Reports in Kenya’s media indicate that the country’s airforce will spend US$23 million acquiring obsolete fighter jets to revamp its fleet.
A Kenya Airforce F-5 fighter jet. Picture by Wikipedia.
According to the Standard newspaper, Kenya will replace its own aging F-5 fighter jets with 15 F-5s being disposed by the Jordanian Airforce. The government will pay Kshs1.5 billion ($23 million at current rates) for acquisition and transportation of the craft from Jordan. The money will also cater for spare parts and the training of Kenyan crews.
The $23 million price tag for used, obsolete fighter craft may raise more than a little eyebrows. Kenya’s economy was badly affected by violence early this year following disputed elections in December 2007. Though the government has pledged to rebuild vandalized properties and to compensate those affected by the clashes, funds are difficult to come by. Government estimates put the reconstruction budget at Shs31 billion ($500 million).
Corruption allegations in government circles may hinder the flow of funds from traditional donor nations. At the same time, uncertainty caused by political wrangling is expected to slow down investment, further undermining economic performance. Rising food and oil prices are hitting the population especially hard, further worsening the effects of poverty and 60% unemployment.
The F-5 fighter jet was developed by Northrop Corporation in the 1950s as a light combat aircraft. During the Cold War, the F-5 proved popular with allies of the United States especially in the developing world. Kenya acquired its F-5 fleet in the 1970s and 80s and probably wants to replace its aging aircraft by acquiring the same model elsewhere.
However, the last F-5 was built in 1989, indicating that the Jordanian jets are at least 20 years old. Airforce top brass are yet to explain why they could not buy new fighter jets that are readily available in the international arms market.
This would not be the first time that a purchase of military hardware in Kenya is causing scandal. An ally of President Mwai Kibaki was forced to resign several years ago, after it emerged that a ship the Navy had ordered was a converted civilian vessel. Kenya’s Police force has also come under heavy criticism for buying oversized, second hand helicopters from Russia, and whose maintenance is becoming very expensive.
Within East Africa, Uganda, has experienced a “junk helicopters” scandal. The government of President Yoweri Museveni bought obsolete helicopters from Russia at above-average prices. One of the helicopters crashed in 2006, killing among other people the new President of Southern Sudan, Dr John Garang.
Filed under: News | Tagged: airforce, corruption, f-5, f5, fighter, fighters, jet, jordan, junk, kenya, kenya airforce, kenya government, kibaki, mwai, nairobi, obsolete
I have a feeling this might spill over into the African commercial aviation market as well especially for the regional airlines.
A lot of tier 1 airlines are shedding their gas-guzzling, aging aircraft for newer, more fuel-efficient ones and it is not a stretch of the imagination to assume where these planes will end up.
I understand the concern for transparency regarding this fighter deal given the history of corruption, especially under Moi.
However, the F-5 is still a front line fighter in service in the air forces of Turkey, Greece, Spain, etc. It has a proven combat history and is less expensive to maintain than modern combat aircraft like the F-15, Tornado or Mirage. Obtaining 15 aircraft with spares for $23 million is a baragain considering one new F-15 costs for that $30 million each. The F-5 is far from “junk.” In fact, the US Air force still has 600-700 in use as trainers.
Kenya needs to upgrade it’s jet fighters but on a budget. It is a strategic country in a growing neighborhood of instability.
i agree with dan – what’s all this about f 5’s from Jordan are crap planes – the f5 tiger is still a force to reckon with – with speeds of upto mach 1.7 -it can rival any fighter jet in the world when dogfighting – ask the swiss and the turks who still have many f 5’s in their inventory – what people need to know is that the Kenyan airforce is buying the latest version of the f5 family which is the f 5em – this version is still the same model as the old ones but with modern avionics – this jets can also refuel midair like the f5em’s of the brazillian airforce – so go kenya get the planes. Yes dan maintaining them is cheaper – and boy can those planes move !!
hey guys we need new stuff from cooking oil to combat planes.the year is 1986 my first time to see our air force f-5`s during ask kapsabet show.it was also the year which the last of this tigers assembling contract was expiring! almost 3 decades down and we still see them.at least the ministry of defence ought to allocate cash to better fighters even if not latest.go for russian mig 23s and others.lets update our forces please.thank you
buying an F5 today as your top fighter is like buying old ford cortinas and peogeot 203 and you expect them to compete with top of the range BMW”s , toyota VX and subaru imprezas. for Gods sake the ethopians and the ugandans are flying the SU27 and MIG23 respectively and we pride ourself that we have an airforce. the truth is our airforce is more geared towards providing V.I.P services to govement dignitaries than being combat ready. thats why the V.I.P section of the airforce has top of the range executive jets ( the dash series ) backed by the Y12.while the fighter section makes do with obsolute F5,s that are almost 30 years old and out of production.
we should learn to change with times. the F5 is outdated and obsolute and if thats what our commanders are ordering for the airforce, it means that their military knowledge is also outdated and obsolute. one shudders to imagine what they are ordering for the other services. it is not a question of money because our neighbours i.e ethiopia and uganda are purchasing better equipment and yet our economy is far bigger than for the two countries. we are just not taking our security seriously.
um… why do we need them again? the only real wars have been civil, so unless we want to light ourselves on fire…
For this reason I think I will be able to live with the fact that we got F5’s instead of some hot shot modern avionic BVR wallet dissolving army candy!
I mean why spend for the latest and greatest? I’m content with the F5’s.
the fact of the matter is that we need to feel secure in our on country and thats why we need a fighter aircraft that can meet the modern challenges of todays warfare. by the way u dont need any modern weapons to do civil war. in the rift valley they were using bows and arrows and in rwandas genocide the most effective weapon was the panga. so we can light ourselves up weather we have modern weapons or not. kenya being the most powerfull country in this region economically also needs to be the most powerfull militarilly. thats why we need 2 have the best fighter aircraft that can outfly anything our neighbours have. our neighbours are busy arming their countries with modern stuff while we are still depending on techonology that went out of production 30 years ago. (F5). THAT DEAL STINKS OF CORRUPTION. and thats why some people are ready 2 compromise our security by buying cheap and outdated stuff for our military.
steve the f-5 is ok. you can imagine that the usa had offered them to taiwan against the chinesse until late 80,s. if they were not worth it wouldn,t that be sucidal. for east africa the f-5 are dam good and the airforce has more the 30 years in dealing with that craft. when it comes to fighter the pilot carry more marks then the planes i.e u can have a sophsticate plain but if ur guys are poorly trained it no good. and training comes with time. in the force they is over 30 year experince with this craft. about the mig 23 i think u meant mig 29. its endurance time to stay in the air is infact lower then the f5. let me enlighten you on tactics. during the ethopia/eretrain war the the ethopia new from the russian that endurance time of the mig 29 was less then the su 27 and mig29 burns tons of fuel during climbing. so during dog fight the ethopians toyed with the eretrian on high low manuevors . the mig 29 ran out of fuel and when they had to turn to base thats when the ethopian nailed them. so tactics of the pilots and training carry more then 60% of a war
These are very old planes ill suited for modern warfare. During the cold war, the F5 was dished out like candy by the US to counter the roughly equivalent Soviet Mig 21, another very obsolute plane. All users of the F5 are getting rid of them (this explains why Jordan is no longer interested in the damn things). The Turks, Greeks, Taiwanese, Norwegians, Saudis, Koreans, Swiss, Dutch, Canadians, Pakistanis, Singaporeans, Spanish, Philipinos etc etc have either fully disposed off these planes or are in the process of doing so. If they are used, it is often for recon, lead in training, targets, etc etc NOT as a frontline fighter. The decsion to purchase these relics is nothing short of bizarre!
risasi, pole i took long 2 answer you. you dont mean 2 tell me you buy out dated equipment then u say u will rely on tactics? yes tactics work but combined with the mordern equipments its even better. the f5 lacks the range, the speed, the radar and even the avionics 2 survive in todays combat enviroment. most combat planes of today have digital multi functions cockpits while the f5s cockpits is dials and many poimter needles, this increases the pilots workload. it is also a fuel guzzler and thus spends very little time in the air and has a limited range. it is an aircraft of yesteryears and i must admit it was good during its day.
Dan, Chalo and Risasi seem to be the only knowledgeable lot to have offered comments on the F5’s. The F5 is still in active service today in the US Air Force and Navy as a tactical fighter. You don’t need to offer comments if you cannot do basic research even on the US Air Force website where factual information is freely available for anyone who’s interested. Someone talked about obsolete avionics not bothering to find out which version of the F5 is being bought! Those who fly or have flown F5’s will tell you it’s still as good as when it was commissioned and when you talk of aged aircraft, B52 Long Range aircraft that were manufactured in 1952 are still in active service in the US Air Force among other equally old aircraft like the Black Bird that was commissioned in 1961 and still in active duty!
I disagree with all these issues about the F5’s being old. What may be old on those planes is only the external frame the avionics weapon systems are all up to date.
Apart from the Oil rich gulf states and the developed world very few countries can afford to purchase brand new and quality fighter planes.So what happens is countries like Israel have come up with ways of Modernizing Old fleets for some countries and i belief thats what has happened with the F5’s
Norway is buying 48 F-35’s at a price tag of 4 billion US dollars. This is a population of 4.5. With or without Nato, they can kanyanga Kenya like mavi ya kuku.
Kenya should buy the swedish jas Grippen!! and give the f5’s to the anti-stock theft unit or askari ”karae”.
Faida gani kununua mitumba when you are living in neigbourhood like ours?
I have never flown nor am i an expert on military jets but i have profound interest borne of unfulfilled childhood dreams. I follow the subject religiously and in my opinion DAN,CHALO & RISASI have goodviews.why are we always reluctant to upgrade our fighter jets inspite of ready threats in our belligerent neighbours who are better equiped?F5s are best left for training fighter pilots
guys i believe we’ve missed the boat by the river.we should ask ourselves why the jordanians are selling those relics.our fighters were bought ages ago,but have never been upgraded,even the avionics.if the country could afford to waste 10 billion shillings on a stupid referendum whose outcome was obvious,then i believe we can modernise our airforce.the operative word here is MODERNIZE not buying junks.by the way another referendum is on the way and it wont be free.get the point?
nasema kitu gani wewe!!! am back from my vacation.
Kenya has added more to its list . Z-9 from china for your information. why Kenya bought the so called relics ? these Jordain aircraft are well maintained and are up to date .they sold them after a confirmation of a supply of f-16 by the US. these birds are just a gap filler before new Chinese jets come along they server the purpose.(or now may be US fightr with Obama in power). they have a mid-flight refuel system upgrade avionic and in board flight system. look around and tell me who has that in east, central and part of south and north Africa.
replace the “dot” with a real “.” i cant paste the website
update yourself maybe we are talking about two different birds:
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_34.html
http://www.patricksaviationdotcom/photos/ricardo.ricjam/19426/
http://www.patricksaviationdotcom/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
http://www.patricksaviationdotcom/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
http://uk.youtubedotcom/watch?v=Hqmwfsh5nes&feature=related
luck you just click below \
update yourself maybe we are talking about two different birds:
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_34.html
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/19426/
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18707/
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqmwfsh5nes&feature=related
http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/ricardo.ricjam/18195/
reply 2 risasi, wellcome back from your vacation, its only 3 three f5″s from the jordanian collection that have mid air refueling and for your infomation kenya does not have airborne fuel tankers. we simply cant afford them and they are not of strategic importance 2 us. so the quetion of mid air refueling does not arise. the chinese z9 is acttually a light utility helicopter with little combat use, they will most likely be used for shuttling top brass around. pls this info is available in the internet for everone to see.
common men its not personal. dot be so tha way…. for inform fighter can perform mid flight refuel among themselve. and also for low buget airforces there avoilable kits that can tconvert their normal cargo plane to tankers and back . Z9 will beused for shuttling top brass around .wats wrong with that? you just want them to stay in th hangers?in wartime they wil be used for logistics shipments.
Guys, I dont mean to rub your noses in the dust, but I gotta hand it to some of you for ignorance. You all ought to read what risasi has given, man knows his thing for sure. But as a Military Man, I can tell you without contradiction that our Armed Forces is without equal in these parts. Our Air force had complete Air dominance at present in the East African skies. Bear in mind what Risai says about the balance of power being tilted to the Pilot than the plane – it works similarly with all ordnance. In Simulations we have repeatedly carried out yearly, on the board though, our Armed Forces are shown to be entrenched in Kampala City within 48 hours of engagement and to wipe out all active organised resistence in Kampala within 72 hours of jump-off from the border!! Ask any military officer who has engaged in our War games at DOD, if you reckon I am blowing smoke.
i have never had fighters perform mid air refuel among them selves, its simply impossible, maybe converting cargo planes might make sense but i we dont have that capability. to answer tom, i like your patriotism an i also belive in my country but in war things are different. never underate ur enemy an dont think ug can be such a walk over, in my estimate war between the two countries can never have a clear winner an might end up being long an costly to both sides. the only advantage we might have over them is to stop their goods passing in kenya, esp oil. having air dominace over them i dont think so coz they are known to fly mig 21 which are equal to our f5s and also mig 23 which are far better than f5. their ground air defence capabilites are also fomidable. their tank force is obsolute consisting mainly T54 an T55 most of which are grounded due to poor maintance, but they have a large infantry force, far larger than ours and most of them are battle hardened. its been nice corresponding with you guys an i finally rest my case an end this correspondence.
we
Wisdom Archived?
Declassified
thanks Tom for the good word you passed across. And for Steve it was a pleasure in the conversation . wish you the best in your endeavors. i like to inform people esp. when matters pertaining military ignorance and second hand info that floats around.i understand due to lack of first hand information people would always create and rely on rumors and hear say to fill in the vacuum. its natural.
what Tom told you is a tip of classified info. and i will shade more light on it and anybody how wish to enlighten himself let him do so. mweneye macho haambiwi tazama.
yes there is corruption in Kenya and the military system. but do you think that the military is stupid or naive in decisions making and procurement? items would be purchased slight above the normal selling price due to kick backs and so forth. but is the staff worth it?.
kDOD does a lot of classified Ops that don,t reach the common mwanainchi and it is in this ops and exercise that deter any large minded neighbor from any act of aggression.they was a time when our western border neighbor was bring alot of trouble? being an immanent guerrilla he wanted to extend his empire to our country? to make the long story short, boys were trained in Libya with intentions of crossing our border in the west into Kenya. to achieve this ambition a package of an anti aircraft system. a radar and missile batteries and guns. was establish by our western neighbor meant to deter the then 82AF. Most of their MiG,s were grounded at this time. do you remember those guys and those days. and ask your self what happened to his ambition. why he change direction and went to Congo DRC to make trouble thereafter . why did in,t he go on to achieve his ambition? .well this what happened . one Sunday evening we sent 2 fighter across the border to test his new acquire air defense system. at around 5:30 – 6:00 pm local time when his solider were queuing up for supper rationing and most of the anti aircraft guns were unmanned , our “Cats” (nick name for F-5 tigers ) flew above them at a very low speed and height that the ground crew could definitely recognize the black,red and green ensigns paintings at the tails of the above air crafts. the F-5,s rolled over and did low speed maneuvers. when they realized what was going on, sounded alarms and scramble to there anti aircraft Guns. the Cats turned and headed back home. no bombs drop no guns fired but the war was over. their radar operators only managed to recognize “clumsy images ” on their screens.. that’s just some of it
Su-27/MiG -23 vs F-5
the Ethiopia Su-27 and Uganda MiG 23 are good in paper. can stay longer in the air and can go a great more distance.it has big engines and can climb and mover fast when need be. but they have a big shortcoming in the air which is virtual to us. they are to big and bulky for any formidable dogfight with a F-5.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-5andF-15.JPEG
they need a large turning radius and without “thrust vectors engines” they can,t out perform an F-5 in a dogfight. the F-5 has one of the best weight to thrust ratio most fighter don,t have and can turn more quicker at short radius then them..i would therefore guess therefor strategy is to hit the F-5 at a distance well before any dogfight.this is KNOWN. tactics to counter such a strategy is also known.
JUNK WARS ???
the F-5 that Kenya bought from Jordan were top in there arsenal. Jordan sold some of its F-5 to Singapore to maintain and upgrade this ones. they then sold them to Kenya after they secured a deal of f-16 and their boys were confidant they could manage the new birds and not like scrap as it has been mention above. this fighters have come in as a bridge before Kenya can purchase and manage effectively a new fighter(normally in a span of 5 years). Chile Singapore Brazil turkey Swiss among many all modifying the F-5 until their airframes were air unworthy and could no longer take it anymore. even as latest F-16 were being procured upgradings of F-5 were going on and by the way these are not poor countries. they also have other aircraft’s in there hangars like Mirages, F-4 etc. why were they doing this ? is it just a shear love for this aircraft?or maybe they have too much to spend? maybe? you tell me. Iran not forget it with all it oil wealth has even add an extra tail to the F-5 and using it despite all it American embargo’s.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/256431/irans_new_saegheh_fighter_enters_service/
now ask your self what is it that this air force generals some in NATO spheres know about F-5 ,that they would only part with it after it physical structure can no longer support it, a last and final resort.why is it that they gave more life to this aircraft. i mean just take any other aircraft put in a digital screen a good radar on its nose ,computers and BVR missile under its wings and use it. so simple not so, but why the F-5?
flight fueling Mr Steve:
about mid flight refueling between fighter has been done since early 1920. this is done by simple pods called buddy tanking pods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Refueling,_1923.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sea_vixens_refuelling_arp.jpg
http://www.sargentfletcher.com/bus_dev/ars_image3.jpg
how do you think the US Navy operates with out KC tanker in the deep sea in case of an eventuality.
first you have to know why we need to refuel a fighter. i guess your answers is to achieve a long distance and time endurance. but this is just part of the story when it comes to tactics.for Evey aircraft to take off it has a maximum take off weigth.this is the amount of load it can take off with.i.e fuel plus ordinance. but the military has managed to go around this.it has been realize that once an aircraft is airborne and extra loading can be done to surpass its designed maximum takeoff weights.therefore with this in mind suppose a max. take off weight of aircraft is 1000kg then an aircraft can be loaded with 900kg of ordnance/weapons and 100kg of fuel just ample for take off. once airborne it can be filled with more fuel for its mission, share tactic Mr. Steve.
below are some of refueling pod that Kenya is considering buying
http://www.sargentfletcher.com/bus_dev/flyer_28_300_bbs.pdf.
http://www.sargentfletcher.com/bus_dev/flyer_34_000_wp.pdf
God willing you will see at this years end jamuhuri Day parade what you tax money has purchased
Wisdom Archived?
Seems like very many Kenyans are ignorant of our airforce ability! Thanks risasi for confirming all those stories my cousin (R.I.P.) in the airforce used to tell me while growing up.
Going thru this debate made an interesting read. I gathered that an upgraded F-5 could match an SU-27?? Why can’t Kenya talk to Turkey? They assemble F-16s am sure we could get a better deal from this NATO partner.-Risasi sema.
Mid-air refuelling for who- is Uganda Kenya’s major threat?? I think not Ethiopia has all it takes in the region we need to mordernise- our economy in 5 years can sustain a modern force. Andy
Yes Mr Andy was out of the office. About the Turkey F-16. In order to purchase them a node from the Pentagon has to accompany it. Although Turkey manufactures these jets the USA still has the right on the END USER AGREMENT.
The F-5 vs Su -27 as in “Kenya vs Ethiopia” the F-5 has high chances of bring down the Su-27.
one thing you have to bear in mind when the Russians were building this aircraft they had they own goals in mind. The prime goal was to encounter the USAF F-15 which has similar dimensions and range. At that moment Russians hadn,t a similar fighter. these two country being superpower ,long range ground and air radars were available to assist these aircraft in shoot down each other at a great distance. That’s when the Beyond Visual Range Missiles were developed. If by any chance they encountered each the F-15 and Su-27 were of the same dimension. This will again go back to the pilots to achieve any credible results. The Russia knew this and to change the balance in a dog fight. they developed the thrust vectors system in there Su-27.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgWU_E-dZno&feature=related
This is changing the direction of the jet thrust to help the fighter turn at a tight angle. Just like a motor Boat with an outboard engine. at this junction the new Su-27 has a great advantage in dog fight then most modern aircraft.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7F8XfSLXHY&feature=related
But bear in mind Dog fighters a rare in the Superpower sphere due to longer range radars, long range missiles and radar jammers .these make fighter fight a great distance apart. All this are tactics and strategies.
During the Iraq wars the Iraqis had good jets will maintained but each time they tried intercepting Allied Fighter, for every one fighter the Iraqis sent to the allied the allied would respond with 3 more fighters other then the one to be intercepted. They could see the iraq airforce take off well before they reach a engagement distances. They would actually contact the Iraqi pilots and tell them “we are six your are only Two would you still wish to engage”. This demoralized the Iraq air force and went out of action until the end of the war. That was the Allied tactics longer range radars to assist there fighters to avoid any eventual dogfight.
Back to our main topic. In the east Africa and Africa as a whole will lark that sophisticated airborne system that would help those bulky aircrafts achieve there potential. a dogfight is the only way that would settle down the scores . The Ethiopia Su-27 looks similar to the Russians Su-27 but lark the thrust vector system. which is again very complicated and expensive to maintain. A malfunction could send the aircraft to the moon or straight to the ground. Therefore with out the thrust vectors system the Mig-23 and Su-27 are bulk and large fighters unsuitable for air to air combat.. According to intelligence report, Ethiopia has 15 Su-27, Uganda has 5 Mig -23, and Kenya has 25 F-5. Work out the mathematics. assuming that all three countries will have the resource to maintain and keep them airborne worthy)
risasai,
increadible videos. tha data on ethiopia, uganda and kenya airforce jets. i believe we have less than 7 functioning f5 and hawker hunters were originaly 30 ? the HH am not sure how many are air worthy tho but am not sure they can fit in modern battle theatres. i have not seen them for so looong even in air shows. i have never been a fun of any chinese product. so to mention the purchase of their jets makes me shiver…its not worth it. go for quality and time tested products. look at the army truck and the Y12 planes ? jeeeez.
Well, with all this jargon going about a 30-year old piece of junk one is left wondering whether we guys are serious about our safety!Mach 1.7! which serious airforce today dons fighters flying this slow manze?And, this days ’stealth’ is the in thing bana, if not, then mue na some reliable radar-jamming system which I can comfortably say,hatuna! It then boils to either having radar poa na junk,or fighterz poa bila radar poa coz we aren’t like kina States or Russia who have both and more.Kenya’s option is aquiring better fighters, kitu ka Grippen au F-16 hata ka these were the ones being bought as 2-nd hand.So those guys mooing about the F-5’s good thrust-to-weight ratio and/or better fuel management as tactics,mmtashtuka!!!! You think the nerds responsible for developing this things hawajafikiria hio story?ditchini that mediocrity coz it has no place near a country’s security issues bana!!!!!!!!
l have been following this discussion very closly,l dont know much about the F;s,Migs…name them.Bt being a private pilot(trainee)n hoping to fly for the Kenya aiiforce sometime something is realiy biting me offf…Cn this small country by the name Uganda bring us down!Hey Risasi,impact some knowledge in me.R you working with the airforce?
Is that a US Airforce/Navy A-10 Warthog in your college? How did it get here? I didn’t know the US military gave donations outside the US?
2 Andy
nime relux . am waiting for guys to Ji_enjoy then niwapashe.
Risasi
it was a school trip to the US,they dont belong nor donated to our college.
which warthogs are patrick and chronicle talking about?
Sorry all,
Patrick left a link to his college website, http://www.skypathaviation.org/.
On the front page is a picture of what I initially thought was an A-10 Warthog. When I asked him about it (above) he said the picture was taken during a field trip to the US and that the aircraft was not in their school compound.
ya seen the bird its A-6 USN intruder/prowler . its a carrier based jet . folding wings. the frame was used for many missions from jet to jet refueling to radar jamming….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KA-6_F-14_DN-ST-87-10386.jpg
The Motto TUKO IMARA ANGANI still stands
Never judge a book by its cover
KAF is still and remains the most prepared Airforce in East and Central Africa despite the few F5
All you need are good pilots and good tactics.
well, this has been the most interesting debate i have read of late. risasi and tom ole nkarei … i strongly believe u are former soldiers (air force and army respectively), therefore i respect what you say. ole nkarei i have read ur blogs on security on other sites, risasi this my firts time to meet you. am abig fan of airforce jets and navy battle ships. never made it to air force nor navy. all those not believing risasi i will encourage you to google “F5″, and see for ur self ! did major mwangi, one time sqd cmnder of f5 retire from KAF ? learnt alot about Kaf during Gichangi and Eshekety period at nanyuki. all the best to KAF guys, we love u !
risasi,
i remember the incident u described above of ug guys at the border. din’t they call u ppl at one time to go and disarm a misfired anti aircraft missile coz their guys couldnt do it ? tell me something about the indian jet fighter going by the name LCA Tejas LSP-02, can’t we buy it as our next generation multi role fighter ?
To
Ernest Komu, on April 9th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Am trying to understand your debate but I am not get a full picture. You mean that kenya should buy a stealth fighter? How many country do you think in Nato have stealth technology let alone the third world countries and oil rich states? About march 1.7 that the maximum speed the jet can attain but its not practical in a normal fight.
1. the fighter will burn off it fuel very fast.
2. turning at these distance incase in a dogfight the pilot will encounter very high “G” force (more then X10 gravitational pull) that the pilot will definitely black out.
About Grippen au F-16, the f-5 are bridging gap for a procument of either Chinese Fierce Dragon or Vigorous Dragon.
About the thrust to weight ratio and fuel this is not commercial based but an aspect of the f-5 that has made it loved by many.
Risasai,
Noticed that the unit cost of one Chengdu J10 (vigorous dragon) jet fighter is $28 million USD i.e (2008 exchange rate) but $41 million USD (export version, with parts and maintenance) well it looks tough but isnt also still under testing ? the JF-17 THUNDER (CHEN FC-1) aka FIERCE DRAGON unit cost is US$15-20 million (estimated) but the J10 is described as a 4th generatin jet while the JF-17 is a 3.5 generation plane. but really how good are these chinese jets ?
To
Patrick, on April 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Its good to join the airforce make so hours. It thinks in your blog your asking how Ug could harass us.
But I will tell you something
1.This is the first time Ug has achieved a full military scale Force. i.e a functioning AF and ARMY at an almost professional standard. They might get trigger happy about it.
2. This is not the first time our neighbors have claimed our boarders as I know.
During Mzee time. Amin claimed up to Naivasha at the same time Tz claimed up to likoni Mombasa and Somali claim the north part all at once. Now do you see any similar Political environments within our country at that time and this time?
To
microprocessor, on April 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm Said:
LCA Tejas LSP-02 is still an experimental based aircraft. It would not be advisable to buy them at this stage. Let them get airborne and have its on track record. Kenya will always buy products with a reputable track record like the T-72 tanks which the public is not fond of were the Tanks that would have lead an invasion of the Soviets into Europe during the could war. You can imagine the dediction employeed by the soviets at that time.
Such mistake of buying new products have been made by countries like Zimbabwe AF when it purchased Chinese prototypes Mig 21 after it was placed under embargo from the west and could not operate its Hawk jet. The Mig 21 failed to deliver during Congo war. They secretly asked Kenya to purchase Spares for there Grounded Hawks being similar to KaF ones because.
those who are trying 2 compare SU27, to the F5 are simply day dreaming. the SU27 was meant to compete with the F15. the su27 is superior and is armed with BVR missles (r27) among other missles that r far superior than the sidewinders that the F5 carrys.todays dogfights is more f tecnology than pilots tactics. risasi pole sana wen u argue 4 the F5. THE F5 HAS NO PLACE IN TODAYS AIRSPACE. IT BELONGS TO THE MUSEAM. BRING IT ON, AM READY TO ARGUE WITH FACTS.
PLS LET US NOT FIGHT TODAYS WARS WITH YESTERDAYS WEAPONS.
Since I don,t have enough time on my hands, today I will answers microprocessor. Tomorrow I will be on Airforce one,s case. The name suggest he might have been in the airforce so I expect more solid facts and a sensible agument.from you Mr Airforce one, Brace your self
. I like to hammer in all the fact and leave no doughts. Sawa?
In you Blog Mr microprocessor you mentions Kenya has only 7 F-5. Now add the 15 f-5 that we are all debating about procured from Jordan. Plus 3 which need some maintenance. To add on this are 12 Hawk Bae. Which are used as a light attack aircraft.
About the hawker hunter , they were sold to Zimbabwe. One remains in store as a souvenir
http://www.ourstory.com/thread.html?t=355326
initially Kenya had more then the 7 F-5 you talking about i.e 5 F-5e(single sitters) and 2 F-5F(double sitter) .it had 12 F-5E and 3 F-5F most of them were lost in crushes. This was mainly because these were the first supersonic jets they had acquired. And the boys were excited about the speed. That was on the surface. But to declassify more, intelligence reports posed that we were indeed at a war. A nearby country was sponsoring the boys to crush them deliberately so as to reduce them numerical. When this was suspected one of the airforce high chief borrowed a page from the Israelis. During the isreali/arab war isreali pilots were so scared of the Arabs Surface To Air missile that they ejected when they merely so smoke coming from the missile launches. They didn,t wait for the missiles to lock on their aircraft , they just ejected. Therefore a pilot fastening lock system was device to lock the pilots to avoid them to ejecting, Kenya also did that for some time until guys complained about it. Our pilots if you heard back then could not eject from the fighter if anything happened.they were locked to the cockpits You must have heard about that. the system has now been reversed. Mambo ni mengi nduguzaguni.
Mr microprocessor
Our Chinese Stuff:
One thing you ought to know is that under the table the Chinese and the west trade a lot. They just fool us in believing that there are enemies. And if they will ever fight they trade will still go on still. lately The Germans have supply submarine engine for the to Chinese Submarine, some thing that you will never hear in the local daily.
Back to the ball of contention. As I told you Kenya always buys equipment with a solid track record, lets start with equipment that you familiar in.
1. The Chinese trucks called STEYR.
http://sinotrucks.net/en/quanqu1.asp?ClassCode=19
(right corner)
Bought by the army to replace the Mercedes 911 trucks
This is a license-built version of the Austria Steyr truck used by N.A.T.O for logistic. Very reliable very strong
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Suisse/vehicules_a_roues/Steyr_heavy_truck/Steyr_heavy_truck_pictures_gallery.htm
2. The Chinese Harbin Y12.
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/1/1/0514113.jpg
is a Chinese military built version of the twin otter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plane_arrival_at_Barra_Airport.jpg
made by De Havilland Craft, the same company that manufactures the Buffalo. The Y 12 uses Canadian Pratt & Whitney engines
3. The Chinese Harbin Z-9 Chopper.
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/16954
It is a license-built version of the French Eurocopter Dauphin,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dauphin_2.jpg
Anther NATO product
4. The following proposal:
a. J-10 Vigorous Dragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:J-10a_zhas.png
Was a improved version of an Israeli F-16. the Lavi.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/lavi2.jpg
the Americans simple told the Israelis to halt the program as it would “interfere” with the American/Israeli military aid. The Israeli sold the blue prints to the Chinese and are closely behind its developments.
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/31/world/israelis-decide-not-to-construct-lavi-jet-fighter.html
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/April_2007/0704042.html
b.the FC-1 Fierce Dragon
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/gallery/fc-1_28.htm
is a joint program between the Chinese and the Pakistanis.
They reengineered a Pakistani F-16. the F-16 that the Americans sold to Pakistanis could not march the India airforce they were simply toys. Pakistani was under an embargo for testing a nuclear bomb.so they could not upgrade them. together with the Chinese they copied the F-16 and improved all its short comings.
http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/soc.culture.usa/msg09103.html
I can guess your next question. And the answer is we simple can’t afford the original versions but we still need standard and proven equipments.
good day.
i hope Mr Process i have answered ur question on how good are this stuff.
Well, i will take that for now. dint know the jordanian planes are already here ? thot the deal is still being worked upon. the army track has already killed many tho, and i thot i read that the y12 has some missing essential facilities and that is why we lost akina dr bonaya godana ? did we already buy the z9 kwani ? a firend of mine lost his cousing to those chineese plane…he has been bitter that they could only bury his ear ! i hope we can afford and maintain those chineese jets ! kns jasiri…fishing boat or real battle ship ? i have seen many of its photos…looks tough tho.
Sorry about your friends tragedy. Crashes and accidents are some time inevitable. even the first world nations do suffer from accidents and air crashes. You cannot fly an aircraft with missing essential parts. I wonder which part those are. Y12 has proven itself and 10years since it was procured its still flying. I think it’s a good record, a single fatal crash although none would have been better. Below is a composed article on KNS JASIRI MOMBASA.
ok airforce one tell me why yout think the f-5 can,t take down a Su27
KNS JASIRI MOMBASA:
http://elrincondelinternauta.blogspot.com/2008/08/jasiri-mombasa-corrupcin-y-mejillones.html
http://www.pbase.com/acnielsen/kns_jasiri
The Kns Jasirir is the third Military ship that has be bought from Spain by Kenya, unlike the popular rumor; it has never been fishing or a civilian boat. It belonged to the Agencia Tributaria of spain which is similar to the US Coast guard in charge anti smuggling and drug traffic.
its sister ship in action.0:23, 1:23 seconds in the clip
After it was bought it was taken to a Spanish company which builds commercial ships for hull stretching to 85meter and Refit some basic marine electrical system on the extended area. It will be mounted with various weapons systems from reputable European companies. This is not the first time Kenya has done this. Kns Nyayo/Umoja which was built in Britain by Vosper Thornycroft , has a cocktail of weapons from different reputable European companies other then Britain the country that built it. this includes Its navigations and communications system from the Netherlands Signaal, its Fire systems ;76 mm oto melara super gun (used by almost all NATO frigates) and its Otomat/Teseo Missiles from Italy among many.
It’s a common practice.
KNS NYAYO (right) and KNS SHUJAA participating in India’s International Fleet Review Mumbai India .
http://forum.apan-info.net/Spring_01/photo_pages/01-0447.08_2.html
See the comparisons
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=888256
http://www.pbase.com/acnielsen/image/78367213
KNS NYAYO/UMOJA
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6149/p0114357jj3.jpg
Nyayo and Umoja are 20 year old Corvette and still have no match in the eastern side of Africa expect from Egypt, South Africa navy of late and
American and French Djibouti-based ships.
Am surprised in Europe citizens are campaign for their countries not to go to war but its reverse in Africa Esp. Kenya.
see for yourself the so called fishing boat
jasiri class sister ship Fulmar 1
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.telecable.es/personales/sva/Fotos/Fulmar%25201/index.html&ei=1lUMSt3rJpTNjAew1s2zBg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfulmar%2B1%2Bsva%26hl%3Den
Thanks for the info Risasi. Does anybody know the fate of KNS Jasiri? I read somewhere that the authorities are keen on having it delivered to the country save for a few bottlenecks such as cost which have skyrocketed to Ksh6 billion up from the original 4 billon.
well well i have followed this conversation for a while now and i like what risasi has been saying about our inventory in the military – the Kenyan inventory is one of the best in africa – however some guys have complained about us buying alot of chinese military goodies -apart from them being cheaper they are also well tested over time – you should see what mugabe got from them as well as the sudanese – i watched an exclusive video about the chinese military and what they have and upgrading and seriously will as kenyans have a miltary partner to look up to for a very long time.
Thanks chalo for the compliments, I say now that Mr. Kenyatta has given cash to kDOD its all kudos, keep popping up once in a while to be up dated. As for Olekoima the deal on the “fishing boat” is still on .a lots of negotiations are still going on. The problem come when they was a breach of contract between Kenya and euromarine. We all know what happened. Somebody somewhere called it a scandal and funds were halted for its development. To make the matter complicated Sri Lanka became interested in the boat and were willing to cough more. Anyway those are by goners now.
Hey Major Tom what’s kDOD’s verdict on the new India military trucks? When is there E.T.A? By the way do you know Col. Kisoso. He is from your area I guess.
What happened to those fellow bloggers who were drum beating for Su’s and Mig’s against the F-5. Has the trail run cold?
Gentlemen, we have a situation, Somali !!!!
Your take please. i think we should hold our horses first as we go about rebuilding our arsenal on land, air and the sea. these fellows have nothing to loose coz dying as a bomber gurantees them “7 virgin ladies in paradise”. Are we ready/prepared to take on these fellows ? a friend reckons they give ethiopians a rough time, i thot the ethiopians walked away to give AU fellows a chance? my fear is immigration and police have already sold us out to these ppl via eastleigh…right inside the capital city. they can do whatever they want whenever they want. Are we ready really ? retired Lt-Gen Nkaissery quoted last week concerning corruption destroying our preparedness as far as equipment is concerned … so, what to do ?
I hear from a relatively reliable source that Kenya was given \acquired cheaply 32 Chinkooks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cTFqOCJhhA and 8 F-15 fighters from the US..Also in the arsenal is 300km range missiles..Does anyone have this info??…Doesnt this tilt the regional balance of power..Should we expect a arms race in East africa since this effectively neutralises Ethiopia who were the only formidabble force??…Isit true that Kenya has a reserve force of more than 500,000 soldiers??
Chances of Succes in Somali by Kenya Forces are high. The ability and the Know-how is there. To do this it requires a Peace keeping ++ or rather a Peace enforcing mission. Similar to the one sent to Sierra Leone by the ECOMOG and mainly the small
Guinea Armed force. I know by now your saying the Americans tried and lost but I will explain our advantages as you read more. Most Somalia’s have benefited from Lawlessness in there country in one way or other and returning them to a normal and peace life isn’t a small task. It’s denying many a way of life. It will not be ready accepted.
To achieve this, a Trophy prize exist in the name of Mogadishu. He who controls the capital calls the shots. More or less. That fair, I hope it will remain that way. I feel this will elude us from any Guerilla like warfare or insurgences. Which sends many military confrontation in circles.
To achieve this two things need to be considered.
1. The occupant
2. The Host
The Occupation force.
To maintain peace or achieve peace for Somalia, a good Armor and Air Calvary battalions are needed. At the moment, Kenyans Armor Battalions are at there best. The Air Calvary is there. A well shielded ground force with an effective air support from a Calvary battalion is the key word. Therefore in paper it can be done spectaclly. But the mentioned equipments need to be compensated for. These are weapons meant to defended the Kenyan Sovereignty bought by the Kenyan tax pays. Therefore the big question is not how it will be done but who will finance operation. There several choices. The Kenya tax payers, the Somalia republic, the United Nation , AU or well wishers.
If the United Nation is involved then a second army mainly a western nation will have to be there. The U.N will never trust an African country with an open United nation Check. On the other hand the Somalis have a negative perception of the west and this will taint our image. I will explain this latter. As for the AU and the Somalia government they don’t have the supporting cash for the Operation. Let’s hope this will changes. The Well wishers are good financer but there funds can stop prematurely with change of government policies.
The Host.
The host nation holds the silver bullet. There perceptions towards the foreign army? This is where Kenya has a big Plus over many. unlike the Ethiopian which fought the Ogaden war against Somalia, Kenya has never had direct military confrontation with Somali and Our armed force which are drawn from different corners of the nation have Somali speaking soldier. This includes high ranks offices present and past among them are former Army commander like Lt. Gen Aden who can speaks Somali. In general Somalia public is likely to see us as a brother rather then a foe. An Arbitration force rather then an occupying one. And this is the perceptions that Ethiopians, the West and US can not make up for.
The Somalia’s in general see them as invaders. The ability to winning the hearts and mind of the people will give us a leading edge over many militaries and equipments . But if we mix our military with other force for any reasons what’s so ever it’s very likely that our impression can end up tainted.
Let’s wait and see what C.G.S and the defense staff has to say. If the boys will have to go in yes some boys will never come back and some will come back differently. but Inzi kufa juu ya kidonda ni kawaida. That’s there Job.
Abc The clip seen is an Exercise EDGE MALLET. The helicopter used are not Chinooks but US Navy phrogs ch-46. 32 Chinooks that’s quiet a handful for Kenya. This are twin rotor chopper which require a high quality of maintance. If they were to come they would be In batches.
For the F-15 strike eagles I highly dought. The USAF maintains a high confidential Proliferation of it is second best striker after the F-22 .its only been issued to 3 of its allied. Israel which is obviously, Saudi as a “thank you note” for there Oil, Japan there biggest and best ally in the far-east. Countries like South Korea, Australia, have all been excluded. its unlikely Kenya is joining The quartets.
The 300km missile, there was a proposal of an India one but it was latter shelved. The only missile that can come close to that range is in the navy but it’s a ship to ship missile with a large warhead. Its latest version has a GPS capability which means it can hit a stationary 50meterX 50 meter target at sea or land within its range.
The arm race is an open secret. Etopians acquired hardware from N.korea , Uganda got some from s.africa and Libya we are still waiting for a Tz contribution.
0.5 million reservist I don’t know where that presenter got that figure. +50 thousand close enough if the G.S.U, A.P ,N.Y.S and resigned staff was to be included.
Abc,
Like Risasi, i also doubt that we can be given the F-15 srike eagle. Very few countries have this plane. The F-16 is more likely to get. May be Kenya should try buying the Jas-39 Gripen from Sweden or the JF-17 Thunder from China although i believe the upgraded F-5 Tiger still serves us well enough. I think the country should consider a few more helicopter gunships. It appears they are phasing out the current MD500 defenders perhaps due to age. I notice from Wikipedia that Kenya has acquired an unknown number of self propelled 152mm Nora B-2s from Serbia and 4 Z-9 helicopters from China.
Thanks for echoing my words Olekoima. Like I said the Armor Battalions are now at there very best since our independence. The country’s military Arms are being balanced out. Our deficiencies in APC/IVF and ground to air defense systems, are now being compensated for. Not mentioning that, the existing ones are being improved. For a country whose G.D.P comprises of selling roasted coffee beans, tea leaves and tourism its Kudo,s.
If you look at African countries (militarily). of those which we can consider to be in a “same league”, we are ok. Look at the militaries Inventories of Cameroon, Nigeria, Ghana, S.Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Chad , e.t.c. visa vie ours, our quality and reputations and equipments are well above the 80% mark in most faculties.
They could be having equipments which we don’t but our military is generally balanced.
For Sub Saharan African we have a top number. That is fair enough.