armed force which are drawn from different corners of the nation have Somali speaking soldier. This includes high ranks offices present and past among them are former Army commander like Lt. Gen Aden who can speaks Somali. In general Somalia public is likely to see us as a brother rather then a foe. An Arbitration force rather then an occupying one. And this is the perceptions that Ethiopians, the West and US can not make up for.

    The Somalia’s in general see them as invaders. The ability to winning the hearts and mind of the people will give us a leading edge over many militaries and equipments . But if we mix our military with other force for any reasons what’s so ever it’s very likely that our impression can end up tainted.

    Let’s wait and see what C.G.S and the defense staff has to say. If the boys will have to go in yes some boys will never come back and some will come back differently. but Inzi kufa juu ya kidonda ni kawaida. That’s there Job.

  65. Abc The clip seen is an Exercise EDGE MALLET. The helicopter used are not Chinooks but US Navy phrogs ch-46. 32 Chinooks that’s quiet a handful for Kenya. This are twin rotor chopper which require a high quality of maintance. If they were to come they would be In batches.

    For the F-15 strike eagles I highly dought. The USAF maintains a high confidential Proliferation of it is second best striker after the F-22 .its only been issued to 3 of its allied. Israel which is obviously, Saudi as a “thank you note” for there Oil, Japan there biggest and best ally in the far-east. Countries like South Korea, Australia, have all been excluded. its unlikely Kenya is joining The quartets.

    The 300km missile, there was a proposal of an India one but it was latter shelved. The only missile that can come close to that range is in the navy but it’s a ship to ship missile with a large warhead. Its latest version has a GPS capability which means it can hit a stationary 50meterX 50 meter target at sea or land within its range.
    The arm race is an open secret. Etopians acquired hardware from N.korea , Uganda got some from s.africa and Libya we are still waiting for a Tz contribution.

    0.5 million reservist I don’t know where that presenter got that figure. +50 thousand close enough if the G.S.U, A.P ,N.Y.S and resigned staff was to be included.

    • Abc,

      Like Risasi, i also doubt that we can be given the F-15 srike eagle. Very few countries have this plane. The F-16 is more likely to get. May be Kenya should try buying the Jas-39 Gripen from Sweden or the JF-17 Thunder from China although i believe the upgraded F-5 Tiger still serves us well enough. I think the country should consider a few more helicopter gunships. It appears they are phasing out the current MD500 defenders perhaps due to age. I notice from Wikipedia that Kenya has acquired an unknown number of self propelled 152mm Nora B-2s from Serbia and 4 Z-9 helicopters from China.

  66. Thanks for echoing my words Olekoima. Like I said the Armor Battalions are now at there very best since our independence. The country’s military Arms are being balanced out. Our deficiencies in APC/IVF and ground to air defense systems, are now being compensated for. Not mentioning that, the existing ones are being improved. For a country whose G.D.P comprises of selling roasted coffee beans, tea leaves and tourism its Kudo,s.

    If you look at African countries (militarily). of those which we can consider to be in a “same league”, we are ok. Look at the militaries Inventories of Cameroon, Nigeria, Ghana, S.Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Chad , e.t.c. visa vie ours, our quality and reputations and equipments are well above the 80% mark in most faculties.

    They could be having equipments which we don’t but our military is generally balanced.
    For Sub Saharan African we have a top number. That is fair enough.

  67. I wonder given the level of corruption in Kenya if they are not buying all these F-5 spare parts as a front for Iran? They have yet to get the planes from Jordan and they might at best have 2 F-5 planes flying. Maybe a replay of the Ukraine T-72 tanks seized by Somali pirates destined for Southern Sudan.

    • Hmmmm … interesting dimension. Its been over a year since the Jordanian deal was exposed. Have the jets arrived?

  68. The F5 is a reasonable good plane for any poor country to stock. Iran has reverse engineered this plane and is now making its own Jet Fighters perhaps we should do the same and create a plane industry like sudan.

    http://johnkaranja.com/2008/12/22/kenyas-armed-forces-pictures-and-facts/

  69. Khalid, Rockwell Collins, a major US defence company reported in its 2nd Quater 2008 (24/04/08)earnings business highlights “Rockwell Collins was selected by Jordan Aeronautical Systems Company (JAC) for the upgrade of F-5 fighter aircraft. Rockwell Collins Government Systems will provide a Rockwell Collins Business and Regional avionics system to JAC for the upgrade of 15 F-5 fighter aircraft which are to be resold to the Kenyan Air Force. The contract also provides for the initial installation and additional modification support for an estimated 14 months.

    http://www.encompass.info/news/page10599.html

    14 months arent over yet, so the aircraft havent arrived yet, so do start getting suspicious.

    Of more interest, most developing countries take the route of developing home based military maintanance industries as a stepping stone to having their own fully fledged military industries. Is there any effort in the Kenyan military to start the same, to maximize on our “professionalism”such as upgrade of systems (under licence, for example). Jordan, Ethiopia,Sudan,Egypt etc are all doing this, as a way of gaining the skills & technology transfer, & eventually these technolgies spill over into civilian industries, (aircraft, tractor,truck manufacture etc). Can anyone shed some light? I know the kenyaairforce website talks of repairs to civillian aircraft (buffalos).Anything else,anyone? Can’t we manufacture simple drones, for example, to help patrols in the expansive north eastern region & somalia?

  70. Guys,as much as we tout our military to be the best in the region in terms of training, equipment, readiness etc, here is our major achilles heel. Our neighbours have made serious effort to develop industries to support their militaries. They dont have to rely on outside suppliers for the very basic & frequently used items.Please see the links below to see what i mean.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Industry_Corporation_(Sudan)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Industry_Sector_(Ethiopia)

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/industry.htm

    Eventually, these neigbours are able to develop a wide range of defence equipment, be it pistols, machineguns, uniforms, trucks,APC,etc. Unexploited potential in these industries eventually spills over into production of civilian products, eg medicines, vehicle parts, aircraft parts,hospital beds, office furniture, household items, plastic products, kitchenware, construction etc. All these contributes to technology trasfers, innovation, & ultimately,overall national development. My question to our experts on this forum is, where do we stand in terms of the above referenced area. Arent we grossly lacking in our strategic thinking? Take the case of our indian ocean coast, & the the somali coast + the risks it poses. Shouldnt we have delevoped an nascent industy to say build basic coast guard boats to help patrol these areas, reduce smuggling (revenue loss to govt,),illegal tralling etc. I read somewhere that we are the only major navy in africa & beyond that is no functional coast guard to do the more intense close-to-shore patrols..yet that is where the somali instability risk affects us most..We have to depend on the US to donate simple 11 metre patrol boats. What do you say guys?

  71. Let me start by saying congratulations to the Sudanese so that guys dont think l am tryng to hate on there homebuilt aircraft.Am yet to get the specifications of these aircraft but from its price tag USD 15000 am pretty sure that it is a Light Sport Aircraft.Now how do you guard a country with a ultralight?which have a small range capability,less that a Cessna 172hp,payload of less than l don know 600lbs and on a straight road l can beat it with my Toyota AE91 1992model?l hope nobody will start telling me that when the Wright brothers came up with there first aircraft a joker told them that his horse is faster and could endure a longer distance than there toy.”Sudanese president was just tryng to make a point to those guys who are tryng to arrest him.Which am sure they did not give a damn”Kenya can come up with a better flying machine than this and by far.Main problem we have;l think the government is not allocating alot of cash towards engineering related activities.Those guys working in the airforce can you shed some light on these?Lets give our airforce sometime;dem aircraft gonna get here.LONG LIVE OUR AIRFORCE.
    Aeromodeller,,,,,

    • i have shaded some light on home based production industries below. the Sudan’s Safat-01 aircraft which runs on car fuel is suppose to be a trainer. i think its similar to the project jua kali artisan building once a upon time. these Sudanese are mocking the aviation profession. am waiting to see what the have in store for Aircraft Conversion Course.

  72. this blog dosn,t fail to amuse me as time goes by . the Blog seems to go cold for weeks and when you least expect, new suggestions and members prompts up from directions you can never imagine. its like tuko kichaka then all over sudden you get an ambush by a foe you thought you had subdued.
    What makes it exiting is comments of topics that you couldn’t imagine a common mwanainchi could be conversant with or be aware of plus postings from renegades members of our armed forces.
    i will post something interesting in a few days. i would like to welcome Izzo, Khalid and patrice to the blog. karibuni. those where concrete contributions you posted.

  73. Thanks, Risasi. I look forward to your post. + the other informed participants. I am already missing your contribution.Where are you guys microprocessor,olekoima,abc,tom nkarei et al, please come alive with your thoughts.
    Trying to understand why we lack a military support industry, ive come accross the below interesting sites.

    http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_180.shtml

    http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_179.shtml

    The long & short of it, if you are faced in a vicious conflict situation, you ultimately have very high attrition rates on your military hardware.Your aircraft get shot at,tanks,APCs,guns etc get damaged,destroyed,worn out, & these require replacement.Yet you’ve got financial difficulties, hesitant foreign suppliers – you owe then lots of money anyway,& they wont supply in time/or at all.What to do?You are forced to improvise. You construct redumentary workshops to repair your damaged hardware, you cannibalize grounded aircraft to keep the airworthy one in the sky, you start making basic spareparts. Over time, you gain expertise & eventually some sophistication. You reverse engineer some parts, & if your major suppliers agree, you manafacture under licence. That is the experience of Jordan,Egypt, Sudan, SA, Ethiopia, Israel, Iran, Pakistan etc. It is a difficult & painful experience, but it pays its dividends.It sustains the war effort.If peace ever comes, your maintaince factories idle,instead of laying off workers, you start making tractors,shoes, school uniforms, hospital equipment instead of military trucks, tanks, APCs, army unforms, ammunation. The civilian goods industry develops & the previosly thriving military support industry. & that contributes to overall national development. That is the experience Kenya hasnt had.

  74. Abit more; so, in regard to Kenya’s standing in the event of conflict with say our 2 northern neigbours (Sdan,Ethiopia), however professional we might be, Kenya cannot sustain conflict for a long time. They have military support industries. We dont.We have to depend on our external suppliers.The supplier countries, esp the west, will put conditinalities(force you to negotiate,etc), instead of availing parts for our F5s, buffalos, tanks,etc. We might run out of ammo without external supplies. Our adversaries on the other hand have home based industries to sustain their war effort, & would not be dependant on external suppliers as much as we do. So, in the event of western pressure to negotiate, the impact would be more on us more than them. Yet, it would take a long time for us to overcome our handicap – dependance on external suppliers for the very basic items. & the west would leverage on our weakness & hunger for spares to push us around. My conclusion, let us not underestimate our potential adverseries. Lets be objective & see what their strenghs are. For us to gain the level of sophistication that i refered to in my earlier post about military support industries, it would perhaps take us a decade or two.
    What is your take on my view, my dear armchair generals?

    • Izzo,

      Thanks for your comments. You probably haven’t heard of the Eldoret ordinance factory that is owned by the armed forces. In addition Kenya also produces apparels for the armed forces some of which is exported to other countries. I don’t think we run the risk of running out of ammo in case of war with the neighbours.

  75. kenya does have a munitions factory of NATO standards Izzo which can cope with any eventualities or a sudden flux of ammo. i will post my comments on the order of battle between the to mentioned countries

  76. Mr Izzo I admire your idea towards a home based military industry but its advantages are much limited in developing countries more then you would imagine. The concern of relaying indigenous principle equipments is overshadowed by procurements of foreign spare parts what so ever the situation is. Due to lark of proper research and funds these industries have there limitations in Africa. The cons of these complexes are all surmounted on Reliability engineering. And this will all be felt on the equipment your military poses with. Reliability engineering involves a matrix of events and topic which you have to take in to consideration;

    1. Mean time between failures (MTBF). This is the operational time of a equipment.
    2. Mean time to recover (MTTR). time taken to bring back an equipment to operation status after it has failed or taken for due service. This is again affected by expertise service and availability of spares.
    Among others subjects.

  77. Research is very expensive; it involves dedicating time and resources to achieve a result in the Far Future. For a country to develop a home based military industry large enough to manufacture a complete military entity, spare cash has to be devoted to research and an outlet in form of international exports to sustain the plant and its technology. The more your product is being used out their under different condition the more your will realize its shot comings and perfect it .The match a home based military industry can do in a Developing country as of an African status is to support countries MTTR. This again will depend on the quality of spares parts (due to lark of research and resources), which will again affect the overall MTBF values of the forces. When these industries are set most countries tend to be addicted to them. This is due to internal economical reason and vanity sakes. They then create a false military illusion in the country out weighing the real capabilities of the plants and armed forces. Therefore set them up but know its borders. Creating your own large Principle Ordinance and equipment shouldn’t be in its list of to do items, if you are dwelling in a developing country.

  78. In Kenya a complex does exist it produces ammunition an parts for some military hardware. It has a capacity of about 20- 30 million bullets per year. Built by FN Herstal Company which adheres to NATO standards.

    http://www.kofc.co.ke/

    http://www.mod.go.ke/kafc.htm

    It’s not as large as the Sudan, Egypt South Africa or India capacity, but its up and running and maintains a standard. We bite what we can chew and we eat what we can swallow. We manufacture what we need and export munitions and military uniforms to the great lakes region. A good example is SPLA/M. most of its officers wear DPM apparels similar to the Kenya army. The complex came under the amnesty international sports light at the time of great lakes region conflicts if you can remember.
    Local unarmed naval boats are produced to Mombassa with the help of African marine Cooperation. These are mainly used for ferrying duties across the kilidini channel.

    Producing armed equipment is not as easy as you would imagine. From what we have seen and leant from these industries in this part of the globe it’s a waste of time venture into this fields fully throttle.But if your still not convinced, I am willing to post to you the quality and Reliability of local based principle munitions industry from south Africa to Egypt. in this part of the global its not a wise route. I believe at the end of that posting you will level with me that it is indeed not a wise idea.

    • hi everyone,

      am very much a live and always make it a point to read this blog. its been, and still is, very interesting discussing my motherlands security with like minded ppl. this blog has been running for very loooong. i have followed keenly from the time i last said anything (somali issue), through all the above posts, while following events going in my motherland right now e.g should recruited soldiers be tall or short ? napoleon was short ! should we domilitary factories or not, risasai says no ! am also reminded by a soldier buddy thats its only western and nyanza provinces that he has never served in, yaani no military (army, navy or air force) bases yet UG na M7 with his ambitions are right there. did you also notice that two ministers (even top military guy) have been turned back -on their way to OUR northern borders- by sudan soldiers RIGHT INSIDE OUR BORDERS ? anyway, izzo i like your line of thot ….YES WE CAN, Risasi how will you know if you do not try ? thats why we train all the time to keep fit and to identify our weak areas so that we can improve on them, huh ? well, am listening.

    • A defense industry component of a Armed Forces Strategy only make sense when in efffect one is faced with imminent aggression at any level about that we face, or an active export policy such as the Israeli, Swedes and Chinese and others have. Because these are justified by productivity and consumption of the products that are churned out. A peace-time Fighting force that trains to develop Excellence of strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control -such as Kenya, cannot justify the massive capital needed by theses sort of industries. However, this excellence of Strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control also develops a deep ability to technical understanding of equipment and weaponry. Indeed part of our General Plannning involves detailed training and exposure to the manufacture of basic equipment used by our Forces, from a diverse sourcing. Kenya has therefore a well-developed pool of knowledge that would quickly be brought to bear in the event of an imminent armed conflict in terms of a rapid program of armament manufacture. Coupled with this is very concrete and vital agreements with several Western Countries specifically in contigent of this eventuality. In the “D” Coy of the Paratroopers, as Risasi and others will attest, every man has the training and capacity to personalise his weapons, by making sophisticated alterations and improvements that suits him!!
      Certainly, preparedness is the key to victory for any fighting force, and we in the Armed Forces of Kenya, within the limitations we face, are definitely cognisant of this indeed. Of that, I assure the doubting johns..

  79. microprocessor
    i am trying to figure out your ball of contention but am not getting your debate or contribution.
    the sudan issue , i never heard of it. May be they were local bandit. cause south sudan is under SPLA/M. they are on our side if a conflict arises. About the recruits, the new askaris have to meet some standard. Not so?

    • Risasi,

      i was not really making a contribution as such. just letting izzo and others know bado tuko. was also trying to catch up with everybody esle on the previous posts. while declaring my stand on the same issue !!!! sio lazima tuwe at opposite ends all the time, ausio? have missed in action for long enough.

      heigt issue, i do not believe it should be used to curtail ppls ambition to join forces. after all modern warfare is going towards not necessarily large number of infantry men but rather “remote” combat, yaani fighting an enemy you do not necessarily meet face to face. its time to go for intelligence rather than height. standards are ok but lets avoid “descriminatory” types like alama kwa mwili. joining forces should be appreciated as patriotism such that iwe like israel not the way we do it in africa ati job opportunity thus deny other tribes those opportunities !!!
      sudan was all over the newspapers, they were not rebels, they stopped otieno kajwang and saitoti and even some top military guy …. all these ppl are among our top security men (civilian or otherwise), SPLM is on our side yes, buy why did that happen ?

  80. sawa microprocessor i understand you now . you have been missing in action for some time now. hope all is ok. in our country we are blessed with a lot of human resource. we can get tall people who are intelligent to perform a modern warfare. Once we get to a position where the supply of human resource is getting diminishing then am sure the military will reconsider, just like the role of women was before in the forces and the issue of Home based munitions. alama kwa mwili was brought by mkoloni .it can be used as a issue for extra compensation when one retires from the service. about the SPLA/M it will take some time as the seeds of there military come from rebels and militias. with time things will be better.
    Don’t worry twafahamishana.
    all my comment are posted at the lowest tones that you can imagine.

    • Risasi,

      am still NOT supporting your short v/s tall arguement ! even short ppl have very good brains by the way. yes, they cant do certain “height” oriented jobs but they can be very handy too, wana brains please. i can count hundreds of short ppl who are amazing in what they are doing which require purely brains not height.
      as for women, am not sure they can pure brutal combat maybe wakae ofisini, garage ama supplies not the heat of the theatre ! my cousin joined 3 years ago and i laughed when she told me how she survived the combat training …. she was almost always never firing her gun, avoided handling the gustav, no combat is not for women. am aware tho that some countries are now allowing them to fly combat missions as jet fighter pilots, the best of them is now a Lt. Col in USAF, wako pia australia, israel, china, brito, etc am sure our girl does not do combat maybe supplies. tho am impressed by the lady major who heads the puma helicopter maintainance unit.

  81. We have been so keen on discussing about manned air vehicles,what about unmanned air vehicles like the Raven and the Predators?
    l think they come with more adv….no casualties during wars…good spys..and the best part of it is that we can zero in shoot down M7ni from a backyard in Nairobi.”lt will be like playing Play Station2″What do you say Risasi/Microprocessor.Do we have some?

    • pato,

      am not sure we have any. am a big fun of forces and their technology but not one of them. i once saw some american guys (via the net) showing kenyan soldiers how to use a wireless controlled helicopter during the eagle mallet exercise in mariakani. maybe risasi atwambie hapo ! am sure we haev the brains to maintain them and pilot them around.

      • what Pato is saying is good suggestion. But why should we use a hammer to crack an egg. the boys can done the job bila predator i don’t see any treat or situation that warranty such an equipment yet. but all said its a good tool to be with.

      • risasi, once in mombasa airport i saw an aicraft with the outline of a IAI Eitan(though not that large) taxiing at the FOB area. I was sure that was a drone and if my suspicions are correct, what is the Air Force doing with a drone? or was it an USAF asset that was refuelling?

      • When did you see the IAI EITAN? It belongs to the Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI). Its an Israeli drone. The Eitan/Heron was just launched 2 weeks ago in Israel. When did you see it in Kenya? I can’t dispute because I have not heard any thing about it in Kenya. All I know is that a Israeli drone was use in shooting up a Gaza-bound Iranian arms convoy traveling through Sudan. I don’t know.

      • “i saw an aicraft with the outline of a IAI Eitan(though not that large)” Notice the details in the words, like but not an israeli eitan. Maybe it was a heron, remember the Heron has been in service longer then the Eitan(only recently PUBLICLY commissioned) it was painted white with a varnish brown band around its fuselage. Now tell me thats an ordinary lightweight and i’ll call you a liar.

  82. Thanks, everyone for keeping the debate alive. Risasi, those are very insightful comments. Just came across something that may be of members interest.

    http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw090707_1_n.shtml

    Looks like those tanks might not have been ours,afterall. I recall Risasi saying that deficiencies in some areas are being balanced out (09/12/09 post).
    Will these satelites, you cant keep a secret for too long.

  83. Supposing the tanks were heading to S.Sudan, would there be a way to fool the satelite imagery?Maybe dismantle & pack the tanks into containers?I would hope our guys in charge are smart enough to go round this potentially embarasing situation.

    • Izzo,
      fooling a satelitte (the “eye”) is not easy. do you use google earth free edition ? try using it and try to imagine how you can fool it…what it sees is what you get. even if you pack dismantled parts (33 tanks) you will need trailers kadhaa to move them. thus the “eye” will still see the large number of tracks originating from kahawa barracks moving in a consistent direction in a convoy. during the 2nd world war a general used a simple video player to monitor enemy movement by having traffic cameras all over the roads by fast forwading he was able to notice that certain vehicles were stopping a certain point in large number than moving back to a certain starting point. he concluded that troops and weapons were being stock pile ready for an attack, he simply raided the new destination giving the enemy a fatal blow. all i can, now, conclude, based on this, is that kenya did not do this thing alone – it had the blessings of some big “god fathers” who gave the go ahead to arm southern sudan remember soon they will have a referandum to decide whether to split the country into two.remember also that oil is in the south not north, also food comes from the agricultural south not north, that china wants that oil, north is considered a terrorist, and north is also now building its air force rapidly etc in short these fellows seemingly, north and south, are preparing for war before/after that refferandum. could it be the reason why some of our very snr guys were turned away from our borders up there and no one complained ?

  84. RIsasi,

    have you noticed how suddenly, after the mt elgon operations, the 20th para battalion is all over the news in the internet ? they were even discussed in the bunge ya britain which then said ati they have now stopped training them due to what they did there. D company of the battalion seems to be taking a lot of the flak yet it is is described as the special ops guys i.e the ultimate soldiers/commandoes like the CDU in mombasa for the navy. tho nothing much is known about the same d company. wasemaje ?
    BTW, are “green eagles” from the 20th para ? could the so called D company be the green eagles ? those guys are damn good !

    • D coy is a part of “WE THE PARA” battalion. Meant to be dropped behind enemy lines to cause havoc and vector in artillery or fighters. Disrupt supplies or even shoot down surface to surface missile with anti aircraft missile as SSM are being lunched. They can do the job sawa. the CLEARENCE DIVING UNIT.CDU is from the navy is suppose to be like he Special Boat Service of the uk or the SEAL of the usn. They have trained with them. They should blow up enemy ship while in harbor during wartime. And during peace time get engine signatures of potential enemy ships. yaani when a ship is sailing the engine and generators are running it produces a distinctive sound a sound signature, for instants you can here a car sound and know that’s a Peugeot or Toyota with looking at it. That’s but part of there job. This is why when our ships a leaving kilidini time to time they will run with generators or one engine on off mode. Trying to mask there sound signatures.

      • Hey, guys, I have served with the “D” of 20 Coy, and Risasi is spot on about this and the CDU. Those chaps are damn good, I tell you, and train with the best. We have done covert insertions all over this East Africa, and done some realy crazzzy things too. Mostly disruptions of comms, some complicated disinformation, plenty of ‘take-outs’ of some chaps in certain command structures. A lot of the stuff you read in blogs about our Armed Forces really gets us a good laugh, seing how effective the disinformation has worked – recall the writting about satelite pictures of tanks tracking to the Sudan? Come on, guys, just how stupid can one educated chap be??

  85. Risasi,

    chineese, japanese and korean soldiers are very short, and they are damn good. you do not want to mess with them. look at the technlogies coming from these countries, i was suprised to see s GPMG coming from korea called DAEWOO lakini sio gari !

    its about intelligence not height ! ha ha ha ha.

  86. Arming the Salva Kiir with reputable Tanks like the T-72 will be leading the SPLA/M in a direct confrontation with the Sudan government. A confrontation between the Sudanese home built Type 96 tank vs the T-72. This would also grossly change the balance of Amour power in the neighboring states. Sudan, Ethiopia, Uganda and even Kenya. None of the mention country has a tank that can match the T-72 in paper. In that case Sudan President Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir would have been the fist whistle blower to alert the West of a breech of arms embargo in his backyard. Even musevini wouldn’t allow SPLA/M to have such a tank at a Figure of +100 next to Kony.

    Have a look at the below clips and get a feel of the quality of the SPLM/A in comparing to the type of equipments your talking about. This group doesn’t have basic military hardware supporting staff and ethics for such equipments.

    if truly this tanks are meant for SPLA/M then will see them in action, cause they will surely use and parade them.

    let as be careful with what western media say. Most of the times there usually use “white lies” to help them sell news. Like one instant, we normal conduct our national elections in December and this is roughly the same time the military conducts it Jamuhuri day parade. Tanks will be moved from nakuru/isolo to be paraded in Nairobi. Dou you no what Deutsche Welle reports “Mr Moi is surrounding the capital city with Military Hard wares await the election result”.

    wa Swahili wa sema “kisicho fanana na mwenyewe huwa ni chakuiba”
    wewe ni machokora na umevaa chain ya gold shigoni . tangulini?

  87. http://us.mc595.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=1&.tm=1249395048&.rand=0hemq8erhr14e#_pg=showMessage&sMid=5&&filterBy=&midIndex=5&mid=1_2187342_AJMMDUwAASXQSngXOwmu4V02tGE&m=1_2190528_AM8MDUwAADlhSnhA7Aw4ai24jZg,1_2189894_AKUMDUwAAV1ESng8fARKKjApiaI,1_2189260_AKsMDUwAAI41Sng2uAvHR2HeOZA,1_2188626_ALEMDUwAALsaSngsegMz5i66gJQ,1_2188001_AJkMDUwAABTsSngmkQt5qWDx%2FGQ,1_2187342_AJMMDUwAASXQSngXOwmu4V02tGE,1_2186705_AMkMDUwAAYC2SngOPwGu72c0egs,1_2186090_AJMMDUwAALXhSngLMAswiXOgWFg,1_2185442_AI0MDUwAAJwUSnfrLwEqikvYDZI,1_2184507_AL0MDUwAAT4KSne5rAf2OX7rq%2Bo,1_2183875_ALcMDUwAAOlYSneq4wWFfDIxndI,&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&pSize=25&hash=1fd2b726df1d3171e0a38e428735a5c1&.jsrand=1896053

    Check out this link.Was too long l hope l got it right

    • @Patrick
      Thanks for sharing with us, however, we couldn’t see anything as the link you’ve posted is a Yahoo mail link. Please tell us what you found through the link, or you could give provide an alternative.

  88. I wonder whether what i’ am seeing posted in Wikipedia is correct. In addition to the 15 F-5 jets from Jordan, there is an additional 16 F-16s and 15 F-18s from the US. Could this be correct? Anyone with information please? There also appears to be some 85 Abram tanks ( M1A1 ) although the wording is not very clear. I don’t know but this looks doubtful.

  89. Should the above be correct, Kenya will then become the undisputed military power in East and Central Africa. No country in Africa other than Egypt possesses an Abram tank. Besides no other country apart from Morocco and Egypt in Africa has F-16 fighter jets let alone the F-18 hornets.

    • Olekoima

      i saw the same posts some time back and thot it was a mistake, or a joker did that work. you see even wewe unaeza ku update the wikipedia.

      yaani it is possible to create and account that allows you to log in and update the wiki so long as you know the syntax (rules that govern the way a wiki is updated) for updating the wiki. look at the m1a1 thing, somebody wanted to add data then abandoned/stopped the process or simply did not know what to do when he logged in. it is always assumed that we all are faithfull and honest enough not to lie when updating any wiki on the internet.
      i personally do not thibk we have any of those birds nor that kifaru. infact the person who updated the wiki (line ya kwanza) did not even do it cleanly coz it is so full of errors !

    • hi

      all said and done,after hosting el bashir with taxpayers dollars.cousin barry is pissed and that changes the whole equation

  90. Micrprocessor,

    The South Sudan guys have finally apologized to the Kenyan goverment for the incident that befell hon. Kajwang when he toured the border last week. This is fine, but i think those fellows need to be taught not to mess up with Kenyan officials again. They may be our pals but they need to respect our borders. Kenya should not be acting soft all the time, otherwise what use is our military if it cannot protect our territorial intergrity?

  91. find the unit cost of an Abram tank,F-16 and F-18 . then multiply it with the above figgers. then you will realise the credibilty of this information.

    • Risasi,

      have you ever heard of Pugachev’s Cobra ? its a manouver done by jet fighter pilots. jeeez, it is one hell of a move !

      just read about it today and really, enough respect to pilot Viktor Georgiyevich Pugachyov who was the pioneer of the move. am trying to understand how physics applied to all this and how the engine actually manages to help the pilot pull such a crazy move at such speeds …. its like suicide bwana.

      soma kidogo about it and help me understand this wild, crazy, suicidal move by jet fighter pilots !

      • i know about the maneuver. I talked briefly about it when I was answering Andy on April 9th, 2009 at 8:52 am and previously on February 15th, 2009 at 11:37 pm in regarding to the F-5 vs Su27. just pass through it and see the pasted clip links ,before reading below.

        Its know as the “S” cobra and the Bell, in aviation sphere. So far it can only be done by the Mig35 (modernized Mig29) and the Su30 (modernized Su27). and I think the F-22 raptor having similar aerodynamic configuration like the mention aircrafts, but I have never seen any clip. the move was discovered accidentally.

        the Russian realized due to its bulkiness the Su27 it can never out maneuver a middle size fighters like the F-16 in a dog fight. The Su27 speed and climb rate was ok. It could only do that either climb or run in a dog fight. But along the horizontal it took a large turning radius to make a 360 deg turn. Middle size fighter would easily use that weakness to get behind its tail. They had to do something to help it turn . they developed thrust vectors system. Using deflection of the engines nozzles to turn the aircraft. With this the aircraft could turn at more tight angles on its horizontal. During part of the modification of the Su27, it also lost its longitudinal stability. So they add an extra pair if wings called Candid near the cockpit to keep the nose up.

        When the thrust vectors were turned to an up position the aircraft nose will be forced upwards naturally. Simultaneously when the candid and the thrust vectors are turned to both lift the nose up, then the aircraft will quickly turn to 90 deg Facing up with out losing power very quickly. If do so like wise with gravity in mind and position the thust vector to counter the downwards pull of grafity (when the nose is facing upwards) and also be at angle to push the aircraft fowards ( vectors at 45 deg) while nose up, the aircraft will move forward on its belly while its nose is pointed upwards. That’s cobra move.

        The Colonel went further and challenger any pilot to a dog fight during a Paris aircraft exhibition. Nobody come forward. The Mig35 and Su30 are the deadliest one on one dog fighter one can have.

      • Very interesting maneouvre! It must be scary watching it in real life, as a spectator, I would fear for the pilot’s life.

        For those wondering what the Cobra maneouvre is, read about it on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev%27s_Cobra

        You can also view a short video clip of a US F-22 performing the Pugachev’s Cobra: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJO0KzTgcMI

  92. Risasi, any progress on the order of battle that you had mentioned with our 2 northern neighbours?

  93. By letting the south Sudan be autonomous, a buffer region was created between Kenya and Sudan. South Sudan will always be on our side. For the north to lunch a invasion it has to fight its way via the SPLA territory before get to the border. The same principle was used by the USSR on NATO. Buffer states were created between the to powers. NATO would have to go through Romania ,Czechoslovakia bulgaria etc in order to reach the USSR. Most of its energy would have been drained by that time. But for the USSR to reach NATO the above buffer states would be a lunching pad. the same principle is applied to Kenya and Sudan.

    The Ethiopians mainly use trench warfare and attack in numbers . to deal with such always keep them at arms length and soften then with long range artillery. the BM-21 will do such a Blitz. When they come in there masses Gunship are meant to reduce them.

    The Ethiopians always know the Oromo will be backed by the Kenya military in any eventuality. a partisan war. the Oromos are the majority in Ethiopia, but have be oppressed by the minority tribes.

  94. Good thinking,nice strategy.Thanks, Risasi.

  95. We are all now in the same page as we started in this blog. the Su27 is good for a dogfight with fellow hefty aircraft like the F15 or F14. The Ethiopians have the basic version; the Su27SK until they upgrade them to Su27SM, an upgrade F-5 can still challenge it. it will all depend on the pilot and his familiarity with his aircraft. The F-5 under good pilots has brought down more superior fighters like the Mig25(which is more superior then a F-15) let alone Su27 (Ethiopian), Mig23(uganda)and Mig21(bought ug/ Ethiopia) that our neighbors have. The Sudanese were on the part of upgrading there Mig29 into Mig29SMT which would have had thrust vector.
    their upgrading has yet come into effect

    microprocessor you asked on your blog posted on August 1st, 2009 at 9:01 pm “how will we Know if we don’t try ?” with regards to home based munition factories . I will get back to you.

    • Back to the Local based mutation docoument
      1. MIC of Sudan and South African, Local mutation factory set to circumnavigate UN arms embargo
      2.India and Egyptian industry a germ of invention and necessity.

      The SUDAN MIC is A DO IT YOURSELF home kit set up by the Chinese to circumnavigate UN arms embargo. As much as much as they claim it to be manufacturing plant it is just a assemble plant for Chinese version tanks and APC. It’s a CKD module plant and not a full scale production plant. It moulds APC and Tank shells and import heavy duty engines to push the weight of the new conceived Tank or APC. On picture the equipment would look good but underlying it is a weakness. The type of amour structure worn by MIC Tanks and APC are weak and substandard for a modern warfare. This is because armor compositions is held as a state secret by all tank producing countries.
      India
      the Kanchan armour

      http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor

      United Kingdom
      Chobham armor

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour

      • The ingredients used in the production would not be shared as this would jeopardize a entire armor fleet over mare friendship reason. Whenever you look at a military tank specification , for instant the T-72 from wikipedia take note of the Armor composition. Sudan doesn’t have the technology to manufacture such armor and will surly construct its equipments in steel plate armor. Cheap easy and best. Steel plate armor is now becoming absolute due to the advance in anti armor munitions and a pierce with a shaped charge will lead to massive structural damages. Therefore although most of there tanks would be running during peace time but when it called for the actual core business of the army, they would suffer from low MTBF values.

        Developing countries within the business of manufacturing principle equipments for its own use will definitely have a low MTBF values. As for Sudan a false illusion has been created like what happed to Saddam Hussein and his SCUD derivative. But again what can they do here under an embargo. The sudan industries are nowhere near South African stardards I think we all agree on that. Now lets look at how South Africa is faring.

      • South Africa too has suffered grossly from relaying on principle munitions from home based industry. All South Africa Olifant (elephant) Main Battle tanks (MBT) are locally produced. there the spear heads of a tank invasion in an eventually. Similar to our Vickers MBT or the T-72 MBT. There 250 – 300 pieces in store sadly only 20% can be called for active duty. MBTF very high. Kenya has more working MBT in its arsenals at the moment more then south africa. Out of 12 Rooivalk AH-2 gunship (locally produced to) only 6 are airborne worthy. Again far less then the gunship in embakasi. . I don’t think is wise to charter our military in this direction.

      • India and Egyptian industry a germ of invention and necessity.
        This two military have a lot of moving and mechanical parts that local production would be feasible vise vie foreign procurements. With all there wealth and military aids, they have mainly stuck military trucks manufacturing. Egypt has subject its industry to mainly spare parts manufacturing for a long time. It has built locally APC but this are mainly wheeled one i.e these are lorries or trucks in Armor suit. Its biting what they can chew. They have cash for to sustain a research and development of armored APC. Recently they tried to take the next step in tank production. Egypt made the Ramese II tank. It failed and sent it to the US for modification. India also tried an MBT program and this what come out of it

        http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/army-security-forces/indias-mbt-arjun-its-standing-among-tanks-649/

  96. so whats the military balance in this region?

  97. Can someone explain what value we’d get in spending money converting our fixed wing pilots to helicopter training?

    http://www.pressreleasenetwork.com/newsroom/news_view.phtml?news_id=2921

    Is it that we are thinking of investing more in rotary aircraft.& if so,cant we train locally?

    Separately,can someone adv what our most realistic wish list of purchases would be, say in the next 5 yrs, given our contraints (competing spending needs,drought,stimulation economic growth,limited budget etc) , against the backdrop of the insecurity & maintaining a significant edge agst over potential adverseries?
    Would be nice if the breakdown be classed by units& make i.e corvettes, submarines, maritime helicopters, fighter planes, utility helicopters and battle tanks,, plus likely cost implication. I am thinking of stuff that can last us another 15-25 yrs, considering that most of what we have has lasted over 30yrs,served us quite well, & unfortunately, most of the inventory is coming towards its end-of-life term almost simultaneously, requiring simultaneous replacement.

    • equipments with the sign??? Are proposal or procurements yet to be secured

      ARMY
      Infantry
      G3 and LMG squad automatic weapon
      to be supplement by a new rile still being tested
      Interceptor body armor & K-pot helmets
      Humvee or VAMTAC
      Mercedes 911 utility truck by the Ashok Leyland Stallion
      Anti Tank
      Milan Er
      RPG -37
      TANK
      Vicker mk3 MBT mid life upgade laser targeting system and reactive amour suit.
      T-72AG complete package for T-72
      BMP-3
      BTR-94 ???
      Artillery
      Type 60 Field Gun, BM-21 MRLS
      Air Defense
      Tigercat SAM supplemented/replaced by BUK-M1-2
      Satellite communication system for Signal Battalion
      Air Calvary
      MD500 Midlife upgrade to 500MD Defender II/ MD530 Nightfox & (mast-mounted sight)

      • AIR FORCE
        DASH3 helmet.
        PL-8 , python,AIM-9M
        AIM-120 , AIM-9x???
        F-5E/F mid life upgrade to F-5S/T
        Bae Hawk Mk52 supplemented with L-159 dropped
        12 ex-Saudi Arabia F-5e dropped (lost to Brazil AF bid)
        12 ex-Jordanian F-5E/F upgraded to F-5 Plus
        DHC-5 Buffalo supplemented/replaced by CN295???
        Westland Gazelle AH.1/ MBB Bo 105 supplemented/replaced by Harbin Z-9W/G
        FC-1, J-10, F-16, JAS 39 Gripen ???
        Wilson airport ???

      • HALLELUYAH!!! We finally are having a BMP-3 ladies and gentlemen. now co,plete the package with the krisantema!

    • NAVY
      Kns Jasiri fleet flag ship.
      OTO-Melara 76 mm
      Gabriel IV missile
      Otomat Mk 2 Block IV missile
      Inshore patrol craft Spain
      Maritime Operations Center (coastal & inland)

    • You mean Hrisantema Tanks Killer

      • yes i meant hrisantema. Man, with only 15 of these predators we would be the undisputed champs of armoured warfare in East and Central Africa.

  98. SO HOW DO YOU RATE THE MILLITARY BALANCE IN THIS REGION BASED ON ALL NECESSARY DIMENSIONS OF WARFARE IE GROUND,AIR AND SEA AND HOW DOES KENYA FARE RELATIVE TO OUR NEIGHBORS ESPECIALLY UGANDANS WHO HAVE AN APPETITE FOR AGGRESSION?ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE ARE IN A POSITION TO RUN THEM OVER OR FOR THAT MATTER ARE YOU SAYING WE HOLD HIGHER GROUND BOTH IN OUR DEFENCE STRATEGIES AND SUPERIOR EQUIPMENT? THATS FOR YOU RISASI!

    • The military balance in this region is fluctuating so much due to ironing out of weak areas and having more educated offices at the Helm. For instance Uganda has finally resurrected its air force with the procument of MiG23. It has also enhanced a military collage like our defense staff college Karen Nairobi at Kimaka in Jinja to study on military science and doctrines. Tanzania had the best anti aircraft system in the region and a relative weak air forces. It has placed a order on Mig29 to supplement it s airforce. Kenya was lagging behind on air defenses system and IFV. it has procure Ukrainian Buk-M1 and IFV. Sudan has shifted its concentrations to Chad. So let wait and see in another 5 years or so. The region has also tried consolidating itself with exchanging information on terrorist activities disaster managements and secret military strategy in help each other against Egypt with regard to the Nile Water Agreement of 1929. A treaty like what Kenya and Ethiopia had during the Ogaden War. i.e if Ethiopia started losing the war Kenya would join in.

      • In a vitual military balance matrix a lot of subjects are taken into consideration. i.e the globe status, economy, education ,equipments among many . globe status plays a key role i.e you might have small armies being equipped and financed by a superpower in the background for its own desires. E.g the Ethiopian /Eritrean war was purely a Ukrainian vs Russia proxy war. Both warring countries had mercenaries, pilots and advisors from these countries. Sudan has used Cuban /Libya/Russia pilots in the trivial darfur conflict. If Libyan pilots were to intervene in a Ugandan conflict then the Uganda 5 year old air force would be catapults to a 30+ experience one. i.e the Libyan have more knowledge on the Mig23. so kilia mtu ana akili yake. Muganda knows if Kenya overwhelms me I will get Libyans to assist. Ethiopians will get there first cousins the Jews to help them and so forth.

    • With all said Kenya and Ethiopia are at the top of the list in terms of equipment, strategy and tactics. Both have a balanced, strong and formidable military in the region. Looking at there Con’s rather then the pro’s. Kenya has suffered from ethnic nepotism, mismanagements of funds and misplacement of military ideas. Ethiopia has lost out too. They have had a great dispersion of its experience Armed forces member and rapid influx of equipments. When the TPLF & EPRDF come into power they dismissing senior military officers who how had sided with Mengistu Haile Mariam. Some escaped into Kenya with their families while some were executed and severed long jail terms. as if this was not enough ,when the Eritrean state was curved out of Ethiopia , ethnic Eritrean left the Ethiopia Forces to form there own armed forces. Therefore experience was reduced drastically. To curb in the rapid influx of equipments Ethiopians hired expatriate to do the jobs.
      This was clearly visible during the Eritrean/Ethiopian war. The mighty Ethiopian military struggle to repulse the newly formed Eritrean Forces. Asmara is less the 100km from the border. I fail to see how they could not bring it to its knees in any hook or crook tactics.

      So in terms of military experience Vis a vis tactics and weaponology we stand out then most neighbors.
      In military exercise involving the three east African states like in the NATURAL FIRE EXERCISE Kenya has always out shadow other states in basic military skills tactics and ideas.

  99. Thanks Risasi, this is useful information. I did’nt know that Tanzania has placed an order for MiG 29 until i read it here. Could they be phasing out some of our MD 500 helicopters? I note from the order of battle only 5 instead of the usual 35 for Kenya.

    • Tz has placed an order for 6 MiG29 and 3 Mi24 . What it about the MD500 that you distaste. The air Calvary battalion is good for dealing with the influx of soviet and Chinese tanks and armor in the region. The chopper can knock out four tanks in a single sortie with its TOW missile. It can do scout/Recce and infantry support duties. With an open area Northern frontier Gunships are needed for counter attacks. What else is needed? The 50ACB is one the largest attack helicopter battalion in Africa. Search the net and see. Some chopper might be down but there not redundant. Its just a lark of spare parts.
      If you want better pictures for wikipedia I can send you.

      • with the soviets habits of embeding substandard equipment in newer ones the Tanzanians won’t have much of an advantage over our air force. Remember what they didi to the Algerians? i tell you the Russians operate like river road guys!

  100. What would be the wisdom & strategic thinking of TZ airforce commanders investing in Mig 29; my understanding is that, the 4th gen. aircraft fighter jet requires the pilots to have extensive training, air-defense infrastructure, and constant maintenance and upgrade, which would be quite costly to keep them flying. If they are struggling to have Shenyang J-5 (mig 17 derivative) & J-7 / F-7 Airguard (mig 21 derivative) flying due to airworthness problems, would they be able to support their mig 29?I know, they have a long coastline to patrol,& are looking at their north eastern “stronger” neighbour rearming robustly;they probably need an aircraft that can reach nairobi,maputo, or kampala incase of hostilities;malawi & zambia pose no major threat, as does Congo. My thinking is that the Mig29 would be way up the ladder. Perhaps a few newer J7s, which are cheaper & easier to mantain, plus some mid life upgrades of existing aircraft.
    On is it that they have their eyes on tUganda, based on past conflict & expansionist tendencies?

    • that’s the situation the ground Izzo kila mtu ame amka. Midlife upgrade is moving on very first in the region. Uganda started the race when it bought 7 ex Polish MIG21 and Mi35 in the late 90”s early 2000 to revive its airforce. They latter upgraded the MIGs to MiG21-2000 in Israeli. they also sent 3 squadrons of pilots to be trained in Israeli for the MiG,s. This made all entire Tanzania airforce defenceless against a notorious UG with MiG21 2000 series. One of this refurbished MiG crashed and killed a Russian pilot in Entebbe if you can remember. This is the time TZ made an order for 6 MiG29 and several Mi,s too. But latter on it postponed the MiG29 plans but continue with there pilots training program at an Eastern Bloc nation. The suspension of the MiG program was to avail funds to procure a surveillance radar. The radars is said to have a good sweep like the one in MAB. A corruption scandal issue going on in kikwete regime about the radar procurement if you are following the news.. The MiG29 and MiG21/F-7 have similar cockpits more or less, so conversion usually takes less time and effort. So as you had asked air defense infrastructure almost completed, training in hand too. Now looking at what is going on at Mwanza AB you will get the see of it all. it looks like the MiG program is up again. And by the way the countries that you mention malawi, zambia & Congo are rapidly enhancing there air forces with Mi35 gunship. i have pictures of Congo Kinshasa technicians working on there Mi35 you will sit in wonder of what will become of the crafts in the next 10years.
      MiG29 have a low endurance time so don,t worry about Nairobi. Plus a Tiger III can match a MiG29.

  101. SO WHO IS OUR FRIEND AND WHO SHOULD WE FEAR IN THIS REGION?I WOULD THINK ETHIOPIA IS A THRET BUT THEN AGAIN THEIR TACTICS AGAINST ERITREA WAS MEDIEVAL AND STONE AGE (TRENCH WARFARE) .BY THE WAY EGYPT IS BENT ON CONTROLLING THE NILE AND I WONDER WHETHER OTHER NILE STATES ESPECIALLY SUDAN AND EAST AFRICA HAVE THE GUTS TO STOP EGYPT.WHAT DO YOU THINK RISASI?

    • Who should we trust? I think that question is in the “inside out” phase. Its “Who trusts Kenya”. The country has been involved in covert operations with the C.I.A in this region for more the two decades arms supply to rebels/Militias overthrowing and destabilizing many governments. From RENAMO/ FRELIMO, great lakes, south sudan, the ill fated Said Barre/ Mohamed Farrah Aidid plan , Mobutu Sese Seko etc. the C.I.A has enjoyed a stress free work station in this country .

      The aspect of fear doesn’t arise in any situation at this point. he who feels is stronger let him come over. by now don’t you think the Ethiopians would have lunched an operation into kneya to wipe out Oromo train facilities in our soil rather then go into Somalia.
      bravery is not an absences of fear but pursuing an objective while your in fear

      • risasi…
        how is our armed forces readiness in deployment in case of our fall out with one of our neighbours…? and is it true that Ethiopiaarmy is twice as big as ours…?

    • When you talk about Egypt it’s a strong country. My perceptions are that even Isreal will struggle to fight them the incase of a eventullty now

  102. DOES KENYA HAVE TIGER 3 TO TACKLE THE MIGS?ALL THIS DEBATE ABOUT F5s how many functional of them are in the inventory right now?

    • Ali,

      i believe this issue of the F5s was intensively discussed earlier esp. by risasi. simly scroll up to previous posts and you will get your answers. the discussion so soo intense even comparing various planes vs the F5 in dog fights. it was also clearly pointed out that the ultimate decider would also depend on the “quality of pilots” behing the “wheels/stick” of the jet in question.

      please feel free to read all the prevois posts … herein lies the answers !!!

    • There former blogs that you will have to read to update your self with this forum like processor said The f-5 from Jordanian are being upgraded to F-5 plus, in Jordan Aeronautical Systems Company facilities. this upgrades involves the Israel Aircraft industries assitance. There some upgrade topics that will not be covered by Israel due to Israeli position with Jordan i.e an Arab state. This uncovered areas will be upgraded by Rockwell Collins
      the existing where upgraded from F-5E to F-5S by a Singapore firm

      The F-5 plus and f-5S performances is discussed in the blogs below

      http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/northrop_f5e_tiger_ii.htm

      http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17362

      some fighters are indeed not flying. they haven’t been condemned as you might feel so but are missing some spare part or are to undergo schedules maintenance. with a little patch here and there they can be in action.

  103. I had asked earlier “Can someone explain what value we’d get in spending money converting our fixed wing pilots to helicopter training?”

    http://www.pressreleasenetwork.com/newsroom/news_view.phtml?news_id=2921

    Risasi, perhaps you could shed some light. What would be the added value of such a move?

    • Izzo,

      am not an expert in combat issues but from a laymans reasoning, if i was in charge maybe i should think along ‘what advantages do helicopters have over fixed wing planes in combat situations ?’, ama maintainance costs, costs of purchase, our immedite threats in terms of potential enemies and their current strategies in terms of weapons of purchase, etc what is my enemy doing in their armoury ? how do i counter that ? i would think long term in terms of what do i want to achieve by going helicopters. also can be a stop gap measure as i prepare to go high tech with my fixed wing equipment. ama vipi risasi ? tom olekoima whats your take on this ?

      but am not sure why we would take current fixed wing pilots to go helicopters tho coz i’d rather recruit fresh guys and send them for the training. ama the idea is to train trainers for our pilot scollege ? thus persons with experience in other setups ? i guess the answer lies in looking at it in its most basic setup rather than a complex reasoning level !

    • I think the value you will get is that the pilot can fly both birds after the conversion. Ama? or am not getting the question clearly.

    • this is an isolated case and its wrong how the school is using it to booster their status. lieutenants have never been senior office in the air force.

    • IZZO – please allow me to try response. As the Officer corps is structured today, and Risasi will will bear me out, benchmarks are strictly set on competences that graduate one’s path progressively. Reviews are constant and competition very aggressive. But while persistent failure to achieve these benchmarks eventually result in your being phased out of the Corps, there are serious efforts made to sift these numbers to the bearest minimum, simply because it is extremely expensive to train and maintain one single officer in our Armed Forces Officer Corp. Now, it is clear to most of you that Kenya is aggressively building up an offensive Military Capacity on all Formations, to the effect that estimates available of USD400Million are only what is visible – alot of the spending may never see daylight outside the Military. Hence, the present strategy is to re-qualify these Fixed Wing Pilots, who may either choose to or are not clear candidates for progression, into Rotary Wing flying as a rapid expansion strategy of our Anti-tank and Rapid Deployment abilities using Helicopters. A lot of you may not understand that core to our General Military Offensive Strategy is defense in-depth which has developed Offensive Planning across our national borders – better actualised by Rotary Wing capacity.
      There is no alarm in this, IZZO, and it is a sound and well thought out strategy. Risasi?

  104. Microprocessor, thanks for your thoughts. Where are all these other folks?Please shed some light. Meanwhile,an interesting debate going on on elsewhere might be of interest.

    http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article32298

    More colloborative info from Janes Mar 27,2009 Assessment http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/cafrsu/kenys100.html “Thousands of former and serving members of the Kenyan armed forces are being recruited with the tacit approval of their superiors, both military and civilian, to join the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (SPLA)” etc etc.
    Then, lastly, what is our long term defence & diplomatic attitude towards the Illemi Triangle, with the potential oil reserves that may be lying underneath? Could be related to our behaviour to the GoSS?

    • Izzo,

      Thanks for the link. I’ve read comments from some ignorant south Sudanese about how they view our military, they are best ignored. The issue of Illemi triangle appears sensitive, but i believe there could be oil there. Let’s wait to see how this will be handled in the days a head, however i don’t think Kenya will let it go.

  105. Izzo,

    Consider the following in a non combat situation maybe that way it would be possible to ‘reason’ in a combat situation yaani these ideas may help us forma basis for reasoning our answers to your questions while thinking combat theaters ! got them via googling.

    Fixed wing aircraft
    Advantages
    • More economical – lower running costs.
    • Less vibration.
    • Good endurance.
    • Plenty of space for equipment.
    Disadvantages
    • Wing tip or strut can get in the way.
    • Continuously moving.
    • Can be difficult to position.
    Rotary Aircraft
    Advantages
    • Can hover – remain stationary in the air.
    • Can operate very low to the ground.
    • Greater maneuverability on the spot.
    • Easy to get into the right position for the required shot.
    Disadvantages
    • High cost per hour.
    • Smaller lower cost helicopters have greater vibration.
    • Lower cost helicopters such as the R22 have very little room for equipment.

  106. Risasi, you probably got my question wrongly. Why would KAF spend over 20m rand ( approx Kshs 200m) converting its fixed aircraft pilots to rotary pilots? & furthermore, overseas instead of locally? Why not train a fresh batch of rotary pilots,& do so locally?Could it be that we’ve got so few fixed wing aircraft,compared to the available fixed wing pilots, that we need the idle pilots crosstrained,so that instead of them spending downtime,you asign the to helicopters.?(that way,you dont have to pay more guys that u need,you just cross-train & cross-assign them to the 2 types of aircraft) Or are you intentious of having them develop as future trainers,as microprocesser suggests? Or do they intend to invest more in rotary than fixed wing craft in future?
    Is it a good way of spending some Kshs 200m, if you were the decision maker? I hope you now get my drift.

    • Izzo, is it converting or supplementing? I thought the goal is to increase their training hence efficiency so that we can continue to maintain a lean yet a highly effective well funded force.

      • this boys will only be there for a short time and are already aviators not cadets. let the boys enjoy there tour of duty form the forces

  107. There appears to be an arms race of some sort in the region. Everyone is suddenly re-arming. Look at Tanzania with MiG 29s, Sudan, Ethiopia with SU-27s, Eritrea, Uganda with upgraded MiG 21s ,Kenya etc. What is going on.

    • Olekoima,

      could it be due to oil ? and the anticipated free government of “south sudan” ? what about being “an east and central power house” of the region …. i.e the big boss man ?

      if you were the president of one of these other countries you have mentioned, why would you build your forces in this time and age ? considering who your neighbours are and their potentials ? notice all of them are building their air forces with tough birds !

      if i were the one then if not for war then i would simply want to pass a message that mimi sio walk over, infact attack me at your own risk !

      by the way, what is the difference between a mig 29 and a SU 27 ? they look a like to me !!!!!

      • The MiG29 is a home land fighter i.e was built to intercept enemy aircrafts within Russian borders .its an in theater fighter. It is smaller then the Su27. its small size made it fallout with small fuel tanks. small fuel tank + 2 larger engine equals to less endurance time. That wasn’t a problem as it was meant to operator within Russia i.e it could do a one way trip fight and land at the nearest air field. it’s midsize has made it a better dogfighter then an Su27.the MiG29 smokes a lot and you can easily tell where it is by looking at the smoke trail. The Su27 is a superiority fighter. Its function is to keep of the enemy fighter while unprotected bombers, gunships or any flying craft can roam in the enemies airspace without being attacked from the air. it also escort bombers deep in the enemies territories and back during marathon air assault. It can shoot at a long distance and can remain airborne for longer hours. It’s more or less an enlarged MiG29 but has lost out on close combat due to its size.

    • I feel the airforce upgradments is a dominal effect rather then a planed one. In east Africa It all start when Museveni and Moi raffled feather in the mid 80s. Museveni brought in N.korea experts to valuate his forces after. The results were without an airforce he should try to engage a major conflict or a professional military force. Museveni took the advice for granted. upon enter the Congo war the N.Korea advice echo back. he could not push inwards with out an air cover. Both his allies Rwanda and Burundi had none. On the other side Zimbabwe ,Angola and Namibia were pounding their enemies effectively from the air.

    • after the end of the war Uganda restructured its Military with an airforce plan being a focal point. The same effect was realized during the Ethiopian civil war. The poor state of the airfoces made it easy for them to move ahead. They too upgraded their airfoces so as to avoid a repeat on them. At that time Tz wasn,t concerned, it knew it only had Rwanda Burundi and Uganda to fight. the most notorious in the region that is. Its land border between each of these neighbors is hardly more then 100km. the Uganda border is mainly on lake Victoria. if they can hold them from crossing its 100km wide border they can easily attack the other parts of ug via the air unchallenged. with its exsiting MiG17 and its likes. it could performs any operations and fight any would be attacks from its southern parts. Tz is a peace loving nation but wouldn,t want to wait and experiment with an balanced Ug Force

    • time changed Uganda and ethopia have learnt the value of a functioning airforce the hard way. Sudan too had to do the same as it has an open and wide area to cover against the existing Chad reprisal. Sudan too is a peace loving country. Both sudan and chad are now armed with MiG29

  108. technically they are the same in all variables except the manufacturer of the planes .their capabilities do not really differ.

  109. Fixed and Rotary flying are diametrically different and demand very different mental preparation / indoctrination. One does not cross-train here, gentlemen, and to any commander, crosstrained abilities indicate confusion of response / reflex / attitude. Remember that a part of a warrior-training is mental, and because the demands on the warrior are dependant on his equipment, cross-training is hardly done in fields so diametrically different. For instance, I went to para school, and also went to combat school – these two complimented my skills learnt at the different schools, and made me a more effective Weapon. In deadly combact, a soldier cannot be a jack of all trade, but the finite objective of a warrior is specialisation to the finest degree. Therefore my response to IZZO query earlier holds that this cross-training is an alternative to the exit-option for those fixed wing pilots who cannot see clearly paths of progression in the Fixed Wing Squadrons. And the Armed Forces proposes this altenative to retain already trained and valuable expertise within it, instead of starting afresh with raw recruits who must obvously go through the same warrior-indoctrination that may eventually fail or take years to inculcate in the recruits – these trained pilots are part of the Esprit des Corps, and available in the event of a general hostilities and general mobilisation.
    So there!

  110. Hey, guys, I have served with the “D” of 20 Coy, and Risasi is spot on about this and the CDU. Those chaps are damn good, I tell you, and train with the best. We have done covert insertions all over this East Africa, and done some realy crazzzy things too. Mostly disruptions of comms, blowing up things, some complicated disinformation, plenty of ‘take-outs’ of some chaps in certain command structures, Intel and surveillance. In virtually all countries in the regiion that conflict has been, we have been there, guys.A lot of the stuff you read in blogs about our Armed Forces really gets us a good laugh, seing how effective the disinformation has worked – recall the writting about satelite pictures of tanks tracking to the Sudan? Come on, guys, just how stupid can one educated chap be??

  111. A defense industry component of a Armed Forces Strategy only make sense when in efffect one is faced with imminent aggression at any level about that we face, or an active export policy such as the Israeli, Swedes and Chinese and others have. Because these are justified by productivity and consumption of the products that are churned out. A peace-time Fighting force that trains to develop Excellence of strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control -such as Kenya, cannot justify the massive capital needed by theses sort of industries. However, this excellence of Strategy and effectiveness of Command / Control also develops a deep ability to technical understanding of equipment and weaponry. Indeed part of our General Plannning involves detailed training and exposure to the manufacture of basic equipment used by our Forces, from a diverse sourcing. Kenya has therefore a well-developed pool of knowledge that would quickly be brought to bear in the event of an imminent armed conflict in terms of a rapid program of armament manufacture. Coupled with this is very concrete and vital agreements with several Western Countries specifically in contigent of this eventuality. In the “D” Coy of the Paratroopers, as Risasi and others will attest, every man has the training and capacity to personalise his weapons, by making sophisticated alterations and improvements that suits him!!
    Certainly, preparedness is the key to victory for any fighting force, and we in the Armed Forces of Kenya, within the limitations we face, are definitely cognisant of this indeed. Of that, I assure the doubting johns

  112. Well said, Ole Nkarei. But with the above scenarios on what is hapening to the airforces around us,i reckon it is fair to say that the edge we have held for so long has seriously been erroded,-or perhaps wiped out-even with our upgraded F5s. Its a pity that F16s & Gripens are well beyond our financial means & amazing that we could afford/secure F5s 30yrs ago – a top fighter of its generation, & now we cannot afford/secure top fighters of the current generation. We need to work harder,guys!

  113. IZZO, please allow me.
    If you take that Defense Industries arent meant primarily to produce for domestic Military consumption but for Export, since the profit generated allows for further Research a & Development as well as Expansion, and a tidy sum to finance domestic consumption, then it follows that a lot of the Hardware on Offer in in the Market is generally over-rated, mostly duplication of other competing Hardware(similar capacities/functions), and may contain functions that are unusable in the heat of Battle, etc. The arguments for and against competing Hardware is mostly driven by the Objective to make a sale, and so might not differ very much from that between OMO and SUNLIGHT powder soaps!! Military Planners shift through this B.S guided by rational considerations of Functions Satisfied ( in the eyes of the Planners) and Cost-efffectiveness of this satisfaction. I think someone on this blog informed and correctly so that few Airmen who have had substantial hours on the F5 will think an F16 and the Gripens are a combat upgrade!
    As concerns the shift of Air-power in Eastern African Skies, the truth is that the Race you are witnessing around us is infact a Catch-Up reaction by the TZ, UG, and Ethiopia. A factor that might not be clear to some is that the quality of an Officer Corps is a direct result of the quality of Education in a country. Factor that the depth of Fighter Training in Kenya ( fighter planes vide Fighet pilot) exceeds 16-to-one that of Ethiopia (closest rivals), and our much larger ability to mobilise the Economy in the event of open hostilities within a period of 45Days( Ethiopia Mobilised against tiny, puny Eritrea over a year!!), it will become clear indeed why Kenya has yet to face Armed Aggression from our Neighbours.
    I need to explain too that the configuration of our Armed Forces follows a doctrine of an offensive defense – which generally interpretes as a very violently aggressive, fluidly mobile combat beyond our borders over an expansive front. Consequently you will notice that our Armed Forces have carefully constituted specialised formations that gives a very capable ability to project itself into any theatre to substantial depth.
    Relax IZZO, you are in very good and capable hands, man.

  114. There are no ABRAM tanks of any version anywhere outside Egypt in Africa. And just one squandron of even the oldest variant would bankrupt the economy of any East African Nation. Its is wholly unsuited for Armoured Combat here being hopeless superior to anything else available – ergo- it is madness to acquire them.
    The dominant tanks are the T74, and some T-84 that South Africa has produced on License from the Ukraine. Even these vary in capacities due to the upgrades contained in each sequential breed.

  115. Thanks Tom, I also doubted the existence of such a tank in East Africa. Somebody tried to post in Wikipedia that Kenya had some 85 of them. Separately Izzo posted a link indicating that Kenyan armed forces are helping train the S. Sudanese on use of various military equipment. Doesn’t this not complicate matters especially in view of the contentious Illemi triangle which appears to be claimed by three countries i.e Sudan, Ethiopia and Kenya?

  116. Actually a lot of this training is under the radar, so to speak, and we are doing in proxy to the Americans since someone has to do it. And due to the Geopolitical realities facing the Americans in the Greater Arab sector, it is preferred to “out-source” this training. Our tank schools, and combat leadership schools are really top of the range by all international standards, and hence the jobs befalls us. But also, a lot of newly retired NCO and Officers are being sent out there to undertake this job – you cannot serve in any “armed capacity” once in the disciplined forces unless expressly the GOK grants specific approval!
    As concerns the ILLEMI Triangle, the reason this little bit has not gone for arbitration or blown up into a issue of concern is because there is no contention about it’s ownership at all. It is raised up occassionally to stir up emotions amongst the uninformed, and give the impression that there are issues between the three countries on this piece of land that could lead to armed conflict. But in strategic studies at our Defense Colleges, clear articulation of “this Country Kenya” is made to explicitly indicate what we know is the mission of the Armed Forces, carefully and in clear details, from both Historical and Legal basis.
    One thing though is that this whole region seats atop huge reserves of rare and valuable minerals that extend into the three countries. So that all this Military posturing is simply just that, and essentially the reason that these have remained underground up to date.
    We have been practically in semi-mobilised state for years. And we are as ready as we could possibly be in peace-time, olekoima, and I think you know this too.

  117. I encourage members to read a brilliant piece by Dr. Nene Mburu, a retired army officer on Ilemi triange.

    http://web.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v7/v7i1a2.htm.

    If you find time as, also check out an interesting study of what challenges Kenyatta/Kenya was facing,& we are still facing .e book Ethnic groups in conflict By Donald L. Horowitz

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1nC8htP6SE4C&pg=PA532&lpg=PA532&dq=military+balance+kenya&source=bl&ots=jwmhn2A4Mi&sig=hzueXz0M2QEtrrHpQWGiSczwRjA&hl=en&ei=t4WOSo-lIMv3-AaGjOnyDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=military%20balance%20kenya&f=false

  118. & then, although alittle outdated,but useful nevertheless, see Military spending in developing countries: how much is too much? By Brian MacDonald, pg 127 Case Study;Kenya;Strategic Threat Analysis, down till pg 141.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F9NEecs7ACIC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=kenya+military+balance&source=bl&ots=bbNFqxgN4A&sig=KNPgI4IECSlnXhPZlrgXfhHrjy0&hl=en&ei=TJWnSuf8DNGgjAfv-YSrCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=kenya%20military%20balance&f=false

    It will help bridge the gap between “those-who-know-more,&those-who-know-little”.

    • izzo i can see your doing a great deal research on the defense capabilities in the region. when you read through the Threat Analysis Doc. you will find its just what we have been discussing for a year or so in this Blog

  119. Thanks Izzo, i have actually seen this book. It is quite interesting and useful especially if you read it all. You will notice that some of the weaknesses raised have now been addressed, Risasi has even confirmed these by some of his posts above same as Ole Nkarei. The book may be old but atleast it gives one some insights on the kind of threats that we may face and how we are likely to fare. Obviously we are safe. Let it be so for many years.

  120. Olekoima, what’s your unit, man? Code it pls.
    Izzo, pain-in-the-ass, you?.
    Thanks.

    • attache at kenya defence college over.am impressed by the knowledge some of u guys exhibit though ill tell you what you say here is just a tip of iceberg.our airspace is well guarded and those migs at the inventory of our neighbors are menacing from outside.but our air defence capabilities is sufficient to ensure they make no impact in this hemisphere.chill over.

  121. I have some pictures of east African airforces if Nairobi chronicles will accept to up load them i will send them. i think Nairobi chronicles you should create a page 2 now of this blog and charge it with a more friendly Caption.

  122. Risasi – where have you been? And Nairobi Chroniicles might suffer the same syndrome of our Media, running articles and headlines to run-up their circulation. Else this blog would have long change the Caption.

    • i am there my brother, just pushing on with life. lets hope Nairobi Chronicles becames a patriot and keeps good of the Crash Military Courses we have conducted in this blog and rewards us with a better page and caption.

  123. Some 1 yr old news.

    http://www.fincantieri.it/cms/data/browse/news/000254.aspx

    Maybe it is time to create a regional website for regional security issues. The whole broad realm of security, not just defence issues. Food security,IT security, personal security, national security, etc etc.
    I bet it would be home to many of our experts here.
    What do you think, guys?I reckon there is enough stuff to keep it going for a long time, & there isnt any other such forum, that is, there is an opportunity for it.

  124. We’ll keep plugging at this until we get some respect. The blood and sweat of years, and all you get to see and read is half-backed conjecture couched in some pseudo-intellectual B.S!! Wish i could put some of these guys through the basic obstacle pursuit course – with me and my guys hunting them, harrassing them all night!!
    Just come back home from a long CI tour of the Ituri /North Kivu Sector, guys, on some R & R couple of weeks. Man, that place is hot, and the world does not know just how! Wanna hear about it, fellas?\

  125. I am impressed by the level to which these discussions have grown. Its become clear to those who visit this pages on a regular basis that there is a depth of expertise never before seen from our defence experts. The problem is that this depth of knowledge and experience is hardly known outside of the barracks.

    I have never believed those who say that our soldiers are idling in the barracks. I do know that this is not the case. I think the main failing of our defence forces is not adapting to the information society that the world has become. People are hungry for information but if the information is not there, that is why you end up with rumours, half-baked conjecture and pseudo-intellectual BS.

    The US military has a communication strategy (which I have seen) that states that it is the duty of the armed forces to be open with information in order to justify their existence to the tax payer. Of course, this has to be without compromising state security. If you go to the internet, you will get any information you want about US weapons systems and personnel. I guess their argument is that anybody serious enough to want the information will already have obtained it through intelligence sources. The US forces are so serious with information that they have “Communication Specialists” within their ranks and whose job is to filter information and photos to the media. If you don’t manage your information, then don’t blame the media for depending on disgruntled elements for information about the Forces.

    Coming back to Kenya, why the secrecy with the Armed Forces? Secrecy only manages to hide information from the general public but I can bet that our neighbours already know what our arsenal is. Its really not that difficult especially if you know where to look and who to ask.

    In Tanzania, the Defence Forces have a monthly newspaper. Why not Kenya? This could go a long way in telling the public what you guys are doing with taxpayer money. The idea about a defence website is a good one and long overdue. It could spur the kind of lively debate we see on this blog post.

    • why not take the oppotionity and form a military magazine. wewe sema yote 9 lakini moja itabaki ufanye. you need to redo the caption for this blog.

    • There used to be a military mag called Majeshi Yetu, i don’t know if it still circulates. maybe risasi and co can confirm. As for the navy they have one cald the sailor.

  126. A continuation to my thoughts in the previous comment:

    As a start, I would suggest some sort of inter-forces publication or website. This will include news and information from all the branches of the armed forces: Army, Airforce, Navy, Kenya Police, Administration Police, Prisons, NYS and KWS. This is because, initially, there may not be enough information to have a publication for each service but as the concept grows and the information needs grow, then each service could spin off its own publication.

    Target audiences should be:
    - Members of the armed forces (soldiers and police need to know what’s happening in the other services other than their own). The combined numbers are more than enough to justify a publication. Just think of how many publications teachers already have!

    - The general public

    - The media (local and international).

    • nairobi chronicle,
      i got a bit scared when you guys decided to go too “technical” in terms of military jargon. like i said am not military but computers ( their technology and security) esp. networks !

      the idea of the publication would be good but let everyone irrespective of their background consume it. am sure, maybe, their only fear would be spies from other countries but please siku hizi all this is available on line or via magazines like janes defence weekly etc
      when you do open up ppl get to know more about you and appreciate our role in the society esp where tax payers money is concerned. with TEAMS, ESSAY and SEACOM cable rolling out we are just about to witness one of the most amazing events in out country YET very few are aware of the implications of this cable in terms of security in ALL our sectors not just security in terms of ARMED FORCES. i hope our MIA, the NSIS, the POLICE and CCK are ready for these cables i.e their “capabilities” and “implications” to the nations security…….WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE A SERIOUS SURGE IN CYBER RELATED CRIMES like we have never witnessed before. we do not just need tanks, jet fighter or naval ships, its time to go specially trained cyber security experts in all our defense systems as well……….REMEMBER TO PAY THEM WELL !!!!!

      • don’t worry microprocessor we had to go technical otherwise the blog would have render the Armed Forces as a good for nothing “SECURITY PARASTAL”. i have sent pictures on East africa airforces to be published by the Nairobi chronicle. hope this will lighten the blog.

        was reading about the new fiber optic cable, it will be a plus to this region.

  127. HAI RISASI GOOD JOB.HOW CAN I VIEW THE PICTURES YOU MENTIONED ABOVE?

  128. Risasi,
    l second you on the idea of coming up with a Magazine.

  129. i sent the pictures to Nairobi chronicle via email he will publish them on his web. the pictures include relic picture of Somalia aircorps,UAV aquired by sudan airforce to the newly formed congo/zaire airforce with Mirage F-1, Su25 ,Mig23, Mi35 ,C-130 ,Puma and the Mi26 helo (the bigest chopper in the world) .in paper the Congo airforce looks tougher then the jeshi la wanainchi airforce. the region has known the value of a fuctioning airforce.

  130. A military magazine to tell our story to the civilian types is a powerful weapon both good and bad for the same civilian types. In the most classic example of this, consecutive American administrations have used the media and all this freedom to know what your tax money is doing, in concerning the Armed Foces, to permanently enslave their people to adventures that all other societies and government in the World have condemned. How do you expect the Iraqi occupation to have ran this long without the disinformation and propaganda efforts of the Armed Forces through all manner of publications? What about the slaughter taking place in Afaghanistan of innocent civilians and not so innocent combatants, and there is not serious moral debate taking place in the American Society? I am all for a magazine, and will contribute my two bits worth, but a student of military matters, I must warn that this is a double-edged sword that all despots cannot resist. Information is power, and a factor in all modern day combat situations.t

  131. F-5 Tiger-II are junk fighters. See where F-5 is in the table:

    —-

    This table compares the T/W ratios using a constant fuel weight of 3505kgs(7729lbs).

    T/W ratio = Max Thrust of Engine(s) / (Empty Weight + (3.505 tonnes of fuel, or fuel & weapons))

    1.48 – F-15K
    1.37 – F-22
    1.32 – Su-35BM
    1.29 – F-15C
    1.26 – Su-27S
    1.25 – Eurofighter
    1.23 – Su-27SK & J-11A
    1.22 – Su-30MKI
    1.19 – Rafale C
    1.18 – Mig-29M/M2
    1.16 – Su-30MKK
    1.15 – Mig-29A
    1.148 – F/A-18E/F
    1.10 – F-16 Block 52
    1.09 – F-16 Block 60
    1.09 – F-16 Block 50
    1.08 – F-35A
    1.08 – F-14D
    1.06 – Mig-29k
    1.03 – F-2A
    1.01 – J-10
    1.008 – J-8II
    1.00 – F-35B
    0.99 – MiG-23MLD Flogger-K
    0.94 – F-35C
    0.94 – Gripen NG
    0.94 – F-4E
    0.881 – Mirage 2000 C & H
    0.88 – LCA
    0.86 – F-CK-1
    0.84 – JF-17
    0.84 – Mig-19S**
    0.83 – Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
    0.81 – Mig-27K
    0.81 – F-20
    0.80 – Mig-21 Bis
    0.76 – J-7E & F-7BG
    0.70 – F-7PG
    0.68 – F-7MB
    0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II
    0.57 – Mirage-IIIE & 5

    Pure Interceptors
    1.22 – Mig-31E
    0.87 – MiG-25P Foxbat-A

    Empty Weight – Thrust – Fighter

    31,700 – 29,160 X 2 – F-15K
    43,340 – 35,000 X 2 – F-22
    40,565 – 31,967 X 2 – Su-35BM
    28,600 – 23,450 X 2 – F-15C
    35,935 – 27,600 X 2 – Su-27S
    24,250 – 20,000 X 2 – Eurofighter
    37,192 – 27,600 X 2 – Su-27SK & J-11A
    40,565 – 29,400 X 2 – Su-30MKI
    20,948 – 17,000 X 2 – Rafale C
    25,573 – 19,580 X 2 – Mig-29M/M2
    39,903 – 27,600 X 2 – Su-30MKK
    24,030 – 18,300 X 2 – Mig-29A
    30,600 – 22,000 X 2 – F/A-18E/F
    18,780 – 29,160 X 1 – F-16 Block 52
    22,000 – 32,500 X 1 – F-16 Block 60
    19,200 – 29,400 X 1 – F-16 Block 50
    29,300 – 39,900 X 1 – F-35A
    43,735 – 27,800 X 2 – F-14D
    29,211 – 19,580 X 2 – Mig-29K
    21,000 – 29,500 X 1 – F-2A
    19,544 – 27,557 X 1 – J-10
    21,653 – 14,815 X 2 – J-8II
    32,000 – 39,900 X 1 – F-35B
    21,153 – 28,700 X 1 – MiG-23MLD Flogger-K
    34,800 – 39,900 X 1 – F-35C
    15,653 – 22,000 X 1 – Gripen NG
    30,328 – 17,845 X 1 – F-4E
    16,538 – 21,380 X 1 – Mirage 2000 C & H
    14,100 – 19,100 X 1 – LCA
    14,300 – 09,500 X 2 – F-CK-1
    14,134 – 18,300 X 1 – JF-17
    11,983 – 08,300 X 2 – Mig-19S**
    32,000 – 16,410 X 2 – Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
    26,252 – 27,600 X 1 – Mig-27K
    13,150 – 17,000 X 1 – F-20
    11,770 – 15,650 X 1 – Mig-21 Bis
    11,667 – 14,650 X 1 – J-7E & F-7BG
    11,629 – 13,448 X 1 – F-7PG
    11,629 – 13,219 X 1 – F-7MB
    09,558 – 05,000 X 2 – F-5E Tiger-II
    15,600 – 13,240 X 1 – Mirage-IIIE & 5

    Pure Interceptors
    48,100 – 34,172 X 2 – Mig-31E
    44,080 – 22,494 X 2 – MiG-25P Foxbat-A

    Weight in lb, and Thrust in lbf.
    3505 kg = 7729 lb
    ** Empty weight + 7729 lb exceeds max takeoff weight.
    Su-35BM, Su-30MKK, J-10′s weight is an estimate.

    • Impressing data but being a lay man you are failing to interpret it. I will only tell you being Bottom in that list isn’t necessary an indication of an inefficient craft. Keep on with your research.

      • or what do you understand from the data

      • Simple.. if there is a dogfight, F-5 can’t climb, and can’t outmaneuver a Su-27 or Mig-29. Once it losses airspeed, it can’t recover it quickly as a su-27 or a mig-29. It can be a match for F-7′s, but F-7′s can accelerate faster and move out of harms way from a f-5.

        In short, F-5 is a 2nd generation fighter which was made to counter Mig-21s. it is no match for 4th Generation Fulcrums and flankers which is possession of other African nations.

        Most probably there was some bribes and kickbacks involved in this deal.

  132. Also F-5′s are powered by highly inefficient Turbojet engines which is so ancient it’s not even in production. All 4 gen fighers are powered by Turbo fan engines.

    The F-5 engines were so crappy and inefficient, that the american’s offered F-20, which is F-5 with a single, more advanced and efficient engine. See where F-20 is in that list. I can’t believe there are people defending this junk and comparing it to 4 gen fighters. It’s blasphemy.

    And I’m not a layman.

  133. And being a second Gen fighter, it probably has piss poor G-limits of 5 to 6. And because of it’s low G limits, it can’t make tighter turns. Well, having that kind of T/W ratio, you better not turn hard since once you lose Airspeed, you are as good as dead if your opponent has higher TWR.

    I can go on and on.

  134. It’s good to know your not a layman and I apologies if it offended you. if there is something educative I can learn from you then why not. I would go to sleep having learnt something new. So from your perspective and experience I would appreciate to know or if you could explain to me in simple terminology the following details.

    Again from your perspective and experience.

  135. Fuji,

    The F-5 is not a second generation fighter, it is third generation. Early versions of the the MiG 21s are second generation though. Your analysis is good but you miss the point. Most of what you have given is theoretical and might not mean much. You will need to look at the practical performances of the various aircraft as well. For instance, during the gulf war the Tornado gave a good account of itself yet from your analysis, it is way below the MiG 29. The F-5 was there as well being used by the Saudis and it did not dissapoint while in the company of the more potent F-18s,F-15s, F-117s, Tornado etc.
    Yes the Mig 29 and the Su 27s are more mordern and are fourth generation fighters, but that does not mean they are way a head of an upgraded F-5 fighter. Besides, you will recall that Algeria returned some her MiG 29s to Russia due to dissapointment in them.

  136. To Mr Fuji

    1. What are these pure interceptor that you have in the list?

    2. what happens when a fighter higher in the list meets a lower ranking fighter. Lets say like in the third world regions where AWACS and like system are not in operational. A one on one combat episode, a basic dog fights something similar to that. What’s your suggestion?

    3. Its true that the jet engines have evolved to better ones.
    So what’s the fate of the f-5 in these modern times. With it’s out dated engines.

  137. Nah.. I was not offended personally, but I was annoyed when people were making comparisons between 2nd generation and 4 gen fighters.

    “So from your perspective and experience I would appreciate to know or if you could explain to me in simple terminology the following details.”

    Sure. Basically T/W ratio indicates the amount of power propelling the Aircraft forward. You can say it’s Acceleration. A TWR difference of 0.1 is a LOT of difference. It means you can recover Airspeed losses quickly in a dogfight. So it means you can make tighter turns and climb faster than your opponent. The more tighter your turn, the more airspeed loss you’ll encounter. When you climb, you store potential energy and that is very useful in a Dogfight.

    G limit, is the forces acting on you when you turn your Fighter. 1 G is the gravitational pull of the earth which we feel. Mig-29 can pull 9G’s. It can go even further, but a human body can only withstand upto 9 G’s. The more tighter you turn, the more G’s you get. 2nd Gen fighters can only withstand around 6 G’s. So you can’t make tighter turns. Thus your turn radius will be huge and an aircraft with a lesser turn radius(high G tolerance) will move to your behind and finish you off.

    Lets say if a F-5 dogfights with an F-7. Lets assume G tolerance is 7 for F-5, and F-7′s G limit is 6, and both have similar drag profiles. Since F-5 can pull more G’s, it can make tighter turns than a F-7 and can get behind it. But the problem is its TWR is just 0.58 while that of early model F-7 is 0.68. So the moment you turn with 7 Gs, you’ll lose Airspeed quickly because of low TWR. The moment you lose speed, you’ll only turn slower and experience only 3-4 G’s. Eventhough your fighter can soak up to 7G’s, you won’t be able to utilise it completely. The F-7 on the other hand has more T/W ratio and thus has more speed. So it can utilize 5-6 G’s and turn tighter than you and get to your behind. F-5 is dead!

    If F-5 fights a Mig-29, it is so dead. The 29 outclasses it in both TWR and Gs. Even if Mig has more drag than a F-5, it’s huge TWR advantage eclipses it completely. So the Mig will simple execute a 9g turn, and get to F-5′s behind. F-5 can’t accelerate, can’t out turn, and it can’t even run away since it’s top speed is less than the Mig. This is not even a contest.

    There you go that is the basics of Dogfighting.

    There are also other factors like AoA, Corner velocity, Sustained turn rate. There is no reliable publicly available info regarding Corner velocity and sustained turned rates . But the Angel of Attack figures of Mig-29 is huge. Around 30 degrees.

    In the eyes of Beyond visual range missiles, all the above probably won’t be of any use. But the age of dogfighting is here to say. Also given that fact that African nations only have limited BVR capability, Dogfights are very much here to stay.

  138. “The F-5 is not a second generation fighter, it is third generation. Early versions of the the MiG 21s are second generation though. Your analysis is good but you miss the point. Most of what you have given is theoretical and might not mean much. You will need to look at the practical performances of the various aircraft as well. For instance, during the gulf war the Tornado gave a good account of itself yet from your analysis, it is way below the MiG 29. The F-5 was there as well being used by the Saudis and it did not dissapoint while in the company of the more potent F-18s,F-15s, F-117s, Tornado etc.”

    Strictly speaking, Mig-21 and F-5 Tiger-II is second generation. Some people claim Mig-21late model bis and F-5TigerII as third generation, but that is not right. Mig-23 & mig-27 are the true 3rd gen fighters.

    This is from wiki:
    “The improved second-generation F-5E Tiger II was also primarily used by American Cold War allies and, in limited quantities, served in US military aviation as a training and aggressor aircraft”

    The Allies won the gulf war because of excellent AWACS, JSTARS, BVR missiles and other support aircraft. I don’t think there is Awacs, Jstars and Amraam missles in Kenya’s arsenal. If the Iraqis had all that then they might have put up a good fight. They could not have won because they don’t have many fighters as the allies/coalition.

    In a dogfight scenario which is bound to happen in the African context, those F-5 are sitting ducks. Tornados are very very poor dogfighters. They are primarily bombers.

    “Besides, you will recall that Algeria returned some her MiG 29s to Russia due to dissapointment in them.”
    No. The russians gave them old refurbished Mig-29s and passed them off as new ones. The algerias got pissed off and cancelled the deal.

    “To Mr Fuji

    1. What are these pure interceptor that you have in the list?

    2. what happens when a fighter higher in the list meets a lower ranking fighter. Lets say like in the third world regions where AWACS and like system are not in operational. A one on one combat episode, a basic dog fights something similar to that. What’s your suggestion?

    3. Its true that the jet engines have evolved to better ones.
    So what’s the fate of the f-5 in these modern times. With it’s out dated engines.”
    You can read my previous reply i’ve given an exhausting account of Dogfights. And this reply I’ve talked about absense of AWACS and fights in the context of kenya’s neighborhood.
    Interceptors, well they are just interceptors. They can’t dogfight. They come, launch their missiles from long ranges, and speed away. I’ll give you a detailed reply shortly. I’m AFK for a while.

  139. In view of the recent acquisitions of fourth generation fighters by the neighbours, Kenya must not lag behind. Military planners must take stock of the potential dangers from the north i.e the MiG 29s in Sudan ( and possibly Tanzania ) and the Su 27s in Ethiopia. The purchase of 15 used F-5s from Jordan should act as a stop gap measure as the country seeks more suitable replacements. Possible candidates could be the Jas 39 Gripen, the J-10 or the JF 17 Thunder. These are relatively cheaper than most western versions of similar capability and are thus affordable for a developing country like Kenya.

  140. If you guys are much interested in Fighter jets and military hardware, I could point you to some nice defence forums for beginners. There you can gain knowledge as well as clarify your doubts. Let me know if you are interested.

    Anyway…
    “To Mr Fuji

    1. What are these pure interceptor that you have in the list?”
    These interceptors fighters can’t dogfight. Their job is to intercept enemy fighters and cruise missiles. They have very powerful radars! They can see enemy fighters from 200-300 kms away and launch long range Air to Air missiles. After they have launched their missiles, they’ll come back. These fighters have tremendous speeds. Mig-25 and Mig-31 can reach speeds upto Mach 2.8 and altitudes of 27km. At such speeds, the missiles you launch at them won’t even reach them. The missiles would run out of fuel trying to catch them.

    “2. what happens when a fighter higher in the list meets a lower ranking fighter. Lets say like in the third world regions where AWACS and like system are not in operational. A one on one combat episode, a basic dog fights something similar to that. What’s your suggestion?”
    Please, read my previous reply. i’ve given a detailed account of what happens during a dogfight.

    “3. Its true that the jet engines have evolved to better ones.
    So what’s the fate of the f-5 in these modern times. With it’s out dated engines.””
    Well, it can still dogfight against Mig-21′s and Mig-19′s & F-7s. If the Kenyan pilot is clever to use his fighter to the best, he can win. I just checked some sites, it seem you guys have only 22 F-5′s. That is the only Fighters you have!! That’s shocking. I guess the neighborhood around Kenya must be a peaceful place to have such reduced force levels.

    http://www.milaviapress.com/orbat/kenya/index.php

    If the area is indeed peaceful, I guess F-5 should do just fine. Here in Asia all hell could break loose.. unsolved border disputes to ethnic tensions, it’s all here. China-Taiwan issue, North Korea-South Korea, and India- pakistan zones are hot beds. Since Kenya doesn’t have any border disputes or ethnic tensions, it means no need for very expensive fighters.

    • ANYWAY
      Article #1 pure fighter.

      The MiG-25 was created to intercept the u-2 spy plane. it is also used in aerial combat.
      a. Egypt used it with impunity over the first phase of the arab isreal war.
      b. Syria still use it to fighter off isreal F-16.
      c. During the first gulf war the first combat engagement was between a MiG25 IqaF and a F-18 USN. The F-18 lost.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25

      revise

      • Spend more time in the net before posting your suggestions

      • Ofcourse what you posted is right. Mig-25 is a interceptor. Interceptors are basically fighters.
        The Mig-25′s cannot dogfight. They are not meant to dogfight.

        “Spend more time in the net before posting your suggestions”
        What?

      • But despite this they did win some victories- http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47

        Also like I said, my list doesn’t affect BVR engagements. See how many were killed by Aim-54 and Aim-7. those are BVR missiles.

        I don’t see any F-5 scoring individual hits on Mig-25. Only one is given and it is given as ‘Shared’. F-14 fired the first shot, and F-5 shot second at the already crippled Mig-25. The cannon is obviously a lie. No Mig-25 pilot is dumb enough to get killed by cannon, and that too from a F-5. And that’s why it is given in WHITE. Entries in white are unconfirmed kills.

        The Mig-25 has to fire its missiles after locking from its radar. if the enemy planes fly close to the ground then the radar cannot detect or lock because of ground clutter(radar reflected from the ground). In that scenario, you can bring down a Mig-25 IF IT IS COMING TOWARDS YOU. If you fire missiles, and if the Mig-25 pilot knows there are missiles heading your way and speeds up in the Opposite Direction, then your missiles won’t reach him. it’ll run out of fuel. When a Mig-25 is coming towards a missile, obviously the missile will hit it, provided the Mig-25 is not flying at high altitudes and the missiles are not launched from low altitudes.

    • Article #2
      Based on the list you provided and what you stand for we can arrive at the following hypothesis

      “In a normal dogfight chase the only contended to an F-22 will be the F-15K,
      the F-4 can not challenge a MiG23 or aircrafts above it, the F-5 shouldn’t be able to challenge most fighter in the list , MiG19 can out maneuvered the F-35 and the Mirage III shouldn’t cause harm to most fighter.”

      I think we level on that before I proceeded.

    • Article #2
      Based on the list you provided and what you stand for we can arrive at the following hypothesis

      “In a normal dogfight chase the only contended to an F-22 will be the F-15k,
      the F-4 can not challenge a MiG23 or aircrafts above it, the F-5 shouldn’t be able to challenge most fighter in the list , MiG19 can out maneuvered the F-35 and the Mirage III shouldn’t cause harm to most fighter.”

      I think we level on that before I proceeded.

      Now lets take the First Persian war. a war between iran vs iraq. Both oil rich with strong economies to eliminate any unnecessary. No AWACS or air support systems of the sort. The IraF composed of mainly American fighter under an arms embargo due to the ousting of the Shan regime. Lets see how they faired

      the F-4 from IriaF shoot down almost all Mig23 it encountered, while the MiG23 ranks above F-4 in you list .
      the IriaF F-5 brought down several IqaF MiG-25 “Pure Interceptors” and MiG-21 among other. you earlier stated the MiG-25 should be able to climb and run away from missile and other aircrafts. in one incident a Major Yadollah Javadpour piloting a F-5 brought down a MiG-25 using his canons. What am trying to imply this was a basic air to air combat maneuver. your list should have come into effect .evasive maneuvers, tight turn climbs, dive and maneuvers of similar fashions.

      In short what ever the losses were the result don’t reflect your list and suggestion.
      what your whats your take on this.

      http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=47

      • Not necessarily. My scenario has one basic assumption, that is the pilots are trained equally well on both sides. if you place a very poor pilot in a F-22 and ask him to dogfight a superb pilot in a Mig-29, obviously the pilot in the Mig will win.

        Also the Mig-23 is an Mig-23 MLD. The TWR of mig-23MF is less than that of F-4e. It’s 0.91.

        And more the TWR difference, the more disadvantage you are in. But remember, the above TWR is made taken into account similar weights on fighters… that is 3505 kgs load. If a F-5 only carries 1700 fuel and weapons compared to a Mig-23 or F-7 with carries 3505 kgs or 5000 kgs, then your TWR will be higher, and theirs lower. The above TWR list is an unbiased list meant to compare the fighters.

        Regarding persian war, like Is said before regarding pilot training-

        “In addition to a superior air fleet, Iranian pilots were better trained. The Iranian air force adhered to NATO flight training time requirements for combat pilots, whereas at the outbreak of war Iraqi pilots had “limited hours of flying time”.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Air_Force_in_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

        But despite this they did..

      • (sorry I posted this in article 1. Reposting.)

        But despite this they did win some victories- http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47

        Also like I said, my list doesn’t affect BVR engagements. See how many were killed by Aim-54 and Aim-7. those are BVR missiles.

        I don’t see any F-5 scoring individual hits on Mig-25. Only one is given and it is given as ‘Shared’. F-14 fired the first shot, and F-5 shot second at the already crippled Mig-25. The cannon is obviously a lie. No Mig-25 pilot is dumb enough to get killed by cannon, and that too from a F-5. And that’s why it is given in WHITE. Entries in white are unconfirmed kills.

        The Mig-25 has to fire its missiles after locking from its radar. if the enemy planes fly close to the ground then the radar cannot detect or lock because of ground clutter(radar reflected from the ground). In that scenario, you can bring down a Mig-25 IF IT IS COMING TOWARDS YOU. If you fire missiles, and if the Mig-25 pilot knows there are missiles heading your way and speeds up in the Opposite Direction, then your missiles won’t reach him. it’ll run out of fuel. When a Mig-25 is coming towards a missile, obviously the missile will hit it, provided the Mig-25 is not flying at high altitudes and the missiles are not launched from low altitudes.

      • i think you have made it waste no you self now. we are not disputing the out comes of the iran-iraq war. but list that you claim will be the key factor for dogfight as you put it. the MiG21 Iran air force brought down F-4e IqaF. the MiG21 is much lower in you list compared to the F-4E not so? so again you list is not the yard stick of dogfight performance.

    • Article #3
      The numbers of fighters we have are based on own potential threats and budgets constraints.
      Back to our topic of discussion.

      You claim that an F-5 is good for nothing with out dated engines that can propel it in a dogfight. The F-5 rolled out as a F-5A/B Tiger. It proved it’s self and was revised by the manufacturer to a Tiger II F-5E/F. at the current moment it being upgraded by individual air force based on there needs to a Tiger III .The upgrading is being done by well to do country let alone third world nation.

      tell me why most nation are rapidly modernizing the F-5E.

      • F-5 can be upgraded to become a good BVR fighter, and with latest advances in missiles, even in dogfights you can win provided you have Aim-9 missiles. But if the opponent has similar capability, but if he has better engines and has more power, he has better chances of evading those missiles than the F-5 which is underpowered. ofcourse liek I said, it also depends on many many many factors. It that moment you TWR may be higher because you may only be carrying 2 missles and 1000 kgs of fuel while you opponent may be carrying a lot of load. You pilot may be better trained than the other. but in a similar comparison, or in other words, a pure Aircraft to aircraft comparison, F-5 is very underpowered with ancient engines.

        Regarding Mig-25, Here you go, this is from wiki-

        “In yet another incident, two MiG-25s approached a pair of F-15s, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then outran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the MiG-25s, though none reached them.[27] According to the same sources, at least one F-111 was also forced to abort its mission by a MiG-25 on the first 24 hours of hostilities, during an air raid over Tikrit.”

        Evading 10 air to air missiles, that is what I was talking about. Remember those are advanced missiles.

        Also, in order to evade a missile, you can just out run it, or turn 90 degrees from the missile flight path. if you take a missile head on, most probably the missile will get you no matter how fast you are.

    • Mr Fuji
      Kindly answer the article #1, #2, #3 posted in a fresh post below, before proceeding into other interesting topics or we shall find ourselves running around in meaningless circles and posting unorderly data thanks for you time.

  141. “In view of the recent acquisitions of fourth generation fighters by the neighbours, Kenya must not lag behind. Military planners must take stock of the potential dangers from the north i.e the MiG 29s in Sudan ( and possibly Tanzania ) and the Su 27s in Ethiopia. The purchase of 15 used F-5s from Jordan should act as a stop gap measure as the country seeks more suitable replacements. Possible candidates could be the Jas 39 Gripen, the J-10 or the JF 17 Thunder. These are relatively cheaper than most western versions of similar capability and are thus affordable for a developing country like Kenya.”
    If Kenya doesn’t have any major disputes with its neighbours, then f-5 should do just fine. but if someone does attacks kenya, then F-5 won’t stand much of a chance. but what are the chances of that happening? When was the last war kenya fought?
    If you are looking for very high end fourth generation fighters, then Buy Su-35BM. it is very costly(65 million).. but other fighters which is equal to it is more costlier. Rafale, Eurofighter, F-15K etc are equal to Su-35bm but more costlier than it. Su-35 Bm can dogfight, can launch BVR missiles, can act as a bomber, can act as an interceptor, it’s an all in plane.
    But if Su-35bm is too costly then buying a cheap BVR fighter with somewhat reasonable dogfighting capabilities is the best way forward. JF-17 is a wonderful candidate. It costs anywhere between 15-20 million a piece and can launch BVR missiles. However if the BVR(beyond visual range) missiles fails and if it gets into a dogfight with a Mig-29 or a Su-27, then it’s dead. But it can dogfight and win if the opponent is a F-7, Mig-21 or a Mig-19. It would be an equal match for earlier versions of Mig-23. Ofcourse this is only for dogfights. If the BVR missile is a top class missile, then you won’t even get to Dogfight. BVR missile ranges are between 10km to 70km. If the distance between the fighters is less than 10 km then it’s the realm of dogfights.

  142. Basically there are several types of fighters:

    1: Dogfighters-
    Eg:
    Top dogfighters: Mig-29M, Su-27, F-15C & K, Rafale, Eurofighter, Su-30, Su-35BM, F-22, etc.. etc..

    Medium dogfighters: F-16(all versions), F/A-18E/F, F-35, Mig-23, J-10, gripen NG, .. etc etc..

    Ok dogfighters: Mig-19, Mig-21, F-5, F-7, F-6, JF-17, Mirage etc etc.

    -

    2: BVR fighters:
    Top BVR fighters: F-22 raptor, F-35, Su-35BM, Su-30, Eurofighter, rafale, Gripen NG, F-15K, F-16block 60, F/A-18E/F, Mig-29(Aesa) etc etc..

    Medium BVR fighters: Mig-29, Su-27, F-16C, F-15C, J-10 etc etc.

    ok BVR fighters: Mig-21 Bison(latest indian version), JF-17, F-5(if it carries BVR missiles).

    -

    3: Bombers/Strike Aircraft:
    Top fighter Bombers: F-35, F-16 block 60, Su-35BM, rafale, Su-30, F/A-18E/F etc etc..
    F-22 and eurofighter can drop bombs as well, but they will be primarily used as a BVR & Dog fighter.

    Medium fighter Bombers: F-16 Block 50,40,30 , Su-27 multirole versions, Mig-29 multirole versions, F-15E, Tornado etc etc..

    Ok fighter bombers: Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27, Su-24, JF-17, F-5, F-7 etc etc.

    -

    4: Close air support Fighter:

    Top: A-10, Su-39

    Medium end: Su-25, Mig-27, Tornado

    OK close air support aircraft: Mig-21, mig-19, A-5 fantan, F-7

    -

    5: Interceptors:
    High end: Mig-31, Mig-25

    Medium end: F-15, F-22, Su-27, Su-30, Su-35bm

    Ok interceptors: Mig-21, Mig-23, Mirage, Mig-29, F-16, J-8, F-7 etc etc

    -

    6: High speed armed recon(not much use these days)
    Mig-25, Mig-31

  143. Mr Fuji
    On your article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm you claimed in not so many words that your Thrust/weight ratio was the Gospel of dog fighting. You went further to elaborate the issue in detail with regards to the F-5 vs F-7

    I have posted episode that don,t reflect your thoughts and index and now It seem you have better suggestions called “many many many other factors, including the pilots”

    1, so I ask you would like to take back your words and reconsider the postings you made on this date?

    2. you claimed not to be a lay man, and promised me sincerely and offer to post “ defense forums for beginner ” to enhance this blog.. it now seem that you are avoiding questions I earlier asked. Unless you wanted to dictate to me on the issue, I was meant to believe it was going to be a 2way traffic conversation. Again I could be wrong.

    I asked simple questions in article #1 #2 #3 which you haven,t replay.
    So again I will ask you whats your take on the articles with regards to your list?
    P/s
    The MiG-21 is regarded as an interceptor and yet it has be used in many Dogfights

  144. “””On your article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm you claimed in not so many words that your Thrust/weight ratio was the Gospel of dog fighting. You went further to elaborate the issue in detail with regards to the F-5 vs F-7″””

    Never did I say that the F-7 vs F-5 scenario was the gospel. Quote me where I said gospel. Infact I even said BVR combat is different from Dogfights.

    “””I have posted episode that don,t reflect your thoughts and index and now It seem you have better suggestions called “many many many other factors, including the pilots

    2. you claimed not to be a lay man, and promised me sincerely and offer to post “ defense forums for beginner ” to enhance this blog.. it now seem that you are avoiding questions I earlier asked. Unless you wanted to dictate to me on the issue, I was meant to believe it was going to be a 2way traffic conversation. Again I could be wrong.

    I asked simple questions in article #1 #2 #3 which you haven,t replay.
    So again I will ask you whats your take on the articles with regards to your list?
    P/s””

    I have already replied to your post concerning the cannons. But that post it says
    “Fuji, on September 27th, 2009 at 10:05 pm Said: Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

    The comment is awaiting moderation. I have split my post into 2 and posted it again.

    The many many factors in Dogfights other than T/W ratio include Pilot training, pilot psychology, Morale, advanced dogfighting missiles, fuel & weapons load, altitude of engagement.

    I have replied to all you queries/articles.

    “””1, so I ask you would like to take back your words and reconsider the postings you made on this date?”””
    Why? F-5 is a junk plane. Just because F-5′s pilot is superior and he has better missiles & radar doesn’t mean his plane is good. In an UNBIASED flight performance parameters comparison, F-5 is terrible.
    You can win a war if you have good disciplined high morale pilot and advanced missiles inside a junk plane.

    “””The MiG-21 is regarded as an interceptor and yet it has be used in many Dogfights”””
    Yes, it can dogfight as well as intercept. For intercept you need top speed and Mig-21 gives you that. It’s top speed is Mach 2.2. F-5′s top speed is just mach 1.6.

  145. “””The MiG-21 is regarded as an interceptor and yet it has be used in many Dogfights”””
    Yes, it can dogfight as well as intercept. For intercept one of the basic things you need is top speed and Mig-21 gives you that. It’s top speed is Mach 2.2. F-5’s top speed is just mach 1.6.

  146. I will give you the benefit of doubt with regards to the iran-iraq war . some BVR missile where used. But if you narrow down the search to the use of the AIM-9 missile (a dog fighting missile) you will find that your list doesn’t tally too.
    The Iranian pilots were trained to N.A.T.O standards and this was one of the attributes that contributed to that result. The same attribute is seen in the below data between PaK vs IaF. Similar economy and military readiness. But the Pakistanis had more hours with there F-6 (Chinese MiG-19) and manage to bring down several india fighter which had good T/W ratio. No BVR missile used. pure dogfight.
    The Mirage III which is suppose to be a lame in you artical proved it self

    http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47

    between 23Oct73 to 10may86

  147. I think by now you have realized that the T/W ratio is just an indictor but not the whole truth as you claimed in you article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    can form a new hypotheses?

    “The thrust to weight ratio is not the Bible of Dog fighting but a figure of merit. It’s good in marketing the performance of aircrafts. In dog fighting the phase “it depends on” contributes a lot to the out come of the fight”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio

    Any correction you would like to make?

  148. So what you take on F-5 upgrading ? you claim it not to be a good dogfighter based upon you list.

    If you can transform any junk into a modern fighter why are countries mainly doing it to the F-5? There many good relics laying about like f-14, mirage f1 etc. Air forces are going to the extent of buying used F-5 from other air forces and upgrading them. I feel it’s because it has stood to the test of time, proved itself worth and has a place in today’s battles.

  149. “””i think you have made it waste no you self now. we are not disputing the out comes of the iran-iraq war. but list that you claim will be the key factor for dogfight as you put it. the MiG21 Iran air force brought down F-4e IqaF. the MiG21 is much lower in you list compared to the F-4E not so? so again you list is not the yard stick of dogfight performance.”””

    Like I said, it also depends on pilot factor. Maybe that particular Iraqi pilot was better. Also, Mig-21′s engine can give you emergency thrust for 3 minutes!!! In that emergency thrust of 21829 lbf, it can generate TWR of 1.12 under a load of 7729 lb. If the dogfight took place under 3 mins it would have the advantage. If the fight drags longer the Mig-21 losses that advantage.

    “””The article on the MiG21 as an Inteceptor I was just implying that interceptor do Dogfight.”””
    Yes, interceptors do dogfight, that’s why Mig-21 is clubbed together with the rest of the fighters… while Mig-25 & Mig-31 are given separately. they can’t dogfight.

    “””I will give you the benefit of doubt with regards to the iran-iraq war . some BVR missile where used. But if you narrow down the search to the use of the AIM-9 missile (a dog fighting missile) you will find that your list doesn’t tally too.”””
    Aim-9 missile is better than russian missiles. But despite that fact, count how many Mig-21′s killed F-5e and how many F-5 killed Mig-21. The tally of Mig-21 killing F-5 is much more.

    “””The Iranian pilots were trained to N.A.T.O standards and this was one of the attributes that contributed to that result. The same attribute is seen in the below data between PaK vs IaF. Similar economy and military readiness. But the Pakistanis had more hours with there F-6 (Chinese MiG-19) and manage to bring down several india fighter which had good T/W ratio. No BVR missile used. pure dogfight.
    The Mirage III which is suppose to be a lame in you artical proved it self”””
    Where is it good? The planes there Hunter, Su-7 etc were primarily used by the IAF as bomber/ground support aircraft. So i doubt the pilots had enough dogfighting training, and most of them were brought down during attack runs. But check out how many F-86 brought down gnats and how many gnats brought down & damaged(purple) F-86. Gnats have a higher T/W ratio than F-86, and were used primarily as dogfighters by the IAF, and F-86 as dogfighters by the PAF. Infact if you notice, most of the kills were done by Aim-9 missiles on gnats by the pakistanis, but all, I mean, ALL the kills made by gnats were done by cannon. That is because Gnats can’t even fire missiles, it has only guns as it’s weapon. But it has more kills and damages.

    “””I think by now you have realized that the T/W ratio is just an indictor but not the whole truth as you claimed in you article posted on September 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    can form a new hypotheses?”””
    Read my previous paragraph.
    And you’re still ignoring my point. In an environment where pilot training and weapons are equal, TWR plays a big role. In an environment where pilot training and TWR are equal, weapons play a key role. In an environment where twr and weapons are equal, pilot training plays a big role. TWR is an important element of Air combat, or.. let put it this way… do you think the U.S and the Russians are fools to design better and better powerful engines with each passing day?
    Why do you think the latest fighters are ALL in the top 10 in the TWR chart? Because the Americans, Russians and Europeans are idiots?

    “””So what you take on F-5 upgrading ? you claim it not to be a good dogfighter based upon you list.

    If you can transform any junk into a modern fighter why are countries mainly doing it to the F-5? There many good relics laying about like f-14, mirage f1 etc. Air forces are going to the extent of buying used F-5 from other air forces and upgrading them. I feel it’s because it has stood to the test of time, proved itself worth and has a place in today’s battles.”””
    For poor countries, F-5 is all they can afford. it’s cheaper to upgrade F-5 than buying new fighters.
    For middle-economy countries, the 4th generation fighters are costly and can’t be procured in numbers. So they upgrade their old F-5 to maintain their force levels.
    For rich countries, they are only used as trainers and light attack craft.
    Or any country regardless of economic situation would have them because there isn’t any immediate threat from neighbors and spending money on costly military equipment is just not necessary.
    And America has retired their F-14, so there is very less support. Also F-14 is costlier to maintain than a F-5 for training purposes.
    And Mirage F-1 is still being used by the french.

  150. Oh.. I just saw you mentioned TWR as a marketing thing. Just so you know, the Americans are not Marketing their F-22. They are not selling that stuff to even nato members, only their very very very close allies like Japan and few others.
    Even F-15 was only offered for nato and its allies. People other than U.S allies can only get F-16 & F-18. F-15 is not for sale to them.

    • Latest fighter will be up in the T/W ratio. its not an idiotic gesture. These are new technology and better improved or upgraded engines performances. The F-22 has displayed many of its specifications and surely this are not meant for marketing purposes but for informative data bases.

  151. you are stating the obvious.ofcourse the americans will not sell f22 since thats one of the latest fighters they possess.its like saying south africa is not in north africa.ofcouse we know that!

  152. Mr fuji I am not disputing that the F-5 can not de brought down in a dogfight. The ball of contention is :
    1. the list you posted being a yard stick in dog fights. Your rule of thumb was fighter in the lower scales should be able to bring harm to fighter in the high scale in dogfighter. This clearly not true. My suggestion was the fight can be won both ways in the scale. You believed that it can only be won as you ascend the TWR scale. That is why I posted the Iran-Iraq war and the Paki India war. I was not interested in the out comes of the two but how lower T/W ratio birds performed. Prevailing conditions play a lot on the out comes of simple dog fighting. Whats so ever the manufacturing date of the fighter is and its index in T/W scale. “It depends on” should be taken into consideration. Am I clear?

    2. the position of the F-5 in todays airfoce and as you claimed on September 25th, 2009 at 8:37 pm the F-5 should be rule out in combat and is good in dogfight with old fighter of its kind.. this is again not true. The F-5 has brought down stronger more powerful and advance in technology then itself. Like the MiG-25

  153. I believe you have now read the websites I posted on F-5 vs MiG25. and have found out its not a fairy tale story but I reality the Lame Mirage III in the Indo-Paki, scored its hit on 10may86. In the indo-Paki I specifically single out the following span of time 23Oct73 to 10may86. here the f-6, MiG21 and the Mirage III a low TWR performance on fighter higher in your list at this time and not against Hunter, Su-7.

  154. In history they are always marvel of engineering that prove to be more the what the manufacture thought it would be . and the f-5 has been one.
    The F-5 is one few fighter that when upgrade can give a punch as good as a 4th generation fighter. It will BVR and dogfight in comfort. The on limits comes to the hours of its frame (age) against how much investment you would like to put in into it. Simple economics.
    Its not only poor nations that have acknowledged and upgraded it. let me take the two countries as examples for the sake of time and space.

    America
    F-5N is an upgrade of the F-5 used by the US military. They use the fighter as an AGGRESSOR SQUADRONS in dogfight simulation. Former members of the squadron include the F-14 and A-4 all now retired while the F-5 was upgraded and is still in use. Now I don,t think a super power would like to lie to its self and dog fight its pilots agaist an inadequate fighter. This Instructors will fly the F-5 and the students would come in F-16 e.t.c the F-5 is one of the fewer fighter the US can contemplate to buy used/secondhand from other countries and air forces to integrate into its airforce system.

    Russia
    Russia to has acknowledge the fighter. They have used it against many of there fighters and admitted indeed the F-5 is better then they expected. They used the feature and performance of the F-5 as blueprint for the production 4th Generation fighters.

    • In addition just look at the countries in Asia ( where Fuji comes from) that still have the F-5. Fuji told us that Asia is among the world’s trouble spots and that you will be toast if you do not posses a strong airforce. Why then do countries here still fly the suppossedly ‘junk F-5 ?’ some like Taiwan have a huge inventory of F-5s facing a more potent China, are they in a hopeless situation?
      Asian countries that still fly the F-5 include, Taiwan, Turkey, Jordan,Singapore,Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and South Korea. Just also look at potential adversaries for these nations.
      Mr Fuji is not telling us the whole truth.

      • None of these countries have F-5 as their main fighter, now why is that? To say specifically, Taiwan is in a bad situation, the U.S will only sell stuff to keep the balance of power. If you follow Taiwan-China drama, the U.S doesn’t even allow taiwan to have their BVR missile, which the taiwanese paid for, and keep them in the U.S. U.S will only sell when china tips the balance of power. The reasoning is the U.S wants to have status quo… if taiwan gets advanced weapons, they might declare independence, but when china gets more weapons they might invade. Infact the Taiwanese were screaming when china procured Su-27s and Su-30′s, and thats why the BVR missile was allowed to be sold. And besides, the US navy would be the one fighting the chinese as all the taiwanese airfiends will be bomb by around a 1000 ballistic and cruise missiles and their airforce grounded anyway. The chinese vigorously oppose military sales to that island, so only the U.S has guts to sell them stuff. The french who had earlier supplied them Mirages are now refusing to sell them more arms. Because of such restrictions, the taiwanese are arming themselves with their homegrown fighter plane F-CK.

        The rest of the countries, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and South Korea are all also U.S allies. A war with them means a war with the U.S. If these guys were alone without the ever powerful USAF & USN backing, they would have scrapped their F-5′s long aso and would have gone for latest planes.
        There is no chance of any immediate war between Singapore & Malaysia.

    • “””Latest fighter will be up in the T/W ratio. its not an idiotic gesture. These are new technology and better improved or upgraded engines performances. The F-22 has displayed many of its specifications and surely this are not meant for marketing purposes but for informative data bases.”””
      Yes.

      “””Mr fuji I am not disputing that the F-5 can not de brought down in a dogfight. The ball of contention is :
      1. the list you posted being a yard stick in dog fights. Your rule of thumb was fighter in the lower scales should be able to bring harm to fighter in the high scale in dogfighter. This clearly not true. My suggestion was the fight can be won both ways in the scale. You believed that it can only be won as you ascend the TWR scale. That is why I posted the Iran-Iraq war and the Paki India war. I was not interested in the out comes of the two but how lower T/W ratio birds performed. Prevailing conditions play a lot on the out comes of simple dog fighting. Whats so ever the manufacturing date of the fighter is and its index in T/W scale. “It depends on” should be taken into consideration. Am I clear?”””
      I never said dogfights depends on ONLY TWR and fighters above can NEVER be brought down. But TWR is a VERY important element of dogfight. And subsequently I highlighted how TWR is useful while dogfighting by posting a scenario using F-5 vs F-7, both piloted by equally skilled pilots.
      A pilot is a human, and a missile is an addon. But TWR is an ATTRIBUTE of an Fighter Aircraft. That’s why I was saying F-5 is junk and endorsing the blog’s title ‘junk fighter jet’s’.
      You saw how many F-5 were shot down by Mig-21, didn’t you? F-5s can shoot down Mig-21s, but Mig-21s can shoot down more F-5s. If “it depends on” is so much relevant then why are more kills by Mig2,1even though Mig21has inferior missiles and inferior pilots? That goes to show how much relevant TWR is. Would you risk your pilots lives knowing they are flying inferior low TWR aircrafts? I know I wouldn’t.

      “””2. the position of the F-5 in todays airfoce and as you claimed on September 25th, 2009 at 8:37 pm the F-5 should be rule out in combat and is good in dogfight with old fighter of its kind.. this is again not true. The F-5 has brought down stronger more powerful and advance in technology then itself. Like the MiG-25″””
      That is not true. The mig-25 was already heavily damaged by the long range BVR missile fired by the F-14. it was limping around when F-5 took opportunity and fired it’s Aim-9 at the crippled Mig-25. See the link which you yourself posted. It says “Shared” kill. And the other is obviously a lie. You cannot bring down a Mig-25 by cannon, that too from a f-5, which is why that entry is in White, which means not confirmed.

      “””reality the Lame Mirage III in the Indo-Paki, scored its hit on 10may86. In the indo-Paki I specifically single out the following span of time 23Oct73 to 10may86. here the f-6, MiG21 and the Mirage III a low TWR performance on fighter higher in your list at this time and not against Hunter, Su-7.”””
      The Mig-21s were used in a bomber role. During the Afghan invasion, the DRAAF and VVS(afghan & soviet AF) used to violated Pak airspace and bomb Mujahedeen camps inside Pakistan. Pakistan used to pick at those bombing missions by deploying their dogfighting squadrons.
      But if you look at Mirage during indo-pak war. Mirage didn’t even bring down a single IAF Mig-21. But poor gnats were the victims. And Gnats, has a high TWR than F-86 but lower twr than Mirages. Mirages shot down more gnats, than viceversa.

      “””In history they are always marvel of engineering that prove to be more the what the manufacture thought it would be . and the f-5 has been one.
      The F-5 is one few fighter that when upgrade can give a punch as good as a 4th generation fighter. It will BVR and dogfight in comfort. The on limits comes to the hours of its frame (age) against how much investment you would like to put in into it. Simple economics.”””
      A manufacturer will always say good things about his plane. But at the end it is still inferior to a Mig-21.
      BTW, Can Kenyan F-5 fire BVR missiles? My guess is it cant.

      “””F-5N is an upgrade of the F-5 used by the US military. They use the fighter as an AGGRESSOR SQUADRONS in dogfight simulation. Former members of the squadron include the F-14 and A-4 all now retired while the F-5 was upgraded and is still in use. Now I don,t think a super power would like to lie to its self and dog fight its pilots agaist an inadequate fighter. This Instructors will fly the F-5 and the students would come in F-16 e.t.c the F-5 is one of the fewer fighter the US can contemplate to buy used/secondhand from other countries and air forces to integrate into its airforce system.”””
      That is why it is in an aggressor squadron. Aggressor squadron use older jets and new ones.
      Here you go, this is from wikipedia:
      “While aircraft used for the aggressor role are usually older jet fighters, this has not always been the case. During the mid-1980s, the US Navy determined that the A-4s and F-5s flown at Top Gun were not adequate in simulating the air-to-air capabilities of the newest Russian fighters such as the MiG-29 and Su27.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressor_squadron

      The U.S themselves are saying F-5 is old & inferior. What more do you want?

      “”””””Russia to has acknowledge the fighter. They have used it against many of there fighters and admitted indeed the F-5 is better then they expected. They used the feature and performance of the F-5 as blueprint for the production 4th Generation fighters.”””
      Russians building fourth generation fighter by copying F-5? That is so not true.

  155. nairobi chronicle i have a problem. i have posted two posting one 2 days back begining with…The F-5 did indeed shoot down …………………….and the other yesterday title the “Rate of climb” the article are waiting moderation. please realise them.

    • posting dates and time

      September 29th, 2009 at 11:01 am

      September 29th, 2009 at 10:43 am

      September 29th, 2009 at 8:23 am Said:

  156. I went thought the website you posted and it clear states the position of the aircraft used in those squadrons. I quote from the second paragraph “US aggressor squadrons fly light and extremely agile strike fighters……..” does this statment jog your mind with regards to the caliber of the aircraft used? poor performance fighter? What are you taking about? what you saying is just part of the story. The American quoted the F-5 as not adequate (not sufficient) and not inferior (poor quality) as you state in your posting. ok?. very different in meanings. This again this was in mid 80,s and the F-5 in question was F-5E to perform simulations of newly rolled out 4th generation fighters the F-16, Su-27 and MiG29.. Bear in mind what I had earlier said the Russia using the F-5E as a seed for there 4th generation fighters. Its obvious the Russia planes would come better. An upgrade version of the F-5E the F-20 which is simply an F-5G was offered which was as competitive as the new 4th generation in the market.

  157. Most instructors favored the F-20

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark

    over the F-16 (all in the website of Aggressor squadron) but lost only due to its prices tag. an upgraded F-5 competing with a new 4th generation fighter the F-16. the upgrade gets a thumbs up but failed due to its price tag. Do you get it?
    .
    The new F-16 designated as F-16N couldn,t coupe with the stress of continuous Dogfight and were grounded by 1992. (3rd paragraph last lines of the aggressor squadron website) the same stress the F-5 were enduring.

  158. By the time a possible attack from the Soviet had died the USSR had collapled, and the F-18 was adequate and existed in offer. The tactics of TOPGUN school changed to ground attack

    The integrity of the TOPGUN school with regards to dogfighting started depreciating and in 2003 american revives its F-5 and upgraded them to F-5N. out of all the aircrafts the TOPGUN used F-14, Kfir, A-4 e.t.c it goes back to search and procure second hand F-5 from foreign airforces, upgrade them and intergrated into there systems. the first time in history for the Americans military. the F-5N is now being replace by the F-15. this is a super power and the quality in training of its fighter pilots matter a lot. The fighters and materials use for this duty and simulations are the most respected by it pilots. Does this action ring a bell?

  159. the Iranian F-5 were victims of its regime and
    Attrition hard cropped in due to Irans fall out with the Americans . this is therefore not a scenario we can use to judge the F-5 performance. I was merely suggested the incident to discredit your TWR list which it did. Now your changing the story to the performance of the F-5 on that war. for vanity sake here are fair performances of the F-5

    http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/ethiopia-1977-1978.html

  160. “””I went thought the website you posted and it clear states the position of the aircraft used in those squadrons. I quote from the second paragraph “US aggressor squadrons fly light and extremely agile strike fighters……..” does this statment jog your mind with regards to the caliber of the aircraft used? poor performance fighter? What are you taking about? what you saying is just part of the story. The American quoted the F-5 as not adequate (not sufficient) and not inferior (poor quality) as you state in your posting. ok?. very different in meanings. This again this was in mid 80,s and the F-5 in question was F-5E to perform simulations of newly rolled out 4th generation fighters the F-16, Su-27 and MiG29.. Bear in mind what I had earlier said the Russia using the F-5E as a seed for there 4th generation fighters. Its obvious the Russia planes would come better. An upgrade version of the F-5E the F-20 which is simply an F-5G was offered which was as competitive as the new 4th generation in the market.”””
    What are you saying? It says clearly “the US Navy determined that the A-4s and F-5s flown at Top Gun were not adequate in simulating the air-to-air capabilities of the newest Russian fighters such as the MiG-29 and Su27.”
    It is “not adequate in simulating” Mig-29 & Su-27, which means it’s Air to Air/Dogfighting capabilities is so inferior that you can’t simulate their behavior.
    Ofcourse it is agile(even Mig-15 was agile), but not agile enough for Mig-29 and su-27s which are more agile. Which is why f-5′s simulation of m29 & s27 is inadequate.

    “””Most instructors favored the F-20

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark

    over the F-16 (all in the website of Aggressor squadron) but lost only due to its prices tag. an upgraded F-5 competing with a new 4th generation fighter the F-16. the upgrade gets a thumbs up but failed due to its price tag. Do you get it?
    .
    The new F-16 designated as F-16N couldn,t coupe with the stress of continuous Dogfight and were grounded by 1992. (3rd paragraph last lines of the aggressor squadron website) the same stress the F-5 were enduring.””””

    Ofcourse, the F-5 engines were so shitty and outdated, they were asking for F-20 which has a better engine.
    This is from your own link:
    “The F-20 Tigershark (initially F-5G) was a privately financed light fighter, designed and built by Northrop. Its development began in 1975 as a further evolution of Northrop’s F-5E Tiger II, featuring a new engine that greatly improved overall performance,”
    “Greatly improved overall performance”, got that?

    “””By the time a possible attack from the Soviet had died the USSR had collapled, and the F-18 was adequate and existed in offer. The tactics of TOPGUN school changed to ground attack

    The integrity of the TOPGUN school with regards to dogfighting started depreciating and in 2003 american revives its F-5 and upgraded them to F-5N. out of all the aircrafts the TOPGUN used F-14, Kfir, A-4 e.t.c it goes back to search and procure second hand F-5 from foreign airforces, upgrade them and intergrated into there systems. the first time in history for the Americans military. the F-5N is now being replace by the F-15. this is a super power and the quality in training of its fighter pilots matter a lot. The fighters and materials use for this duty and simulations are the most respected by it pilots. Does this action ring a bell?”””
    Where does it say it has depreciated? It only says in addition to Air-Air, it now also has Air-Ground.
    They were probably procured to simulate F-7′s still used by china. Also F-5s are cheap to main than other fighters.

    “””the Iranian F-5 were victims of its regime and
    Attrition hard cropped in due to Irans fall out with the Americans . this is therefore not a scenario we can use to judge the F-5 performance. I was merely suggested the incident to discredit your TWR list which it did. Now your changing the story to the performance of the F-5 on that war. for vanity sake here are fair performances of the F-5″””
    lol… Where did it discredit? F-5 was shot down much much more by the Mig-21. And Similar to F-5, F-14s were also in a disadvantage because of the new Iranian regime. But see how many kills F-14s made on Mig-21s and other fighters including the Mig-25.
    Infact in the ethiopian war, Ethiopians had superior support than the somalis, like AWACS type Radar on the ground. Thus they had the advantage, like F-5s had during the Gulf war. This is from your own link:
    “The tactics used by Ethiopian Air Force was to dispatch F-5As for attack missions. The planes climb to 30,000 feet to be seen by Somali radar. SAC (Somali Air Corps) mainly operated either from Hargeisa (main operational base) and Baidoa for the Southern part. As soon as the F-5As are seen by Somali radar, SAC dispatches MIGs for interception. As soon as the MIGs take off, Ethiopia’s American supplied radar, which was superior to what the Somali’s had, at Karamara detects the MIGs and F-5E take off from Dire Dawa for interception. The F-5E flew with their radars on with low output led by ground controllers until they got closer at which time they fully lit their radar. All aircraft were hit by Sidewinders (AIM-9)”

    The Early warning AWACS type radar at Karamara did the crucial work, like it did for the Coalition during the Gulf war. There was no dogfight, only ambush.
    The only unbiased Air to Air dogfights took place during the Iran-Iraq war. Actually, it’s not unbiased because Iraq, despite having inferior missiles, inferior pilots, low numbers of fighters, shot down a hellva lot more F-5′s than viceversa.

  161. Its clear now that your arguments were for argument sake.You are Ill-informed.

  162. a new released acig article also mentions it

    http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_247.shtml

    scroll down to the heading title
    “Short History of MiG-25 in service with the Iraqi Air Force, since 1980”
    and read its third paragraph.
    MiG was flown by a Top IqaF Ace.
    This why until today the Iranians have modified and are still using the F-5.

  163. Fuji, on September 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm Said:
    ………………… And the other is obviously a lie. You cannot bring down a Mig-25 by cannon, that too from a f-5, which is why that entry is in White, which means not confirmed

  164. Fuji, on September 30th, 2009 at 3:48 pm Said
    The F-5E flew with their radars on with low output led by ground controllers until they got closer at which time they fully lit their radar. All aircraft were hit by Sidewinders (AIM-9)”
    The Early warning AWACS type radar at Karamara did the crucial work, like it did for the Coalition during the Gulf war. There was no dogfight, only ambush

    like AWACS type Radar on the ground. Thus they had the advantage, like F-5s had during the Gulf war. This is from your own link:
    “The tactics used by Ethiopian Air Force was to dispatch F-5As for attack missions. The planes climb to 30,000 feet to be seen by Somali radar

    1. both airforces had radars that could see their enemies . No advantages or disadvantages. One set was used more tactfully then the other.
    2. Sidewinder are infrared missile it has to be fired at the fighters rear. This is a Dogfight. Therefore the MiG,s were killed in dogfights. No BVR.
    3. there was no AWACS technology in between Ethiopia and Somalia. This where Air surveillance radars especial during this time. Vectoring a fighter by ground radar is not AWACS AWACS = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Warning_and_Control_System
    4. the eliment of ambush wasn,t always present. Two F-5 attacked 4 Mig21.the first two might be ambushed but after the other two MiGs were aware of what was going on.
    .
    Ofcourse, the F-5 engines were so shitty and outdated, they were asking for F-20 which has a better engine.
    This is from your own link:
    “The F-20 Tigershark (initially F-5G) was a privately financed light fighter, designed and built by Northrop. Its development began in 1975 as a further evolution of Northrop’s F-5E Tiger II, featuring a new engine that greatly improved overall performance,”
    “Greatly improved overall performance”, got that?
    All upgrades come with improved features including engines atimes. Have you ever see an upgrade with feature below it? The TOPGUN instructors wanted a 4th generation fighter simulator. Do you even know features of a . 4th generation fighter Read through :innovative technologies introduced in fourth-generation fighters include “look-down/shoot-down” capability, head-up displays (HUD), “hands on throttle-and-stick” (HOTAS) controls, and multi-function displays (MFD), Infrared search-and-track (IRST) and atimes Composite materials in the form of bonded aluminum honeycomb structural elements and graphite epoxy laminate among others. Not crappy engines as you say. This are the upgrades that have been done to the new F-5

  165. The aggressor squadrons
    Selection of pilots to fight the aggressor squadron where the best from there unit and would again go back to give an account of what they learnt. The pilots do dogfighters with one of the best fighter pilots in their military flying the best aircrafts for dogfights.

    Again when you look at the rate of climb of an aircraft a good indicator of the engine performance during dogfights

    1. MiG29 lower TWR but climbs faster then a F-15.
    2. F-16, F-15, F-18 all share the same Rate of climb but the TWR is F-15,F-16,F-18 in descending order.
    3.Su27 vs Eurofighter2000 the Su27 has less TWR and but higher Rate of climb. The Eurofighter 2000 has the latest supercruise engines.

  166. Fuji, on September 26th, 2009 at 2:42 pm Said
    Strictly speaking, Mig-21 and F-5 Tiger-II is second generation. Some people claim Mig-21late model bis and F-5TigerII as third generation, but that is not right. Mig-23 & mig-27 are the true 3rd gen fighters

  167. Fuji, on September 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm Said:
    None of these countries have F-5 as their main fighter, now why is that? To say specifically,……….
    singapore use it as an INTERCEPTOR ROLE. The squadrons have been winning Awards as late as last year. Squadron 144 and 149

  168. Royal Thai
    aggressor squadron and fighter squadron

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_Air_Force#Squadrons

  169. Brazil
    The backbone of the Brazilian combat aviation

    http://www.electronicaviation.com/articles/Military/664

  170. Fuji, on September 28th, 2009 at 6:17 pm Said
    For middle-economy countries, the 4th generation fighters are costly and can’t be procured in numbers. So they upgrade their old F-5 to maintain their force levels.
    For rich countries, they are only used as trainers and light attack craft
    Again not true. When compared to the above and below postings.
    now if you look at the articles I have posted with regards to the soviet i.e the MiG23 vs the F-5 both in hands of good pilots, same environment “friendly” the MiG23 having higher TWR then the F-5, the F-5 wins. The overall design of the aircraft does the winning.
    Dogfighter depends on the quality and the overall design of the fighter in question and the training of the pilots. against each other. this holds almost 80% of the result.

  171. United states
    The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a growth of the F/A-18 Hornet, which was derived from the YF-17 Cobra, which was a redesign of the F-5 Tiger II.The product of probably more growth evolutions than any other design, the derivative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-17#Development

  172. the US used the F-5 till mid 1980. retired it. Between 1980-2003. US had fought 4 wars. Bosnian War, the 1st and second gulfwar, and afganistan. 3 of this wars had air combat as the spear head of their campaigns.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_exchange_ratio

    In 2003 they acquired second hand F-5 upgraded them and reinstated them in there service of aggress their lead role fighters F-16 and F-15. Not as basic trainers but still as aggressors squadrons. Read in between the lines.

  173. US buys second hand fighters

  174. USSR acknowledges the tiger
    Read the last paragraphs. F-5 is better then theMiG23 let alone the MiG21.
    Now what was your theory again.

    Fuji, on September 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm Said
    Russians building fourth generation fighter by copying F-5? That is so not true
    Read below

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23#Performance_tests

  175. Fuji, on September 28th, 2009 at 6:17 pm Said
    And you’re still ignoring my point. In an environment where pilot training and weapons are equal, TWR plays a big role. In an environment where pilot training and TWR are equal, weapons play a key role. In an environment where twr and weapons are equal, pilot training plays a big role. TWR is an important element of Air combat,
    another un true statements based on TWR of the F-5 vs that of the MiG23/ MiG21 or the experiences of the pilots. The F-5 is pure a good dogfighter based on its design. The russian tested it above blog

  176. Fuji, on September 26th, 2009 at 5:25 pm Said:
    If you guys are much interested in Fighter jets and military hardware, I could point you to some nice defence forums for beginners. There you can gain knowledge as well as clarify your doubts. Let me know if you are interested

    You have constantly be changing your goal post and lying. You poses the qualities of a true Nomadic Blogger who goes around arguing for argument sake in order to boast his ego. I wouldn,t be surprise to see you in another blog arguing For the F-5 after what you have learned from here. The closest experience or feel you have about the F-5 or any military fighter is on a internet web page and that’s all. Therefore your thought and sentiments are of your own making and are inconsequential what so ever they might be. We go with the perspectives of the experts USSR USA UK and several emerging markets think and say. They have the first hand experiences.

  177. Risasi.
    Stand down, soldier. This FIJI dude is dragging this debate with long-winded postings full of generalities without details. Specifically hot air, really. Standard disinformation gimmick – compress the detail and hide the absence of fact therein!! But I think the sting is on you, mate. Lets move this thing beyond this point, and your informed contribution is valued by a lot of us, both in and out of uniform.
    Asante.

  178. Damn it.. the comments are awaiting moderation. Reposting:

    “””Its clear now that your arguments were for argument sake.You are Ill-informed.”””
    Oh dear lord… What you are displaying is F-5 fanboyism. Just because your fav fighter is not as you thought it would be, you are indulging in this denial. Or maybe its blind patriotism?

    “””http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/Iraq.htm
    see 3 july 1986 in this log.”””

    What is wrong with you? It clearly says it is “claimed” by iranians, same as the acig site. It is unconfirmed.

    “MiG-25PD
    claimed”

    “””a new released acig article also mentions it

    http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_247.shtml

    scroll down to the heading title
    and read its third paragraph.
    MiG was flown by a Top IqaF Ace.
    This why until today the Iranians have modified and are still using the F-5.”””
    Ofcourse, that’s the story of the Iranians. It clearly says in both sites that it is unconfirmed.

    And what do you mean recent? Did you see the dates? Your link says it was written in 2003, while the Air-Air list says it was written in 2007.

    “””1. both airforces had radars that could see their enemies . No advantages or disadvantages. One set was used more tactfully then the other.”””
    It clearly says Ethiopia’s is more advanced, and hence vectored their low flying fighters into a favorable position to get a sneak Aim-9 shot. Somalis can only detect fighters in high altitudes.

    “””2. Sidewinder are infrared missile it has to be fired at the fighters rear. This is a Dogfight. Therefore the MiG,s were killed in dogfights. No BVR.”””
    That’s what is called as an ambush. They get to the blind spot of their Mig’s radar, get to their behind, and fire their missile. That’s the advantage of having a AWACS type radar.

    “””3. there was no AWACS technology in between Ethiopia and Somalia. This where Air surveillance radars especial during this time. Vectoring a fighter by ground radar is not AWACS AWACS”””
    That’s why I said “TYPE”. I didn’t say they are AWACS. Awacs is a radar on a plane, similar to a air surveillance radar on the ground. But since it is mobile, it cannot be targetted by ballistic or cruise missiles. Also it’s flying height ensures that it has a greater range.

    “””4. the eliment of ambush wasn,t always present. Two F-5 attacked 4 Mig21.the first two might be ambushed but after the other two MiGs were aware of what was going on.”””
    Aim 9 is a fire and forget missile. Which means the moment you fire them, the next second you can take the other missile and target you opponent. You don’t have to wait till the missile hits the aircraft. It takes mere seconds to target another fighter. The first missile would not have even reached the Migs. Aim-9 have a range of around 10kms, could be higher.

    “””All upgrades come with improved features including engines atimes. Have you ever see an upgrade with feature below it? The TOPGUN instructors wanted a 4th generation fighter simulator. Do you even know features of a . 4th generation fighter Read through :innovative technologies introduced in fourth-generation fighters include “look-down/shoot-down” capability, head-up displays (HUD), “hands on throttle-and-stick” (HOTAS) controls, and multi-function displays (MFD), Infrared search-and-track (IRST) and atimes Composite materials in the form of bonded aluminum honeycomb structural elements and graphite epoxy laminate among others. Not crappy engines as you say. This are the upgrades that have been done to the new F-5″””
    What? It clearly says they can’t simulate the performance of Mig-29 and Su-27. So they chose the upgraded F-20 which has a better engine. And simulation does not mean 100% mimicing. Even a 60%-80% would do. But the F-5’s are so crappy, they can’t even simulate, let alone completely completely mimic the Su-27 & Mig-29.
    Just because you have HUD doesn’t mean it can simulate the Russian 4 gen fighters. With such a shitty engine, Mig-29 would run circles around it.

    “””Selection of pilots to fight the aggressor squadron where the best from there unit and would again go back to give an account of what they learnt. The pilots do dogfighters with one of the best fighter pilots in their military flying the best aircrafts for dogfights.”””
    Yeah.. So? Aggressor pilots fly the F-5 to simulate Mig-21s and F-7s.

  179. “””Again when you look at the rate of climb of an aircraft a good indicator of the engine performance during dogfights”””
    Yes.

    “””1. MiG29 lower TWR but climbs faster then a F-15.
    2. F-16, F-15, F-18 all share the same Rate of climb but the TWR is F-15,F-16,F-18 in descending order.
    3.Su27 vs Eurofighter2000 the Su27 has less TWR and but higher Rate of climb. The Eurofighter 2000 has the latest supercruise engines.”””
    That is the instantaneous/initial rate of climb! Initial rate of climb can be misleading because a fighter with has inertia can use it to climb for a short distance. But after a while it will slow down due to low power of engines. Also as it gains altitude, lesser wing area or specifically high wing loading will slow down the fighter.

    If F-15 is subjected to the same inertia, then it will climb faster than a Mig-29. The real deal is time taken to reach a decent height(5000m) and divide it by the time to get the real rate of climb. Here Mig-29 can only manage-

    From wiki:
    “The initial rate of climb record for pilot aircraft is held by MiG-29 at 330 m/s (65,000 ft/min). The average rate of climb for a MiG-29 is only 109 m/s from sea level to 6000 m.”

    “Time to climb to 6000 m (Steigzeit): about 55 sec”

    http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/frtypen/FRMiG-29.htm

  180. But lets look at F-15, from wiki:

    “The F-15’s maneuverability is derived from low wing loading (weight to wing area ratio) with a high thrust-to-weight ratio enabling the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed. The F-15 can climb to 30,000 ft (10,000 m) in around 60 seconds. The thrust output of the dual engines is greater than the aircraft’s weight, thus giving it the ability to accelerate in a vertical climb.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle

    It is simple physics, If you throw a stone with more force, the stone goes even higher. With more powerful engine which has more force, you climb faster. This is kindergaden physics, so to speak. Although in Aeronautics, wing loading also comes into play. But when compared to TWR, wing loading is important but a bit secondary, since most modern fighters have reasonable wingloadings.

    Here are some Wing loadings for 3505kg loaded weight:
    290.1 – Eurofighter
    291.8 – F-15C
    303.9 – Mirage-IIIE
    319.4 – Su-27
    453.8 – F-5E Tiger-II

    Empty Weight – Wing area – Fighter
    11,000 – 50.00 – Eurofighter
    12,973 – 56.48 – F-15C
    07,050 – 34.85 – Mirage-III
    16,300 – 62.00 – Su-27
    04,336 – 17.28 – F-5E Tiger-II

    It is interesting to note that Mirage-III makes up it’s low TWR with it’s low wing loading. Well, what do you expect from Delta winged fighters. Delta wing increases weight, so if the engine is low on thrust, then TWR is low. But it somewhat makes up for the TWR loss with superb low wing loading. So that’s another blow for the F-5.

    Unlike TWR, wing loading cannot be determined for every fighter because some fighters’ fuselage is blended with the wing, and so a part of it is a part of a wing. Mig-29 & F-16 are such examples.

    “””singapore use it as an INTERCEPTOR ROLE. The squadrons have been winning Awards as late as last year. Squadron 144 and 149″””
    Singapore is a city. There is nothing much to intercept there. Besides, you can employ a fighter with mach 1.6 speed to intercept if the aggressor is coming towards you of angle less than 90 degrees. Even a mig-15 can intercept in that case. But for intercept involving angles greater than 90 with opponent fighter speeds in excess of mach-1.6, F-5 is as use as a scrap.

    And for Brazil & Thailand, like I said, they don’t have immediate threats. Also they have Rafale(about to be procured in small numbers) & Gripen respectively.

    “””Again not true. When compared to the above and below postings.
    now if you look at the articles I have posted with regards to the soviet i.e the MiG23 vs the F-5 both in hands of good pilots, same environment “friendly” the MiG23 having higher TWR then the F-5, the F-5 wins. The overall design of the aircraft does the winning.
    Dogfighter depends on the quality and the overall design of the fighter in question and the training of the pilots. against each other. this holds almost 80% of the result.”””
    It sure didn’t seems like 80% when Mig-21s were swatting F-5s out of the sky. Where did the F-5s win with equal pilot skill and equipment? Quote it. And what overall design? This fighter as designed in the 60s for crying out loud! TWR is one of the basic of Dogfights. Without power you can’t dogfight. Why do you think there are jet engines now instead of propeller planes? It is because of high TWRs.

  181. CONCLUSION
    United Kingdom

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/527th_Space_Aggressor_Squadron

    Reply “””
    What the? It is not United kingdom. Read your link. it is a USAF squadron.. only based in the U.K. Also USAF does not operate F-5 because like I said before, they are inferior when compared to Mig-29 & Su-27. The squadron now uses F-16.

    “””the US used the F-5 till mid 1980. retired it. Between 1980-2003. US had fought 4 wars. Bosnian War, the 1st and second gulfwar, and afganistan. 3 of this wars had air combat as the spear head of their campaigns.
    wikipedia/wiki/Loss_exchange_ratio
    In 2003 they acquired second hand F-5 upgraded them and reinstated them in there service of aggress their lead role fighters F-16 and F-15. Not as basic trainers but still as aggressors squadrons. Read in between the lines.”””
    And your point is? So why didn’t they use their super duper F-5 in their war in afghanistan elsewhere and only use them in training? They are employed in Aggressor squadrons because of low cost and maintenance, and most importantly to simulate Mig-21s and F-7s.

    “””The early MiG-23M series was also used to test the American F-5s captured by the North Vietnamese and sent to the former USSR for evaluation, however the Russians acknowledged the F-5 was a very agile aircraft and at some speeds and altitudes better than the MiG-23M, this was one of the main reasons the MiG-23MLD and MiG-29 developments were started. These tests of the F-5 allowed the russians to make modifications to several of their 4th generation aircraft, however despite the MiG-23 was not designed to combat F-5s, it showed the weaknesses of the early MiG-23 variants .”””
    Read it again, it says EARLY Mig-23 variants, and most importantly only on SOME speeds. SOME SPEEDS!!! Most probably its is the slow speed envelop since early Mig-23 variants are very very poor there. Kinda loosely similar to Mig-25.

    Read it from you own Mig-23 wiki link:
    “The early Flogger variants were intended to be used in high-speed missile attacks, but it was soon noticed that fighters often had to engage in more stressful close-in combat. Early production aircraft had actually suffered cracks in the fuselage during their service career. Maneuverability of the aircraft was also criticized. A considerable redesign of the airframe was performed, resulting in the MiG-23ML (L – lightweight), which made it in some ways a new aircraft.”

    “Intended(designed) to be used in high speed missile attacks and not close-in combats/dogfights”… Got that?

    “””another un true statements based on TWR of the F-5 vs that of the MiG23/ MiG21 or the experiences of the pilots. The F-5 is pure a good dogfighter based on its design. The russian tested it above blog”””
    Read above paragraph.

    “”” You have constantly be changing your goal post and lying. You poses the qualities of a true Nomadic Blogger who goes around arguing for argument sake in order to boast his ego. I wouldn,t be surprise to see you in another blog arguing For the F-5 after what you have learned from here. The closest experience or feel you have about the F-5 or any military fighter is on a internet web page and that’s all. Therefore your thought and sentiments are of your own making and are inconsequential what so ever they might be. We go with the perspectives of the experts USSR USA UK and several emerging markets think and say. They have the first hand experiences.”””
    lol.. I have posted numerous quotes from U.S themselves that they are inferior(and also the russians of their early Mig23s performance). Also there is the piss poor performance against the Mig-21.

    You are just blind with nationalism. Just because your country has it, it is the best. Or you are an F-5 fanboy. Either one of these 2 reasons or both.

    “””Stand down, soldier. This FIJI dude is dragging this debate with long-winded postings full of generalities without details. Specifically hot air, really. Standard disinformation gimmick – compress the detail and hide the absence of fact therein!! But I think the sting is on you, mate. Lets move this thing beyond this point, and your informed contribution is valued by a lot of us, both in and out of uniform.”””
    Oi.. oi just because you can’t face the truth don’t reduce it to hot air. F-5 was great for it’s time, but not now.

  182. Kinda bored.. some facts on the F-15 from wiki:
    “The F-15 in all air forces had an air-to-air combined record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat as of February 2008. To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces.”
    Cool! F-18 doesn’t have this record.. I remember it being shot down by the Iraqi AF.

    Some F-20 facts:
    “The main change was the replacement of the F-5′s two General Electric J85 engines with a single General Electric F404 turbofan, increasing its total thrust by 60%.”

    60% increase of engine thrust!

    “The Pakistan Air Force was offered the F-20 and A-10 Thunderbolt II, but insisted on choosing the F-16 because it was felt that it would give them a technological advantage.
    After six years and no major buyers, Northrop cancelled the $1.2 billion project. Air forces that could afford the F-20 bought the F-16, while ones which could buy neither, purchased the cheaper F-5E/F Tiger II or the Russian MiG-21. While its performance was comparable to the Block 1/5/10 F-16 and superior to the turbojet-powered export-variant F-16/79, the F-20 airframe had virtually no remaining expansion capability, as it was built on essentially a 20 year old airframe at the limits of its capabilities.”

    http://www.aircraft-list.com/db/F-20_Tigershark/83/

    It was comparable to F-16 due to it’s new 60% more thrust turbofan engines. It was superior to the turbojet powered F-16s… I mentioned it sometime before that F-5 engine was crappy because of it’s low thrust and it being a turbo jet.

    “20 year old airframe at the limits of its capabilities”… no surprises there. They should have modified the airframe with medium/high set wings, non-wing undercarriage and larger wing area like they did for the YF-17. F-16′s were constantly evolved into block 15,20,30,50 etc etc but the airframe design of F-20 was at its limits.

    BTW, in my previous reply regarding wing loading for blended fuselages, the sentence should refined as “cannot be determined(accurately) for every fighter”. You can take the wing area and calculate the loading, but the part of the fuselage’s area will be left out of the calculation.

  183. Fuji, on October 4th, 2009 at 9:50 pm Said:
    Kinda bored.. some facts on the F-15 from wiki:
    “The F-15 in all air forces had an air-to-air combined record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat as of February 2008. To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces.”
    Cool! F-18 doesn’t have this record.. I remember it being shot down by the Iraqi AF
    So what. who disputes the F-15 is better fighter then the F-5 or the F-18. its good that you have just realized it. The F-15 is one of the best lead role fighters. again arguing for argument sake
    Acig states
    Another MiG-25PD(export) is known to have been shot down by F-14s and F-5s, in 1983, while another – flown by the Iraqi top “ace” of the Iraq-Iran War, Lt.Col. Mohammad “Sky Falcon” Rayyan – was shot down by gunfire from an IRIAF F-5E while underway at Mach 1 and 29.000ft, in July 1986.
    Crippled jets don,t move at the speed of sound.

  184. Fuji, on October 3rd, 2009 at 5:38 pm Said
    sure didn’t seems like 80% when Mig-21s were swatting F-5s out of the sky. Where did the F-5s win with equal pilot skill and equipment? Quote it. And what overall design? This fighter as designed in the 60s for crying out loud! TWR is one of the basic of Dogfights. Without power you can’t dogfight. Why do you think there are jet engines now instead of propeller planes? It is because of high TWRs
    the equally trained pilots and friendly ground F-5 dogfighter against russian MiGs was done in russia. The soviets tested the F-5 against there fighters and admitted it was better.

  185. Fuji, on October 4th, 2009 at 9:50 pm Said:
    Some F-20 facts:
    “The main change was the replacement of the F-5’s two General Electric J85 engines with a single General Electric F404 turbofan, increasing its total thrust by 60%.”
    Most upgrade come with an improved engines if not new ones. Am surprise you find it disturbing. It’s a wise trend to improve the engine output and efficiency when changing or upgrading them, when else can you do this? See F-15A/B to F-15C/D. F-16 upgrade, the MiG23MLD all got better engines then when they roled out. I don,t see why your disturbed on this aspect. You want a new engine with less or same power? there many other examples on the net spend some time to find out.
    General Electric J85. (F-5) is not a problematic engine. If fact its to the contra. Its the longest produced military engine and a success story. It has the highest powered turbojet engine for it size. The United States Air Force plans to continue using the J85 in aircraft through 2040

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_J85

  186. “20 year old airframe at the limits of its capabilities”… no surprises there. They should have modified the airframe with medium/high set wings, non-wing undercarriage and larger wing area like they did for the YF-17. F-16’s were constantly evolved into block 15,20,30,50 etc etc but the airframe design of F-20 was at its limits
    or maybe put delta or swept back wings…………….. whats your point?
    The F-5 evolved from the tiger/freedom fighter, tiger II, tiger III. The new tigers consist of many upgrades (4th generation aspects) all under the same frame. Whats your point again.
    . Read through the design of the F-20. Which included other things among engines. 4th generation features.

  187. The F-20 fell out due to the following reason and not as you think so.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark#Limiting_exports

  188. In all subjects there always those who like or hate it. So if you don,t like the F-5 go a head and suit yourself. It doesn’t change a thing. the truth shall always be. what you say or believe in are in your own perceptions and are inconsequential. we go by what the experts have realized. The Americans retired the F-5 in the mid 80,s and reinstated it in 2003. the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane. the Americans have given the F-5 a 10+ years service dedicated time in there armed forces. Not as a basic trainer or for targets practice but to challenge there best pilots in 4th generation birds. the f-5 will perform this duty until 2015. I really don,t have to prove any thing more to you. It’s all above in black and white let all read and make his on judgments.

  189. “””So what. who disputes the F-15 is better fighter then the F-5 or the F-18. its good that you have just realized it. The F-15 is one of the best lead role fighters. again arguing for argument sake”””
    lol.. With a blind patriot like you who knows what’s in your mind. I never saw you claim F-5 is inferior to F-15.
    The Su-27 & the Mig-29 was designed to counter the American F-15 and the F-16 jets. That’s the reason why F-5′s can’t simulate them. The difference in performance is very wide.

    “””Acig states
    Another MiG-25PD(export) is known to have been shot down by F-14s and F-5s, in 1983, while another – flown by the Iraqi top “ace” of the Iraq-Iran War, Lt.Col. Mohammad “Sky Falcon” Rayyan – was shot down by gunfire from an IRIAF F-5E while underway at Mach 1 and 29.000ft, in July 1986.
    Crippled jets don,t move at the speed of sound.”””
    I don’t know how many times I have repeated this. F-14 fired the bvr and crippled the Mig. The F-5 took another shot at the now crippled Mig using Aim-9. The gunfire story is unconfirmed, for good reasons. No Mig-25 pilot is stupid enough to get shot down by F-5′s gun. The Mig-25 was crippled at the first incident, not the second gun incident. Stop confusing yourself by living in denial.

    “””the equally trained pilots and friendly ground F-5 dogfighter against russian MiGs was done in russia. The soviets tested the F-5 against there fighters and admitted it was better.”””
    The wiki link already said the jets were not designed for slow speed combat. The early variants was only designed for hit and run combat. Why are you repeating this all over again?

    “””Most upgrade come with an improved engines if not new ones. Am surprise you find it disturbing. It’s a wise trend to improve the engine output and efficiency when changing or upgrading them, when else can you do this? See F-15A/B to F-15C/D. F-16 upgrade, the MiG23MLD all got better engines then when they roled out. I don,t see why your disturbed on this aspect. You want a new engine with less or same power? there many other examples on the net spend some time to find out.
    General Electric J85. (F-5) is not a problematic engine. If fact its to the contra. Its the longest produced military engine and a success story. It has the highest powered turbojet engine for it size. The United States Air Force plans to continue using the J85 in aircraft through 2040″””
    Yeah, some upgrades come with an upgraded engine. But not a 60% increase in thrust! That’s a huge amount. If you compare the Engine thrust of F-16block 10 with F-16 block 30, it’s only around 30%. For F-15 & F-18, it’s below 30-40%. This shows the underpowered nature of the F-5s engine. F-5 whether it is tiger-II or tiger-III has the same engine. As a result it’s flight maneuvers is seriously affected due to low TWR. It can’t climb, can’t recover Airspeed losses quickly… as a result can’t make sustained sharp turns. If you can’t make sustained sharp turns during a dogfight, you’re turn radius will be huge. If your opponent has a shorter turn radius then you’re dead. Mig-23MLD, Mig-29, Su-27 can all outmaneuver the F-5 easily in a dogfight.

    “””or maybe put delta or swept back wings…………….. whats your point?
    The F-5 evolved from the tiger/freedom fighter, tiger II, tiger III. The new tigers consist of many upgrades (4th generation aspects) all under the same frame. Whats your point again.
    . Read through the design of the F-20. Which included other things among engines. 4th generation features.”””
    My point is the F-5′s airframe & engine is old. If you take a Subaru 360 and add smart brakes, a dvd player, power steering, GPS navigation and surround sound which is found in modern cars, the fact is it is still a crappy subaru in the end, with a shitty engine with a piss poor acceleration and top speed. Get the picture?

    “””The F-20 fell out due to the following reason and not as you think so.”””
    I didn’t think so? I didn’t think or mention that, it was mentioned by the aviation website. I gave it’s link below the statement in the previous post.
    The same export restriction was applied to F-16 as well, but see how many early Block F-16s were sold to the USAF and NATO even though early Block F-16s and F-20 was comparable in performance. USAF and NATO opted for F-16 over F-20, eventhough it has a new shiny turbofan engine with 60% increase in thrust. The reason is because it’s Airframe(low set wings & wing undercarriage) is basically old design and had reached it’s end.

    “””In all subjects there always those who like or hate it. So if you don,t like the F-5 go a head and suit yourself. It doesn’t change a thing. the truth shall always be. what you say or believe in are in your own perceptions and are inconsequential. we go by what the experts have realized. The Americans retired the F-5 in the mid 80,s and reinstated it in 2003. the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane. the Americans have given the F-5 a 10+ years service dedicated time in there armed forces. Not as a basic trainer or for targets practice but to challenge there best pilots in 4th generation birds. the f-5 will perform this duty until 2015. I really don,t have to prove any thing more to you. It’s all above in black and white let all read and make his on judgments.”””
    The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. This is not “the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane”. The U.S buys such planes to be used in Aggressor combat. The U.S also bought Mig-21s previously to be used in Aggressor training. But since the U.S has bought this from countries which have rebelled against Soviets/Russia, this means there is no support of spares. So these precious fighters are only used sparingly in Aggressor training. This is where the F-5s and F-16 come in. These 2 jets simulate Mig-2s and Mig-29′s respectively for longer flight times, while the actual Mig-21s and Mig-29s are used on only a few training occasions due to unavailability of spares & support. The U.S did not buy F-5s for use in combat operations, they are just there to mimic the now junk Mig-21/F-7s, nothing more.

  190. The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. This is not “the first time in modern history for the US to buy used plane”. The U.S buys such planes to be used in Aggressor combat. The U.S also bought Mig-21s previously to be used in Aggressor training. But since the U.S has bought this from countries which have rebelled against Soviets/Russia, this means there is no support of spares. So these precious fighters are only used sparingly in Aggressor training. This is where the F-5s and F-16 come in. These 2 jets simulate Mig-2s and Mig-29’s respectively for longer flight times, while the actual Mig-21s and Mig-29s are used on only a few training occasions due to unavailability of spares & support. The U.S did not buy F-5s for use in combat operations… the junk F-5s they are just there to mimic the junk Mig-21/F-7s, nothing more.

    http://air-combat.suite101.com/article.cfm/secret_migs_flown_by_the_usaf

    “The American flyers of these aircraft had to contend with un-maintainable and mysterious planes as they had no spare parts or technical manuals available. Ground crews had to resort to reverse engineering aircraft components and manufacturing them from raw materials just to keep them in the air. US pilots found out first hand how dangerous these aircraft were and two lost their lives in catastrophic crashes. They did, however, learn the strengths and weakness of the Warsaw Pact’s fast movers and this information would prove to be invaluable to NATO fliers in any sort of East/West engagement. This was proven in air to air combat every time these Soviet Cold War era aircraft have been encountered in Iraq, Libya, Angola and elsewhere.

    The 4477th flew its last MiGs in 1990 and with the end of the Cold War was deactivated. The 6513th which had stopped flying MiGs in the early eighties was inactivated in 1992. In 2006, the Constant Peg program was declassified and the USAF held a series of press conferences about the former top secret US MiGs. It was revealed that the US MiGs flew more than 15,000 sorties and nearly 7,000 aircrew flew in training against dissimilar aggressors in the Nevada desert between 1980 and the end of the program in 1988. These included the ‘real’ MiGs as well as US made A4 and T-38/F5 aircraft visually modified to be ‘fake’ MiGs. The Groom Lake facility still exists (unofficially, of course).”

    I’m a fan of Me262. But that doesn’t mean I’m blind. if someone says Me262 is better than a F-5 I would not stand by and let him sprout such nonsense. Me262 was a great fighter, but it is junk, just like the F-5s which are junks by todays standards.

    You are just living in denial about your Airforce’s F-5.

    BTW, the U.S just bought Su-27 for aggressor training a few months back.
    en.rian.ru/world/20090512/155007415.html

  191. Fuji, on October 6th, 2009 at 7:25 am Said
    The wiki link already said the jets were not designed for slow speed combat. The early variants was only designed for hit and run combat. Why are you repeating this all over again?

    Yes with its high speed and TWR the F-5 will bring it down when it they meet that all that matters. As you earlier stated the MiG should have “circled around the F-5 and be at a vantage point behind it. and while the F-5 tried to out maneuver the MiG it would loss power to tight turns” What happened then? what’s your assumptions now? “if the F-5 comes from behind the MiG should be able to accelerate around and behind the F-5 again” wasn,t that what your have been saying all along.

    The low TWR F-5 bringing down MiGs with higher TWR gives you a double punch.
    1. it not true what you say about the TWR list
    2. the F-5 on a fair playing field brings down many Russian aircrafts. i.e from the MiG23 and below. The MiG 25 was brought down by the F-5 in a dogfight. On the Su27 or Mig29. its yet to be seen.. The F-5 is a good dogfighter.

    The Russians tested the F-5 against the Mig21 and the F-5 won inside the USSR airspace. What else do you need to hear? This was done in a friendly environment for research purpose. Repeatedly again and again until they come out with conclusive results. I said this to inform you on that the Iranian F-5 and pilots were a victim of there regime. Otherwise more MiG21/23 would have ended up in the scrap yards. Therefore the picture posed in he iran/iraq war with regards to the F-5 vs MiG21/23 is stained. Get a clear opinion, from the manufacture of the MiG21 and MiG23 when he conducted dogfights against both aircrafts against the F-5.

    • and when they did come out with conclusive results about the superiority of the F-5 in dogfight against there fighters they copied it (natural thing to do) for there 4th generation fighter. something you have always denied until I showed you from wiki. who is in denial know?

  192. Yeah, some upgrades come with an upgraded engine. But not a 60% increase in thrust! That’s a huge amount. If you compare the Engine thrust of F-16block 10 with F-16 block 30, it’s only around 30%. For F-15 & F-18, it’s below 30-40%

    60% came from innovation not luck. so what if they made the better engine they shouldn’t use it?

    1. Fuji, on October 6th, 2009 at 7:53 am Said:
    The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. ……….
    No no a big lie again the US brought the MiGs because they were capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Therefore preventing them from being sold to “rogue states”. Iran in mind The MiG29 were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center and not to aggressor squadrons as you say..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#MiG_29s_in_the_United_States

    The F-5 on the other hand was purchased as a supplement for the aggressor squadron

    Ok posted another lie..am waiting

  193. “””Yes with its high speed and TWR the F-5 will bring it down when it they meet that all that matters. As you earlier stated the MiG should have “circled around the F-5 and be at a vantage point behind it. and while the F-5 tried to out maneuver the MiG it would loss power to tight turns” What happened then? what’s your assumptions now? “if the F-5 comes from behind the MiG should be able to accelerate around and behind the F-5 again” wasn,t that what your have been saying all along. “””
    What part of “it was not designed for slow speed dogfights”, didn’t you understand? In order to get behind your opponent it has to make a circle. But to do that in SLOW SPEEDS it has to reduce it’s thrust. Once it reduces it’s thrust, it’s TWR is in shambles. In the real world, you are not stupid to get into slow speeds if you are a Mig-23 pilot, Mig-23 will use it’s speed and acceleration to get behind the F-5, eventhough turn circle will be a higher, the initial advantage the F-5 has will be eclipsed with speed and TWRs.

    “””The low TWR F-5 bringing down MiGs with higher TWR gives you a double punch.
    1. it not true what you say about the TWR list
    2. the F-5 on a fair playing field brings down many Russian aircrafts. i.e from the MiG23 and below. The MiG 25 was brought down by the F-5 in a dogfight. On the Su27 or Mig29. its yet to be seen.. The F-5 is a good dogfighter.

    The Russians tested the F-5 against the Mig21 and the F-5 won inside the USSR airspace. What else do you need to hear? This was done in a friendly environment for research purpose. Repeatedly again and again until they come out with conclusive results. I said this to inform you on that the Iranian F-5 and pilots were a victim of there regime. Otherwise more MiG21/23 would have ended up in the scrap yards. Therefore the picture posed in he iran/iraq war with regards to the F-5 vs MiG21/23 is stained. Get a clear opinion, from the manufacture of the MiG21 and MiG23 when he conducted dogfights against both aircrafts against the F-5.”””
    What are you saying? Do you have selective amnesia? How many times do I have to say that fight was staged in favor of F-5 with combat taking place in slow speeds? You yourself said it was for purely research purposes. And How many times do I have to quote from sources that iran have better pilots, more planes, better missiles and yet those F-5 Junks were shot down like flies. Those F-14s were also flown by the same pilots and missiles, but count how many kills F-14 made(both BVR and Dogfight missiles separately) on the Mig-21. And those F-14 planes are even worse to maintain than F-5 since they require a lot of spares & maintenance and are costly to fly, but surprisingly they shot down more.
    And what do you mean “it not true what you say about the TWR list”? Can’t you even understand a simple fact that we are now flying jets instead of propellers because of better TWRs, rate of climb and maneuverability(if designed for it)? Can’t you even understand the simple fact that nations are developing new and better powerful engines to have high TWRs? And how many times do I have to post the link stating F-5 didn’t shoot down a single Mig-25, and the only kill it made is when the jet was already hit by F-14s missile and was crippled. And your Country’s F-5 can’t even fire BVR while Mig-29 and Su-27 can, and hold the clear edge in dogfight combat.
    And what do you mean Mig-21/23? It only says Mig-23 not 21, and that too it mentions slow speed combat.

    “””and when they did come out with conclusive results about the superiority of the F-5 in dogfight against there fighters they copied it (natural thing to do) for there 4th generation fighter. something you have always denied until I showed you from wiki. who is in denial know?”””
    Yeah, conclusive results for a staged fight in favor of F-5, not a real world fight. And do you know the meaning of copied? It is said to be ‘some modifications’, most probably only cockpit since American fighters are known to have easy pilot interface. Mig29′s airframe and TWR is nothing like the F-5, it’s a totally different design.

    “””60% came from innovation not luck. so what if they made the better engine they shouldn’t use it? “””
    You are missing the point, 60% increase just goes to show how much underpowered the F-5′s engine is. Other upgrades don’t have that much increase of thrust.

    “””The U.S bought 21 Mig-29s from moldova in 1997 to be used in aggressor training. ……….
    No no a big lie again the US brought the MiGs because they were capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Therefore preventing them from being sold to “rogue states”. Iran in mind The MiG29 were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center and not to aggressor squadrons as you say..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#MiG_29s_in_the_United_States“””
    What? Do you think the U.S would advertise to everybody that they are buying fighters for their secret mig aggressors? Did you read the link of how U.S maintains their mig aggressors in secrecy till 2006? And your wiki link clearly says “PART of the motive”, what is the other part? To prove Working evaluation and data. How can you have a complete evaluation of a working/flying mig without being put to test as aggressors? Use common sense. Some of the 20 or so migs which are in good flying condition will surely be used as aggressors. Buying a cake and not eating it is just stupid. And BTW, Iran doesn’t even have a nuclear weapon.

    “””Ok posted another lie..am waiting”””
    The only lie in here is you lying to yourself. I’ve debunked every thing you’ve listed as lie, but you’re still lying to yourself and can’t come to terms with reality that your country operates junk fighters, most probably in a deal which involved kickbacks. And most probably those junks can’t even fire bvr weapons.

  194. I feel Fuji is twisting facts & aurging for the sake of it,basically spliting hairs. I doent mean that Iran,a rogue nation, wouldnt be keen on buying the nuclear capable Mig 29,since they dont even have the nuclear weapon. It is widely assumed that they are working on nuclear weapons.& it should follow that they would be keen on acquring the means of delivery,-missile,aircraft,or otherwise. Now he wants to dispute Risasi’s restatement of what wiki says by saying the US wouldnt advertise their intention,bla bla bla.
    This is becoming boring.In that respect, may i call members to vote, we see where views are more aligned to. Risasi’s point of view has my vote.Anyone else?

  195. That Kenya’s F5s do not have BVR. Not necessarily a true statement (by Fuji).There isnt any info if the F5s being upgraded by Rockwell Collins will (or not) have this feature. Another false aurgument. I see Fuji bent on demonstrating how the F5 is junk, without regard to what geopolitical environmnt the F5s in discussion are. It would be informative that to check the what other airforces in the region are armed with.A country arms based on its percieved threat matrix. That US ally airforces that keep the F5,even though they can afford the better F16, is because they have the US airforce as backup.So they are ok with their “junk” fighter, i.e they do not keep it for its performance. That is a false argument. Hope everyone can see through it. It doesnt explain why say, Saudi Arabia would keep a junk airforce,but yet keep a top notch equiped army.Same as Norway, Spain, South Korea,Singapore, etc. So, applying the same augument,it doesnt explain why those that can afford are stepping up to the F16, after staying so long with “junk”. All in all, lets see what other others have to say

  196. I agree with IZZO, and said much earlier this guy is simply hot-air deskjockey swamping us with info in the hope that he will obsfucate the absence of fact and reality in his posting. We need to move on from here, and continue to develop this discussion. This trick is as old as war itself, as any student of warfare will attest – it is called disinformation, and we are all getting sucked into this. Not worthy checking into this blog to read his posting RISASI HAS MY VOTE!!

  197. It doesent escape you guys that there are lots of guys who manufacture reputable alternatives to the upgrade F5E /F20 who resent the continued dominance of this variant in the specific tasking that any military with non-intercontinental capacity requires. Without doubts at all, this fighter responds to all critical crieteria of Forces in this category, better than any of the other pretenders. I wouldnt be surprised if FIJI was not pushing to influence long-term strategic planning in favour of his preferred model, in which case one would doubt all the data he has swamped this blog with. Despite the plethora of “data” he offers, there is contained factual numerous contradictions amd outright misinformation in this same data FIJI posts in this blog, so as to critically wound his posting, Beware, guys!!

  198. He he he! Come to think of it. He posted his detailed table without stating its origin/link. A fraction of me thinks its “internally generated data for comparative purposes” ,probably for the purposes implied by tom…well.never mind.am just speculating.
    Long ago, before things got this heated up,someone had just come back home from a long tour “.. a CI tour of the Ituri /North Kivu Sector, then swore that the place is really “hot”, and that ..”the world does not know just how!” He promised we would hear more, then he went quiet. Also someone else promised to post some photos. Havent seen those either..

  199. “””I feel Fuji is twisting facts & aurging for the sake of it,basically spliting hairs. I doent mean that Iran,a rogue nation, wouldnt be keen on buying the nuclear capable Mig 29,since they dont even have the nuclear weapon. It is widely assumed that they are working on nuclear weapons.& it should follow that they would be keen on acquring the means of delivery,-missile,aircraft,or otherwise. Now he wants to dispute Risasi’s restatement of what wiki says by saying the US wouldnt advertise their intention,bla bla bla.”””
    Isn’t it the other way around? Risasi trying to twist facts to suit his F-5 fanboyism. First he gleefully posted Iran Iraq war, but later withdrew after coming to know of his folly.

    And not just me, even other experts say U.S bought those for testing and studying the Aircombat potential of the Mig-29s rather than the Iran story.
    “Contrary to what was broadly reported, namely, and even if at least six of these are now displayed at different places in the USA, the main purpose of that purchase was again to test and study the type, instead of preventing Iran to get additional MiG-29s. ”

    http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_371.shtml

    You have to be pretty naive, ignorant and childish to believe that U.S bought those solely because of the Iran factor. Would you pass the opportunity to test against real enemies/Aggressors(Mig-29s) than opt for fake ones(F-16s). Even in the 2006 breifing, I think there is no mention of Mig-29s, just goes to show how secretive Mig-29s are deployed to train their pilots against Mig-29 threats from other countries.

    “””This is becoming boring.In that respect, may i call members to vote, we see where views are more aligned to. Risasi’s point of view has my vote.Anyone else?”””
    Right… in a Kenyan blog, populated by kenyans, on Kenyan’s one and only fighter, people will vote fairly. lol This isn’t democracy.

    “””That Kenya’s F5s do not have BVR. Not necessarily a true statement (by Fuji).There isnt any info if the F5s being upgraded by Rockwell Collins will (or not) have this feature. Another false aurgument. I see Fuji bent on demonstrating how the F5 is junk, without regard to what geopolitical environmnt the F5s in discussion are. It would be informative that to check the what other airforces in the region are armed with.A country arms based on its percieved threat matrix. That US ally airforces that keep the F5,even though they can afford the better F16, is because they have the US airforce as backup.So they are ok with their “junk” fighter, i.e they do not keep it for its performance. That is a false argument. Hope everyone can see through it. It doesnt explain why say, Saudi Arabia would keep a junk airforce,but yet keep a top notch equiped army.Same as Norway, Spain, South Korea,Singapore, etc. So, applying the same augument,it doesnt explain why those that can afford are stepping up to the F16, after staying so long with “junk”. All in all, lets see what other others have to say”””
    Unlike, Kenya, none of their air forces operates ONLY junk fighters, that’s the difference. Infact, they have F-16′s Mirage-2000′s and F-15s as THE jets to rely on. But you are right about one thing, F-5 are good if there is USAF backing/no threat from the neighbors,… or in other words old/junk platforms are enough for reduced threats.
    And it is true that Kenyan’s F-5 most probably doesn’t have BVRs.

    “””I agree with IZZO, and said much earlier this guy is simply hot-air deskjockey swamping us with info in the hope that he will obsfucate the absence of fact and reality in his posting. We need to move on from here, and continue to develop this discussion. This trick is as old as war itself, as any student of warfare will attest – it is called disinformation, and we are all getting sucked into this. Not worthy checking into this blog to read his posting RISASI HAS MY VOTE!!

    It doesent escape you guys that there are lots of guys who manufacture reputable alternatives to the upgrade F5E /F20 who resent the continued dominance of this variant in the specific tasking that any military with non-intercontinental capacity requires. Without doubts at all, this fighter responds to all critical crieteria of Forces in this category, better than any of the other pretenders. I wouldnt be surprised if FIJI was not pushing to influence long-term strategic planning in favour of his preferred model, in which case one would doubt all the data he has swamped this blog with. Despite the plethora of “data” he offers, there is contained factual numerous contradictions amd outright misinformation in this same data FIJI posts in this blog, so as to critically wound his posting, Beware, guys!!”””
    Obfuscating facts? Why’d you think Russia and U.S is spending billions on more powerful engines? They are idiots? Are they fooling the world or are they obstructing facts like me? I guess people on this blog are factual than Pratt and Whittney, General Electric, Saturn, Rolls Royce and Scnema.
    Oh yeah.. Risasi gets my vote too for being a F-5 fanboy.

  200. “””He he he! Come to think of it. He posted his detailed table without stating its origin/link. A fraction of me thinks its “internally generated data for comparative purposes” ,probably for the purposes implied by tom…well.never mind.am just speculating.”””
    What? The empty weight/thrust data is very much available on open source if you’re not convinced. You can’t post links for each and every fighter type. F-5′s engine’s piss poor thrust is known to all.

  201. Quoting from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-29.htm# ” The US Department of Defense of the United States of America and the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Moldova reached an agreement to implement the Cooperative Threat Reduction accord signed on June 23, 1997, in Moldova. The Pentagon pounced on the planes after learning Iran had inspected the jets and expressed an interest in adding them to their inventory. Although Iran already flew the less-capable Fulcrum A, it doesn’t own any of the more advanced C-models. Of the 21 Fulcrums the United States bought, 14 are the frontline Fulcrum C’s, which contain an active radar jammer in its spine, six older A’s and one B-model two-seat trainer. This agreement authorized the United States Government to purchase nuclear-capable MiG-29 fighter planes from the Government of Moldova. This was a joint effort by both Governments to ensure that these dual-use military weapons do not fall into the hands of rogue states”. It adds “If NAIO can discover how the Fulcrum works, Air Force pilots might gain an edge if they faced the Fulcrum in future combat. ”
    Very clever of you to downplay the iranian element & overplay the aggressor training element.The strategy fits you well. But it isnt very dificult to see through your tactic.

  202. More evidence of your downlaying aspects of an issue to suit you, & overplaying others.Still on the Iranian mig 29s

    http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41172

    American Forces Press Service
    WASHINGTON, Nov. 10, 1997 – The United States recently bought 21 nuclear-capable MiG-29 fighter jets from the Republic of Moldova to keep them out of the hands of potential enemies, Defense Secretary William S. Cohen announced Nov. 4.” Goes on “The jets were purchased under the Cooperative Threat Reduction Program aimed at reducing, controlling and eliminating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction from the former Soviet Union.
    The program, also known as the Nunn-Lugar program, has helped draw down nuclear capabilities in Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. ”

    Going by your line of argument, i reckon you will say,”No no, the US arent fools to state their real intentions, etc etc.

  203. “””Very clever of you to downplay the iranian element & overplay the aggressor training element.The strategy fits you well. But it isnt very dificult to see through your tactic.

    Going by your line of argument, i reckon you will say,”No no, the US arent fools to state their real intentions, etc etc.”””
    Ofcourse, Those are statements from the official quarters. The existence of Mig aggressors were officially denied till 2006, That is a blinding fact. That quote and the news you posted happened on 1998. What part of Iran doesn’t have a Nuclear weapon didn’t you get? And what makes you think Iran wasn’t simply getting it for their Airforce? Those Migs are PRIMARILY designed for BVR & Dogfights, not a nuclear weapon platform. And the ACIG site clearly states that the main intention was to test the Fulcrums.

  204. & to quote you, to illustrate your own back & forth-highlight-one-aspect-downpay-the-other style, you say “And it is true that Kenyan’s F-5 most probably doesn’t have BVRs.”
    It is TRUE …MOST PROBABLY doenst have..
    Ignoring the merits of your argument & just looking at the structure of your logic ( which btw, is evident in all your points), you state a word indicating absolute certainity (TRUE), then quickly follow it with those indicating absolute ambiguity (MOST PROBABLY), all under the same breath.
    That, is what we mean argument for the sake of it. or splitting hairs, if you like.

  205. “””It is TRUE …MOST PROBABLY doenst have..
    Ignoring the merits of your argument & just looking at the structure of your logic ( which btw, is evident in all your points), you state a word indicating absolute certainity (TRUE), then quickly follow it with those indicating absolute ambiguity (MOST PROBABLY), all under the same breath.”””
    Ofcourse, most probably means, the probability is greater than .5 and less than 1. Which means, the PROBABILITY of Kenyan F-5s HAVING BVR is LESS than 50%. Got it? I base my assumptions on the fact that F-5 upgrades doesn’t mention kenya. Saying true is perfectly valid in that statement since it enhances the assumption made to arrive at the probability.

  206. Whats your point? Fine,you state that the migs were PRIMARILY designed for BVR & Dogfights, not a nuclear weapon platform. You ignore the globalsecurty post that says they were nuclear capable.
    All in an effort to deny that they could not fit in the grand nuclear scheme of Iran, i.e development & deployment. You “prove” it by stating (correctly by the way), that the agressor role was officially denied till 2006. But you ignore the obvious fact that if you publicly (as US did) acquire a sophisticated enemy aircraft, you will OBVIOUSLY use/study it for adverserial purposes.No need for anyone to mention that.
    Or is it that you say that the migs were not nuclear capable?
    Or is it that you are stating that the migs were acquired PRIMARILY for their BVR & Dogfights attributes, & their nuclear capability on comes as a BONUS?
    Or is it your position that Iran hadnt shown interest in the migs,& US only used that story to cover the aggresor training intentions? If so, please provide credible links.

  207. “I base my assumptions on the fact that F-5 upgrades doesn’t mention kenya.”

    http://www.encompass.info/news/page10599.html

    On the financial highlghts Rockwell Collins does mention Kenya “Rockwell Collins was selected by Jordan Aeronautical Systems Company (JAC) for the upgrade of F-5 fighter aircraft. Rockwell Collins Government Systems will provide a Rockwell Collins Business and Regional avionics system to JAC for the upgrade of 15 F-5 fighter aircraft which are to be resold to the Kenyan Air Force. The contract also provides for the initial installation and additional modification support for an estimated 14 months.

    Your assumption falls flat.Same as your use of TRUE to enhance the assumption made to arrive at the probability…

  208. lol.. I did not ignore the obvious fact, it was risasi. I was arguring that Mig-29 aggressors are used to train pilots to face Mig-29s which the enemies of U.S have.

    “””Or is it that you are stating that the migs were acquired PRIMARILY for their BVR & Dogfights attributes, & their nuclear capability on comes as a BONUS?
    Or is it your position that Iran hadnt shown interest in the migs,& US only used that story to cover the aggresor training intentions? If so, please provide credible links.”””
    I have heard the Migs can carry tactical nukes, but it is just a bonus. It was mainly designed as a BVR and Dogfighter. Iran did show interest, but they didn’t go around asking the moldovians whether they are nuclear capable. And why would they? they don’t even have nuclear material U235 Pu239, let alone a working nuclear bomb. And if when a country like iran has such a limited amount of nukes why would it risk using Fighter which can be shot down, than using ballistic missiles which are difficult to shoot down.
    And I have given link to say U.S nuke story is a cover. And it’s a fact that Mig-29s were designed primarily to shoot down other fighters.

    “The Mikoyan MiG-29 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-29; NATO reporting name: ‘Fulcrum’) is a 4th generation jet fighter aircraft designed in the Soviet Union for an air superiority role.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29

  209. “””Your assumption falls flat.Same as your use of TRUE to enhance the assumption made to arrive at the probability…”””
    You are talking out of context. You know we are talking about BVR upgrades, don’t you? I did plainly say upgrades to type fast, but you know that I meant BVR upgrades, because that is what the argument is about. Fine kenya upgrades it’s F-5s, good for it, now what upgrades?
    And I’ve checked Rockwell collins, it seems they don’t upgrade Radars(required for BVR missiles), only GPS, radio etc etc.

  210. This debate is gone stale, guys, any more and you are going to stink. IZZO, drop this line, and lets get more discussion going. You will not out-argue this FIJI guy not unless you borrow his strategy to overwhelm with an overkill on peripheral data, Man!! You recall Saddam Hussein and his promise of the Mother of all Battels?!!
    You wanna hear about the KIVU and ITURI before I deploy back or what? RISASI where at those pics you promised us all, soldier?

  211. Ok, mate, I drop the line. Its going round in circles,& getting stale, as you rightly point out. Tell me, what is so “hot” about Kivu & Ituri?

  212. Hey guys, can we move on? There must be lotsa not too well known subjects we could exchange stuff on that is topical and pertinent to today’s security situation in this region. Can we bury this Fiji guy and the F5 debate now? There is a hell of a lot going on along the Somali border both off and on shore – can we start this going then?

  213. Hey guys, hold your horses and not be too quick to criticise the purchase of used F-5 from Jordan. As some of the writers correctly pointed out these fighter jets are still in use in some of the European countries, v.z. Greece, Turkey, etc.

    The plane, though old in design (and therefore considered obsolete by some contributors here) are still capable flying machines with low maintainence requirements. Did you guys know that on the average for $1 spent of buying the plane you need to spend $4 on its maintainence during its proposed serviceable life span? So its a question of balance when you have a limited budget but yet want to have a fighter force of sufficient qualitiy as well as reasonable quantity.

    In fact, with proper upgrading of its electronics and avionics like incorporation of phase-array radar, etc the F-5 can still be a potent plane in the air. Singapore’s F-5 have been upgraded with the latest avionics and electronics (now renamed F-5S) and are a match for any other modern advanced combat planes (except for the top range state of the art jets like the F-22, F-35, and to a lesser extent the F-15E or the MiG-29 and Su-27, etc) and they retain their interceptor role, although the front line strike role being left in the hands of the capable F-16, and deep strike and interdiction role being taken over by their new F-15 SG fighters. The point I am making is that the most advanced air force in South East Asia which is operating top of the range advance jet fighters
    (F-15 SG) is still using the F-5 – that puts paid to the mistaken belief that it is an antiquated jet. It all depends on what the operator has made of it – whether it has serviced it to top flight level and incorporation of modern equipment, for instance, replacement of analog ones with digital outfits, HOTAS, HUD, etc. However, there is a limit to what can be upgraded, and this will surely be replacement of flight system to fly-by-wire, which in essence is a total replacement of the whole aircraft.

    And lastly, but not least, it all depends on the quality of the training given to the fighter pilots, their flying experience, and exposure to exercises, etc. If they are not up to standard, giving them to fly the most advanced jets would not make any material difference. In the same light, well trained fighter pilots probably could out-manouvre and out-gun opposing lesser trained pilots flying more advanced jets

  214. guys,

    this issue fo the F5 is flying away with us……

    wapi captain farah, major amonde na akina Major Eric Kinuthia Mbugua watatue hii story coz atleast thay fly this very bird that we are being told is a junk ! by the way the word junk means

  215. guys,

    this issue fo the F5 is flying away with us……

    wapi captain farah, major amonde na akina Major Eric Kinuthia Mbugua watatue hii story coz atleast thay fly this very bird that we are being told is a junk ! by the way the word junk means Waste , any undesired thing or substance. Scrap , recyclable waste used to build new things.

    move on guys…….

  216. Hi guys,

    Does Kenya any missile programs including developing ballistic missiles.

  217. This whole F5 debate assumes overtones that I find insulting and unpalatable. That the African is so utterly hapless and stupid as to make national purchases in the Billions without due diligence. That our Lot is of the eternally duped, fooled by all, taking in third-grade equipment noone else wants nor can use!! Please give us some credit – some of the best brains in this country is Uniformed, widely acknowledged to be equal to the best competent and trained professionals. We know our stuff as well as the next man, the Command & Control Structures rigid enough to ensure quality and efficiency of action. This fella FIJI simply gets my goat up, with his condescending production that seeks to overwhelm with thunder without substance neither fire!! Defense Industry apologist is what I make him to be – the MVFaina was not randomly hijacked with just that cargo, but a result of a carefully exploited clandestine ops to ensure that further purchases of Military Hardware by Kenya reverted to traditional sources, to avoid the expected deluge of defections by other third-world countries to Russia, Ukraine, South Korea, China, Brazil, Argentina; and we all know it!

  218. This whole F5 debate assumes overtones that I find insulting and unpalatable. I should much like it to finally close altogether, fellas. That the African is so utterly hapless and stupid as to make national purchases in the Billions without due diligence. That our Lot is of the eternally duped, fooled by all, taking in third-grade equipment noone else wants nor can use!! Please give us some credit – some of the best brains in this country is Uniformed, widely acknowledged to be equal to the best competent and trained professionals. We know our stuff as well as the next man, the Command & Control Structures rigid enough to ensure quality and efficiency of action. This fella FIJI simply gets my goat up, with his condescending production that seeks to overwhelm with thunder without substance neither fire!! Defense Industry apologist is what I make him to be – the MVFaina was not randomly hijacked with just that cargo, but a result of a carefully exploited clandestine ops to ensure that further purchases of Military Hardware by Kenya reverted to traditional sources, to avoid the expected deluge of defections by other third-world countries to Russia, Ukraine, South Korea, China, Brazil, Argentina; and we all know it!

  219. Too many inteligent and educated Africans dwell on this fiction of the Goodness of Man to Man, and underate the capacity of Western Governments to ensure the fulfillment of their unique Strategic Objectives at the expense of all else. They created this somali Pirates, to serve their so-called international strategic interests, to fill in a gap of surveillance that existed with the collapse of all manner of Authority in Somalia. The whole purpose was to keep a strategic watch on the transitory traffic through the vital Red Sea channel – who goes and with what. And when appropriate to their interest, to set their dogs on any ship that carried cargo not to their liking. The advanced real-time satelite navigational equipment that these illiterate Somali pirates have is not only beyond civilian shopping abilities (despite the millions on ransoms paid) but is essentially of advanced military nature and utilization. Their real-time spot-on Intel isnt cobbled together by some third-rate primitive pirate organization, but strategically fed from complex and extensive satellite and human surveillance. In truth not even Al Queda possess the capacity and resources to be privy of all that these simpleton brigands clearly have in their arsenal of Equipment and Intel. Essentially these pirates became an extension of the so-called International Community’s) an euphemism for European and American Hedonistic Hegemony) military and foreign policy, interpretation both, and a vital component of both. But inevitably this soon unraveled and some of these pirates went rogue and opportunistic operations undertaken without sanction by their Western Intelligence masters, and therefore necessitating the large-scale and coordinated Caucasian military efforts to take back their precious Red Sea Channel. The Fourth Shipment of T-72 from the Ukraine was doomed before it left Odessa, the entire transaction long disapproved by these so-called International Community, because it broke the mold long established of third-world military spending that supported their Defense Industries. Earlier shipments were hush-hush clandestine in nature, shrouded in an intricate covert operation to obviate exactly this reaction by these Western charlatans. MVFIANA was tracked from the port of embankment to the point at which a motley crew of poorly armed and trained brigands hijacked – and the international media expose’ was all part and parcel of this carefully orchestrated scheme by the Western Intelligence Organizations. Contribution in certain Blogs were engineered and authored by these same organizations, and flogged to ensure that debate stayed alive and dissemination as widely as possible. Damn this naivety of Africans!!

  220. Looking at your above theory,it looks somewhat credible. But again,why did that american navy spokeman keep saying that the tanks were destined for GoSS, contradicting the kenyan position on the matter.The position they took contradicts your theory. How do you explain the objective of their statements?

  221. It has also been said that the pirates have agents/scouts monitoring the ships, say at the suez canal,+ from publicly available data on shipping vessels schedules, to work out how long a targeted vessel will take after sailing off,ex UK, through the Suez Canal,Red Sea etc. With GPS technology, a mother vessel & a few motorized small boats, I dont think the pirates would be a so much of a larger scheme that you’ve implied. I think they are just a bunch of young chaps without opportunities,with easy access to RPGs, & nothing to loose. You add the lure of getting the millions of ramsom money, i bet they would need any 3rd party prompting to go fishing ships instead of fish.

  222. meant “…they wouldNT need any 3rd party prompting to go fishing ships instead of fish.

  223. Central to the Strategic Interest of the West, as concerns this Greater East Africa Region comprising of the 10 Countries, is the continued unexploitation of strategic industrial minerals needed to ensure continuity of their Economies unto the 21st Century, It is not a secret that the Saudi Peninsula Oil Fields will deplete completely in about 50 years maxi. And that OUR region shares the same oil-bearing strata as the Saudi Peninsula, while the Central African Countries together have critical industrial minerals vital to the West. DRC alone has the greatest concentration of every manner of these minerals desperately demanded by the West, and small wonder that there has never been responsible representative Governance there nor peace for the last 100 years. It might not be well known that Somalia has the largest know offshore oil reserves in the World, as well as huge deposits of industrial minerals. But Western Economic Strategy has for the last 60 years revolved around strategies that ensure this mineral wealth remains unexploited and a strategic reserve for as long as is possible, intrinsic to which are the frequent conflicts and bad governance that has bedevilled this region for the last fifty years. It is instructive to recall that the justification for the Colonisation of Africa was mainly two-fold (a) raw materials for their expanding Economies driven by expanding populations,(b) consumer market for their industrial goods. These reasons were even more poignant at the end of colonisation than at the beginining of itm and Colonisation couldnt have ended without longterm safeguards build into whatever arragements the Africans were forced to accept by their Colonial Masters. Therefore, the key to our emancipation has and will always be the controlled exploitation of our mineral wealth to facilitate economic growth. In Kenya, the large scale presence of these industrial minerals is not a secret to any Government and Military person who has served in the north and southeast of the Nation, but for as long as KANU remained in power, serious government intentions to begin exploitation never went beyond the wishful expression of it. The defeat of KANU and a new political face allowed this consideration to occupy center stage in our Strategic Planning and leading to the first phase being the expansive and expensive rearmament of our Military Forces which is key to this planning. You will no doubt constate that since the KANU Defeat, Kenya has surprisingly stumbled from one calamitous event after another, almost as if events were choreographed and puppeteered, while our erstwhile Western Friends speak from both sides of their mouth on every occasion and every subject. I think that thinking persons must question events as they happen particularly what benefits is gained by the other players outside our national drama – the socalled International community.

  224. I think you are being alarmist Ole Nkarei. The DRC has already given unfereted access to its mines to the Chinese who are at this very moment developing that country at a very fast rate.

    Yes the western imperial ideology still exists but i doubt it is as evil as you point it out to be.

    They have alot of investments in the country starting from safaricom all the way to beach hotels and universities.

    Lastly how does rearmament in Kenya prevent them from achieving their aims. They can destroy our whole military with one F22 Raptor.

    So please be more objective and let us stop blaming the west for everything as though they are God Like.

  225. IZZO when chris murungaru dramatically cancelled the Landrover resupply / refitting tender and “voted East”, and the police force received landcruisers instead, the largest Rover factory in Britain closed down inside a year, with the loss of approximately 2500jobs. Rover subsequently went into merger to salvage itself, and other related events also followed consequently. The short of this is that the greatest spur to economic growth is government expenditure since Government is the largest corporate body in any country with the most money. IN the West, Government spending revolves around their Defense Industries, which survive only because of an intricate and expansive export policy to ensure consumption of the Products beyond domestic. It is a warped Subsidies regimen that they operate, and millions of their people depend on these Defense Industries. Any abrupt changes in traditional client-market result in substantive disruption in their National Balance, and are treated as hostile actions by friendly governments. Hence responses are similarly couched and intended to restablish the status quo of supply prior to the disruptions. All manner of methods are used including their pliant Media that dishes out persistent disinformation to a gullible international population. Therefore there are no contradictions in my earlier posting regarding the T-72 and the MVFaina drama, I reckon.

  226. Karanja. Kenya’s threat matrix has never been and will most probably never be the West. I dont consider it likely that Kenya should enter into hostile action against the British or the Americans all. All wars in african are basically proxy wars, initiated and financed for one reaon or another by Western Interests, and if you are unaware of this fact I think you need to look again. Kenya’s rearmament is to develop an aggressive deterrent in the event that exploitation of our industrial minerals should ignite a proxy war or sorts – and this is not beyond imagination even to some civilian type like you. Were these equipment sourced from our traditional Western Suppliers, not a wimp would have been heard by anyone outside government and military circles. Lastly I must debunk you and others from this absurd notion that this time and place suddenly those that enslaved and dehumanised us for centuries have somehow transformed themselves to be our defenders against ourselves. We have not yet buried all the victims of the atrocious savagely of our war of independence, mate!!

  227. Karanja, the chinese are not doing philanthropic work in the DRC, mate!! There are there for the same reasons the Americans have been there for the last fifty years. To be there, the Chinese have had to place a whole state-of-the-art newest Carrier Group in the Indian Ocean for the first time ever, and begun firstly by encircling the DRC with Economic postings in Countries not distant from the DRC that emphatically declarec their strategic interests to all interested and competing parties – read the West!! Whileas I am not claiming the Chinese are any better, the very fact of thinking outside the DRC Traditional Box is general reason for optimism for the DRC people.
    Give it a cautious chance,friend, eh?

  228. Even if what you allege is true. We already know we are getting better business deals from the Chinese. I dont see how we can be exploited again unless offcourse we fight our silly tribal wars.

    You seem to have a disdain for civilians, dont forget we pay you to protect us so you better do your job and so it well.

    If you want to solve this African problem of being exploited all the time. The simplest thing is to connect a railway line from mombasa to lagos through Kigali with interconnecting lines to all major African capitals.

    Also adding a single east african currency to replace the dollar will be a wise move. However our corrupts leaders are too busy stealing to think of such a plan.

    God come down and save us from these leaders.

  229. You are shockingly simplistic in your prescriptive ideas, which disparage serious discussion on the incredible challenges aired here with such carelessly banding-about of correct-talk. Your blog site has similar quality. How do those silly suggestions you have given at all respond to the queries you rhetorically posed? I give up.

  230. Those are very hard punches on Karanja. Nkarei, be a bit gentler on the fela. You are killing an innocent chap. I guess his point is, there are no guarantees that, with our polarized leadership, that rearming will be of help. we might turn the arms agst each other – with or without external input – instead of “the enemy from outside”. Perhaps, very focused leadership is what will get us out of the morass we are in.Not chaps who take kickbacks at every opportunity.In other words, roughly, we ourselves constitute say 60% of our “threats”.40% is the west/others. But you seem to imply the west/other make up 60% of our problems, & we our only fault is 40%.

  231. Dont worry IZZO i can take care of myself. Nkarei has resorted to his Maasai aggresiveness. He should know i have the blood of both my Maasai ancestors and mau mau freedom fighters i am not intimidated in any way whatsoever!!!

    I think Nkarei being a soldier views everything as a Zero sum game.

    We need partnerships with west because they have the technology and knowledge and should we need to buy there equipment once in a while let us do so to enhance partnerships. I doubt they would go to all those lengths to establish control over the aforesaid African markets.

    The west is not as united as everyone seems to beleive just 60 years ago they massacred themselves in the WW2 killed 100 million during the War time alone. So dont make it seem Black and White

    Our enemies are the corrupt elite who play tribe against tribe when we are all one.

    Another the west is dying off at an alarming rate. By 2050 Africa will have double the population of the West .
    China in its own interests is helping us stand on our feet and what we need to do know is educate as many people as possible.

    Surely God is in the side of those who are humble and call out his name.

  232. jambo guys I was caught with shuli shuli zaujenzi wa taifa. i can see kura ya maoni was floated against that Asian guy. i had some question which were to nail him sincerely. the authenticity of the TWR list that he posted. .like what izzo asked. And Ati the Usa brought the MiG29 secretly and nobody knows it but him. Mshenzi sana. i think that guy came here under the blessing of Nairobi chronicle ,but this again is my assumption.

    Tom Pic za east African airforces i forward the to Nairobi chronicle around a month ago.

    i would like to welcome Karaja and would like to inform him to be updated about the current affairs or you might end up in a point where “you can’t see the forest for the trees”
    let me go thro, the blog and see where i can jump in.

  233. .ati the MiG could not dogfight the F-5 because it was slow moving. then every country should have a slow moving Biplane for dogfight defense. Am trying to imagine 1 guy can run faster then the other but faster guy is having trouble in catching the slow guy. the russia had to save face after testing the F-5 with a statement.

    on the BvR missile technology it is an application that can be installed in a F-5. Bora pesa zetu tuu kwani nini?. kenya has more advance missile technology upgrade, manned, maintained and can be used anytime at a turn of the Key and a push of button. the missile systems down in mtongwe are more then x3 in price and technology then BvR system that operates in 2x2m area of a fighter. What am saying we have the expertise and have proved themselves

    i feel sad to see that guys think that the BvR is a difficult missile for the country. i guess guys haven,t had of the missile depot at Mombassa

  234. Now,this is unacceptable. Nairobi Chronicle, where have you been hiding the said photos? for a whole month?

  235. IZZO – I stand correct, mate. Just that some of these arm-chair strategist do sometime go overboard giving opinions that only expose a thin lack of grasp of complicated matters Military. But you are spot on that a blog that is inflexible in the expression of all shades of opinions will not add much to the general debate furnished there in. Karanja, – please keep blogging, tis your right.
    Risasi, welcome back, and we look forward to reading of you – but the dogfight with FIJI ended when you splashed him smack into the Oldonyo Sabuk Hill – see his debris all over the hill,man?

  236. “””And Ati the Usa brought the MiG29 secretly and nobody knows it but him.”””
    Everyone knows about it including izzo & acig. Only people who are blinded by fanboyism can’t seem to understand that simple fact.

    “””.ati the MiG could not dogfight the F-5 because it was slow moving. then every country should have a slow moving Biplane for dogfight defense. Am trying to imagine 1 guy can run faster then the other but faster guy is having trouble in catching the slow guy. the russia had to save face after testing the F-5 with a statement. “””
    Oh god.. what part “slow speed combat” didn’t you get? The Mig-23 was made to fight in slow speed combat.. meaning combat taking place in slow speeds, whereas clearly it was designed for high speed. If it used it’s full engine power then it would just climb and dive on F-5′s ass. F-5 can’t climb and can’t turn into the turn circle of the mig due to low energy. Also that is precisely what would happen if you fight a propeller with a jet powered fighter. A propeller with a straight un-swept wing has unrivalled low speed maneuverability, but a jet fighter would just circle around with it’s high speed even though it’s turn radius is high, or use potential energy(climb and dive) to defeat the slow moving propeller. This is the reason why there aren’t propeller fighters around.

    “””i feel sad to see that guys think that the BvR is a difficult missile for the country. i guess guys haven,t had of the missile depot at Mombassa”””
    I don’t know if it is difficult or not to acquire in future, but Kenya doesn’t have a BVR capability now.

    “””This fella FIJI simply gets my goat up, with his condescending production that seeks to overwhelm with thunder without substance neither fire!!”””
    Are you blind or are you just ignorant?

    • Mr fuji
      This is Fanboy again. what you have been posting in this blog are your assumption. What you feel and think is true might not always necessary be it .I would like to see the authenticity of the following.

      1. Your TWR list.
      2. the only thing the Russia copy from the F-5 was its cockpit lay out
      3.The dog fights between the MiGs and the F-5 was at low speed.

      Because Wikipedia states that “the Russians acknowledged the F-5 was a very agile aircraft and at some speeds and altitudes better than the MiG-23M”
      From my understanding this statement means.” The F-5 was very agile compared to the MiGs and better then the MiGs in some speeds and altitude.” As simple as that. you say its only in low speed that the F-5 was better.

      i.e show me websites that backs this 3 assumptions you posted on the blog.

      • “””This is Fanboy again. what you have been posting in this blog are your assumption. What you feel and think is true might not always necessary be it.”””
        Assumptions? Assumptions are done when there are no facts/proofs around, Risasi the fanboy. Mathematics, physics, ACIG, Rockwell and other websites are not assumptions.

        “””Your TWR list.”””
        The empty weight and thrust is already given and is a fact, so just take the loaded weight of 3505kgs and calculate for yourself if you don’t believe the list. If you don’t believe the empty weight and thrust in that list then all you have to do is check wiki:

        “# Powerplant: 2× General Electric J85-GE-21B turbojet

        * Dry thrust: 3,500 lbf (15.5 kN) each
        * Thrust with afterburner: 5,000 lbf (22.2 kN) each”

        “# Empty weight: 9,558 lb (4,349 kg)”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5

        “””the only thing the Russia copy from the F-5 was its cockpit lay out”””
        What else is there to copy. If the Russians copied the F-5 then Mig-29(and Su-27) would have low set wings, not have a blended wing-fuselage, will have a wing undercarriage and shitty engines.

        “””The dog fights between the MiGs and the F-5 was at low speed.

        Because Wikipedia states that “the Russians acknowledged the F-5 was a very agile aircraft and at some speeds and altitudes better than the MiG-23M”
        From my understanding this statement means.” The F-5 was very agile compared to the MiGs and better then the MiGs in some speeds and altitude.” As simple as that. you say its only in low speed that the F-5 was better.”””

        What? How can you understand it like that when clearly Mig-23′s speed is mach 2.4 while F-5 is just 1.6. Read the wiki quote. It clearly says the Mig-23s were designed for HIGH SPEED missile attacks. I have pointed it before many many MANY times, and you are still failing to understand it…. How are you going to catch an opponent while you have poor TWR/energy and speed, even though your maneuverability is better(like a propeller against a jet fighter/ or a extreme agility of a propeller Japanese Zero against less agile U.S propeller planes)? Like I said, Mig-23′s top speed is mach 2.4, F-5 is just 1.6 – almost a mach difference. Also it can climb faster than a F-5 and can dive into F-5′s behind at it’s own leisure, how can you catch it in a vertical climb and match its high altitude? F-5′s max altitude is 15,800m while Mig-23 can reach 18,500 m. That’s almost a 3 Km height difference!! It’s simple physics which is driving the nations to develop more and more powerful engines to have a good TWR/energy.

      • Fuji
        lets leave out assumption. Give hard/soft copy proves.

        1. I have checked on ACIG and Rockwell website as you requested and nothing pops up. post the web links that show such similarity or calculation .
        2. on the F-5 engine data you have posted I have tried all ratio and calculation and nothing come close to the 0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II in you list.

        3. it stupid to take the power of an engine in ration of 3505 kg of fuel. this is not In representative of the entire weight of the aircraft of which the engine would push.

        this the right way of calculating TWR and the results are not any where closer to your list.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio#Calculation

        your posting are not even assumptions. There fabricated lies to suit you talk.

        By the way you have never told us which country you hail from.

  237. Make your point Mr. FIJI, and let is percolate if there is sense to your point. Cannot ram your opinions down people’s throats, friend. And you have been quiet expressive, really, as to have been persuasive. Give it a rest now.

  238. very very intresting blog spot …. for those with more than just opinion on the geo politics of our region thanks for the information . ole nkarei im sure im not the only one intrested in hearing about about your incursion into the drc and the goings on that are not in the news … also you mentioned about the llemi triangle and you were abit vague and threw in some military jargon that threw off what you were trying to say ….. from a military perspective what is kenyas position on the llemi triangle and in all threat assesments coming from the north .. should there be in incursions into the llemi triangle would that be considered and thus protected as kenyan sovereign land or is this a grey area as far as ownership . and finally … in relation to the said minerals in northern kenya and to a larger part the horn of africa … are we just talking about oil or are there other proven signifcant mineral . thanks . id appreciate feedback from anyone with factual or well though out ideas . thanks .

  239. Hallo and welcome Spinell. And yes, I have been a bit remise on my promise on the ITURI / NORTH KIVU, but I am working to get clearance to share in any quantity. I am certain you realise how ideal this sort of blog is for dissemination of info both credible and not so credible – if you know what I mean. Soon as I get past this, I will post whatever bits will pass. The ILEMI is a straightforward matter, though, its ownership beyond doubt and supported by the International conventions and law. The value of discord is now purely diversionary. Kenya’s claim is therefore actionable and all justifications applicable in the use of force to secure this claim. More later, mate.

  240. IIZZO, I cant let this query you asked me go unanswered -”why did that american navy spokeman keep saying that the tanks were destined for GoSS, contradicting the kenyan position on the matter.The position they took contradicts your theory. How do you explain the objective of their statements?”
    I gather that either you are Military or Intelligence. And if you are either, I am sure you will know that Counter-Intelligence avoids complicated Legend-building, seeking to build the Legend around a provable Truth. The further you stray from this Provable Truth, the greater the chances your Disinformation Strategy may unravel. No one is better at Disinformation than the American Military, and no one better at using the Media for this purpose. How else is it that 160000 Iraqis have died since 2001 and this has not generated any intelligent retrospective debate with the American People? Or the Slaughter the American Forces are perpetrating in Afghanistan without any moral backlash of the American People? So that the MVFIANA sting was a chereographed play of complex and numerous pieces, each of them dependant on the other, and triggering the animation of others. The truth is never the currency here, but the interpretation of Policy that answers to strategic interest of the Americans. Dismiss the Navy Spokesmans gibberish for just that. Buy the way, precisely because the term GoSS is ambivalent in definition (Kenya or South Sudan), ensured the success of Kenya’s Counter-strategy to get those Tanks into Kenya – that is before the MVFIANA Hijack blew the entire purchase up. We banked exactly on this and I think did a damn fine job at it, IZZO! Something to be proud of, eh?

  241. somewhere on this blog someone mentioned the other east african countries are playing catch up in terms of rearming and building military capacity . can anyone comment on what kenyas projected response is ….. are we looking to maintain military supremacy in the region thus up the arms race or are we just looking to maintain the capacity to deter foreign aggression .

  242. on oil in northern kenya/offshore … ole Nkaire i have seen u mention “information within govt and military circles ” that attests to the presence of significant oil reserves . can you give any more information on the available evidence or is everyone going by the loperot discovery and the data that suggests the presence of hydro carbons and ofcourse upcoming drill .

  243. in 2007 kenya army officers were touring the US trying to build training capacity to help train a ranger battalion in the process being formed . can anyone comment on how far the formation of this battalion has come since 2007 .

  244. Spinell – full disclose of what may still be classified data on as open site as this just aint gonna happen, mate – I aint no pilgrim,friend. On certain matters at the least, generalities must rule, and your demand for specifics must also be reciprocal. Gimme an Email address for direct communication?

  245. i completely understand ole nkarei …. my email is spinell250@gmail.com ………. i would greatly appreciate if you could over my above posts and give me all the information you can without compromising yourself or national security . eagerly awaiting .

  246. Spinell – you must be kindred. And thanks. I will make contact, and we can get to explore what is and is not.

  247. i’ll give some credit to Nkarei for being somewhat informed about military matters but on the other hand he dwells on conspiracy theories that according to his wildest imagination are orchestrated by the west.First,that kenya has reserves of oil and the west got its eyes on it is utterly ridiculous.U.s.a and western countries have an aggressive policy as we speak to abandon oil as a source of energy in any form by 2020 be it gosoline and as a resident of the U.S i can see it with my eyes,the new electric cars,new solar panels and wind turbines replacing generators that use oil.As a matter of fact Obama run on a platform of making the u.s.a fuel independent because according to him “we pay billions of dollars to the dictators in the middle east instead of developing alternative sources at home.” Quoting another U.S senator, “we in the U.S should have abandoned oil years ago and leave it to stone age and nomadic countries like kenya and tanzania.” All am saying is that all is out for you to see and this T 72 and other theoris are simply diverions and cheap material thats on sale to those who buy any junk.

  248. Used to wonder at the “uncle tom” label and how it was possible to be factual. But reading from Spearhead, I amazed at just how a few year of proximity to Western Culture indoctrinates supposed intelligent and educated rational Africans to the point of complete self denial -a typical “Uncle Tom” syndrome. And you wonder that Africans slaughter Africans at the behest of foreign Interests in the Congo, Angola, Mozambique, Rwanda, Burundi, Nigeria, Guinea, Ivory Coast, Senegal, Chad and Sudan!! And that we still have dinosaurs like Kagame, Meles and their ilk touted I(again by the West) as the best leadership coming from African – with 6million Africans Dead in the Great Lakes Region alone in the past six years as a direct consequence of Kagame’s murderous and parochial regime!! How shall we Afrikans ever emancipate ourselves from this perpetual condemnation to damnation if we cannot see beyond the usual, tired platitudes forever churned out by successful Western Governments? How is it possible that an educated African equates Western Interests with his African Interests? Where indeed is the convergence? How does your slaver become simultaneously your saviour? Indeed can one define the terminology “International Community” beyond the criteria of Caucasian identification? I am sadden to read Spearhead’s post – It is not about being a conspiracy theorist as Spearhead thinks, but a belated call to critically examine all traditional popular hypothesis by the simple basis of identifying the essential and clear point of departure of the all participants – what is their critical interest?. African village chiefs sold their African brothers to slavery, using arguments that are very much akin to those expressed by Spearhead in this blog. Who will save the gullible hapless Africanl!!

  249. “”” I have checked on ACIG and Rockwell website as you requested and nothing pops up. post the web links that show such similarity or calculation .”””
    I was talking about Air-Air kills and BVR when talking about those websites.

    “””on the F-5 engine data you have posted I have tried all ratio and calculation and nothing come close to the 0.58 – F-5E Tiger-II in you list

    3. it stupid to take the power of an engine in ration of 3505 kg of fuel. this is not In representative of the entire weight of the aircraft of which the engine would push.

    this the right way of calculating TWR and the results are not any where closer to your list.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio#Calculation

    your posting are not even assumptions. There fabricated lies to suit you talk..”””
    Again with your fabricated lie nonsense just because you can’t calculate, and it doesn’t suit your beloved F-5. The wiki link clearly says it is obtained by dividing thrust by weight. For F-5 the calculation is 10,000lbf / (9558 + 7729 lbs)

    Fuel and weapons load is 3505 kgs =7729 lbs.

    “””By the way you have never told us which country you hail from.”””
    Why? I already told you I’m from asia/asian descent. I come from a country where neither mine nor my neighbors/enemies country operate F-5 in the past nor the present nor in the future.

    • . I asked for the authenticity of the TWR list, a soft/hard copy from a website and you posted this….
      Assumptions? Assumptions are done when there are no facts/proofs around, Risasi the fanboy. Mathematics, physics, ACIG, Rockwell and other websites are not assumptions

      And when you realized that I checked the above website and found out you were lying you changed to…….. Fuji, on October 17th, 2009 at 9:08 pm Said:
      I was talking about Air-Air kills and BVR when talking about those websites

      I thought you had out grown those tactics.Take your time to understand the questions before answering

      So for the benefit of doubt I will ask you again the same question in simplified English.
      Copy and paste the website link, if they are any that use 3505kg factor of fuel + weapon to arrive to TWR.

      I guess the answer is they is no such list and nobody uses 3505kg ratio to arrive at a TWR. It only exist in you mind and nowhere else. Otherwise I challenge to be a man enough and produce a website.

      The right formula is: Thrust of the engines / Aircrafts weight full of fuel
      A true ratio.

      It so absurd to use 3505kg factor of fuel+weapon as a ratio for all fighter what so ever it size are. For instance taking the F-15K as an example it carries 6100kg of fuel let alone weapons. almost x2 more then your silly 3505fuel+weapon factor. so with 3505kg of fuel and weapons your saying the F-15K should go into battle in quarter tanks full with bullets and white handkerchief as it weapons. You clear don’t know what you talking about. And if you do know, produce a website that second you list and 3505kg ratio calculation.

      • “””I thought you had out grown those tactics.Take your time to understand the questions before answering”””
        With a fan boy like you around, I was just being cautious. You would even say everything was an assumption to fulfill your F-5 fantasies.

        “”” So for the benefit of doubt I will ask you again the same question in simplified English.
        Copy and paste the website link, if they are any that use 3505kg factor of fuel + weapon to arrive to TWR.
        I guess the answer is they is no such list and nobody uses 3505kg ratio to arrive at a TWR. It only exist in you mind and nowhere else. Otherwise I challenge to be a man enough and produce a website.

        The right formula is: Thrust of the engines / Aircrafts weight full of fuel
        A true ratio.”””
        So finally you saw the calculations are accurate, and now you are changing your tune to questioning the authenticity of 3505 kgs. Once a fanboy always a fanboy, he would never give up his fanboy fantasies. hahaha If you had reading skills you would’ve noticed many TWRs. In the same Wiki page you see F-15′s TWR for light, nominal and full fuel loads, and also it generally mentions full take off weight TWR. And the full fuel load TWR which wiki borrowed from http://www.fighterplanes.tk website, that website is displaying the TWR for 3505 kgs as clearly unbiased & biased respectively(since a comparison has to be done equally without any bias). So there you have the website you were looking for. And F-15′s larger fuel tank does not mean it has to to be filled with full fuel. If you fill it with 2.5 tonnes of fuel & 1 tonne of weapon with a external fuel tank, it would fly just fine and when the fight begins it can just drop the tank. Infact F-15′s TWR of 1.6 it was flying with even less fuel. Also Mig-19 can even carry 3505 kgs, but if calculated it’s twr is greater than F-5 because of it’s engines. TWR mainly concentrates on its engines, if you see the list, the difference between the engines and empty weight is greater for fighters above F-5, hence the TWR advantage those fighters have.
        I can’t believe you’ve missed all that but you only saw the full fuel TWR . How is that even possible? Are you drunk or are you on drugs, fanboy?

  250. Responding to again outrageous allegations implied here by Nkarei about africans being brain washed and the west shoving their interests down our throats,i’ll be the one to tell you that even here in america black americans blame their misfortunes to uncle tom.An african will never solve his owm problems and when they slaughter each other in numbers,again the west is to blame and america,britain and france are to blame.the main question is,if you africans were not dumb enough,would you dare to slaughter yourselves on behalf of uncle tom?Dont you africans have the brain to manipulate the west to slaughterer themselves?Again all am saying is that its the way you wonna look at it.If your goverment allocates massive water catchment areas to some african fools and the land goes dry,again the west has planted something in our airspace at night to stop african rain!Ask youself why some countries in africa like Botswana are doing so well! Why is egypt though not run by africans doing so good itself being a desert?Nkarei the soldier is a man who remotely knows some planning but Nkarei the so called elite is a dwarf and a nomadic blogger!NO BAD FEELINGS.

  251. Thank you, Spearhead. Proves my point exactly. No need for a riposte really.
    Out.

    • Nkarei whats your point?Did you not argue that the T 72s and other obsolete weapons on mv faina are meant to protect the supposedly oil reserves that the west reserved somewhere in Kenya once oil runs out in the middle east?did you not argue that all the misfortutunes facing africa are perpetuated by the west?did you not argue that 6 millions africans have mssacred themselves on behalf of uncle tom?did you not argue that the master who enslaved us cannot be our saviour?
      my point is this,if an old fashioned african commits suicide he will probably blame it on the west and some uncle tom perpetuated theory.Africans were enslaved fine.we were colonised fine and if you cannot live with that its too unfortunate.that was then.we cannot keep on blaming the west and nurturing some wild imaginations that the west is always up to something.like those old T 72s and those wild theories………..what is absolete T 72 supposed to protect 20 years from now when the west supposedly comes to exploit our oil?Can it even save an african from himself? Call me naive or any other term in your dictionary but ill tell you for a fact that an African is better of with a white man riding on his back.like ocampo for example.I admire Nkarei tenacity in his convictions no matter how much old school he is but ill tell you africans that you have to direct your energies from blaming the west.To the contrary the west has always saved you from yourselves!

  252. As for the reason why 160,000 iraqs and 5000+ american soldiers have died without any outcry,first its important to note that most of those iraqs are victims NOT of american imperialism but of fellow iraqs who are fanatics of religious ideology that has plagued this part of the world for so long.its the same problem in palestine that defies any known phenomenal whereby suicide bombers engage in this callous and descipicable acts of killing every one within their range of this weaponized self and regardless of their just course to fight for their own country,you cannot tell me that this is the best way to deal with this.Those of us who have lived here in the U.S knows that Americans believe in serving and 5000 dying is not in vain for this as americans will tell you is a nation forged not in talikg the lesser and easy road but a higher difficult roads of war so as the world can be a better place.If not for America countries like Germany,Japan and iraq that wonna own the world would have done it long time ago.Someone has to take a gun and fight!

  253. Your world view is astounding! I find no kind words in response. I will let others to make the effort if they find any energy and gain in doing so. But Man, you are quite something! And by the way, your understanding of the meaning of “Uncle Tom” exposes your literacy level – would be advisable to research on it some more.
    I am redeploying next week, and therefore will finally give this blog some peace. Good luck.

  254. Nrarei my brother i know i have something to learn from you but certainly it won’t and will never be the defination of uncle tom.With all the intent and good will that “uncle tom” is supposed to imply,i mean the rescue he is supposed to offer,you shoot yourselves in the foot when you praise and beg him for all the relieve and then turn around and blame him for world problems.This is distorted logic.However,just like ive maintained here and elsewhere,when an african becomes a manly man,a cow will give birth to a hen.Its something that will never happen.
    I know you have no kind words for me,a man who has taken you behind the burn and told you what other africans could not tell you-the truth.
    I admire you and trust you with the Gun and i wish you the best in your deployment.By the way i also admire your english command.Not many soldiers can do that.

  255. …………………………………..and by the way if you wonna talk about literacy level,i welcome this debate for i’ve always made to believe that soldiers have nothing beyold high school carriculum.Convince me that you are the master of perfect knowledge.

  256. Spearhead,Go to the min of defence website, key people, to get a general feel of the education levels of the military of key people.

    http://www.mod.go.ke/?page_link=people

    Also research abit more CGS General Tonje’s reforms in the military, which included pegging future promotions to academic performance, among other things,requiring all officers to undergo university level education if they are to be legible for promotions.

  257. In a nutshell, the reforms envisaged that beginning in July 2012, no Kenyan Major will for instance be promoted to Lt.-Colonel without a Masters of Science degree in Military Science. The reforms were initiated before yr 2000.Thus,your impressions about the military are not up to date.

  258. Izzo, thanks mate. Silence of the Lambs, is what I am now.

  259. ………………………….there is a big difference between what the envisioned reforms harbor and the situation on the ground.Am not implying that we dont have educated men in our millitary all am saying is that perhaps most of them especially the foot soldiers know nothing beyold mole concept.And i insist perhaps!What is the literacy level of soldiers on the barracks and not the one you foresee once the reforms are in place?

  260. Hey! What happened to the issue driven high quality blog I I have been following all along? Its degenrating into personalities now.

  261. i agree with you ” fly on the wall … spear head any ignorant uninformed kenyan/african can articulate what you are trying to ! but things/the world is not that black and white and u need to study the grey in the world because from they way you talk it seems you havent .

  262. THE SPEAR HEAD,

    “By the way i also admire your english command.Not many soldiers can do that….”, WHAAAAAAAT ?

    Your statement above bothers me, Did you (do you…) know that English is the official language in kenya and Kiswahili the national language ? ama you meant in other countries ? have you noticed that soldiers that are currently being recruited are very well educated ? have you ever attended ANY recruitment sessions in kenya in any part of the country ? YOU WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THAT COMMENT coz You’d be shocked mpaka ushangae ! HEBU RESEARCH ON LITERACY AND ENROLLMENT LEVELS IN KENYA then review your comment once more. as far as the education sector in kenya is concerned i could tell you soooo much coz after all am a technical teacher !!!!!!!!!!!

  263. THE SPEAR HEAD,

    oooh………………guess what, i have my former students serving the kenyan forces i.e MAB has 1 male, langata has 1 female, 15 KA mariakani has 1 male, 20th para has 1 male, Navy mtongwe has 5 males and finaly NSIS has 1 male !!!!! BTW 1 LEFT MAB and joined USAF as a logistics officer and is CURRENTLY in germany. i know what they were capable of then and believe thay are good enough to serve their motherland as soldiers in whatever capacity they are deployed to ….. and am one very proud teacher as far as every student i have ever taught is concerned THEY ALL SPEAK WONDERFUL ENGLISH AND DO DELIVER, :) !

  264. hai microprocessor,
    you are all over the map.its not possible to deceiver what you are really saying.i mean you are equating speaking english with being learned and knowledgeable.You also seem to say that being in school is equivalent to being smart.Like you havent heard of educated fools by which most of the Kenyans are anyway.Why do you think the country is so run down yet those running it are educated or as you would say it ,they have been to school? Being to school and grasping the necessary are two different things.

  265. Spinell, Microprocessor, have you all yet not heard the saying that quality or lack of it in discussions define people? Responding to this sort of colourless scatterbrained contribution that makes generalised subjective accusations lacking substantiable facts just aint worthy the effort – see to what depth it has driven this blog? I advise you all to put this Speahead fella out of his misery – simply ignore him. The alternative is to be dragged into the mire of the loathesome ignorance he clearly wallows in. Positive Learning after all preceeds from an acknowledgement a of lack of a desired knowledge, which is not manifested in the arrogance of his contribution. Just throw in the towel, and lets get a move on!!

  266. Microprocessor – correct me if I am wrong, isnt the terminology “Uncle Tom’ a derogatory definition for slaves who compromised themselves to please their slavers? Or is it indeed in reference to their slaver? coined during the enslavement of the africans in the USA, and essentially defining the two categories the developmed during the struggle to survive Slavery? Anyone, please?

  267. Republican presidential nominees and Republican convention since the end of the Civil War opposed terrorism against blacks, opposed lynching, opposed denying blacks a real right to vote, and supported equal legal rights for blacks. Republican congresses passed the constitutional amendments that gave blacks freedom, equal rights, and the vote. These congresses also passed the very civil rights laws that allowed blacks to win their first victories in the battle for equal rights. Republican presidents appointed blacks to executive offices.

    Democrat platforms and candidates were conspicuously silent on these issues and liberal Democrat icons, like Woodrow Wilson, re-segregated the federal civil service (desegregated by Republican presidents) and fired, en masse, all the blacks in the federal government that he could.

    Why then do so many black “leaders” support this political party which has been consistently hateful toward them and which has made them “bought” votes in elections, whose real interests are simply ignored by both political parties because they always vote Democrat?

    Southern overlords had both “house slaves” and “field slaves.” Those slaves who lived in the mansion had special, privileged status. This dual status continued in the de facto slavery of blacks after the Civil War. Certain cowardly blacks were left alone and even thrown trinkets, while those blacks who stood up for the rule of law and the principles of equality were lynched, their children whipped to death, their homes terrorized.

    Some blacks became “Uncle Toms” and others stood against the evil of Democrat feudal rule. Which brings us to the origin of the use of “Uncle Tom” as a pejorative term. When a black man felt that he could no longer resist racist whites, he did something which black women in the South called “Crossing the Jordan River.”

    Such a black man would no longer try to fight for his rights as a man, but instead became an “Uncle Tom” – the downcast, eye-rolling caricature of lazy, shiftless blacks. But what exactly did “Crossing the Jordan River” mean? What act did that signify? What surrender by a black man so enraged black women, whose lives and the lives of their children were surrendered to generations of bigotry? “Crossing the Jordan River” meant that the black man gave up his allegiance to the Republican Party and registered as a Democrat.

  268. Now, that is quality information, M. And many thanks for this. Beyond doubts, then, it is clear that the strident voice that arrogantly touted his supposedly “higher than Army” education and knowledge was illiterate to all intentions and purposes, being a mile wide wrongwith his interpretation of this terminology. This army dude had some inkling of it, at the least, eh??

    • ole Nkarei,

      spinell is perfectly right. wikipedia says of the term thus:

      Uncle Tom is a pejorative term for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to white authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation.[1] The term comes from the title character of American writer Harriet Beecher Stowe’s 1852 novel Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Critical and popular views of both the character and the novel have shifted over time,[2] leading to the shift in the term’s use.

      In the novel the Uncle Tom character is a Christian martyr, morally superior to his white owners in an antebellum fiction whose subtext was an argument that the institution of slavery was immoral. Numerous adaptations altered the depiction substantially, often rendering him feeble, servile, or a race traitor. These adaptations, along with critical distaste for the original character’s passivity, contributed to the strongly negative connotations of the name in modern popular use…….. etc

      as for spear head..i concur with you…he needs no responce. i was pissed off by his insinuations about KENYAN SOLDIERS, some of whom are my former students, some are my bros, friends, …. its like he is still living in the days of my grandfather who was a senior sergeant in the Kings African Rifles. thanx Ole for that tough Love !

  269. Going to the internet and looking up how the term uncle tom was conjured and applied in 17th century and then shoving it down our throat on this blog does not imply anything.Like i told Tom Nkarei,in modern times the term is a reference to the master( in this case is U.s.a) who is purported to answer all our cries ,our savior to rescue us while on the other hand a master who gives tough love by stabbing us on the back by shoving his interests down our guts and deeply caring less and thats the popular connotation of the word.It seems like am dealing with typical soldiers here and in a language that a soldier will uhnderstand,let me tell you who is uncle tom in todays use anhd not the 16th century……………….it is america which in essence takes from us and enslaves the world all in the name of democracy,justice and what have you.if you think am nuts,no doubt an african has ruined hisself and his continent coz of this ignorance.
    Icalled you guys old school and you thought i was crazy but now look who is going to the ancient times to define a modern usage of words.come on soldier!

  270. As for the baseless,personal attacks and insults hurled to by Nkarei about being illetrate,when you use those kind of unkind words to people you dont even know,it says more about you than who you are talking about.when you believe that most people are thieves,the underlying effect is that you are a thief yourself.An elder who engages in name calling match with children in the village squire invites a ridicule among himself and i wont be that kind of elder.At least i was couteous enough to acknowledge Nkareis somewhat knowledge on millitary matters.However he is also a man who is alienated by outrageous theories that everything is a broad conspiracy that stagnates the black man and perfects the white man.His world is that if not for the white man like myself the world would be modern and decent.His world is that everything comes out the way whites want it and thats why a large pool of blacks are wallowing in misery.Present to me a different opinion and youll earn my respect.In my world nobody deserves my respect you have to earn it.

  271. At least microprocessor admits the change in the term Uncle term use!

    • its not polite to comment on someone’s having good English. Of course its spoken well…it was forced down our throat by the west..but we still speak two to three additional languages

  272. LET ME NAIL THE COFFIN OF THIS “UNCLE TOM” DEBATE BY CLARIFYING TWO THINGS.THE ORIGINAL USAGE OF THIS TERM IS AS DESCRIBED ABOVE BY MICROPROCESSOR.SIMPLY IT WAS A BLACK MAN WHO WANTED TO BE A WHITE MANS PET.
    ON THE OTHER HAND,THE TERM USAGE EVOLVED AND AS AMERICA BECAME MORE LIBERAL,THE TERM WAS FLIPPED TO MEAN THE WHITES WHO LITERALLY WANTED TO OWN AND CONTRAL THE WORLD.I MEAN THE WHITE MAN WHO WANTED TO MAKE THE WORLD THEIR PET.
    WHEN THE U.S.A GOVERMENT ACTED ARROGANTLY LIBERALS SUMMONED IT AS UNCLE TOM TO MEAN AN ARROGANT WHITE MAN OR GOVERMENT.INFACT TODAYS WIDE USAGE IN THE WEST IS IN LINE WITH WHAT SPEARHEAD TRIED TO DESCRIBE THOUGH HE IS A LITTLE OFF THE HOOK AND DELIBERATELY ARROGANT.
    TO PUT THIS DEBATE TO REST,YOUR DEFINATION AND UNDESTANDING OF THE TERM IS AS ACTUAL AS YOU WANT IT TO BE DEPENDING WITH TIME AND PLACE.THE GLASS IS EITHER HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY DEPENDING WITH THE WAY YOU JUDGE THINGS.
    IN THIS DEBATE,I THINK EVERY ONE IS RIGHT AND IF YOU WONNA MAKE THIS A CHIKEN-EGG QUESTION,YOU TELL ME WHICH CAME FIRST.THIS HAS NO END.

  273. Spearhead. We all express our opinions here, not necessarily to agree, and not even to manifest our intelligence and education. Blanketing hard-serving dedicated professionals as illiterate and dismissively deriding their understanding of intellectual matters as consequent of what you claim is their universally acclaimed lowly education is certainly a Call to War – it insults and belittles thousands of unassuming intelligent dedicated very proud persons whose background in the disciplined forces probably restrains their response to your arrogant posturing in ths blog. Does splattering your neighbour with mud make you any cleaner? All soldiers are trained to sift the real from the abstract. Go to sleep, Mate!! I think I will take a break too.

  274. Seems like the “hot” Kivu story will never go past the censors. Then, before you take your break,at some point,you said you’ve done spectacular espionage things on your potential adversaries. I wonder if you have guarantees that they arent doing the same to you!Sorts of nets off the perceived gains out of your efforts..

  275. Nkarei.First i’ve alot of respect for proffesional armed forces anywhere in the world.Ive not on this blog called them illetrate or used any deragatory term against them.To the contrary, this low life language was introduced here by you.All i said when this conversation started was that it has always been implied that majority of foot soldiers are high school graduates who are steaming with adrenaline and high on steroids. thus an accident looking to happen. I know a lot of soldiers ,i mean regulars,who joined the armed forces after high school thus as hereby stated by me have no higher level of education.This does not imply that they are illetrate.You concluding that and assuming that am talking about soldiers in general is a narrow way of looking at things for i’ve emphasized here foot soldiers.You are a major,aren’t you?Is a major a foot soldier or a commander?I expressed my desire to learn about millitary matters and youve been selfish with the wealth of information you claim to possess.Yet your knowledege is wider than reason,goes further than the waves can take it.Tell me about it.I will be the first to admit that my conversation with reflects youas one of a kind,i mean you express charisma, you seem articulate,firm in your convictions,resolute in your beliefs,ready to stand for something and fall for nothing,a soldier who not only lives for what he takes as his duty but also who is ready to die for it.On the other hand,i fear millitary jagon has distorted your world and made to believe like our grand fathers that underneath,everything that goes wrong is a conspiracy and ealrly warning system and forward array rader has to be turned on.To this effect it becomes self destructive to the point whereby literally if a bird flies above, you are full force on guard shouting orders and all worried that some alien superpower has conspired to dominate your airspace.
    Any way,am a man who knows when to quit. I’ve balls of steel that dont allow me to quit but I’ll give up..Even if a bull is born with balls sometimes it gives them up to become a bullock.

  276. IZZO – one last lick at this, Mate!! Exposure and the risks you mention are quite in the fore of mine and others’ mind, I reckon – the sword cuts both ways, and sites like these inform and misinform in equal measure. And this blog might not be ready for the sort of debate substantive disclosure is certain to generate, judging from recent history. So, yes, I am taking some R & R from it for a while, see how the blog matures.

  277. ISSO – By the way, seems everyone uses a nom de guerre (pseudonyms) in this blog. Naturally and desirably so – contributions are anonymous although not necessarily untraceable. You reckon I am any different, mate?

  278. I understand.Agreed on all points raised; i can see where you are coming from,mate.

  279. The professionalism in this thread, and the “updf one”, is exemplary and, it shows a dedicated forum is needed. You could borrow a leaf from Small Wars Council http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/index.php since COINS is “THE” future.

  280. These guys are on facebook!

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=102816741528&v=info

    Question. How secure (or otherwise), in respect to national security is such a venture?

  281. Guys,
    Some of you have deviated and started trading insults. This is boring and will surely kill this blog. Let us all respect the views of everyone whether we agree with them or not. Some people have posted comments which are not necessarily accurate, but this should not result into an insult. We are all here to learn. After all no one can claim monopoly of knowledge. This blog has hitherto been interesting and informative, so let’s not kill it. You will all notice that some people are starting to stay away, hopefully they are cooling off.

  282. There are so many “aviation experts” in this forum! lol!

    wow! We cannot even stop kikuyus from killing luos, luos from killing kikuyus, kalenjin from killing kikuyus, and all that post election violence, yet we want to acquire the jets (yes the equaivalent of T-38 still used as a primary trainer at US Airforce e.gbase at Columbus AFB in Mississippi. Astrounauts choice of plane too… therefore a very good jet?)
    ..we want get the jets to defend kenya from who?

    kenya will never fight a war. Migingo is in the state of being invaded as we talk yet the leadership as usual is ASLEEP on the steering wheel …or is it Yoke lol!

    Kibaki/Raila/Saitoti V1…..VRotate oh no bird strike, compressor stall..stick shaker Whoop whoop, Kibaki pull up…..whoop whoop pull up……Raila V2…(LOL) thrust lever!…EGT.. whoop whoop …PULL UP …stick shaker … Saitoti retract gear …whoop whoop …TERRAIN… 5y-kenya-post-election contacted the ground.

    NTSB Probable Cause : Failure to pre-flight the country during election. Inexperienced Pilot flying unrated a/c. Contributing factor: Impunity.

  283. migingo!…………………..migingo!………………migingo! the shortest route to mimingo is through Nakasero,entebbe and finally kampala.our forces are contigent enough to hoist kenyan flag in kampala.lets do it over!

  284. i think kenya needs to upgrade to modern avionics so i think its a wise move

  285. Now where are these guys?
    Risasi,Izzo,Partisan,Microprocessor etc.
    We are missing your contributions, please come back.
    Contribute to what Ole Nkarei, Pain in the ass and myself are debating elsewhere in a related blog.

  286. China is fast gaining ground as a major supplier to the Kenyan military besides Britain and the US. Already we have the Harbin Y-12,W Z-551APC,Z-9 and the WZ-9 attack helicopter.Is this to do with cost or a major shift on supplier to Eastern markets. We saw the T-72 saga although some people claimed the weapons might not have been ours.

  287. tell them fiji tell them. lets be basic to them, or lets go down frm level 4 to 1. comparing mig 29 or su17 to the f5 is like comparing the latest ferari model to an old volkswagen bettle. simple.

  288. i left the airforce in late yr 2000 an some of the F5 flight manuals i used i gave them to my 22yr old nephew who joined the force an made it to the flying school at mab. sad that he might end up in the same cocpit that i first sat on more than 20yrs ago. talk of smithsonian materials.

    • i spent a whole 2 days following this blog from top 2 bottom.every link posted,every claim made credible or otherwise.personally i think the upgraded F-5 is a match for any aggressor aircraft in our neighbors inventory.true the airframe is nearing its sell by date thats why the acquisition of these birds is a stop gap measure word is even “broke” Zimbabwe is going for the new JF – 17 from china.but anyone with the least combat aviation knowledge knows this new bird is largely in a pre production phase.it will take at least 5 years to make it fully combat capable.and that is what the “new” F – 5s are for. African wars are and for the foreseeable near future will always be fought and won on land.and here ladies is where our strengths lie. Lakini where are those pictures about the East African airforces?

  289. and by the way mike alpha juliet being a recent retiree from our esteemed force you are in effect part of the reserve as such the armed forces act still applies to you. i assume from your vast experience and high rank you should be conversant with chapter 20 of the said act relating to offences against morale.chunga sir lest you land yourself a court martial

  290. Hey “D” – damn right you are, and the Maj knows this too well – if he indeed has served. But you know the saying, that the not all shoulders fit the Uniform. And thanks for filling in for Risasi, who appears to have good AWOL.

  291. Mimi niko bwana I have not gone AWOL masomo ndiyo mingi. Otherwise I can see the blog is very much alive. As for Maj (ret.) shida gani in sharing the same cockpits and manuals with you nephew. On the contrary, provide him with your personal Tiger experiences. Nyinyi ndiyo wazee wetu sio? Let’s keep the colors flying high.

  292. Hey buddy. Welcome back. Was kinda lost without you, mate, on matter aerial. You might want to get right into the mix and field some air-warfare queries with Jasiri – not my craft at all, you know.

  293. Thanks ole Nkarei, i am trying to look for jasiri’s postings but I haven’t found any so far. What his query.

  294. Jasiri posted on the “Kenya Armed Forices Pictures” Post. Lotsa chaps been asking after you, buddy! A great debate swilling about the interface of the three arms of warfare, I think all opinions heavily coloured by which of these one belongs to. Been trying to explain that Combat schools exists primarily to obviate these sort of biaises in Battle Planning and Prosecution, to little avail. Now you need to weigh in with some thunder on how the Airman interfaces with Ground Assault, Air Defence, Mobile Armour and long-range field control. etc. Goodluck.

  295. watu wasidhani ati kwenda vita ni kama cattle russtling ama shootout between cops na majambazi (no offence 2 the boys in blue).planning and executing a successful offensive is alot like a game of chess you have 2 use your strong points 2 counter your opponents strong points while at the same time exploiting his weaknesses.Ole Nkarei na Risasi.it seems to me that both of you have better experience than i do in matters defence.in fact am willing to bet you outrank me na mbali sana.please enlighten us on our neighbouring countries weaknesses and strong points.especially Sudan,Ethiopia and Uganda and how we can take them on with our current resources.

  296. Wasiku tatize D these countries have internal problems and don’t have the strategy to conduct an offensive with Kenya. Let us debt this on the “Kenya Armed Forces pictures” so that I can have a good follow up.

  297. “Wasiku tatize D these countries have internal problems” I find it so hard to believe that the most informative contributor to this blog can be so ignorant. Risasi hebu look at Kenya beyond the barracks for once na uone the we are moving fast towards a claymore. In my opinion we are in more of a mess than Ethiopia, Sudan and Uganda. Unlike them, our troubles are spread countrywide!

  298. cheki ukabila vile umezidi man. i bet the same thing happens in the military. Cheki wat is happening in rift valley. Ngojeni east african brigade ituokoe 2012. By the way did you way jicho pevu yesterday?

  299. Nepotism is there I don,t dispute it, but I am sure if the military is to be tested it will come out as one fist in order to discredit the prevailing stereotypes talks ,for vanity sakes and resultant continuous careers trainings above all. This is a professional force. Our soldiers eat and live from their salaries. It’s a career, and the soldiers will carry its operations to the highest decree and abilities

  300. I told you to look at Kenya beyond the barracks risasi. the general population is virtually being held together by the international boundaries that define Kenya. is all you see a beyond the border situation? The Kenya you know, love and “protect” is being eaten from the inside. I know you’ll say internal affairs is a matter of the police but for once would you people think of what will happen if the police fail, coz they have failed already. Do you want to be deployed outside the barracks in armoured vehicles and gunships to scare away threats when you could have dealt with them before the issue exploded? 2007 muliitwa and it was only bows and arrows, 2012 na ma A.K mutado? I know you’ll say “the military has the capability to deal with any threat bla bla bla….” but do you have to wait until 1300 Kenyans are killed ndio mujue you are needed? Constitutionally you are mandated to protect the lives and livelihoods of Kenyans. Since you know the police are as competent as tthe Somali national police i think it’s time for the D coy to start some black op’s. Fyekeni leaders wa hii issue before your friends, bro’s, sisters, wives, children and parents are caught up in this. Risasi, being loyal to the ruling elite doesn’t mean you are a more patriotic Kenyan than others, being loyal to the country does. What is good for the country isn’t necessarily good for the leadership. live up to the name SOLDIER and defend your people when they need you. They need you now. Alternatively you can hide behind the barracks fence na muconduct war games pounding fictional enemies when the real enemy is within us.

  301. I am looking at Kenya beyond the barracks, and what I see is “internal affairs Docket” as you mentioned. Ok the police might have failed as you say, but you as a mwanainchi what have you done to reverse this situation? Issues of policing can be address to the Office of the President nearby you or the police Hotlines if you are will to contribute. I am not the right person to give any brilliant domestic plans. In 07’ the armed forces went out to bring order and not to fight the mwanainchi. Part of their objectives was to clear the Kenya highways off barricades and not running battles in slams with civilians. Therefore D coy’s executions shouldn’t be done to fellow Kenyans, believe me. ½ a squadron can create havoc to an entire armed infantry unit . just like a small stone inside your Boots, they will bruise you until you get read of them. They weren’t even launch against the armed Sabaot Land Defence Force (SLDF). It wouldn’t be a responsible act to unleash them against fellow countrymen. This will be reducing these professional boys to militia standard.

    I would love to hear your contingency plan between an elite force vs an AK-47 wielded civilian.

    point of correction;
    Constitutionally the armed forces are mandated to protect the lives and livelihoods of Kenyans against foreign aggressions.

  302. “I would love to hear your contingency plan between an elite force vs an AK-47 wielded civilian” i believe your understanding of my argument is that we unleash the D coy on every gun wielding Kenyan out there. That’s not my point. My point is, w unleash the D coy on the main suppliers, we nip the bud before it blooms. If the main suppliers are decommissioned then the para’s can move in and start a mop up op against those with illegal firearms. get it now?

    • What you are talking about is Called ORGANISED CRIME. “Guns and hit men for hire” among other organized misdemeanor. I think its very much present in this country and the trade thrives well when there is rivalry among the society. If you watch the news of late you would hear “A business man was killed and the gang escapes with his car and money……” what we see on the news is just 10% if you include the small, small business men that are killed in mtaani and the likes of River Road

      I feel that most of the times these are business men killing their rivals. Criminals are paid to get rid off competitors. Paid crimes or what is largely known as Organized Crime. Because the hit men are still underpaid, they do tend to steal from their victims. The robbing of the assassinated victim makes the scenarios looking like a violent robbery. Occasionally we do hear and see the Classic type assignations where the victim’s financial possession isn’t robbed. The dust hasn’t still cleared yet. It’s still a mixture of both hooliganism and organized crime. In present days the former is still taking the presidency in most occasions. its just a matter of time until we will start seeing definite patterns and crystal clear picture of organized crime. These are still matters of internal affairs and a matter of policing and investigations.

      I don,t think the police have established a unit to deal with such crimes. Again these are just my sentimental and I stand to be corrected.

      • Hey Risasi and Jasiri,

        I think both of you are going off topic. We are supposed to be discussing matters military. Leave crime and such like things to the police.
        On a separate note welcome back Risasi, you have away too long.
        Jasiri you appear knowledgeable same as Risasi, Ole Nkarei,Mr ‘D’ and a few others. Let us learn from you all.

  303. Most western countries have laws prohibiting the deployment of their militaries inside their territories to deal with civil matters eg the Posse Comitatus act in the US our military SOP (standard operating procedure) and traditions are modelled upon some of these military powers in many areas including aid to civil authority. in any case instances where the military can be deployed within our borders are clearly defined in the armed forces act cap 199. elimination of crime bosses is not one of them. and i know the guys who were deployed late in 2007 n early 2008 had clear orders to open up the blocked highways without further escalating the already volatile situation they were only to engage in self defence.if you are ignorant you will call it cowardice but i call it proffesionalism.kufuata sheria ambayo ni kazi yetu kulinda.

  304. “D”, then i think someone has to do the domestic work for you. I am not ready to see our soil drenched in blood of innocent Kenyans when deep down i know something could have been done.

  305. Jasiri you are right someone should do the work.but not the armed forces. a special police branch maybe NCIS i think in the past ilikuwa job ya special branch i cant comment on that political stuff lakini i know in my heart we would never let this great country go down the drain we swore to protect it from enemies internal and external i just dont see any enemies yet just misguided souls who mwananchi has the ability to deal with the way he sees fit.

  306. Guys an idea just hit me. What happens when you put an F-18 engine(f404-GE-400) into a Chengdu Jian-10 fighter. Won’t you have an impressive fighter? Higher thrust to weight ratio coupled with the J-10′s canards should be able to give you impressive maneuverability. Remember the F-5′s baby brother the F-20?

  307. am no aircraft expert but am sure there are lots of things to consider like the strength of the airframe vis a vis the weight of the engine.but the n again am not an aircraft expert.however if it works it sounds like one hell of a bird.

  308. “D” If this bird can take on a MiG-29(AL-31F) engine i’m sure it can take on the General Electric engine.

  309. how about while they are at it they give it a whole new radar suit and modify the hardpoints and weapons system to allow it fire the AMRAAMs and sidewinders it would be like the F – 35 without the stealth technology.is iy possible?

  310. Jasiri. You speak and think like you once were in uniform, trained with us, and thought with us. No doubt about that. I and a lot of guys reading your postings feel your frustration and your great love for our country. I think that you are seeking answers like the rest of us, and yur anger at the failure of those responsible for internalisation of our collective National Safety shows clearly. But you must recall that our training is not uniquely physical, but more so psycological, and this is patterned and specific to every particularly outfit that bears arms and whose core duties include using them. So that the AP RDU has a completely different regimen of mind training to their usual cousins stationed in Chiefs Comps country-wide. Or the GSU verses the “blue” Cops in Police stations. Even in different formations of our Armed Forces this differentiations applies, and shows in the manner each interpret their taskings, and deployments. Consequently, calling for us to deploy in a policing role in which we have no mental training in , and no competence, and in which we shall be required to fall back on what “we essentially are” is a most disastrous and depressing prospect. Which would explain why there is no single successful social system that has ever been engineered by the Military anywhere in this world. There are other better, logical and practical experiments that I could propose that would incorporate elements of the Armed Forces, if you are interested in these. I would also caution that posting that border on treasonous subversion may drive this blog to the dogs altogether. Let us keep our exchanges benign ad informative educational and friendly at all times, buddy.

  311. “D”, for the hardpoints and weapons system we could go for Israeli avionics. A lot of countries are developing confidence in the Israelis. as for the radar, a PESA(Passive electronically Scanned Radar) ought to do the trick. a wicked choice would be the N011M of the SU-30MK. then we couple that with FLIR, TV and a laser designator. Hiyo plus the Dash-3 helmet air force want’s to buy will make it the most potent warplane flying the African skies.alfu some ECM capabilty to protect itself. Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a Vigorous Dragon!

    ole nkarei, you are wrong on all things except one, I have a DEEP love for this country. I just can’t accept what is happening when i know we can be great. It may surprise you to actually know the man behind Jasiri. But since we see things alike, next time you are in Msa nishtue we do a little R&R

  312. Jasiri what your saying is fine, a good venture and brilliant ideas. Take a fighter and modifying it and you have a unique fighter. But they is something called “End-use-agreement” which binds the buyer and the seller. Jama anakuuzia silaha lakini huna ruhusa ko modify or re-sell them without his consent. And if you do give a good fight and grounds for modifying them, then the items in question will be from his factories. Na bado you can want an item and he can refuse to sell it. Japan was told by the American “although you are our most beloved ally in Asia we will not sell you the F-22 stealth fighter, because whatever technology we sell to you, finds its way into China”

    Just like Microsoft Windows, you can only load Ms Word and no other Program for running Documents. They sell you an item but have a say on its usage. This also happened to the Australia air force recently. It had rejected in buying /taking the stealth F-35. Although the F-35 was a Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program by the USA and it allies, Lockheed Martin (USA) has encrypted and locked its softwares. Australia could not therefore modify it at will. Manufactures have a big say in there items. That is why in Kenya the Fc-1 is more favored then the JF-17.

    • Risasi, what is the difference? I thought the FC-1 and the JF-17 thunder are one and the same thing only that the FCF-1 is exclusively made in China while the JF-17 can be produced also in Pakistan.

  313. i said it and ill say it again i think those newly acquired F – 5s are only temporary. in my view they will be in active duty for 5 – 7 years before acquisition of new jets.honestly as it seems its down to either the J – 10 of J – 17 if them fly boys opt for the vigorous dragons they should look to this site for some upgrade suggestions. they sound exciting.tutakuwa imara angani mara kumi kuliko sasa.ole nkarei hits it spot on on the issue of military intervention to some of these affairs. kudos major.

  314. “But they is something called “End-use-agreement” which binds the buyer and the seller” Risasi, i know of these restrictions but can’t a man dream? Najua the Americans won’t agree to us re-engining a chinese warplane with an American engine. Butoutlinin the what if’s isn’t bad. you say “That is why in Kenya the Fc-1 is more favored then the JF-17.” Lemme correct you, the JF-17 is the pakistani name for the FC-1(FighterChina-1) I think you menat that you think the air force prefers the Jf-17 over the J-10, sio? little wonder, the FC-1 looks almost like an f-5.
    “D” i also believe that the extra F-5′s are only a stopgap measure. i’m sure zingine zaja in a few years time, but meanwhile we’ve got to protect ourselves.

  315. jasiri is right about the americans refusing to part with their engines. that is why i admire mossad so much they stole the complete blueprints for the mirage 1 and engineered a completely new aircraft of their own using those same plans and called it the Kfir.maybe the NSIS should steal some plans for the sudanese plane and fix one of ours using juakali techno just to piss em off.

  316. Jasiri.
    I will take you up on your R&R invite sooner than you reckon. And I have a pretty good idea who’s behind this jasiri mask, mate, our itinerant paths have crossed couple of time, and for this alone, my advise is keep the clutter down, your profile is easy to make from your posts. A brainstormer-blog is good enough without the “other” bits! i.e the stuff about a kenyan hybrid fighter plane is damn good, and the path along which all Nations now manufacturing their own planes have gone in the past.

  317. hey “d” did the Israelis use the mirage or that MiG-23(?) they stole from Iraq? You raise an important point though. the N.S.I.S should be used to spur economic development, through “acquisition” of relevant technologies. See what the chines did with the J-11 vis-a-vis the SU-27?

  318. Mike Alfa Juliet, don’t be so sure. Lakini seriously don’t forget to radio in Ukija huku chini.

  319. actually jasiri it is the mirage 5 their resemblance is uncanny. it was developed when the french declined to sell arms to israel after the 1960s war against the arabs. both of them sport the delta wings. i hear the NSIS is up for restructuring soon anybody with data please enlighten.
    oh and jasiri be advised majors have photographic memories ole nkarei can probably remember his first day at nursery school.

  320. Jasiri raised a vital matter of Civilian Oversight on our country’s Aggressor Forces, which essentially serves to covers us with a blanket of legitimacy when we take armed actions with consequences of extreme prejudice – these actions as being an expression of the People. Without this, we are no better than the criminal gangs depopulating their own people in Somalia. But the counter-weight to this Civilian Oversight is our Profesionalism, Discipline, Readiness, that the Civilians not only admire, but MORE IMPORTANTLY FEAR – that their legitimacy is only relevant in as long as the exercise of this oversight mirrors the expressions of the people. In this scenario, it might become clearer why Migingo failed the requisite test of CLEAR AND PRESENT National interests since national consensus to military actions was not established.

  321. Olekoima, jasiri
    The JF-17 and the FC-1 are two different fighter that look alike but they is a lot under the hoods. to begin with one is a Dragon the other is Thunder. Get the point.

    The JF-17 is a PAF specialized version of FC-1, it is peer with NATO standards. The Pakistanis did resources on their F-16 and what the F-16 larked in , they made it up in the JF-17. According to the Pakistani, the JF-17 is cheaper to run and superior then the F-16E/F (export variant of the F-16). The aircraft is manufactured in china and is on sell to keep the project running but Its Suite is locked for confidential purpose. Therefore modification and upgrades have to be granted by the Pakistani. The Jf-17 is therefore a sequential of the F-16.i.e. from the F-16 comes the F-17.

    The FC-1 can come in basic fighter frames and engine. you can mount as much avionics as the frame can hold or you funds can afford. China gave this offer because it wants part of the cake of the military market that the West dominates.

    haya Jasiri kazi niyo yaku modify and upgrading start applying for visa for the follow countries that have placed orders Egypt ?, Iran, Zimbabwe and Azerbaijan

  322. FC-1 has ;
    Zhuk/Elta/Sextant/Sino/Grifo-7/your choice
    Zhuk/Elta/Sino/Thales Avionics Suite/your choice
    Xhuk/Elta/Sino/SAGEM ECM/EW Suite/your choice
    Chinese/Elta/Thales/Kentron Helmet Mounted Display/your choice
    Digital or Analogue Fly-by-Wire
    7 Hardpoints
    Glass Cockpit (2 Large MFDs + 2 Small MFDs + 1 HUD)

    The JF-17 has ;
    Thales RC400 Radar
    Thales Avionics Suite
    SAGEM ECM/EW Suite
    Kentron or Thales Helmet Mounted Display
    Fully Digital Fly-by-Wire System NATO standards
    9 Hardpoints
    Sextant Avionique Glass Cockpit (3 Large MFDs + 2 Small MFDs + 1 HUD)

  323. if the zims can afford this plane sisi pia nayo nayo. its a quality aircraft i tell you. and since when (not if) we get it we are likely to get it new it gives us a chance to order them tailor made for our needs. maybe they will even give the kenyan version a name of its own like the JF 17 K like the deed with the hawk 50 series the hawk 52 was tailor made for kenya air force. having said that am sure once these birds are acquired they will number not less than 10 add that to the existing F – 5 fleet some of which i know will be cannibalized by the “new” F 5 arriving from jordan which number 15 i have to take issue with the air force infrastructure especially embakasi. that airbase is being literally chocked by civilian buildings around it. if i was the government i would hurry up the expansion of JKIA to create space for a small aircraft section there where i would relocate wilson to then convert wilson to an airforce base to cater for the increased airforce planes.

    • I think the FC-1 will be existing in BLOCKS like the F-16. its more economical.

      I personally think its not good to have fighters based in Embakasi . There were reasons the British move the fighters from the then Kenya Airforce Base Easleigh to the Kenya Airforce Base Nanyuki.

  324. “D”, weren’t the air men at one time lusting for Wilson? what happened?
    Risasi, i agree with you. Having a fighter base in the city only exposes civys to danger. we should base the fighter in Nanyuki, Wajir, Garissa maybe Lokichogio too that way we have a good network. Plus the F.O.B’s in Kisumu and Mombasa should be utilised fully.

  325. kwetu ni kisumu n in all the years i grew up there i never saw a single airforce plane overhead.that FOB is defunct.

  326. So much talk,

    An Elite force without a good defence policy is useless.

    In Migingo 20 Ugandan policemen took over Kenyan
    Territory with a shot!

    Case closed!

  327. have had our men in uniform in lots of praise to the 20th para battalion and company-the D coy,how good are these boys,are there training different with other infantry?

    wat makes them that good as one person had mention in the blog that half of the can create havoc to a whole armed infantry battalion,do they have special war machines??

    wats there number,are they many??

    • Just like what ole Nkarei,told you its not pleasant to discuses some issue on the web. The primary function of D coy is behind enemy lines. At this area they can monitor their movements coordinate with artillery or air strikes to destroy them. They can mine essential areas and provide assignation kills on unit commanders as they track them by.
      among many

  328. Vipi, jamas!
    Classified stuff, Felix. You are asking obtuse queries about men on the ground, some in active posting in hostile grounds, and not some unreachable airflame. Suffice to say they are very very good, train with the very best in the world, have very appropriate kit ,and have a drastically different philosophy (raison dëtre) and hence training from general infantry units. Please just leave it there, I plead with you. On such matters that have ramifications on National Security and the personal welbeing of these men, I should think that a right to know must be qualified with a need to know, bra. This blog has developed an incredible hit-frequency lately and you would be surprised the extent of its readership. Careful guys!.

  329. I’d tend to think that D’coy are more of infiltration,assymetrical warfare oriented with additional deep penetration long range patrol and recon,pathfinder etc etc,this is very plausible seeing as Kenya NavyCDU usually undergo SEAL/SBS training.
    More importantly,Kenya is raising a whole Ranger battalion modelled after the 75th ranger regt USA,initial troops are already through with the ranger school course in Fort Benning GA and have the tab,only thing lacking are sufficient air assets to move all these around, also note the existence of elite Kenya Navy Marine Commandos- winners of March and Shoot 2000,the records they set are yet to be broken, overall better than other units of KA then.Therefore Kenya Armed Forces has numerous units that can be classed as special forces not just 20 para battalion,note also that every infantry battalion has an organic unit tasked with Reconnaisance Surveillance and Target Acquisition-these are usually the best soldiers in the battalion

    • to add on what the above gentlemen have said, in a mundane language, the D coy are mainly hunters. They could move for days and just fire one lethal shoot or call in support units to eliminate their targets. direct confrontations might give away their positions. behind enemy lines is the key word, with a objectives to perform .

      after constant review it was noted that a piece of the puzzle is missing. An assault team similar to D coy, with a heavy and distractive firing power. Its therefore going to be larger then D coy but small then an infantry Coy. It should rapidly engage and withdraw with a strong fire power. This where the new Ranger team fits in. armed with Z-9WA and its utility counterpart Z-9 (troop carrier)they will have a range of +1000km with a good fire power and speeds of 300km/hr. Raiding is the key word. A day in the field would be like raiding target facilities, rescuing downed pilots and POW,s behind enemy lines while getting cover from their gunships, among other others.

  330. hello Major, you are back? contact me on .-. .- .–. – — .-.@gmail.com hope u understand the meaning. i only need like minded people to know the address

  331. Hey Jasiri! Gotcha.- you reckon I can’t read a simple cipher, eh? I am on a comsat link man, illegal, but cannot resist reading you guys! Done my debrief and going back in. Will catch you when I am back on R & R in a couple weeks. This site is now our, and that is for sure. Keep that guy with the funny queries on “D”coy away, alright? Flares, smoke, whatever you can do!

  332. I think that guy is a foreign agent preying on our seeming ignorance. But we will hold.

  333. this is the ethiopian army,anyone thinking they are a mob of disorganized mass infantry is dead wrong- before 1998-2000 war they were not expecting war thus quite unprepared and had no choice but to rely on trenchwarfare tactics. They reorganized quite impressively with new equipment, the stuff in this video is old recently they have upgraded with 2s19 msta self propelled howitzers, north korean 122mm SPH, wz551 ifv from china,t-72 from yemen,they are manufacturing rpg7s ak101,103,refurbrishing t-55mbt,type 89 apc from china,152mm gun 2a36.
    With this type of organisation they were able to blitz into Mogadishu in 2006- same distance to Nairobi by the way-in one week,drove all the way to the Kenyan border near Lamu,this is the one major reason why GoK is spending on T-72s F-5s etc

  334. The US Rangers Battalion are really a Light Infantry Formation, not particularly a Special Forces in the real sense of the word, best seen as a stop-gap between a full infantry Unit with Light Amour (APC’)and Anti-amour and Anti-air capacities ( but short of a Mechanized Infantry Formation) and a full-fledge Special Force Formation that wages unorthodox un-natural warfare in small compartmentalized squads of 6(SAS) 7(Delta Force) and 12(Kenya). This then defines them Ranger – their recruitment (short-bodied light-weights soldiers) their training(Cross-quarter Combat, Air-drops by Fixed-winged and Rota-winged aircraft both High-entry and low-entry, infiltration and sabotage behind lines, evasion and survival skills under duress, psychological preparations in case of capture, etc. The Kenya’s ‘D’ Coy and our Navy CDU are not at all intended for this sort of thing. These are killer-aggressor units that train and deploy only for this purpose. Any long range patrol and recon, pathfinder tasking and others manners of asymmetrical warfare are secondary to this. Deployment always presupposes a finality of the Oeration with Extreme Prejudice, period! The Kenya Ranger-type battalion about to commission responds to the crisis we have faced for decades with an imploded Somalia where a full-fledged invasion isn’t permissible nor tenable in view of the type of opposition facing us, nor the continuous utilization of Killer-aggressor Units in mundane Intel /surveillance and interdiction functions which a light infantry Formation such as this would be better tasked and prepared for . Then I can come home more often and drink that Tusker Malt like the rest of you desk-types, eh?

  335. note that all ethiopian t-55 have kontakt1 era,kenya should take care to upgrade all new t-72s with kontact 5 or relikit era, and put the ancient mk3 mbt through a sabra mkII like upgrade.
    REQ: Who knows anything about our Kenya Navy Marine Commandos- we hear very little of them but methinks that this is one very capable light infantry unit being kept under wraps.

    • The CDU is a very shy organisation. all i know is that they have a separate barracks within the Mtongwe Naval base. Their reputation is quite fierce that if u tell a Msa cop u belong to CDU he drops you like a hot potato. By the look of things, these guys are our Sayeret Matkal(IDF special forces)

  336. hey guys good job letting those questions on D coy pass men i may be a desk type paper pusher (yes i am) lakini i have had my stints in the field to learn that the slightest info in the wrong hands could be disastrous like the recent mosad op in dubai, sm1 leaked a single name to the press and the whole party was busted.

    the vickers mk3 did go through a mid life upgrade i just dont have the specs in my head right now but am sure they are somewhere. n major u knw we dnt wish each other luck so happy hunting.

  337. I went through the Mossad video of dubai it was very interesting . the surveillance team was dress like tennis players and had cellphones that were encoded. they used foreign passports because those nationalities get Visa on arrivals no application need. I will try to post it if any1 is interested

    To spearhead, observer:

    part of the suit is not installed

  338. Gentlemen on the issue of the new Su30 positioned on our “9 oclock”, the tactics will be similar to what we have for our “12 oclock” neighbor with his Su27. I will go technical .The Su30 is an upgrade of the Su-27.with thrust vector controls. We have several options ,

    1. Similar to jasiri’s move The UN allows 1 to launch an attack to a neighbor if you deem he is talking position to attack you. Preemptive strikes debatable, but it can be done. movements and exercises of the “12 oclock” guy are logged studied and we have found many “Achilles’ heel”. Here are some which are not substance able but just read on. where do the birds lay and how long it take them to get a clearance to takeoff, (The Su27 can,t lift without special authorizations to prevent a greedy pilot from defect with it.) how long it takes the birds to be turned around after a sortie fuel and arming.etcs. What are the mean time between failures. With regards to the squadron that they keep in their capital most of there pilots stay out side the base and morning times is appropriate to raid them as the pilots will be caught up in the heavy rush hour jams. There are a lot of red tapes and Small thing that they have over looked that will give us advantages. With this in hand it’s very possible to get them in there hangers.

    2. due to the location of the Su27 home base it easy for D coy to stay covert and bring them down as they take off using the basic Mistral missile.

    This is scenario 1 before takeoff I will be back with scenario 2 after takeoff this compose the BuK and the F-5.

  339. Guys i think this blog is becoming too technical. We may be unwittingly outlining our own offensive moves to an enemy when we can’t be accorded the same windfall. carefull with the specs.

  340. “D” can u give the formative history of the modern day Kenya armed Forces(Tri-Service)

  341. i have just learnt how kenya armed forces are well organised if all this discussion are not just on books never the less our military power remained untested since indepence and therefore with all the units that our men are proud of ,are yet to be determined.

    about the CDU,i have been to mtongwe but havent hard much about them and their operations even the kenya navy marine commandors.
    anyone who can tell us more about them??

  342. chinook,
    no one can tell you more about them. by the way where did the guy called izzo go to?

  343. my brother risasi – you are still at it man – good man you are credible in your analysis about military affairs – interesting that we started this discussion about the f 5 tiger in 2008 – lol – anyway i have credible info that the Kenyan air force already has the ex-Jordanian f 5s – and they are in tiptop shape with israeli avionics and all the latest upgrades- and they are already upgrading the older fleet to bring it up to par with the newer ones and also the chinese are equipping us with some of their airforce military aircraft – from heavy transports to the j 17 fighter aircraft – helicopter gunships etc etc – i hear this has elevated us juu sana in this region – heard anything urself ??

    • thanks chalo will about you on a covert mission soon to keep the blog s live check in time to time

  344. i want somebody to come up with a proposal on how the Su30/Su27 can destroy our airforce. Lets lock horns vijana esp. spearhead, jasiri. Form you squadrons against mine. lets simulate.

    • in the Ugandan case, numbers are their main disadvantage. 6 SU-30′s against 30+ F-5′s is suicide but i could still manage to do major damage. Kwanza, i find out the radar floor of the KAF surveillance radar and the placement of all strategic radar between Uganda and Nanyuki. I then order my fighters in. i know the KAF will not engage me in a long range aerial battle because that is where my primary strength lies in. The sukhois hug the ground before reaching the Kenyan border. It is a long range fighter so the fuel aint a problem. Alafu i use the rift valley’s features to my advantage. Between valleys escarpments gorges anything i can use to hide my presence. Finally, Karibu na Nanyuki i pop up for my kill. PRIORITY: RUNWAYS AND CON TOWER. SECONDARY PRIORITY: HANGARS FUELL DUMPS RADAR INSTALLATION. Meanwhile the Mig 23′s sneak in and hit the radars looking into Uganda. on my return, i don’t have to worry about fighters ambushing me. Taking out Nanyuki will be a huge plus on our side because it would force the KAF to operate further from the frontier. This will be a serious disadvantage because the majority of the fuel will be used to bring the closer to Ug and in case of a dog-fight, the UPDF will dictate terms. The runways in Eld and Kisumu will be useless coz with no radar cover to warn in advance, the Kaf won’t risk putting it’s fighters in the open. unless they have a secret AWACS bird we don’t know about.

  345. finally some1 confirms what i already knew didnt i tell u guys the ex jordanian birds are here. am not much of an airforce guy so am going to let Risasi’s air combat simulation to more formidable opponents.

  346. AM back baby!
    To pick up on the upgrades o the F5s its common knowledge that our chief of general staff was in israel to secure new avionics for the upgrades of these birds.its also in the air that beside the already equipment we have secutred from china,more especially gunships are on the way.We have everything in line guys.We lead from the front in this hemisphere.copy that over.

  347. the su – 30 uses the R – 77 missile as its primary long range weapon plus its its powerful radar ensures that it will see the enemy before the enemy sees it thus having the opportunity to fire first. this is a clear advantage on the part of the su – 30 and it is unadvisable to engage it at long ranges. its thrust vectoring system makes it highly maneuverable it can out turn outclimb and outdive any aircraft in our hangars at the moment, the JF – 17 is an almost sure acquisition but it too has no thrust vectoring. in the event of a surprise attack if i was to be tasked with the defence of our airspace with the current equipment i would let the su 30 get close to negate its long range abilities before i scramble my fighters keeping my birds close to the dirt to avoid those radar missiles since they are way fewer than what is at hand i would then play the numbers game of maybe 3 f – 5s to 1 SU 30 this way they could watch each others back, help to confuse the enemy while allowing themselves to use moves like the thatch weave which i gather was used in ww2 by allied pilots to combat the faster and agile Mitsubishi zeros. the sidewinders are dependable in dog fight situations that plus our pilots expertise and experience will be vital in defeating these threats.but the only plane ive ever been inside is one i was required to jump off so on matters aerial battles am sure someone could come up with a better theory.

  348. anybody else to back “D” with a suggestion before we proceed with the simulation. The the ELM 2032 (unlike what spearhead thinks of this radar) is the downsized variant of the 2035. it can also detect the Su,s at a good distances. With this “D” I would suggest you get some juakali artisans along the border as there will be a lot of scrap crashed Su’s which will be good raw materials for there jobs in building jikos and the like.

    Let me help my opponents. We have learnt that a former Russian expert is planning to train and use the Ug Su30 if that if there are acquired as mini AWACS based on the radar capabilities. a typical attack or formation to be 1 Su30 flanked with 3 MiGs, the Su3o will scan, detect fire a BvR missile at our formation and the MiG,s will purse. by the way this just for learning purpose there are no winner or losses what you want to input go ahead and do so.

    I will post the elm2032 resolution and see how vivid it is.

  349. i was basing my assumptions on using the SU30 in 2 plane squads used as long range strike planes and to attack key military installation inside enemy territory i did not factor them in as air superiority fighters because of the lack of numbers, the wide area of operations and the size of the enemy they are up against. i figured the MiG 23s could be used in support of the above role while also acting as search and destroy units kind of the first line of defence against aerial aggression. the MiG 21s and MiG 15s (if they are still operational) would then have to stick to a ground attack/support and basic recon inside their own territory activities since in the event of a Kenyan-Uganda Kenyan ground forces would be in Ug long before the UPDF can get their act together and recall their soldiers from the Rwandan front. if i were a ugandan airforce commander (if such a force exists) i would avoid mixed squadrons the older aircraft in my inventory would limit the strengths of my SU30s. however the idea of using them as a mini AWACS is commendable but i would only commit one bird at a time for this role.

  350. the ELM 2032 has a detection range similar to that of the Su30 radar. its 15km shorter. In your scenario i would use two squadrons, one in passive and the other in active electronics modes. the active sqd. will form a bait for the Su30 simulating a will to engage. the passive squadron to be guided by CGI to the rear of the Su30 squadrons. At close quarter the F-5 will take the Su30.

  351. i have just received confirmation that the Ugandan forces will indeed receive 6 SU30s in 2 batches. the first 2 arrive later this year while the remaining 4 are coming in early next year. arms race is officially on guys

  352. There is a clear arms race now in the East African region. Why should our western neighbour go for 4.5+ generation aircraft. Where is the threat coming from for them to acquire such a sophisticated machine or do they have expansionist tendencies because of the newly found oil wealth? I still have my reservations as to whether they will be able to support such a bird(training,infrastructure,weapons,maintenance etc).

    My take on this issue is that it’s a massive waste of resources as the flankers might end up gathering dust at Entebbe. For a country that has no functioning air force to talk about, the Su-30 represents a quantum leap in technology and my advice would be for their strategists to look for another cheaper and efficient alternative. Even a Mig-29 would be an overkill for UG leave alone a Sukhoi 30.

  353. oil gentlemen, the source of all world troubles. penye mafuta hapakosi moshi.with oil comes money with money comes power and power corrupts absolutely. maybe its a change in UGs defence strategy towards a deterrence rather than n openly aggressive one. however arms deals are not hatched overnight am sure this might have been in the pipeline for a long time i think all the war games and tough talk at the height of the migingo saga might have made them jittery when they realized their short comings.

  354. i think we should bring in the Aero L – 159 to replace the BAe Hawks in the near future. what do you guys say?

  355. uganda officially refused the su 30′s the argument is they haven’t been able to keep their mig 21′s in tip top shape – they have had to take them to israel for upgrading – the su 30 is superior in many ways and you need a competent force to keep them air worthy just ask the indians – the kenyan hawks have been grounded and in storage – but i think we need a fighter trainer a sort of lead in trainer that can be a fighter and trainer at the same time – the super tucano does well as a trainer what about the Aermacchi from russia first flew in 1996 and was brought to Italy the following year to substitute the aging MB-339. haki ya mungu we have choices i have no idea what the kenyan military struggles with.

  356. The Aero Vodochody L-159 is a useless piece of metal. It was tested by the KAF and our pilots gave it a thumbs down despite political pressure to accept it.
    There are better alternatives to replace the Hawks than the L-159.

  357. Kilo Alpha gave me new orders am being deployed to God knows where to do God knows what.see you guys in a couple of weeks and keep this alive.

    • Hey “D”, come get some. Plenty to go round, mate. Send me cipher on this very blog, if you can, when you are in, I will find you – same call signs.

      • — -… … . .-. …- . .- -. -.. .-. . .–. — .-. – — .–. … .. -. – …. . . .- … – .- — …. — — . -. — .–

  358. It was on the eastarican news couple of days ago that Uganda is indeed acquiring 6 su 30s and this project was only put on hold due to shortfalls in the budet.As a matter of fact Russia offered to deliver them in exchange for favors from new oil wealth industry.On the other hand Uganda was upset that Russian media broke the news which uganda hoped to keep a secret.Irrespective of the social and economic ties we have with Ug,this is one man who we cant trust.Can our fly boys elaborate on how we fair agaisnt this threat with our current inventory of tigers.I understand they have been upgraded with modern avionics and they overwhelmingly outnumber what Ug can wield but are they a safe bet against su,s.Shall we have to call upon army air defence pieces?help me out here.

    • Nothing to worry about. If an engagement occurs it will be a battle of ordnance and tactics which we are ahead and superior. our upgraded F-5 and our tactics can take the Su30 any day. if you observer your enemy you will find his Achilles heel and hit it, if a need been. a well planned strategy will bring the Su30 down. My friend kenya ranks in Africa.

      kama hawana pesa zakunua the Su30 they should blame it on the Russian media for exposing the deal. For how long did they think they could have kept the deal airtight? there are international institutions which monitor the movements of arms world wide. it would have been know tuu as soon as the jets left Moscow.

  359. Risasi,

    Whilst i value and respect your comments, i think it is no longer safe to dismiss the air-capability threat from our neighbours. The SU-30MK2s in Uganda will pose a significant threat however few they may be. And this is not all, we have SU-27s in Ethiopia, and the relatively smaller MiG 29s in Sudan and perhaps in Tanzania. Where does this leave us?
    I don’t mean to doubt the capability of our upgraded F-5s, but look, they will be up against 4.5 generation fighters and may thus be awfully inadequate. It is not right to assume either that UG will struggle to maintain and keep their jets air-born. Once oil money starts to flow, this will no longer be a constraint to them. And to fly them they may just decide to hire qualified Russian mercenaries.
    That the Kenya air-force is well developed with enough resources to guarantee our air safety is not in doubt, but the neighbours are now attempting to close this gap and even overtake us.
    What should Kenya do then?
    In my opinion, we should in addition to the fighter jets that we have acquire at least a 4th generation fighter jet in small numbers of say 8-10 to supplement. The best jet to buy could be the American built F-16. This jet has a proven combat history and is relatively inexpensive compared to the F-18,F-15, the Dessault Rafale or the Eurofighter Typhoon some of which might be restricted too.
    I have omitted the JAS-39 Gripen, the FC-1 and the J-11 by virtue of their un-proven combat history.
    What do others say?

    • Yes bwana Olekoima, . lets discuss like professionals. Whenever I put up or let me say evaluate the Su30, I do,t find it a threat hands down. If Kenya was to fight multi- fronts i.e against the north and west front simultaneously then the story would be different. fighting individual country KAF is still ok. I would like you to enlighten me on areas that you feel we would loss out against the Su30 or any AF ordnance
      . in my arguments I don,t underrated my opponents,i.e the Su30 is in tiptop shape, but based on what I know we have or are aspiring to acquire.
      I don,t see any thing major.

      Lets discuses openly anybody who is will to share points and contribute is welcomed

      • Very well Risasi. I will buy your line of argument especially based on what we intend to acquire. It is also highly unlikely that we fight in two fronts in the foreseeable future given the threats currently facing our two northern neighbours. I mean it will be stupid of them to open another front when their hands are still so full.
        However i’ am alarmed at the rate of ‘re-armament’ in this region as of now and am obviously running scared of nations that have hitherto been having no air-force to speak of catching up with us and even attempting to play in our league.

  360. these equipments are there for sell. our neighbors feel they need to upgrade its ok, they are at liberty to do so. Only thing is that we should be ready to counter them. What ug got is sophisticated equipment and bring it to this part of the word without proper support infrastructures will be under using it.That’s why I say we can kill it with our zealousness The Russia sold them the staff kumutongoza apewe mafuta. sio? With the infrastructure (airforce) that Ug has the much they can do is use the Su30 as airborne missile launching platforms. I would like to hear your reservations on the F-5 vs the Su30. I always tell people there no stupid questions and they is always something to learn about.

  361. I totally agree with you gentlemen and thank you for continuously posting professional comments on this vital forum.

    Although our western neighbour is still in denial that they are acquiring the Sukhoi, it’s an open secret now that the contract has been signed and since they don’t have hard cash at the moment,Uganda was planning to sign the agreement and pay for the planes with oil money. “Since Uganda is short of real money to pay for the planes, Russian LUKoil is negotiating its potential participation in developing large oil fields in Uganda, implying a possible swapping.”

    The Su-30MK2 that UG is acquiring is a very sophisticated and capable multi-role combat aircraft and whether we like it or not, it is going to tilt the balance of military power in East Africa. I totally agree with Olekoima’s comments on how we should respond to this threat and i concur our best bet is to acquire the Falcon and also include something like the SAAB ERIEYE as our eyes in the sky(remember the Su-30 can act as a mini AWACS.
    Your valued comments gentlemen are eagerly awaited.

  362. F-5 vs SU-30,

    Risasi, my argument here is that in a dog-fight situation, the F-5 is unlikely to win. Besides, the SU-30 is likely to engage it from very far without even seeing it. The later is much faster too and with a much longer combat radius. It therefore has the advantage of accomplishing the job and bolting off before the later has time to effectively respond.

  363. The only safe bet here is that 6 su’s are very few to effectively cause any chaos among our defences plus the fact that if we decide to knock out key strategic command and control and other nerve center with our f5s we stand a better chance of overwhelming the Su’s meaning that without other infrastructure in place,they stand no chance irrespective of their superiority.My assessment here is that 6 Su ‘s are far too few to engage our forces.WIth more than 20 f-5s in readiness plus our merchanized divisions plus our 50 air calvary units,not mentioning the characrte of our forces ,i believe all the pieces of the parcel are in place to render these Su’s worthiless.

    • Correct, but are we sure that UG will stop at just 6 SU-30s?. Suppose they choose to add another six in a similar exchange for oil?
      With oil money coming in, major arms suppliers will probably
      be lining up with offers to modernize the military and in this regard address their current shortcomings.
      An improvement of their air defense capability will see our advantage eroded. Needless to say this developments will take time and this is where we need to move fast to counter all else.
      Gentlemen, this is where the F-16 comes in handy.

  364. Gentlemen Lets bite what we can chew and lets not speculate. oil money, future weapons procurements etc will shall discuses when we reach the river. Lets discuses what is imminent and at least in hand.

    one man army whenever a military ordnance is acquired the balance of power is tilted. The balance can tilt on bought ways, positive or negative on the scale. i.e based on constant break down, time training cost of spare parts etc leadS to a negative trend. but lets assume the best to our opponents all goes will and the balance changes towards the positive side. now lets see how we can deal with them.

    There is an item that a blog member has posted which is very important but before I dwell on it lets look at the following facts. It would like to ask my brother Olekoima or any member for that matter, how far do you think the Su30 can engage and kill ? yes my neighbor might have a longer range radar but that doesn’t warrant me instant death on my path. after this question is answer will go into a small discussion on aviation technology which I think is what is confusing many members. I believe after that discussion most of you will see the light that I am talking about

  365. Points to ponder before we discuse:

    The Su30 is always denoted with the suffix MK, Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy meaning “Modernized Commercial
    Su30MKI means Modernized Commercial India (locked to india only),
    Su-30MKK Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Kitaya or Modernized Commercial China
    Su-30MKM for Royal Malaysian Air Force Indo-Russian tech. made by Hindustani india
    Su-30MKV Venezuela similar to the Su-30MK2.
    Su-30MK2V Su-30MK2 variant for Vietnam
    Su-30MKA Algeria is similar to the MKI with French and Russian avionics
    Su30MKK3 anti-ship naval version
    Su-30MK Standard commercial version
    Su-30M2 Upgraded Su-30MK with canards and TVC (thrust vector controls)

    Most countries like Venezuela, Vietnam, Indonesian, uganda have bought the standard version of the Su30. the Su30MK2.

    • i meant uganda have bought the standard version of the Su30. the Su30M2 not the Su30MK2

    • i meant uganda bought the standard commercial version the M2 not the MKK/MK2 with is actually Chinese version meant for china. A common confusion.

  366. Radars:
    Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE; 90-110km counter-air; 70-80km ground targets; 200-250km for large ships;MKK2

    Phazotron Zhuk-M-S, 140km counter-air, 300km large ships; Kupol M400 side-looking radar pod, controls 10x fighters; MKK3 (anti-ship naval version):

    The N011M BARS counter-air 120 km. radar sea-surface targets at a distance of up to 400 km ,MKM Malaysia, MKI india

    Tikomirov “Panda,” 190km counter air (est.); or new version of Zhuk-M-S. MKK3

    .EL/M-2032 air mode range of up to 150 km, -ground mode imagery of locations 150 km, sea mode can detect and classify naval targets up to 300 km. (F-5 upgrade)

    Counter check each radar from the internets.
    The airfore is collaborating with the US military to form F-5 squadrons with a sea strike capability and Ranger squadrons for the army.

  367. All i can say is that our planners should address this matter in near future,i mean an effective counter to this Su threat should be addressed and am more than sure this is in the mind of our planners.Nevertheless,even in my wildest nightmares,i do not conceive any situation where our neighbour wins any confrontation against Kenyan forces even with the benefit of these 6 Su’s.What makes an effective fighting force is not merely an acqisation of few weapons here and there.Ive fought alongside these fellas in congo and i will tell you what they are not.They are not an effective lethal army.What am saying here is that addressing whats at hand and not crossing the bridge before we come to it,we beat them in all facets needed to win a war.I would like to hear a contrary opinionbased on real stuff not emotions.

  368. Well i’ am not sure but i reckon the SU-30′s combat radius will bring far flung areas like Mombasa to well within its reach.
    I also know that F-5s operating from Eldoret or Kitale will very well hit western Uganda or Juba for that matter.
    Now my point is not to doubt our capacity as of now. I think you misunderstand me Risasi,One man army. My concern is the future and what reaction our military planners are taking.
    For now i will take Risasi;s advice that we cross the bridge when we get there and in the hope that military planners will respond appropriately to the inherent threats and do so very fast.
    Separately, where is our brother Jasiri?

  369. Guys,

    Having said that, isn’t it not within Kenya’s reach to purchase a jet like the F-16? If poor Uganda and Ethiopia can afford the Sukhois what then prevents East Africa’s largest economy from doing the same?

  370. wat happened to our hawks,are they still in service and wats their combat radious?

    do we have any plan a foot for more lethal machines,fighters and gunships??

    uganda have already procured for the 6fighters and they gonna be delivered in batch,first are arriving late this year and the bal. 4next year.

  371. lets not only fucus on our neighbours,rember Egypt has a problem with the lake victoria waters and threaterning to go to war with any country should they interfere with the flow of the nile.

    Egypt can strike any military in kenya as our forces watch.

    do we have any plan to avert such scenarios b4 our force melt in to civilian in case of war with the farah?

  372. Egypt will not win this war, believe me. They have a mighty well equipped and well trained military, but this will not be enough.
    To use force then they will have to occupy the 10 Nile basin countries starting with Ethiopia. Their army however large will be extremely overstretched. And then of course they will have to deal with active sabotage from among the citizenry of the affected countries. Do they have the endurance to survive in East African jungles while waging war in unfamiliar territory?
    And this is not all, any covert operation from affected countries that succeeds in knocking out the Aswan high dam will drive the war to an abrupt end with untold humanitarian consequences to Egypt.
    The best that Egypt can do therefore is to negotiate. Any chest thumping for war by virtue of their perceived military superiority will be to their disadvantage.

  373. I have total faith in our our military strategists but a word of advice to them since no has a monopoly of ideas is that we should go for the combat proven vipers and forget about the Sino FC-1 or J-11 because of their unproven record.

    Am also sure that Uncle Sam is watching the unfolding events closely and since we are a strong ally in the region, something could be in the offing in future(remember that Uncle Sam also faces the same threat we are facing of technologically advanced Russian fighters from his potential adversaries. I have Venezuela in mind).

    • i have reservations against hugging Uncle Sam’s legs to tight. This guy might just do something wild or use us to fight a proxy war for them. Separately though, now that Uganda has sukhoi’s they have unknowingly given Kenya a reason to tell the Foreign Military assistance office of the U.S should we choose to go to them for air cover.

  374. the ug Su are the basic models with Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE radars which have 90-110km counter-air; 70-80km ground targets; .this birds shouldn,t cause much threat. They can knock us down and we too can punch them out of the skies too.
    The Su30 has a range of 3000km. it can reach Mombassa. It has long distance radar and can perform the S cobra maneuvers. When it comes to radar tech the elm2032 is superior then the NIIIP N001VE radar.
    in dogfights and chasing the Su30 can climb and out maneuver the F-5 hands down. this has be solved by the f-5 acquiring the DASH helmet for its pilots . Display and Sight Helmet (DASH) enables pilots to aim their weapons simply by looking at the target. So what ever speed or a climb, the pilot has just to look at the target to engage it. Therefore the S cobra and the high speed climbs are taken care off at this point. its up to the zealousness of the pilots now.

    BvR capabilities with the missile called the R-77 range of 120km. this is what many fear. i.e they think that the R-77 can knock you out at a distance of 120km. Missiles are marketed with their maximum engagement range, which is very misleading when it comes to fast moving targets like Jets fighters.this is just a specification of the missile, marketing aspect. If the missile should engage a target head-on and the target is non-evading then at 120km it will knock it our.
    If the target is fast moving and taking evasive action, or in stern-chase position, causing the approaching missile to move in “S” like turns or any non linear moves the missile range will be reduced as it will burn out 120km fuel before reaching the target.

    http://www.elbitsystems.com/lobmainpage.asp?id=198

  375. Due to the size of the missile the radar is small i.e to fit inside a missile and is powered from batteries, its self Active radar homing range is limited to around 20km. in BvR missiles actually relays on the launch platform radar to guide it up to the 20km mark. If the launch platform gets in danger i.e is also attack and turns around the guided missile becomes useless. In advnace airforces AWACS guide the loose missiles while the Su30 moves to save distance or engage other targets .
    Kenya-ace mentioned. AWACS vitual equipments to use with this bird especially if they are to engage the F-5 with advance radars like the ELM2032. such infrastructures larks in ug.
    poorly-trained pilots, are known to fire their missiles at maximum-range engagement with poor results. In the 1998–2000 Eritrean-Ethiopian War, fighters from both sides shot over a dozen missiles at distance with little effect.
    The effective range of an air-to-air missile is known as the “no-escape zone”, the range at which the target can not evade or runaway from the missile once launched. This reduces the R-77 range by as much as 75%–80% to 20–25 km.

  376. Are our F-5 fighter pilots equipped with these DASH helmets?

  377. Separately, it still beats me why Northrop had to cancel the F-20 Tigershark.
    This low cost fighter jet could have found ready customers from among US cold war allies that were already using the F-5.
    One wonders if they can re-think this decision.

  378. the tigershark was killed by the US Navy and Airforce reluctance to buy them.i dont know why it was an excellent machine, it used 53% less fuel, it had 63% lower operting cost, and required 52% less maintainance cost than its main rival the F – 16 N. in the end the US Navy bought the F – 16N at a knocked down price that was still higher than the tag price of the F – 20.ironically the F – 16N was quietly retired due to a cracked airframe and replaced by the fighting falcon.
    the F – 20 was a privately funded venture by Northrop. If we have the cash plus a little goodwill and co – operation from like minded states am sure we could partner up and revive this project just imagine if that plane was that good then in the mid 80s how much better can it be made with modern avionics and technology. all it takes is a little negotiation.

  379. Well yes, like-minded countries could apply to license produce the plane. I’ am sure countries like Taiwan, Brazil and even South Korea, singapore, Malaysia are gonna like the idea especially on the strength of cost and maitainance. Even us the Kenyans, this plane will be of much interest.

  380. The F-20 project is very attractive however to me it seems like a long shot. Even if we get a few countries to agree it would take years to redevelop this aircraft and bring it up to mass production standards. Not to mention the waiting time before delivery. What we need is a quick solution within the next 3 years.
    In my view we need at least 6 4th or 4.5 generation fighters and an AEW&C aircraft. The Saab Erieye fits the bill in my books for the AWACS role. In the fighter i see a split between the FC – 1 and the F – 16 block 40/42 aircraft. With the recent tilt towards sino sourcing i would bet that the FC – 1 has a better chance of being aquired. however if we are to rely on proven ability the F-16 is certainly tops. Morocco acquired 24 of the F-16 block 40/42 for 2 billion dollars. This is the full price including spares,logistics and training costs plus “after sale services”. This was not a country to country deal, they procured the birds directly from lockheed which means they were brand new. Considering that we would be in the market for a smaller number of the aircraft lets say maybe 8 and chances of us going after new ones are slim i dont think the price tag would be very prohibitive. I still think the JF-17 is the more likely choice. Wikipedia states that 2 African countries have expressed interest in the jet one being Zimbabwe. The other one has not been publicly announced yet but watch this space.

  381. I think the F-16 wouldn’t be a good deal. I would prefer it as an item in the arsenals but not a pivot for defense. they should be supplemented with other Fighters from a reliable source. the USA mistreats its clients when it falls out with them. Countries like India who wanted to procure 250 jets for its AFlead to the USA offering the F-18 super hornet plus its blue prints, which would have helped them develop the LCA, but due to the USA track records on after sale service they withdrew from the offer.

    the Block 40/42 will be a plus but nothing more then that. due to its capabilities, a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program would have to be forged by the USA to Kenya unlike the Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) program, which oversees sales between foreign governments and private U.S. companies. USAF FMS programs are assigned two-word codenames beginning with the word PEACE .in the FMS program the purchaser does not deal directly with the defense contractor; instead, to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency. an intermediary, usually handling procurement, logistics and delivery and often providing product support and training.
    FMS for the middle eastern/Arab countries (Bahrain, Egypt, U.A.E, Jordan all having the F-16) are attached to recognizing and peace treaties with Israel. The USA uses the FMS for its own political agendas.
    This is the trick part after Kenya ran to the East subsequently ranking low in The Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program from the USA (grants and loans to purchase weapons produced in the United States). I think Sino procurements will be tempered with the USA in the FMS deal if the country is to be give the F-16. this would be a good bargaining chip. Mambo si rahisi hivyo ndugu zanguni.

    I still believe the J-10 , FC-1 or at least the JF-17 would be a good feature candidate. These are my own observation based on my experiences I stand to be corrected.

    List of F-16 FMS

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operators#Summaries_of_F-16_deliveries

  382. I concur with you Risasi, however if uncle Sam becomes that stingy, we could still go for other alternatives from among west European suppliers. Good examples are the French and the Swedes. I have in mind the SAAB JAS-39 Gripen or even the Mirage 2000.
    Better still and on the strength of cost, we have the Chinese with the FC-1 or the J-10. What about the J-11?
    Incidentally, what will prevent us from turning to the Russians as well? I’ am sure this move will greatly please the Russians while of course angering uncle Sam, but haven’t we done this before with the T-72s?
    Yes i know the T-72s were procured from Ukraine, but they are Russian/ Soviet made and we will not be the first to turn East either. Nigeria and Zimbabwe both did the same out of frustration with their western suppliers.

  383. Mirage 2000 performed poorly in the indo/paki war and had to be upgraded a lot. I think European equipments are good for support equipments like radars, radios, missiles etc. but the main tools like fighters JAS-39 or Mirage 2000??? I feel there better fighters then these
    The j-11 = Su30 . the J-11 is out of production. It’s obsolete avionics and radar lacked any true precision-strike capabilities, only being able to deliver unguided freefall bombs . Its radar Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE (like the Ug ones) , can simultaneously track 10 targets. However, when engaging a target out of the 10 tracked, all of the rest 9 targets tracked would be lost, and restart a new tracking process after the engagement.
    China is replacing the Russian-made J-11components with domestic, Chinese-made components. This has lead to the production of the J-11B.This is the advanced multirole version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. Its still in trail china operates 18 J-11B.

    • so the best option will be for us to aquire the J-11 and upgrade/Pimp it with western/Israeli avionics right? that makes a lot of sense. in addition we will match the su-30′s range and outmatch it’s performance.

  384. What prevents us from buying Russia equipments is that most of their equipments are not to Nato standards, unlike Ukraine which offers the same equipment in Nato standards. Most Kenya equipments are of Nato standard. a good example is the Ethiopia (ex Yemeni Russian supplied) vs. Kenya’s (Ukrainian with NATO standards) T-72 tanks. The Ethiopian, Russian supplied Tanks operate optical rangefinder (inferior) unlike the TPD-K1 laser rangefinder Kenya’s Ukrainian tanks have among other features. This vital in modern warfare as this gives a one shot one kill probability as the distance from the target is measured accurately. They also operate the KBM2 auto-loaded main gun that fire NATO 120 mm ammunition unlike the Russian T-72 that fire 125mm ammunition.

  385. I think the best option is to buy russian.Uncle sam comes with too many strings attached and he is left holding onto those strings pulling them whenever its convenient for him.Furthermore russians are driven by hunger for money while selling this equipment and would care less whats its intended use might be.Am a ground worrior am not an expert in the air but thats my take in this ever interesting debate.
    Risasi take it from here and offer your wisdom on the best option for us.

  386. Well, Risasi is right. We can source from Ukraine and the Chinese.
    I think the government is also right in turning to the east (read China). Not only is their equipment cheap , the quality is rapidly improving too. Besides, they don’t have a lot of conditions like the west.

  387. Risasi, from your comments above, i want to believe that most Chinese equipment will have no problem fitting into our NATO standard arsenal. Is that true?

  388. Olekoima, I’m back. i Had an emergency mission redirect. The chinese weapons will fit coz China sells you the basic fighter and they care less how you modify it as long as it is within the parameters of the agreement.

  389. Olekoima on China equipments with NATO standards update yourself with my articles posted on April 29, 2009 at 10:59 pm to on April 29, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    .When the F-5 plus passes its useful life avionics used ( http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/27546.pdf )
    in the F-5 plus can service the FC-1. Similarity in avionics operations between the tiger III and the Dragon will easy upgrade /training pilots from one cockpit to the other. That’s why I advocate for the FC-1. Have you drove a friends car and find yourself searching for the indictor or the lights switches? kitu kama hivyo. Smooth continuous and quick change over. I thought UG would have opted for the Mig29 as it share similar cockpits with MiG21 but that’s up to them.

    J-11 is basically a Russia plane made in China. It adheres to strict user agreements from Moscow. The only modified Su30 with western avionics is the MKA (Algeria) .It’s use Russian FCS, radar, ECM, weaponry and is fitted with French made HUD, LCD and Damocles Pod. Its basically still relays on Russian technology apart from the cockpit displays units. I think the agreement lock major modifications.

  390. [...] Kenya Airforce buys junk fighter jets, "The Chronicle Nairobi If an F-5 fuel in 1700 and dental problems compared to arms or a Mig-23 F-7 dental problems with 3505 kg or 5000 kg of gold "the TWR will be greater and its lesser. TWR now joins the list above list mean fair to compare fighters. As for the Persian war, as stated before …… Listen, man. Welcome back. It was a bit lost without you, mate, aviation matters. You might want to do well in the field of war and air to mix with some queries Jasira – not my job at all, you know. … [...]

  391. hahaha hes funny!

  392. This guy seems to exhibit an unbelievable ability to be delusional.what in the world is he talking about?let him not kill this conversation.lets say he is another spartan guy who has his world twisted and poorly informed.

  393. Hey, Jasiri. I reckon you’re blown, mate!! Go Dark, or watch your six!

  394. Cost-effectiveness? Is Kenya’s our Military Doctrine offensive or defensive ? Which of these birds respond to our explicit national military doctrine? In a couple of weeks, we can get delivered and put into Combat Service 15 fully upgraded souped-up F-5E Tiger II and probably another 5 thrown in free of charge, completely “real-time” combat-compliant, plus all the ordnance to obliterate Kampala, Entebbe and Mbarare, for the price of one SU30MK which those UG fellas will take years learning to fly and keep in the Air!!

  395. OR 10 F5E Tiger II and use the equivalent of 5 F5E tiger II (gifted by defense protocols existent) to get more of our fly boys mobilised! OR the equivalent of the same quota and a meatier 50AirCalv tank-eaters! Or the same with a Dozen new High-lift covert insertion / extraction- specific Rotary Transporters even now badly needed. Not quite certain but I reckon with our current Fighter-pilot training regimen we can put out over 100 Birds in Effective Combat Readiness in the space of two months of start of general hostilities!! And these birds are not restricted to the Tigers II coz a good number of our fly boys have substantive hours with the F15E and F16 Fighting Falcons already!

  396. Some hard cash facts you fly boys are not telling about these basically identical multi-role birds. JF-17 Thunder US$ 15 million; F-16A/B US$14.6 million; F-16E/F US$26.9 million;Chengdu-10 US$27.84 million USD;; Mikoyan MiG-29 US$29 million; JAS 39 Gripen US$40-61 million (minus VAT!);

  397. Su-27 US$30 million; Su-30 US$33–45 million Multi-role fighter; F-5A/B Freedom Fighter F-5E/F Tiger II US$2.1 million!!

  398. Therefore I postulate that it does not make sense to respond to perceived threats unless such dynamics inform the responses, asymptomatic of the decades-old Arab countries’ responses to Israel’s carefully executed Offensive Military Preps – huge spending on all manner of weapon systems without strategic value( they lost a war in 6 days, guys!!). Hence, the configuration of our response to UG and SUDAN is /must remain unique to each of them, as deliberate national defense challenge. Up ti ll present times, our strategic posturing is Defensive, everything we do, including our dirty jobs abroad, (black ops and Covert Intel) is only just that! But wait till this should change to OFFENSIVE!! Well!!!

  399. Just another thought gentlemen, if our air defense capability is in top form then we don’t need to worry about what air-crafts our neighbours are equipping themselves with for they will find it almost impossible to penetrate our air space.Remember what the Egyptians did in the Yom Kippur war 1973? They enjoyed good protection from several batteries of SA missiles and almost rendered the mighty Israeli air-force powerless.
    This makes a lot of sense for us too especially considering that our military doctrine is defensive in nature.

  400. Precisely my view, Olekoima. We have no need to waste our resources on equipment and men on a threat counter that our present defensive posturing neutralises many times over. Indeed kenya is light years from ever really being threatened by any of these johnny-come-lately cowboys growing in our backyard today. You are a soldier, and you must know from our wargames simulations that we will have effectively neutered all active cordinated resistence in Kampala City and environs 72 hours from open hostilities, and a large swathe of eastern Uganda too. We can restrict all fighting with the Sudan within the Sunan itself. Ethiopia may hit sporadically Isiolo, but the key word is SPORADICALLY. Hell, we have trained to fight two fronts if need be, for Decades, and our Training and Stores has this capacity.

  401. What is the primary purpose of a multi-role fighter plane, if I may ask? I am not a fly-boy, just a bush-grunt. But damnit, if you analyse the configuration of UDPF, and its capacity to war conventional warfare, how do you see them complementing the efforts of the SU-30MKK? Indeed, can you not see how mis-matched this sort of military marraige is? Tis like having a bird in the air, and no airfield to land it on, guys – that bird is bloody useless, as good as lost. For UG to fully reap any benefits of those SU-30MKK, it will involve much much more than just training some ground crews and jockeys to fly them, starting with their military philosophy which will re-engineer their entire miltary doctrine. These birds would never have been purchased in any situation where rationality and not political statements are utilised. And as you all know the UPDF is just one large political statement that is used to intimidate the civilian population by the political elites’ exclusive monopoly and propensity to violence. Sudan is too disfunctional as a state to even defeat a rag-tag pooly led and equiped guerilla outfit, while Ethiopia has nothing to say in this situation!!

  402. Thank you gents for your precise and excellent comments. As I always tell to whoever cares to listen that Kenyans should go about their business in peace and sleep soundly as night as we are capable of dealing with any airborne threat 24/7. Our motto still stands “Tuko Imara Angani” and “Twailinda anga yetu”.

    Let no one intimidate us by acquiring a 4.5+ generation fighter. I agree it’s a formidable weapon but we are more than ready to nip it in the bud and clobber senseless anyone who tries to violate our airspace and sovereignty.

  403. am still not convinced that we do not need new generation fighters. dont get me wrong i think that in a dogfight situation id rather be an observer inside a kenyan F-5 rather than anywhere else.what worries me is those BVR missile capabilities and electrical warfare suits the SU-30s possess. face it guys those are clear advantages. the enemy will know they are facing better trained and more experienced pilots i doubt they will be eager to participate in dogfights plus those birds of their are too expensive and few to risk. besides if one of those BVR missile hits a target imagine the kind of morale boost they will get. i suggest giving them no joy, overwhelming them in every sphere of battle it doest make strategic sense.we beat them on the ground but we give them a clear advantage in the air when we dont necessarily have to.i f i was a Ug general i would use the SU30s speed and power to stifle Kilo Alpha’s strong points. i would especially harass the tank battalion make sure the 81st cant advance and if they do at a price too dear while at the same time keeping my BVRs ready to take out any aircraft that comes to support. remember the UPDF is essentially a guerrilla war unit thats their strong point.they know they possess inferior firepower so it is unlikely they would come out for a pitched battle.by taking out our armour and other strong points like transport conveys,artie and communication installations the sky would be the limit.literally.
    FC – 1 with modified radar suit to enable it to see the SU-30s before they see them would be just the thing to fix this loophole.mwasemaje?

  404. Thanks D for your counter actions comments. Its good to brainstorm on the subjects .it opens new horizons of thought. I talked about the BvR aspect kitambo kidogo .( Risasi, on April 17, 2010 at 10:10 pm) on the same issue of BvR. For a BvR missile to engage the Launch aircraft has to illuminate its target with its radar until the missile is at a range switch on its own radar. If the launch aircraft is distorted or comes into danger and has to escape then the lock would break and the missile would be useless. Similar experiences were exhibited in the Ethiopian / Eritrean theaters. In modern AF the missile is then controlled by data link from AWACS and the launched aircraft reside to a safe area. Continues illumination by a radar to an aircraft triggers a RwR alarm and evasive actions will be taken . UG BvR would be such a threat. .

    Secondly the radar type of the Su30MK2 (Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE) that the UG bought is Inferior in range to the ELM2032 (see specs on Risasi, on April 16, 2010 at 9:13 pm ) of the tiger III. The tiger will see the Flanker well ahead. To add to this the two type of missile that we intend to get will enable the Tiger to shoot direct behind it 360 deg coverage without turning. we still haven’t looked at the BuK deployments etc. I don’t see any problem here guys hata bila a new fighter. The F-5 will be phased out due to its aging frame and maintenance requirements lakini at the moment it can Defend.

  405. convincing i must have only skimmed through those posts when i got back i did not read and analyze them.but there is something we have always had in our forces that we are losing if we don’t invest in new fighters: deterrence value gentlemen do you think even with ELM2032 radar and BuK SAMs we put enough scare in UGs psychology to stop them from trying anything with their new fighters?i hope so.
    Still on the issue of birds i think its about time we got some high altitude tactical if we go chinese i would think of the shaanxi Y-9 or the C-27J Spartan.they have about the same range and payload and are perfect for our airborne troops.

  406. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

    this site should clear the air about capability of any flanker generation vis a vis an F-5 upgrade. Its very clear who weaker in the air now,we need a very serious capability upgrade

  407. Spearhead, in a possible Armed Conflict in which Air warfare is but one component of it, the conclusion you seek is untenable in military terms. Not intending to accuse my colleagues of tunneling our vision since, because of specialization, I reckon the arguments being proffered here must take the little slant / biases of the Military Branch preponderantly expressing itself– in this case it clearly the Air-force. But the Fly-boys will be first to acknowledge any war with UG will be short and crisp, multi-faceted, involving all our Military-Civilian capabilities not least of course being those Tigers III you conclude are “out-marched by the SU300MKK” (by form-book alone, and I disagree they are out-marched). From a broader Military strategic perspective as I indicate above, whatever tactical advantage the SU30MKK form-book portends are wiped out and far outweighed by the counter-force that we can bring to bear upon these birds and their support structures. For instance, they have to get airborne to project their much touted capacities against them TIGER III, and I can guarantee you we can ensure they never get wheeled out of their bunkers – already in simulated training!! Should our Delta teams miss out any of them on the Ground, they will have to land outside UG to refuel or die! Hell, best option for M7 will be to ship them off to Kigali at the first sign of open Hostilities with us!! I repeat, for UG to reap any benefits of those SU-30MKK, it will involve much, much more than just training some ground crews and jockeys to fly them. But against Kenya, he will have to do even much more than that – revolutionize his Military Philosophy and re-define his Military Doctrine completely. Ours focuses on multi-components of Warfare (Military-Civilian), and prepares for synchronized, coordinated responses. So phasing out those Tigers III will not be in reaction to the SU30MKK in our neighborhood

  408. AFTER doing lots of research and finding that indeed Uganda is purchasing these fourth generation air superiority fighters…..the SU30MKK….WE NEED TO URGENTLY RETHINK our defence strategy quickly.We cannot trust M7.HE IS even talking nuclear…..the third generation second hand F5 tigers we are buying from JORDAN WILL do us no good.
    THREE SU30MKK WITH good pilots can have complete air dominance over kenyan airspace very quickly…we need answers now and quickly…

  409. am not so sure about that patrick understand what son of Nkarei says. those birds alone cannot translate to complete air superiority. i am still of the opinion it would not hurt for us to acquire some new birds not to phase out the tigers but to lend support in certain areas the tigers may fall short, for civilian morale and deterence value and also a little national pride on my part but tactically 12 tiger IIs and 15 tiger IIIs are more that a match for 6 or even 10 SU 30 MK2s.
    in order to completely tackle this issue assess the military doctrines and SOPs of the two nations plus the mindsets of essential civilian and military assets while heading into a conflict. The ugandans will probably mass near the border with no intention of penetrating or gaining any acreage in the early phases of the war (remember we speak hypothetically) while we would have implemented Long Range Reccon deep inside enemy territory, sabotage and disinfo ops and a few tactical takeouts (i would gladly put a bullet between a SU 30 mercenary pilot’s eyes). hinging an entire war effort on those few birds as good as they might be is suicidal. what would happen if in one swoop 2 of them were taken out on the ground, 1 in a non combat accident and another 2 taken out by air defenses?notice i have not included a single tiger in this very likely scenario. we are talking a complete breakdown in morale. in any case given the multi faceted strategy kenya would employ in such a conflict the flankers would soon find themselves overstretched and overwhelmed unless the Ugandans decide to ship them off to Kigali their only option in doing this would be to use them inside ugandan airspace only. they should get 6 more to get me quacking in my jungle boots.
    and no i also dont think M7 can go nuclear. he said he desires a nuclear free world. even he is not that crazy. but in meeting with Ahdminejad (hard name isnt it) you have to wonder………..hey the CGS was recently in Israel. this crazy world we live in.

  410. THIS IS PURELY FICTIONAL, NOT AT ALL A CONTINGENCY PLAN OF THE ARMED FORCES OF KENYA – JUST FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ALONE.
    Operation LAZA M7.
    Day 1. At 04H30 Open Hostilities with Uganda, Pathfinder elements of 20th Paras HALO-jump off KAF Transport Planes and abscalling out of Puma Helios; take and hold Entebbe; SU-30MKK destroyed on the ground in Entebbe.
    06H30 – deep-insertion Delta & CDU long embedded inside UG have paralysed /crippled the entire UDPF Command & Communication/ Control structure; staging fields East of Mbarare / South of GULU taken out – mined or cratered.
    Accelerated large-scale 20th Paras landings at Entebbe, surburbs Kampala. Strategic Positions taken / taken out. Large-scale population fragmentation tactics by Delta and CDU – Civies flee, Kampala empties .
    Full-strength Armored break-out through Busia, Malaba and several other border points at speed. Engineers, Mechanized Infantry and Artillery Divisions in full chase.
    08H00 All other Combat Aircraft, both fixed and rotary winged wiped out in their bankers parking aprons by KAF Tac-wing and deep-insertion Delta and CDU, Dog-fights Eastern Uganda
    10H00 50th Air Calvary Killer-MD 500 ranging along Advance deep-franking this egress, all hard/fortified positions by-passed for later attention. Tororo encircled , by-passed, Armored pincer- columns move on full-tilt toward Kampala. Ground troops jump off Border, destroying by-passed fortified position, consolidate Strategic points and mop-up behind Advance.
    12H00. Heavy selective 120mm Artillery bombardment of Kampala Suburbs, target-ranging by the Delta & CDU. KAF F5E Tigers and Air Calv MD 500, WZ-9s Helios weapons-free over Kampala. Marauding lead 81st Armored T-72 MBTs in the suburbs of Kampala City with the MD 500 and WZ-9s in tow. KAF full Tac-CAP ring Eldoret to Mbarare/ Kabale, Air suppression attained entire UG. Exit Funnel to Western Sector created.
    18H00 The UPDF stream out of Eastern Sector in full rout through Exit Funnel towards Mbarare Western Uganda, Helio-borne Delta & CDU, Air Calv MD 500, WZ-9s Helios, F5E Tigers, 81st MBTs in search-and-destroy sorties .
    Day 2. Hon. Kikwete, Kagame, Meles, Kabila, Clinton, Aanan fly into Nairobi.
    Intensive FBU in Kampala another two days Delta, CDU,1stbtn 3rd btn 20th btn KAR, 50th Air Calv, KAF CAP engaged; organised, coordinated resistance wiped out in Kampala ,
    Day 3. M7 arrive in Nairobi, sues for peace.
    Hold-Position orders issued. ALL FORWARD MOVEMENT CEASES.

  411. Interesting,
    Ole Nkarei, i thought it might be good to include what responses the UPDF might offer during the various phases of war. They will want to salvage some National pride hence will not take the beating lying down. What do you thing the patern of their response will look like?

  412. First hypothesis is that the objective of this Action is not economic, and therefore holding of ground captured, but a clear and unequivocal political statement for a either change of leadership or attitudes of present regime to Kenya. So that the objective is basically to capture and hold even for a short while the seat of Government in UG. Consequently military action would be a quick, crisp, campaign using maximum and overwhelming force, waging a rapidly developing, highly mobile war to take Kampala in the shortest period. Even a partial occupation of the seat of power would suffice this objective.
    UG options at this (Day 2)moment would be rather limited, and none with any immediate military or political benefit. Since we would not be aiming to subjugate and economically exploit our advance, considerations by M7 for an armed drawn-out resistance through unconventional means would not have substance. At this point, his Military Council will advise M7 to sue for peace or get rid of him themselves.
    The political angles and ramifications of this vista is not my concern, am just a grunt seeing this purely from a military prism.

  413. THIS IS A BELATED POST MEANT FOR SPEARHEAD, kenya-ace, patrick(uk) and D
    You have posted a site having several derivatives of Su’s. we are concerned with the the Su-30MKK. This is our ball of contention. On my posting dated on April 16, 2010 at 8:43 pm and below it I outlined its performance visa vie other Su30. the Su30mkk is similar to the Chinese J-11 in most aspect. This aircraft performed poorly with the Chinese Airforce . Obsolete avionics, radar and lack of true precision-strike capabilities(only able to deliver unguided freefall bombs
    ) lead to the Chinese abandoning it. Its radar the N001 radar can track 10 targets, but during engagements with 1, the rest 9 targets tracked would be lost. a new retracking process after the engagement had to be started. It lacks 4.5th generation capabilities. This lead to the Chinese abandoning it and upgrade it to J-11B or the SuMKK3.
    read through this web page.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11#Modern_J-11

    To summaries it up the Su30MKK2 lacks the true cababilties of a 4.5th generation fighter.
    At the moment any aspect of the Su-30MKK2 can be dealt with. Just like a football team, employing good strikes doesn’t warrant an out right win. From the side line coaches to the resever bench all have to play their parts and be ready. The team has to hold up as a team and every department has to functioning in order to win. You and I know that if 50% of your force is destroyed then troop moral falls and you will certainly loss the battle and eventually the war.
    They is nothing that the Su30 has that we can’t deal with. Kindly posts some if you know I will be glad to discuses it.

    To D, we can’t stop the will of a nation to launch an offensive. We can’t scare them for that matter its up to them. If they think they are able well and good. In fact in my opinion I wish them the best let them move ahead and mount one. The country is well prepared. The troop carrier you posted are good crafts. my favorite would be the Y-8F400

  414. VERY intresting snapshot of war analysis…but you have not shown the rate of attrition on the kenyan side for instance at the end of the first 6 hours what sort of casualties do we expect on both sides…and by the way how come body armour is not standard equipment among our troops?…anyway i agree with you that the key to winning a war with UG lies in a rapid and massive mobilisation of all assetts …more like the “blitzkriegg” that HITLER used to overrun Poland in second world war where in two weeks the polish army had surrendard likewise france….fell within 30 days. but in kenya uganda situation can we sustain a war for more than 14 days?and supposing that we are attacked on two fronts eg all shabab from the east and ugandans on the west?

  415. by the way have the TIgers been delivad?when do kenyans get to see them in public? june 1st or october 20th

  416. All said and done, our military planners must have taken note of the new developments and hopefully will be coming up with full proof counter measures. I’ am sure even TZ will not want to be caught off-guard.

  417. You ever wonder how Galang Heliocrash? First the world knew of this was by a encrypted short burst sat-com picked up by American NSA satellites over the Central Africa that Kenya Air Defense “ has confirmed a Helio down in frames”. Galang had been in negotiations with M7to construct a enormous rail, road bypass Juba-Kampala, furthering American designs to base their Central African activities from UG due to M7 “unique characteristics” since Kenya under Narc had become unreliable and to assertive of Nationalistic independence. The consequence would have changed the geopolitical-economic map of entire great-lakes region beyond recognition with a transference of the pivotal position to UG from Kenya. Previously long agreed pact with Kenya & SPLA was Juba-Nakuru-Mombasa, and Juba-Isiolo-Lamu. Ergo – Galang designated a “clear-and-present-danger” to National Interest of Kenya, and a legitimate focus for our aggressor-attention. His activities/movement under covert surveillance every step, reverse flight from Mbarare flight-plan already consistent to earlier intel, tracked right up to crash site. Unluckily some deep-insertion Delta chaps in crash area before the helio went down, and generally sanitized it prior to the noisy Americans arrival from base in Djibouti, got caught on NSA eavesdropping satellite

    • Delta4, remember as a soldier your obligation is not only to protect the nation in times of aggression but also not to divulge potentially flammable information that can endanger ongoing and future ghost operations. Information that isn’t on the public domain shouldn’t be divulged much less in a forum with a shockingly wide readership as this one. Keep your skin safe.
      That being said, the Kenya armed forces isn’t a political party and some sentiments expressed here might not necessarily be true and in fact may just be by products of a highly creative and patriotic mind.

  418. DELTA 4…can you explain what you mean….what are you saying here?

  419. Pat. it is not coded, but in the clear. Raise specifics queries, and lets me respond, if I can.

  420. just to put it out there am a full red blooded kenyan green berret to the core if i argue counter measures to kenyan military actions its for the blog’s continuity sake.make no mistakes about where my allegiance lies. having said that i think all the uniforms in this page have maintained exceptional professionalism and steered clear of unsubstantiated political conspiracy theories (read Delta4).
    ok now that we have that in the clear, i turn my attention to the Col’s hypothetical battle plan. i find it tactically sound,simple and realistic. but as you know sir nothing in war ever goes according to plan. i would be weary of the Uganda Spec. Forces the so called Mamba Battalion situated in Bombo Barracks, i have had personal contact with em they aint no D Coy but boy are those boys tough. Spetnatz trained in unconventional warfare, they are the cream de la cream of the UPDF. i met a contingent of them during the war games in TZ a few years back when i was still green in the horns and i tell you if the bridge on Jinja kampala Road is not secured and its perimeter cleared those guys will get to it and sabbotage it to prevent the 81st from reaching kampala. that area is a jungle. so driving those T-72s through is next to impossible, getting the sappers to dig a road through is also out of the questions coz it will take too long i suggest flashing those men out of their base with some intense bombing at the commencement of hostilities. at the least disorient them and separate the juniors from the chain of command also be sure to send in elements of an infantry btlln with arttie support in a search and destroy mission through this forest or at least to keep the remnants of this elite UPDF unit busy. after that be sure to capture towns like Iganga and Jinja in my view they are more strategically placed than Tororo. while in Jinja secure Kakira airstrip for use as an FOB for 50th ACB and Heli transports.

  421. am interested in the afternath after colonel garangs helicopter crash…

    • Pat, what dayaymean the aftermath of the Crash? From what perspective do you refer? DO you perharps intend to ask who benefitted from this crash, and who lost what? Or how the event was written such that no subsequent queries about it arose? C’mon, man, be clear. And while you are about it, mull over the insidious silence of the SLPM leadership post the Mourning period, and why just a few years later there is little mention of Galang in the SPLM leadership beyond the annual half-hearted commemoration of the death. Have you seen any overt rapproachment between Silva Kir and M7 since the funeral? Beyond the ocassional cross-border meeting? Any further talk about egress through Kampala to Juba? After Galang went, Southern Sudan is still firmly the 9th integral Province of Kenya, as it had been for years. In espionage and black ops, what you see is not ever what you get.

  422. Granted “D”on all points. The simulation isnt written on stone, just a quick hip-shot to get attention away from the fly-boys jinking around with these fighter terminologies that are simply in the ozone layer for most of us!! But seriously, how then did you rate a Mamba coy against our green berets coy? Their equipment both Machine and Man? Leadership, education and training, esprit of Corp, motivation, cohesiveness, etc.? Most importantly how did you reckon their interface with the gum-booted colleagues ? Unit-size mobility and displacement? You reckon they do cross-training also, like we do, or are they not just tough SOB with an AK? What if covert insertion teams with the AirCalv isolated them and kept them busy within a secure perimeter? The simulation rotates around a very rapid armoured push along a broad advance secured by bridgeheads taken and held by air-borne troops, with flanking deep ranging combat Fixed and Rotary wings in support on full attack mode. In real-time simulations however, and you bloody well know this, it is possible to take and hold Jinja bridge with air-borne units until Armoured Units provide relief. Jinja is the only real strategic obstacle to Kampala, and for economic reasons, UG will NOT destroy it in any short exchange with Kenya. Get a few of your guys and mull over this simulation.
    By the way, the Galang thing might not be a hypothesis. Just sniff around your reliable colleagues in Delta and CDU.

  423. hamujambo my kenyan brothers. You are in deep denial. You no longer posses a superior air force. The capabilities of the SU 30 overmatch any thing in the KAF and besides you keep talking about just the six sukhois but that’s not the entire fleet. This is part of the fleet that is known (as you may now know the Ugandan government prefers to keep its arsenal a secret that’s why they were mad at the Russians for breaking the news about the SU purchase) 8 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Floggers and 10 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Fishbeds, 5 Aero L-39 Albatroses, one Aermacchi SF-260, and 6 Mil Mi-24 Hind, with five further ‘Hinds’ unserviceable. This is what is known nobody knows the exact arsenal apart from the high military commanders. Most of their purchases are done hush hush through arms dealers like victor bout.
    Now about the infantry; there is that no nonsense commando outfit of the black mamba and the PGB which museveni intends to transform into the most elite force in africa (his son the Fort Leavenworth and sundhurst trained colonel belongs to this unit) to contend with that is besides the regular army.
    People there is a reason why the US and UK use uganda as the policeman/mercinary of the region. They trust their capabilities. And stop this talk about kenya being a strong alley to the US. You have Washington snub kibaki and odinga year after year while they are not asking museveni to pay the fine assessed on him for looting congo and other issues with opposition politicians. Yes there was a time kenya was a favored by the west but that mantle has been taken over by Uganda and Rwanda also getting some pity because of the genocide.
    So wajama snap out of the denial (its not a river in egypt. I don’t why white ppl say that since its source is in uganda)

    • Sadly the action by UG to arm themselves with sophisticated SU-30MK2s will have far reaching security implications in the region and will only lead to a renewed arms race that will not cease any time soon.
      Tororo, we are not in denial and neither are we downplaying the threat from your newly acquired arsenal which i must say appears to give you the upper hand on paper at least for now. Suffice is to say that we have taken note and will be responding appropriately. Let’s see who will sustain the tempo of the arms race which you have sadly provoked.
      Finally we will care less if UG and Rwanda are now Washington’s blue eyed boys in the region. There is not much to be gained there especially in the light of all the conditions they attach to everything they offer. We are much better off with the East (read China ). Good luck for you though.
      You will have noticed that since 2002, we have increasingly moved east. This has paid dividends and we have no apologies to make. Also we no longer need to obey some useless conditions.

      • Lest you forget, we still host large US and British military facilities in this region. We will not lose sleep if they choose to relocate to UG.

  424. Hey “D”- you know Intelligence activities and all their Component such as those Delta4 insinuates on the Galang crash, start off a mere conspiracies with interpretations of National Policies, both foreign and domestic , that define National Growth. The Delta and CDU are but simply extensions of clearly but politically developed National Policies. Guys spend full days, months on ends analysing every bit of information that would have impact on National Growth, following which yet other guys spend full days, months on end interpreting the picture that develops. Subsequently other groups of guys then follow through making contingencies based on the interpretations arrived. Finally these contingencies are placed before planning units of such fellas as Delta and CDU, and if the political decision to use the spearhead of the whole process going on before is taken, in they go!! A hell of a lot of work goes into these things. The Galang Chopper was part of the Ferry-team assigned to M7 air transportation, flown and serviced by Ukrainians. Just returned to UG from extensive overhaul and refitting abroad. Now factor in the prognosis contained in Delta4 post, without wearing blinkers, particularly remembering the political realities of greater East Africa at the time. And for the sake of military arguments, you still think this is idle unsubstantiated Gossip?

  425. Tororo,

    You really amuse me when you say that there is a reason why UK and US prefer to use Uganda as the policeman of the region.
    Which region are you referring to? East Africa or Central Africa?
    If it is Central Africa then you may be right for both Kenya and Tanzania will be far off anyway and we know you are the undisputed champion there.However if you are referring to East Africa then you are dead wrong for you will have to contend with both Kenya and Tanzania before you can crow.
    And when i say Central Africa, i mean areas around DRC, Burundi and Rwanda. Beyond there you meet other powerful forces much better than you.
    Has it occurred to you that you could be a proxy for someone else to plunder the resources of DRC? Think big brother and see the big picture. This might help to explain your policeman business.

  426. Your contribution is welcome Tororo but we don’t live in denial.

    A few cold FACTS for you brother. The F-5E’s in our arsenal brother are not junk fighters. The F-5E is an excellent fighter which is cheap and easy to maintain- but it still packs a formidable punch.

    The F-5E is fondly known as “the baby fighter that takes on the top-guns”(ask any tactical pilot in the USAF who has flown against this baby fighter and he will put your questions to rest). Even the RJAF pilots from where we bought our birds have flown it in mock dogfights with USAF F-15′s and the kill ratios were close to 1:1 in close quarter combat( W.V.R forget B.V.R).

    The Tiger is still in wide use throughout the world even by developed countries such as Switzerland. Austria at one time even leased some Tigers from the Swiss as a stop-gap measure before they got the Typhoon.

    Since you have started an arms race in the region because of your newly found oil wealth, lets see if you’ll be able to sustain it.

    By the way, acquiring six Su-30′s enhances your capabilities on paper but it takes more than that to send shivers down the spines of fly-boys in the KAF. With all due respect, and I repeat again, with all due RESPECT, we can clobber you senseless while posing minimum risk to ourselves- anytime, any day with or without your Flankers. My brother, it takes years to train a combat pilot( or are you planning to hire Russian mercenaries in this case) and it’s skill that matters up in the air. Let me pause my comments for now…. I’ll be back in a short while.

  427. Dr. Garangs death was a life changing event in this region. it was mysterious, that i do not dispute and i also know deep down that it wasnt an accident, au contraire it was pre planned and human executed. what i think is hogwash is the attempt to outrightly pin it on M7.if the man had anything to do with it i think he was purely a hatchet man and nothing more, the general dynamics and behind the scenes happenings of this event point to more powerful forces at play. just ask yourself who is to benefit come the birth of a new nation in the region with richness of resources. its an open secret who funded the SPLA, the veterans and refugees still get paid in green bucks, SPLA bank accounts are well known in the intelligence circles to be registered to western registered cover companies, then all of a sudden when SPLA becomes SPLM guess who turns east and is eventually killed for his troubles. all this can be substantiated through a little research if you have the resources. what cannot be proven is the story of saying M7 took him out, ask yourself what did he have to gain southern Sudan has never and will probably never be pro Uganda.

    now to matters combat where i am more at home, welcome Mr. Tororo. i feel the need to copy paste Kenya Ace’s post on this issue. If the SU 30s look strong on paper then on paper they have already been beaten. check out the posts above on the counter measures KAF has at its disposal to deal with thee flankers.

  428. TO mr olekoima and Kenya Ace I didn’t post to prove any kind of supiriorty and it not like am trying to down grade Kenya or Tz.( I have huge admiration for both countries esp Kenya since it is near Tororo where I spent some of my childhood and darn I miss UG) But some of the postings here looked like They knew almost nothing about Uganda militarly and politically and that’s what I was trying 2 point out.
    Mr Ace like I said these suhkois have just become The tip of the arrow (and yes, they will be most likely flown by Russian mercenaries while the Ugandans get trained but who says that’s a bad thing? Think Halliburton and executive outcomes who are very effective in what they do), the other part being the migs 21& 23 that were redesigned by the Israelis. So you will be going against a formidable force.
    The SU30s were revied by USAF at red flag and even they contend that to march its capabilities you need an F16 or better aircraft.
    Now some other point mr olekoima, Uganda is not just given instructions on who or what to deal with. Remember them brushing of US and UK to host Gaddafi, Ayitolah Komeni and even the lunatic Ahmedinajad (sp ?) and there is a significant presence of the Chinese in KLA and ooh I had forgotten the North Korean leader Kim ying nam. So I don’t think KLA could have done all “these terrible things” (in the eyes of the west at least) and receive no warning if they didn’t command a certain level of respect from the west.
    Now all am saying is lets come down on all this military might talk because if it were to happen, furniture will get moved if you know what I mean. What Kenya should concentrate on is to find a way to keep itself ahead economically in the region cause who knows that oil money may catapult UG ahead of you there too.

  429. Mr D I really don’t want to get in this Garang Discussion but you are wrong to say that Southern sudan is and never will be pro UG. Garang used to move in KLA freely like he was in juba, it was his haven and SPLA (the reason Bashir decided to also help the LRA) and On my few holidays I noticed his son set up some kind of base there too ( he is friends with my cousin and he practically never leaves ug). To the conspiracy theorists some alleged that Kiri was chosen by M7 ( but this is something am not interested in). S.sudan uses the international code of Uganda to receive calls, I have seen dinka men (we all know how s.sudanese look like) use Ugandan passports, the ugandan shilling was becoming quite popular in s.sudan that the s.sudanese government had to think of creating their own currency recently. So…

  430. Tororo,
    A credible economic analyst was quoted saying that for Uganda to be where Kenya is today,even with petrol dollars,it will be a minimum of 20 years.This suggests Kenya has to hibernate in order for ug to lead in any front.As for the issue of southern sudan,any reliable source will tell you that southern sudan is a creation by Kenya to act as a buffer zone against Northern sudan.We can always attack north through the south if need arises.
    AS for uganda being a threat to us,that will only happpen when a cow gives birth to a hen.it simply will never happen.The necessary apparatus to choke Uganda and set it ablaze are always in place and the scheeme to fly kenyan flag in Kampala has never been far away.Any honest ugandan general will attest to this.The arsenal in Kenya inventory outguns Uganda by a magin of 20 to one.I cant wait for Ug and their arrogant attitude to be compelled that kenya is an easy pick.This is the day when ill strap the boots and bring home one of those stetson hats thats mu7 been wearing.i can put my money on this.

  431. There you go with the denial that I was talking about. Hmm one man Army!?. I based my report on IMF and World Bank statistics and projections of east Africa, who are your sources mr one man army? Denail denial denial……….. It won’t your situation. You either embrace the situation or it will still swallow you. And stop that chest thumping like a little kid, what did you do when UG had troops in Kenya during the election aftermath? I will tell you, NOTHING.
    This is grown Folks discussion now act like it

  432. Galang was taken out by Kenya, “D”, that is what the clutter from Delta4 is all about. M7 had nothing to do with it, infact was doing his damndest to entice Galang away from Kenya, where Southern Sudan has belonged for nearly 40years, and to go with M7 come their Ceasefire with the North. M7 is essentially a war-leader and sees all things from the Zero-sum prism. Did you do your sniffing around your pals in Delta and CDU yet, mate?

  433. Tororo,

    You are poisoning your otherwise mature comments by your answer to ‘one man army’ above. During the post election violence i can’t recall a situation whereby the Kenyan military and that of Uganda were engaged in a confrontation, so let’s leave that out. If indeed the Ugandan army crossed into Kenya, then it was with the full knowledge of Kenyan commander in chief hence expected no response from their Kenyan counterparts.Remember i have said if( read Iff).
    We know that Uganda upgraded her MiG 21s to MiG 2000 bis in Israel ( equivalent to MiG 29 ). We know you have seven ex-Libya MiG 23s too thus it is not right to say we are in denial. We closely monitor all developments in the region so that we develop adequate counter measures.
    As for the Su-30s, we will respond to their threat as well.
    I know you will also say that you have occupied Migingo Island and we Kenyans have done nothing. We prefer to give dialogue a chance first for armed conflict is gravely costly.
    Tororo, in posting these comments we are not targeting Uganda. In fact we Kenyans do not see the possibility of fighting Uganda any time soon. There is a lot we can lose if war breaks out between the two nations. This is also true of Tanzania. Our areas of concern are actually to the North and the East, but we must take precautions nonetheless.
    Kenyan defense doctrine is defensive in nature. This means that we are unlikely to be the ones to start war. We can only be provoked to it and we have adequate capability.

  434. I had the privilege of being deployed in KLA and parts of eastern UG during the post election period, the disruption of supply lines to Uganda was devastating to UG’s economy, remember we are not talking about fuel only here. basic commodities like plastics and other domestic knick knacks from Ug come from kenya. in the venet of war it would be a total shutdown of the Ugandan economy and way of life, think about it even the fiber optic cables essential for exchange of data securely passes through kenya however i doubt if ever there was to occur open hostilies it would be economical.
    Arab Israeli war: the mighty Israeli Airforce was pinned down by superior SAM defences. Fact UG has no way to counter Kenyas superiority in this sector,
    ELM2032 radar: this eye in the sky installed in the F5 has better range and target tracking abilities than the radar suit of the SU30. fact UGs aquisition of SU30s was in fact an attemt to balance this out.
    FACT: UG remains out gunned, out manouvered and out though by Kenya Army in all spheres of groung warfare, armour, artillery, covert ops you name it. you are in fact the one in denial little has changed in terms of military balance in the region.
    i forgot to mention our better trained and equipped navy can and will make better use of lake victoria in the event of war.

  435. i find the comments by “D” interesting and maybe part fiction….you say you were deployed in ug during the post election violence…doing what when kenyans were on fire and on the brink of collapse?

  436. Patrick,
    For a person with apt knowledge on military matters i find your question shallow to say the least. am a soldier mate i dont vote, i dont count votes or supervise elections, in fact i have nothing to do with anything electroral, gee in our squads we dont even vote to see who takes the point an who guards the rear. in short what i am saying is i was doing my job weeks before the elections started and weeks after. remember when we swear allegiance during our passing out its to the office of the C in C not the man sitting in the office.

  437. D” the only fighter planes in the KAF is the F5 the other planes are either trainers or transport planes. Now compare that to UG’s mig 21s and 23/29 (17 in total) which are actual fighter jets then add on the superior suhkois, you find that you are actually out gunned, it would not be a battle for air supremacy here. (u can point out the experience of the Israel and Arab war but Kenyan pilots are not that experienced or that devoted am sorry I have to point that out and like you said they may be going against tough Russian mercenaries)
    The new acquisition in the UG air force by the way just has not raised antennas in the great lakes region alone. Even the western countries are wondering what Uganda intends to do with this kind of aircraft in this region cause nobody else has a weapon as this. The closest competitor would be the SA which uses the JAS 39 Gripen and Egypt that uses F16s as the primary fighter and they have them in great numbers. The other possible air force was the agolian one which uses also SU25/27 and mig 21. Most think tanks were suggesting that ug gets mig 29s which they still considered an over kill for the region (these military think tanks think this region is only fit for a few trainers and world war two fighter jets). So the only solution/ remedy to this would be for Kenya or Tz or congo, Sudan to get something of equal or higher power (there by starting the arms race that every one was afraid of) otherwise as far as the observers and right thinking people are concerned this air supremacy battle is now in favor of ug.
    Mr olekoima, when I spoke of that incidence of UG troops being in Kenya it was not to chest thump but it was for people like army of one who just go around proclaiming how that would be the day he would also pick up a gun. This was to show him that such a thing would happen and he as a civilian would just watch as those military trucks moved right by his front door and he wouldn’t do shit.
    What D said about an economic blockade could well hurt the Ug population but would not greatly affect our infantry. Let me tell you this, those boys marched through the Congolese jungle up to Kinshasa. These are battle hardened soldiers not merely going through some drills because it doesn’t matter how much simulation you do, the real thing is quite different. Ask some marine friends (who go through some realistic training) if you have any.

  438. Precisely my view Tororo. Uganda has provoked an arms race which we were all afraid of.
    Sincerely i don’t see a situation where Kenya, Tanzania and even Sudan will accept to live with intimidating fighter jets next door.They will therefore attempt to go for compensating alternatives and what do we get? a spontaneous arms race which will be hard to stop.Uganda with the advantage of oil wealth might get excited and go a notch higher hence a vicious cycle of arms acquisition.That is not all, there are high prospects of striking oil also in Kenya and Tanzania, in fact TZ has already struck gas thus the neighbours might not be constrained for cash for long.
    One question though is what exactly does UG need the sophisticated jets for? I’ am sure this is the question in the minds of most neighbours who will be bound to respond to this ‘ threat ‘ rather fast on account of suspicion.
    Looking at UGs threat matrix one is left at a loss as to where the Sukhois will fit. They are obviously not meant for Joseph Kony’s LRA while for the neighbours we could say it is only DRC or Sudan which could be of concern, but this countries are currently in chaos and unable to threaten Uganda. The others i.e Kenya, Tanzania and Rwanda are (like Uganda ) members of EAC hence possibility of hostilities with any of them is at present very minimal, but you never know.
    One could have expected UG to( in modernizing her military )strengthen her COIN capability given her security concerns in the north, but choosing to embolden her offensive capability instead will surely have neighbours reeling with suspicion.It does not help matters when UG pursues what is sometimes miss- construed as an expansion tendency.
    All said and done, it will still be difficult for Uganda to win a war on the basis of fighter jets alone. A massive upgrade of virtually everything will need to be done to match the capability of the Sukhois. Attention has to be paid on the air defense capability in order to protect and keep the planes air borne whilst guarding against possible pre-emptive strike from a hostile and threatened country. The sukhoi’s in built radar will be of no use when the planes are in the hangers hence a radar upgrade may be needed too.
    Well we can only wait and see the unfolding scenario.

  439. Tororo,
    First a point of correction on your comments above. The F-5 is not the only fighter plane in Kenya’s arsenal. We have BaE Hawk 52 which in addition to being used for training is also a FGA. The real trainers are the Bulldog and the Tucano. However the Tucano has hard points and can also be used as a light ground attack fighter.
    The MiG 23( ground attack) in Uganda’s arsenal is not equivalent to the MiG 29 as you put it above. It is the MiG 21 which was upgraded to MiG2000 bis and can therefore be said to be close to the MiG29.
    Now my question. What is the source of you data above? You have put the MiG 21s and MiG23s at 17. I thought there were only seven ex-Libyan MiG23s and Six MiG21s one of which crashed in December 2008. Where do the others come from?
    And yes before i forget, the rotary wing tank killers in Kenya’s arsenal number 39 in number i.e 35 MD 500 defenders and 4 WZ-9s with more coming. All these add up to about 70 war planes before factoring in the lighter Tucanos. In effect this is still a formidable force.What do you think?

  440. Tororo,
    You speak as if the arms race was over and Uganda has already won.i have info i am willing to share with you that out of the 7 original MiG 23s only 3 are flight worthy the rest are slowly being cannibalized for parts, the MiG 21s have fared slightly better one did crash in 2008 another in 2003 2 are in reserve having being termed surplus to requirements (that means it is more expensive to keep them flying than servicing them or you dont have qualified pilots) that leaves you with 2 operational Mig 21 at your disposal. now with 3 MiG 23s and 2 Mig 21 BiS against 30 upgraded tiger III with ELM2032 BVR radar am sure you would understand why they were not being factored into the UG airfoce plans and it is for that reason that M7 decided to go for the SU30s its not a mystery its a simple airforce modernization plan. It took the Arabs 20 years to reap the benefits of milions of barrels of oil output a day. UG produces far less its projected oil income would only be able to slightly tip the revenue from kenyan tuorism industry in its first 5 years of commercial exploitation. even then remember you fund slightly less that 60% of your annual budget while Kenya funds 98% of its bugdet. translation…you are far more into debt and before the oil is commercially viable you will need to get into a lot more debt.
    in short kenya’s financial muscle is undeniable in the region even you especially coming from Tororo would have to agree to that.it is impossible to win an all out arms race.

  441. i agree uganda CAN NOT WIN AN ALL out arms race…and we need to be told why M7 is doing this….but kenya must counter this threat at once…all this posturing from uganda must stop…or we are in for a generation of arms races which we do not need now

  442. it would be interesting to hear from you Mr. Tororo how UG plans to counter BUK air defenses Kenya has.

  443. Tororo are you in uniform? If so in which discipline? i would like to have a healthy discussion. i will send you details on your military. counter check them then we debate more on your standings.

    Uganda is no threat to Kenya with 6 Su30MKK. if you are willing to engage let do it in a professional atmosphere. I will send you names and details you will confirm and we shall discuses

  444. Tororo educates himself from links and websites on matters military – he may have served though. See the extent of the readership of this blog? Told you lotsa of Desk-types now poring through it from all corners!!!So lets also play our cards close to our chests, fellas, on details, eh. Kinda sneek in our little bit of smoke & some thunder too, won’t hurt seeing as to how in we are, at least intellectually and in simulation, “on war-mode” with our eastern neighbour.

  445. D, Raissi, Olekoima looks like this maight be my last post cause they more I try to argue my position the more I will reveal myself. I would real love to continue this debate but I can argue my points without getting deeper and deeper into things that are considered classified in UG (Uganda defense is one of high secrecy. Revealing details of even the silliest thing as a patrol could be turned into a charge of either espionage or treason) so I will just follow the discussions without any input. But to answer some question; D about the Radar defense system Uganda previously had a variant of the patriot defense shield built by Israelis that covered mostly kampala and Entebbe (this was leaked by someone else so I don’t hope to take heat for it ever) but people would ask why not the whole country? This was however addressed in 2007. Before confirmation of the common wealth meeting, there were concerns about security. The threat of an air attack from Sudan on western leaders (read the queen and British PM most notably) was a concern and there was talk of them not attending if this security was not secured. As you already know they all attended with even the next in line for kingship. So that will tell you of the developments in that area. (Sorry I can’t reveal what was done.) And well Mr ole nkarei am not getting my information from the internet (by the way does it exist in such detail about ug on the internet?) I would say I get it from the horse’s mouth or should I say am outside the barn.

  446. Tororo,
    I find the line of your arguement quite silly and not worth of my response.For you to sugest that the U.p.d.f was in Kenya during election chaos is to grossly miss the point.If they were here,it means they were invited by someone and were highly masquerading as someone else.What ive said is that if u.p.d.f was in kenya on an aggressive purpose either invading or conducting aggression thus initiating full response of Kenya armed forces,my next re-load position would be on outskirts of Kampala.Iw will be too easy to drive them all the way to kampala.Am not chest thumping or slinging pride here.All i know is war and ive been involved with u.p.d.f and their operations for so long.This is one force that i’ll count out in threat matrix against kenya army.i’ll pose a question to you:Given that the U.p.d.f is proclaimed here by you and others as a battle hardened force,how comes they haven’t defeated L.R.A by either reason or might given L.r.a is an outfit whose only major weapon is a mortar and a few heavy calibre weapons?Do you know how many hours it has taken Kenya army to wipe out such outfits?Last time i checked,any think tank in millitary matters hasd a very positive review of kenya army and a very negative one for u.p.d.f.Do you know how much Ug spends n military budget compared to kenya?Do you even know how up to date the necessary pieces to mount an operation against a modern army and not thugs fall in place for u.p.d.f?
    Let me say this,U.p.d.f which is a political army put together to intimidate helpless population and political opponents lacks heavy bambardment capability,lacks effective transport and mobility,(read foot march to congo} lacks anti armor capabilities,lacks reliable airdefence capabilities,lacks reconnsance abilities,lacks forward offensive abilities and can be likened only to the well overated gumboot army of south sudan or rwanda.They dont count when it comes to a well trained and armed modern force like kenya army.I’d like you to do you home work.

  447. Tororo,

    Whilst sharing your concern, i must point out that most of what we have discussed here is actually in public domain.
    Look all newspapers are awash with this Sukhois story.Does this expose anyone?
    We have equally refrained from discussing the deeper details of the Kenyan military for fear of the same, but some information is readily available from reputable sources like the Janes defense weekly and i feel this does not hurt to discuss.
    Kenyan military is equally secretive. A lot of this do happen behind closed doors and away from the public and the media.
    Feel free to discuss the general information.

  448. Haki ya nani Tororo you are honestly lying to us. You bought the patriot system to defend Her Majesty. Tell me again ndugu yangu Museveni picks up a phone and calls Israel. He tells them that he needs some Patriot missiles. The Israel patriot like is the SPYDER system. a country like India is dying to have this system. Ok let’s continue……Then after a few weeks the missiles arrives in Kampala. After the queen leaves, Israel decided after all its better off if they stayed in Kampala. Sudan to attack the queen and western leaders. That will be a national suicide. the Sudanese citizens will be up into the state house to pull out Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir before the allied amass in the Red sea and surrounding countries..

    Salala !! what do you think this items are merchandised from a supermarket? You need time to train and man them? Give me anther story my friend. at least tell us you brought a Patriot unit on loan for that occasion .

  449. Anyway lets talk what is on the surface and facts.

    I wanted us to discus about the crashed MiG21. I will give you fact you can counter check on your Air force maintenance log books. Second a friend from the U.A.F I would like to have a clean talk. Nothing detailed a yes or no answer. simple questions like…Did the MiG,s radar warning receiver (which actuates when the aircraft is being tracked by fire control Radar) sound alarms every time that MiG tookoff ? yes or no very simple. Do you need the date and timing I can post them if you want.

    I know that this blog is being followed by different EAST AFRICA ARMED FORCES OFFICERS form the comforts of there living rooms and cybercafés. Nothing official but lethal all in all. I also weigh my words. Let’s converse

  450. You are quite right Risasi. I don’t believe Tororo on this patriot story. I read that with a pinch of salt.
    At least i believe him when he says that the radar system only covers Kampala and Entebbe. I don’t think much has changed in this area.

  451. Tororo, it is perfectly ok to be patriotic but don’t lie to individuals that posses the capability to critically analyze every word you said. In a previous posting you said “I have huge admiration for both countries esp Kenya since it is near Tororo where I spent some of my childhood and darn I miss UG” i highlight the “darn I miss UG”n part. Now unless you joined the U.P.D.F a few days after posting that comment i would have a very hard time believing ur fairy tale story on the patriot missile variant.
    In Kenya i doubt if we are living in denial. Here are the facts as i know them. The U.P.D.F has absolutely no experience in waging a conventional war. In fact it is no more than a nationalised guerrilla army. Instead of strengthening the U.P.D.F, the war with the L.R.A has doomed the N.R.A to literary stagnate in it’s metamorphosis to a modern army. In case of a confrontation with an organised and modern army like the Kenya army the U.P.D.F will find it almost impossible to defend it’s bases. This is because in addition to most of the U.P.D.F equipment being known and catalogued by the Kenya(remember they pass through our territory when they are imported) The fact that U.P.D.F is a political army guarantees a healt